Talk:First ladies and gentlemen of Kansas

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Ladies and Partners of California which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 13 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. While Scope creep was the editor carrying out the moves, I find that there is a consensus to move to the proposed title. Noting the exchange at the end of the discussion, this closure does not preclude further possible moves to 'List of...' titles if necessary. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 00:22, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

---

• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Kansas → First ladies and gentlemen of Kansas
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Montana → First ladies and gentlemen of Montana
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Oklahoma → First ladies and gentlemen of Oklahoma
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Oregon → First ladies and gentlemen of Oregon
• First Ladies and Partners of California → First ladies and partners of California
• First Ladies of Georgia (U.S. state) → First ladies of Georgia (U.S. state)
• First Ladies of Hawaii → First ladies of Hawaii
• First Ladies of Minnesota → First ladies of Minnesota
• First Ladies of Missouri → First ladies of Missouri
• First Ladies of Wisconsin → First ladies of Wisconsin
• First Ladies of Maryland → First ladies of Maryland
• List of First Ladies and Gentlemen of Michigan → List of first ladies and gentlemen of Michigan
• First Ladies of Pennsylvania → First ladies of Pennsylvania
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Argentina → First ladies and gentlemen of Argentina
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Bolivia → First ladies and gentlemen of Bolivia
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Costa Rica → First ladies and gentlemen of Costa Rica
• First Ladies of Djibouti → First ladies of Djibouti
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Ecuador → First ladies and gentlemen of Ecuador
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Gabon → First ladies and gentlemen of Gabon
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Georgia → First ladies and gentlemen of Georgia (country)
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Haiti → First ladies and gentlemen of Haiti
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Honduras → First ladies and gentlemen of Honduras
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of India → First ladies and gentlemen of India
• Second Ladies of India → Second ladies of India
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Kyrgyzstan → First ladies and gentlemen of Kyrgyzstan
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Lithuania → First ladies and gentlemen of Lithuania
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Malawi → First ladies and gentlemen of Malawi
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Malta → First ladies and gentlemen of Malta
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Mauritius → First ladies and gentlemen of Mauritius
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Pakistan → First ladies and gentlemen of Pakistan
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Panama → First ladies and gentlemen of Panama
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Slovakia → First ladies and gentlemen of Slovakia
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Tanzania → First ladies and gentlemen of Tanzania
• First Ladies of Turkey → First ladies of Turkey
• Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States → Second ladies and gentlemen of the United States
• First Ladies of Uzbekistan → First ladies of Uzbekistan
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Texas → First ladies and gentlemen of Texas
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Alaska → First ladies and gentlemen of Alaska
• First Ladies of Nevada → First ladies of Nevada
• First Ladies of North Dakota → First ladies of North Dakota
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of New York → First ladies and gentlemen of New York
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Guam → First ladies and gentlemen of Guam
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of Puerto Rico → First ladies and gentlemen of Puerto Rico
• First Ladies and Gentlemen of the Philippines → First ladies and gentlemen of the Philippines

– Seems like MOS:JOBTITLES and WP:NCCAPS apply here. Articles like First Lady of the United States are acceptable because the singular refers to a formal title. But all of these are plural and technically refer to a description (as is the case with List of first ladies of the United States). Woko Sapien (talk) 15:44, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. Added Texas above. Don't yet have an opinion on the outcome of this. — Maile (talk) 16:45, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. I have a comment on just one of these lists; namely the one that says Georgia. I support that it should be moved to indicate that it's clearly about the country. Georgia guy (talk) 16:52, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Done --Woko Sapien (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support, obviously, not only per Wikipedia's style guide but also per virtually every academic and journalistic style guide out there, including the Oxford Manual of Style The Chicago Manual of Style, and AP Stylebook. This overcapitalization looks very unencyclopedic. Surtsicna (talk) 16:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support Not a proper noun in this situation since it not about a specific person. I also support the existing proposal to move First Ladies and Gentlemen of Georgia as it could be confused with the First lady list for the US State.--65.92.162.81 (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
• Strong support, as in last year's RM at Talk:First Ladies and Partners of California#Requested move 1 February 2021. This should be lowercase per MOS:JOBTITLES: Plurals like these are classes containing multiple people and thus common nouns and should not be capitalized. See List of presidents of the United States and its RM discussion in 2019 at Talk:List of presidents of the United States/Archive 13#Requested move 27 July 2019, List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II and its RM discussion at Talk:List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II#Requested move 12 October 2017, the older RMs at Talk:List of mayors of Birmingham, Talk:List of mayors of Finsbury, Talk:List of mayors of Leeds, Talk:List of provosts of Aberdeen, and other articles in Category:Lists of prime ministers by country and Category:Lists of national presidents, etc. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:51, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

  And Talk:List of mayors and lord mayors of Perth#Requested move 5 May 2021. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:59, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

  And Talk:List of United States attorneys appointed by Donald Trump#Requested move 27 December 2021. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:06, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support - Per BarrelProof. Primergrey (talk) 01:54, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support: Just like every other common noun. SchreiberBike | ⌨  02:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. To editor Woko Sapien: had to remove one item because it is a redirect, and redirects are ineligible as current titles in move requests. Two options are 1) leave it as it is now, or 2) use the actual target of the redirect, which would appear as either:

• 2a – Second Ladies of India → Second ladies of India, or
• 2b – Second Ladies of India → Second ladies and gentleman of India

Which would you like to do? P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 23:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Good catch. I guess Second ladies of India (2a) makes more sense as it makes the fewest changes. The article can be changed to 2b later when that becomes necessary. Woko Sapien (talk) 15:42, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

 As you wish, 2a has been added to the list. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 16:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment This came up on Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Article alerts. I have page mover, so I can do the moves for you. It looks like there is strong support for it. Ping me if you need me. scope_creep^Talk 05:44, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Scope creep, I believe the seven days for open discussion have now passed. The consensus seems pretty clear, so feel free to move this if you'd like. Woko Sapien (talk) 22:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@Woko Sapien: 9 supports and one oppose. Strong consensus for move. scope_creep^Talk 22:20, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Shwcz (talk) 19:25, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom and for WP:CONSISTENCY reasons. cookie monster 755 02:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom and WP:CONSISTENT.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:46, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - as those are proper titles. GoodDay (talk) 09:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Seen many similar move requests like this editor GoodDay, and the consensual trend has been to treat the singular titles as proper names in upper case, while the plural titles are treated as common names in lower case. That is why this request has received so much support. Just sayin'. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 11:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
    • They should've been nominated for lowercase, beginning the title with "List of..." Example: We have List of vice presidents of the United States. -- GoodDay (talk) 11:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
      • It appears that the nom is just following the present naming system of these articles with as little change as possible to incur as little objection as possible. The WP naming convention tells us that the usage of "List of..." is a "common practice"; however, while these articles could be said to be titled in an unusual, uncommon manner, it seems okay to entitle them that way, at least for now. The issue here is that plural usages should be in lower case, not in upper case. Small steps get more yeps? P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 11:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

        Yeah, that was my thought process in a nutshell. I toyed with adding "List of..." to my proposal, but figured that could complicate the discussion more than it needs to be. But I'm certainly open to adding "List of..." to these titles later on. For now, I decided to just follow the KISS principle. Woko Sapien (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move completed apart from last entry

@Woko Sapien: I've moved per instructions. I've removed the requested move tags right up until. First ladies of Hawaii. For some reason I couldn't move First Ladies and Gentlemen of the Philippines. You will need to take it to WP:RM where admin can look. I don't know whats up for it. You will need to check the leads and makes sure the intro is ok. scope_creep^Talk 23:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@Woko Sapien: They're is 133 redirects [[1]] that will need to be addressed. I don't know what you want to do with them. scope_creep^Talk 23:20, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Typically double redirects are resolved in the discussion closure process, or they're fixed by bots later on. Woko Sapien (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

That doesn't automatically happen when the WP:Page mover incompetently suppresses redirects. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Oh jeez, what a mess! Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help untangle this. Woko Sapien (talk) 17:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

@Scope creep why did you suppress the redirect creation though? and remember to close the discussion. – robertsky (talk) 23:36, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Page swapped the Philippines article. – robertsky (talk) 23:37, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@Paine Ellsworth, let me know if I have missed out any redirects. Have followed up with the Talk page redirects creation. – robertsky (talk) 06:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

To editor ­robertsky: thank you very much for your follow up! Get a chance, check out one or two of the redirects and talk pages, as I made some small improvements. Thanks again! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 15:13, 24 December 2022 (UTC)