Talk:Female impersonation

Change from redirect to disambiguation page

Recently, female impersonation changed from a simple redirect to drag queen, to a disambiguation page that includes both drag queen and cross-dressing. But I don't see any discussion about why this was changed, or any explanation for the change...? Hist9600 (talk) 13:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Because drag queen and cross-dressing are different, although related concepts. I hope you agree "grag queen" is not the only form of female impersonation. I forgot one more meaning; added. - Altenmann >talk 23:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have sources for these uses? I'm wondering in what senses you are saying that cross-dressing is female impersonation, for example. Female impersonator is a term with nuance that meant different things at different times in history. Hist9600 (talk) 00:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

in what senses you are saying that cross-dressing is female impersonation -- hah :-) the problem of the verb "is". The disambig page is saying that the article of cross-dressing cover the subject of female impersonation (among other things). - Altenmann >talk 00:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

a term with nuance that meant different things -- precisely for this reason we have disambiguation pages. - Altenmann >talk 00:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really help with context, though, because a cross-dresser in the 1950s might have been considered a female impersonator in that era. However, a cross-dresser in the 2020s is generally not considered a female impersonator. Hist9600 (talk) 00:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It seems that you misunderstand the function of disambig pages. If a wikipedia article XCDr about a cross-dresser in the 2020s uses the term cross-dresser, then the article is fine. However if the article XCDr uses the term female impersonation, then you will have to select a proper term from the list in Female impersonation. - Altenmann >talk 04:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the disambiguation page makes it seem as though female impersonator is synonymous with cross-dresser, which is not the case anymore, and using that term in a modern context may be derogatory. Disambiguation pages often provide some context next to the link when needed, which you did not do when you made these changes. Hist9600 (talk) 16:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Disambig pages make seem no such thing. True or false: "Female impersonation may refer to: cross dressing"? Before you answer please pay attention to the word "may". - Altenmann >talk 19:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages often do provide needed context so readers are not being misled. Female impersonation referred to cross-dressing historically (i.e., in the past), but that is not a normal and accepted term anymore. Hist9600 (talk) 21:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Correct about disambig pages, but you have yet to prove that it is "not a normal" term anymore. I see exactly opposite in google books .- Altenmann >talk 02:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose @Hist9600 and Altenmann I am concerned about the completely inaccurate presentation of the term "female impersonator" which actually does have a very specific definition used by theatre historians and writers in gender studies. Female impersonation is a specific type of Western performance art that is rooted in heteronormative culture. Many drag queens find the use of the word "female impersonator" offensive because that term is applied to straight men in drag. There is a whole genre of female impersonator roles of the the 19th and 20th century theatre canon made for straight men playing women on the stage in "dame" and wench" roles which was prominent in minstrel shows, vaudeville, and in Broadway musicals and plays. There's an entry on this in Senelick, Laurence (1996). "Female/male impersonation". In Wilmeth, Don B.; Miller, Tice L. (eds.). The Cambridge Guide to American Theatre. Cambridge University Press. pp. 149–50. ISBN 9780521564441. The term cross-gender acting is a broader modern/global concept, and is not the same thing. For right now, the drag queen article houses the female impersonator content, and the redirect to that article should remain. However, female impersonation deserves its own separate article because female impersonators are not the same as being a drag queen. Female impersonators are associated with heteronormative culture where as drag is coming from an LGBTQ paradigm with a different construction/deconstruction of gender, sexuality, etc. that isn't present in female impersonation. The female impersonation stage roles are also very different from drag as a performance art. The current cross-gender article also looks a lot like WP:OR and the coverage on female impersonation is lacking the use of quality scholarly articles on the topic such as the one provided above. Best.4meter4 (talk) 01:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
  • You are right that wikipedia articles on the subject suck and I agree that "Female impersonators are associated with heteronormative culture etc." and drag culture is a different paradigm. But until there is no separate article on female ipersonation, this disambig page serves its purpose. I would have written the new article myself, but I am far from being an expert on the subject. There are a wealth of books on the subject and I am afraid of being lost- Altenmann >talk 02:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

YOu cannot destroy the disambig page, because this is a generic phrase meaning "impersonation of a female" - Altenmann >talk 01:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

P.S. you wrote yourself "female impersonation deserves its own separate article because female impersonators are not the same as being a drag queen". Female impersonation can be traced back at least as far as ancient Greece.- and yet you redirect this page to Drag queen. Julian Eltinge was no way a "drag queen". - Altenmann >talk 01:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@Altenmann There is a ton of global female impersonation coverage at the drag queen article, much of which should probably be moved here. The drag queen article should really emphasize queer identity, because the term drag queen specifically refers to a type of queer performing artist.4meter4 (talk) 04:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Correct. Köçek or Onnagata are not drag queens. - Altenmann >talk 05:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@Altenmann The term cross-dressing is often used in the context of sexual fetish .For this reason the term cross-dresser is not really appropriate to link to on this page, and is actually frowned upon by drag performers and female impersonators. (see "Drag Queen". Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, Volume 2. SAGE Publications. p. 228. where drag queen article specifically says the term cross-dresser should not be used to refer to people who are in drag because of its link to sexual fetish; that should go for female impersonators too.)4meter4 (talk) 05:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Article expansion

When moving chunks of text from wikipedia article to another, you have to follow the rules of WP:COPYWITHIN, for copyright reasons. I usually put the template {{copied}} into four places: into two edit summaries and into two talk pages. - Altenmann >talk 06:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I did follow the guideline. I stated I was moving the content from the drag queen article in the edit summary which is enough to meet the COPYWITHIN guideline. But thanks for letting me know about the template4meter4 (talk) 07:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)