Talk:Falling from Grace (film)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fallinggraceposter.jpg

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BetacommandBot 07:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

unexplained edits and others

With this edit on 5 May 2022 at 21:34, QuasyBoy (talk · contribs) added uncited claims to the infobox, moved about parameters therein, removed wikilinks, deleted some of the lede, and changed cited facts under the edit summary of "Minor clean up." I removed the uncited claims, updated a source, repaired the sourced and cited claims, replaced the lede prose and wiki-linking, and moved some bits about IAW MOS:LAYOUT, all of which was explained in my edit summary.

In contravention of the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, the same day at 22:29, QuasyBoy reverted every change I made, saying only, Infobox edits per film poster, redlink for actor only links here and "it was met with more positive reviews than not", sounds very unencyclopedia-ish, especially for the opening sentence.

• First of all, the purpose of the infobox is to summarize the cited material in the article. If the information that QuasyBoy has added to the infobox can be cited to reliable secondary sources, the process is: (1) add sources and prose to the body of the article, then (2) copy those factoids into the infobox.
• Secondly, Wikipedia:Red link says "Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on that subject." Larry Crane was listed in the prose because the British Board of Film Classification considered him among the film's principal actors, and the link was added after a brief internet search appeared to evidence sufficient material that "an article should be created for the topic because the subject is notable and verifiable." (WP:REDLINK)
• The phrase "it was met with more positive reviews than not" is clear, concise, and scarcely embellished. At worst, it could be argued that "it received more positive reviews than not" is marginally less florid, but the original prose was hardly very unencyclopedia-ish by any measure.

Furthermore, QuasyBoy made many other changes that went unexplained. The {{use mdy dates}} variable was changed back to February 2022 from May. The phrase "Rotten Tomatoes showed a 78-percent positive view" was changed to "Rotten Tomatoes showed a 78% positive view" in contravention of MOS:PERCENT. The citation for the length of the film was removed from the prose. The source formatted with {{cite BOM}} was changed from dead to live, despite https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt2186315265/ giving the error "The requested page was not found." The category Country music films was added, despite neither the prose nor sources describing the film as such. The Films shot in Indiana category similarly has no basis in the cited sources.

I don't wish to incur the wrath of this other editor. If anybody could explain to me their edits, convince them to discuss IAW the WP:BRD cycle, or even mediate our edits, I would absolutely appreciate it. Thanks much, — Fourthords | =Λ= | 23:19, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Fourthords (talk · contribs)

• For the infobox edits that I made, I was simply taking information from the film's poster with the producer, cinematographer, film editor information etc, which is pretty customary for almost every film article on Wikipedia. Would it be really necessary to add a reference after each person's name?
• As for de-linking Larry Crane's name, going by his IMDb page, he is not a very notable actor, his name was only Wikilinked in this article. If he had more than six acting credits to his name and was linked in more Wikipedia articles, I would've left it alone.
• "it was met with more positive reviews than not" sounds like something a fan would write. If you want to highlight the film's positives reviews, just say "the film received generally positive reviews" and mention it further in the article not in the opening sentence. QuasyBoy (talk) 23:49, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

For the uncited additions, the policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability says, "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. […] Attribute all quotations and any material whose verifiability is challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." As for where to source such, MOS:IB concedes that it's technically acceptable to place the citations there, but prose in the article body is the preferable place to do so.

I don't agree that Mr. Crane "certain[ly …] should not have an article", but that's of lesser concern than the wholesale removal of his name when the cited source lists him among the principal performers in the work.

The phrase it was met with more positive reviews than not and the film received generally positive reviews convey the same information equally professionally. Either is perfectly acceptable, though changing one for the other seems unaccountable. Removing the information from the lede altogether has absolutely no rationale that I can see.

Since you're here discussing, now, I'm going ask again: (1) why was {{use mdy dates}} reverted by three months, (2) why is your edit discordant with MOS:PERCENT, (3) why shouldn't the length of the film be cited, (4) do you see https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt2186315265/ as a live source, and (5) why was the article categorized in non-compliance with WP:CATV? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 00:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC) P.S. In the future, needn't link participants' userpages et al. when it's literally the most-recently linked preceding text on the page; I only linked yours in my initial paragraph because it wasn't already present on the page for other editors.

Instead of continuing to discuss their edits, QuasyBoy has added an entirely unreferenced new section, created two additional one-sentence sections, and not addressed any of the previous changes they introduced and were being discussed above. If anyone can help me understand the edits and non-discussive actions of this editor, I'd really appreciate it. I'm wary of making reparative edits and drawing their ire. Thanks all, — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:28, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Autumn 2023

Continuing to disregard this talk-page discussion, QuasyBoy has again added uncited material to this article in contravention of Wikipedia:Verifiability on 26 October 2023 at 06:13 UTC. I removed this material 11.05 hours later, saying (in part), - uncited claims. This user then replaced their claims 15 minutes later, saying, Nothing wrong with mentioning the film producer, editor and cinematographer in the infobox. Go to any other Wikipedia film article and you will find that information. Your'e [sic] veering into WP:OWN territory here.

I don't understand what they mean by "nothing wrong", when Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research clearly explain what's wrong. I also disagree with the application of policy equalling a violation of Wikipedia:Ownership of content; that policy says, you should not undo [other editors'] edits without good reason, and I would think that the core content policies of the project would constitute 'good reason'. Anybody's assistance in explaining/understanding this other user's edits and accusations would be greatly appreciated! — Fourthords | =Λ= | 17:46, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

In accordance with Wikipedia:Verifiability, I've removed the material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material [which] should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:21, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

It's quite amazing that you point to this rule and that rule, to negate your ownership of the article. This is what the article looked like before you hijacked it: [1], outside of the long plot summary and the unnecessary table for the cast, the structure of the article is no different from any other film article on Wikipedia. You also revert any little edit that anyone makes on the article that is unsatisfactory to you, keeping the article exactly the same for nearly three years now. I have no other choice than having to report you to an administrator for your actions. QuasyBoy (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

It's quite amazing that you point to this rule and that rule, to negate your ownership of the article. Your amazement aside, applying the policy instruction of, "Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed", may be done to any article, including those previously edited by the same contributors. This is what the article looked like before you hijacked it Firstly, that isn't an appreciated accusation. Secondly, you're correct: after 15.66 years of existence, this article was 97.44% uncited before I rewrote it with 100% cited verification to reliable sources as required by policies. You also revert any little edit that anyone makes on the article that is unsatisfactory to you, keeping the article exactly the same for nearly three years now. Excepting yours and my back-and-forth, which is documented on this talk page, fifteen registered accounts and one IP-user have made edits to the article since my rewrite in 2020. Of those, I reverted six IAW policy for adding uncited material (which all later returned to the article once sources were provided and cited), and one over six characters IAW the manual of style. This article and this article are not exactly the same, and that's thanks to the contributions of ten other editors aside from ourselves. I have no other choice than having to report you to an administrator for your actions. Okie-dokie; if you need my input as part of that process, please let me know! — Fourthords | =Λ= | 05:12, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

There was no reason to completely delete the plot summary that was previously there, a small concise summary wold have sufficed. I've never seen Falling from Grace, but I think the fact the film is not very popular, you are taking advantage of that with your domination of the article. If the film was relatively popular you wouldn't be getting away with this. Wikipedia is collaborative website, if there is uncited material in the article, if it is not too egregious, add a maintenance tag and move along. I will contact an administrator or another Wikipedia higher up to properly mediate this situation very soon. QuasyBoy (talk) 15:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

There was no reason to completely delete the plot summary that was previously there Previously, 70.77% of the article was plot synopsis, which ran contrary to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction, which says, "The length of the prose should be carefully balanced with the length of the other sections, as well as the length of the story itself". It's now 14.15% of the article's prose and cited to a reliable source. I think the fact the film is not very popular, you are taking advantage of that with your domination of the article. If the film was relatively popular you wouldn't be getting away with this. I'm "taking advantage" and "getting away with" enforcing policies because this is a low-traffic article? Be that as it may, if this were a high-traffic article, I wouldn't need to keep an eye on it because it would have a reliable flow of many experienced editors who're all making sure that uncited material isn't added or kept. I didn't seek out a low-traffic article to own; I found an article that was in bad shape because it was low-traffic, and after bringing it to par, I've just stewarded it to prevent back-sliding. Wikipedia is collaborative website, if there is uncited material in the article, if it is not too egregious, add a maintenance tag and move along. That is one option, but when there're over 630 thousand such tags already in place, and some of them are 14% older than many of our productive contributors, I rely on Wikipedia:Verifiability to improve articles with a modicum more expediency: "Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed". I will contact an administrator or another Wikipedia higher up to properly mediate this situation very soon. Given your consternation with my application of the verifiability policy as written, you may have success at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 17:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

%

Rotten Tomatoes reviews are frequently, if not nearly always, given with the % symbol, rather than the words "-percent", and the Wikipedia Manual of Style stipulates that either is acceptable. I suggest we use % in this article for consistency's sake. OGBC1992 (talk) 21:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

That's correct: the manual of style allows for either in non-scientific/non-technical articles.

As for consistency, the only prescription I'm aware of is MOS:VAR, which says, Sometimes the MoS provides more than one acceptable style or gives no specific guidance. The Arbitration Committee has expressed the principle that 'When either of two styles is acceptable it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change.' [Footnote: See ArbCom decisions in June 2005, November 2005, and 2006] If you believe an alternative style would be more appropriate for a particular article, discuss this at the article's talk page or – if it raises an issue of more general application or with the MoS itself – at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. Now, I don't understand how readers are benefitted in specifically reading about Falling from Grace with a symbol instead of a word, but I'm certainly willing to hear your rationale. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Just my two cents, but I think the symbol % is more appropriate. Just off the top of my head, I don't think I have ever seen it spelled out like that in a film article, it looks weird. Isaidnoway (talk) 🍁 10:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The allowance of "%" in non-technical articles is only 6.2 months old, and only 103 days old when the above discussion began, so every film article should've been using "percent" or "per cent" before then. Given that history of longevity, MOS:VAR, and MOS:NUM compliance at the time it was written, I don't think changing it would suit readers or editing SOP. I could certainly be wrong; if consensus is that the outright changing of words to symbols is now shown to be less obfuscative to readers, I'm definitely sanguine to a change. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

In comparison, these top films of 1992 - A Few Good Men, Batman Returns, The Distinguished Gentleman, Home Alone 2, The Last of the Mohicans, 3 Ninjas, The Muppet Christmas Carol, Encino Man, White Men Can't Jump, Reservoir Dogs, The Bodyguard, Wayne's World, A River Runs Through It, My Cousin Vinny, Terminator 2, Howards End, Scent of a Woman, Unforgiven, Bram Stoker's Dracula, The Crying Game, Aladdin, Sister Act, Alien 3, The Hand That Rocks the Cradle - all use the % symbol, and have for at least the last 10 years, according to their article's histories, so the usage of the symbol has been allowed for quite a long time, despite what that "6.2 month old" discussion says. Like I said, it looks weird to me that this article is the odd man out, and the usage of "percent" hasn't been in this article very long, so I plan on changing it. Isaidnoway (talk) 🍁 15:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Sources

@Fourthords and QuasyBoy: -- Here are some newspaper sources if you want to expand the article: film reviews, soundtrack reviews and soundtrack background, and a couple of small interviews with Mellencamp that might help with production/background section. You can get the info for the cites from the clippings (title and byline), and to the right of the clippings (newspaper and date).

• 1 (music)
• 2 (film review)
• 3 (film review)
• 4 (film review Roger Ebert)
• 5 (film review)
• 6 (film review)
• 7 (film review)
• 8 (film review)
• 9 (film review)
• 10 (music)
• 11 (music)
• 12 (interview)
• 13 (interview goes with #12)
• 14 (music)
• 15 (music)
• 16 (interview)

Excerpt below from interview, only the part pertaining to the film: Cromelin, Richard (10 November 1991). "10 Questions: John Mellencamp". Los Angeles Times – via Rock's Backpages.

I made this film, right? ... I directed the film, and it was just like being on tour. I mean it was exactly like being on tour. You have these artists — these musicians, these actors. You have this crew, this road crew. And they all have to ask questions. It was exactly like being the leader of a band ... I had directed a lot of videos. I wasn't surprised by anything, I couldn't say [making the film] was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, but it wasn't one of the worst things. Sometimes I watch the film and I think, "It's not too bad." Sometimes I watch it and can't stand to look at it.

Isaidnoway (talk) 🍁 10:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Some more sources:

• Taylor, Charles (July 17–23, 1992). "Fallen Angel". The Boston Phoenix. Vol. 21, no. 29. p. 8.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)
• Whitburn, Joel (1998). 1992 Billboard Music Yearbook. Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin: Record Research. pp. 47, 222.
• Smoyer, Mark (July 10–16, 1992). "Next Weekend: State of Grace". The Boston Phoenix. Vol. 21, no. 28. p. 5.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)
• Taylor, Joann (September 1992). "Falling from Grace available 9/30". Video Review. In Tune Magazine. p. 33.
• Morris, Chris (March 14, 1992). "Falling from Grace directed by John Mellencamp and starring John Mellencamp and Mariel Hemingway". On Screen. Billboard Magazine. Vol. 104, no. 11. p. 76. ProQuest 226981257.
• Travers, Peter (March 5, 1992). "Falling from Grace written by Larry McMurty and starring John Mellencamp". Movies. Rolling Stone Magazine. No. 625. p. 78. ProQuest 220158631.
• Britton, Bonnie (February 21, 1992). "'Grace' is amazing for $3 million film". The Indianapolis Star. p. B1. ProQuest 240002882. Falling From Grace cost only $3 million, far from the $20 million movie envisioned when Mellencamp's friend McMurtry spent a week with him 10 years ago in southern Indiana and then followed up with the script that went to four studios before filming began under the Columbia banner in 1990.
• Britton, Bonnie (March 23, 2003). "Scenes of Indiana: A Hollywood tour of Hoosier locales spans the state". The Indianapolis Star. p. K1. ProQuest 240591557. "Falling From Grace" was shot in Seymour, Mellencamp's hometown ... some of the locations that were used include Memorial Hospital, Jay's Market, Seymour Country Club, Dakota Ridge Restaurant, the Crane home, the Rok-Sey Rink, and the Southern Indiana Center for the Arts, which is home to the only permanent exhibit of John Mellencamp paintings.
• Britton, Bonnie (May 24, 1992). "`Natural Reaction' is to like movie, but no one at Cannes festival is buying". The Indianapolis Star. p. G2. ProQuest 240076978. John Mellencamp's made-in-Indiana movie Falling From Grace hasn't totally fallen from screens. Columbia Pictures, the movie's owner and distributor, released Mellencamp's $3 million film to only a few cities in February. Columbia couldn't be persuaded to launch a national release, so the movie is "touring" the country this summer, aided by radio stations promoting "sneak previews" as the only way to see the rocker's film ... "We're hoping to take it to upwards of 100 cities," said Dave Loncao, the singer's co-manager. After movie critics Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert gave the film high marks on Arsenio Hall's TV show, "Theater owners began calling Columbia. And if they asked, Columbia gave it to them," Loncao said.

Isaidnoway (talk) 🍁 16:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

ᴅᴀᴍɴ. That's a tonne of sources! Thank you immensely for such a terrific assist! Speaking just for myself, would you object if I use {{strikethrough}} to keep track of which sources've been mined once thay start getting used? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)