Talk:First Battle of Newtonia

Infobox wrong ?

I notice that the infobox is headed 'Battle of Newtonia'; but there is at least a 'Second Battle ...'. Is there any particular reason? RASAM (talk) 21:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:First Battle of Newtonia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zawed (talk · contribs) 01:17, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I will take this one, comments to follow. Zawed (talk) 01:17, 11 April 2020 (UTC) I don't believe I have reviewed an American Civil War article before, please bear this in mind if some of my comments seem a bit obvious or misguided!

Lead

• The second sentence has the word "commanded" in close succession; suggest replacing the first instance with "led"
  • Replaced second use with led
• Actually commanded is used a few times in the lead; consider rephrasing in light of this.
  • Replaced the second and fourth instances with led

Background

• What is Price's rank? At a glance, all the other ranks are explicitly stated, e.g. brigadier general, major general.
  • Added
• ...official Confederate officer...; a colonel is an officer, so the use of officer is redundant. Fom the context, I don't understand the usage of official here. Could just say Colonel or Confederate Colonel
  • I'll get rid of the officer, but the official is in there to contrast with Quantrill's guerrillas, who weren't really exactly sanctioned by anyone
  • UPDATE - Rephrased the whole thing
• ..led Union Department of the Missouri commander Brigadier General John M. Schofield to be replaced by Major General Samuel R. Curtis.: suggest "led the Union's commander of the Department of the Missouri, Brigadier General John M. Schofield, being replaced by Major General Samuel R. Curtis."
  • Rephrased as suggested, but I added a to between led and the
• Cooper's force: This phrase is used to start two successive sentences, suggest rephrasing one of them.
  • Done
• town of Newtonia, Missouri: Already established that we are in Missouri, so just hide the Missouri part of the link
  • Done

Battle

• Blunt's advance force Are you able to advise an approximate breakdown of the composition of this force (cavalry, artillery, infantry)? It may help to expand this section of the article.
  • I was able to determine that all three arms were present in the fight, and I found a definite number of cannons. However, I was unable to get a numerical breakdown between infantry and cavalry.
• Use of "force" twice in the first sentence. Perhaps the second usage could be scouting party or similar (bear in mind that the following reference to advance guard may need to be amended for consistency)
  • Amended the first usage
• Salomon's advance guard encountered a portion of Shelby's cavalry.: So was there a skirmish or was the advance guard undetected?
  • Clarified
• ..., and sent an artillery battery commanded by Hiram Bledsoe to support them. to avoid the repeated usage of sent in the same sentence, suggest "..., with an artillery battery, commanded by Hiram Bledsoe, in support." Do we know the rank of Bledsoe?
  • Rephrased. Bledsoe's rank is variously given in sources as either Colonel or Captain. My personal guess is that Captain is correct, and Colonel is an honorary or postwar title, but I can't include my WP:OR for that. This area was essentially the backwater of the conflict, so not all information has been preserved. A lot of official reports and records weren't written or no longer exist. For instance, Shelby's battle reports exist but are essentially unusable because the staff officer who wrote them had a Walter Scott complex.
• Suggesting breaking the paragraph at note 10; helps reinforce to the reader that this is a different phase of action.
  • There was already a break there

Aftermath

• Suggest moving the casualty information to the end of the Battle section
  • Done
• It is stated that the Native Americans played a significant role on both sides - there is no mention of their presence in the Union forces.
  • Mentioned the Union's Cherokee warriors, and rephrased the statement to indicate that it was the first time Native Americans had fought on both sides in an organized manner, which is also true (I couldn't find much specifying exactly what the Union Cherokees did in the fight, and didn't want to say a significant role and then not give one).

Other stuff

• The image with the caption that starts "Map of Newtonia I Battlefield..." lacks context to me because of the usage of Newtonia I. Perhaps it should be "Map of the location of the First Battle of Newtonia"? Is there anything to be added regarding the work of the American Battlefield Protection Program in Newtonia? It could go into the Historic District section.
  • Added, though there's not a whole lot it determined for this site.
• Image tags look OK
• Earwig tool reports low probability of copyvio
• No dupe or dab links
• External links check suggests that note 14 may be dead but I was able to access it. There is some info in that link that could beef up the article - eg Ritchey's house being used as a hospital (justifies its mention in the Historic District section), the nature of the first contact on 29 Sept.
  • Done

That's it for me, hope the comments/feedback is useful. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 02:33, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I've responded to all points, anything else you see that needs work or where I didn't quite get what you had in mind? Hog Farm (talk) 20:24, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

This looks good, passing as GA now. Good work! Cheers, Zawed (talk) 04:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by DannyS712 (talk) 23:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

* ... that the First Battle of Newtonia was the first battle of the American Civil War in which organized units of Native Americans fought on each side? [https://www.joplinglobe.com/news/local_news/damnable-time/article_cc8be2c7-a000-5a93-94c7-84834c13d206.html The Joplin Globe

• • ALT1:... that despite winning the First Battle of Newtonia, the Confederate army retreated from Missouri? Sources 14 and 15 in the text

Improved to Good Article status by Hog Farm (talk). Self-nominated at 15:54, 14 April 2020 (UTC).

• Reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Morningside Heights, Manhattan

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - While it is cited, I'm not sure it's true. According to this book (pg. 30) Native American units participated in an earlier battle.
  • Reply: The kicker is that while yes, Native Americans had fought in battles since about the beginning of the war, the hook (at least intended to) claims that it was on both sides. The parts of the book I saw doesn't seem to indicate against this. Research of my own has suggested the Battle of Round Mountain may have seen action on both sides, so I'll need to research that more. The newspaper quoted is one of the regional issues from the Newtonia area, newspapers in southwestern Missouri are going to be inherently low-circulation. Hog Farm (talk) 02:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
    • @Buidhe: - Striking ALT0 - After further research, this comes down to the definition of "organized" used (Round Mountain had both sides, but one wasn't really official or organized) Is ALT1 interesting enough, or do I need to work on other hooks? Are you going to send this one through Good Article Reassessment? Hog Farm (talk) 02:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
• Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: I would be wary of trusting newspapers (esp low circulation newspapers) for historical facts, in my experience they are not infrequently wrong. buidhe 02:07, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

• ALT1 is fine, I cannot verify myself but will AGF on it. buidhe 03:00, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 6th Kansas Cavalry flag.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:26, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Copy edit queries

Hi Hog Farm, here goes.

I intend to be moderately bold with my copy editing, so feel entirely free to query anything which you think I have got wrong, you are not happy with or you don't understand why I've done it.

• It is normal to give the names of the two sides and their commanders in the first sentence or two, before going on the give further background. And yes, it can feel as if you are summarising the summary. Have a look at a few of my battle FAs to see what I mean.
  • Done
• IMO, and I don't insist that I am correct on this, what you have as "Background" should be relabelled as 'Prelude', and a new Background written giving the deeper background. Say one meaty paragraph, possibly starting something like 'The American Civil War broke out in April 1861 between a group of seceding southern states known as the Confederate States of America and the remaining northern states of the United States. There were numerous differences between the two sides, with an especially intractable one being the issue of slavery. Both sides anticipated a short war and so ... blah, blah.' filling the period up to where what is now Background commences. Feel free to shamelessly steal from American Civil War, editing down as necessary.
  • Would it be better for a whole war overview, or a ACW in Missouri overview like is at Slayback's Missouri Cavalry Regiment?

A mix would be fine. But IMO you definitely need something introducing the ACW as a whole. Remember, the majority of English speakers will have never - or only vaguely - have heard of it. (It is not uncommon for even educated non-Americans to confuse it with the Revolutionary War!) Gog the Mild (talk) 19:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I've got two paragraphs of a mix, covering the election of Lincoln, secession, Fort Sumter, Bull Run, Wilson's Creek, and Pea Ridge, and I've tweaked the transition in a way that kinda sets the stage

• "that Union troops were advancing to Granby" Consider adding 'which was XX miles northeast [or whatever] of Newtonia'. There is at least one other place where similar orientation might help a reader.
  • I've got a distance between Sarcoxie and Newtonia, but I'm not finding anything that specifically states how far Newtonia and Granby are apart. Do I need to cite a highway map?

They don't need citing. I usually take them off Google Maps. So Newtonia to Granby is about 6 miles. Don't forget to use the convert template.

Added. I'm a little worried this will be challenged during the FAC, though. (It's something I might question in a GA review, but maybe I'm just too harsh with those).

• "Historian Shelby Foote stated that the total strength of the Union column was 4,000 men, although other sources place the overall strength at 4,500." 1) Is there a reason for these numbers being given before the artillery is detailed? 2) Is the breakdown between the three arms known?
  • 1) Moved 2) Unfortunately, not that I've seen

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Gog the Mild: - I've replied to everything above. Unfortunately, a couple points I just haven't been able to find yet in reliable sources. Hog Farm _Bacon 05:15, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

The new material looks very good. It is possibly a bit too detailed, so I have trimmed it slightly, see what you think.

• "and three guns of the 25th Ohio Battery ... Lynde also brought two mountain howitzers with his force ... Union reinforcements brought the number of cannons Lynde had available to five" Something seems to have gone wrong here.
  • Corrected. When I originally wrote it, it had less detail, so when I expanded, I wound up with detail about the reinforcements, but forgot to remove the redundancy.
• "Jeans' cavalry regiment" If that is its formal name, it should be 'Jeans' Cavalry Regiment'.
  • Formal name would be Jeans' Missouri Cavalry Regiment or the 12th Missouri Cavalry Regiment.
• "Three cannon crews that had seen heavy fighting in Lynde's morning action ... formed a reserve". Just the crews? Not accompanied by their cannons?
  • Clarified
• "an ammunition-gathering expedition" Would it be possible to rephrase this a little more formally.
  • Rephrased

This is looking pretty good. It should be FACable soon. Nice work. I still have Preservation to do. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:13, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

• "as the resources available for preservation at Newtonia". I don't understand this. What is meant by "resources"?
  • Rephrased

First run through completed. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:30, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

• • @Gog the Mild: - I've got these. Many thanks. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Take two

• Where are you with the nomination for deletion for "6th Kansas Cavalry flag.jpg"?

It looks very likely to be kept. Claim of copyright by the source is invalid, and the people at Commons are holding that it counts as 2D art.

• Bears: when there is more than one work by an author it is usual to put the earliest published first.

Done. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

• "a defensive line with nine available cannons" I am not sure about the use of "available". Surely it should be either 'a defensive line with the nine available cannons' or 'a defensive line with nine cannons'?

Fixed. Forgot the "the"

Gog the Mild (talk) 16:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I am sure that reviewers will find plenty that I have missed to pick at, but IMO this is now ready for FAC. Good luck. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)