Talk:Fluctuating asymmetry/Archive 1

Archive 1

Pseudoscience

It ought to be mentioned that the description here in terms of "developmental instability" is pure pseudoscience: "....the ability of the genome to successfully canalize and buffer development to achieve a normal phenotype under imperfect environments,..." There is no such thing as a "normal" phenotype or "imperfect" environments, nor does a genome have any "ability". It is all just pure pseudoscience. The genuinely scientific concept is antiinnatia. Robin P Clarke

If you've got a reliable source, feel free to change the article to reflect the presence of other theories. 72.195.132.12 (talk) 13:30, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

FA is very controversial, but this article fails to present opposing views in such a way as to present a balanced article. This article appears very biased and should be re-written, in my opnion. Marchino61 (talk) 08:52, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Planned Updates

As part of a University psychology module, myself and two others (Nd2242 and OR95) are planning on refining and adding to this article over the next 7 weeks. Proposed changes will be posted to the talk page beforehand, but will generally involve evolutionary explanations of fluctuating asymmetry and how it links to human sexuality. NC1328656 (talk) 19:10, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Update: As part of these changes, I have compiled a list of sources likely to be used in helping to improve the article:

• Baldwin, J., & LeVay, S. (2012). Human Sexuality (4th Ed.). Sinauer Associates, Inc. ISBN: 978-0-87893-570-3.
• Fink, B., Neave, N., Manning, J. T., & Grammer, K. (2006). Facial symmetry and judgements of attractiveness, health and personality. Personality and Individual Differences, 41, 491-499. Doi: 10.1016/j.paid.2006.01.017.
• Gangestad, S. W., Thornhill, R., & Yeo, R. A. (1994). Facial attractiveness, developmental stability, and fluctuating asymmetry. Ethology & Sociobiology, 15, 73-85. Doi: 10.1016/0162-3095(94)90018-3.
• Rott, H., & Polak, M. (2003). Developmental instability: Causes and consequences. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN: 978-0195143454.
• Singh, D., & Rosen, V. C. (2001). Effects of maternal body morphology, morning sickness, gestational diabetes and hypertension on fluctuating asymmetry in young women. Evolution and Human Behavior, 22, 373-384. Doi: 10.1016/S1090-5138(01)00082-4.
• Swaddle, J. P. (2003). Fluctuating asymmetry, animal behaviour, and evolution. In Advances in the study of behaviour, Vol. 32, by Slater, P. J. B., Rosenblatt, J. S., Snowdon, C. T., & Roper, T. J. (Eds.), 169-205. San Diego, CA, US: Academic Press, 2003. Doi: 10/1016/S0065-3454(03)01004-0.
• Thoma, R. J., Yeo, R. A., Gangestad, S. W., Lewine, J. D., & Davis, J. T. (2002). Fluctuating asymmetry and the human brain. Laterality: Asymmetries of Body, Brain and Cognition, 7, 45-58. Doi: 10.1080/13576500143000122.
• Thornhill, R. (1992). Fluctuating asymmetry and the mating system of the Japanese scorpionfly, Panorpa japonica. Animal Behaviour, 44, 867-879. Doi: 10.1016/S0003-3472(05)80583-4.
• Thornhill, R., & Gangestad, S. W. (2008). The evolutionary biology of human female sexuality. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN: 978-0-19-534098-3.
• Van Dongen, S., & Gangestad, S. W. (2011). Human fluctuating asymmetry in relation to health and quality: A meta-analysis. Evolution and Human Behavior, 32, 380-398. Doi: 10.1016/j.evolhumbehav.2011.03.002.

NC1328656 (talk) 12:37, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Planned updates: Potential bibliography

Below I have posted a bibliography of potential sources that could be used in improving this article for my Human Sexuality class project. These updates will be made with two others, (Nd2242) and (NC1328656). OR95 (talk) 19:53, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Allen, G. R., & Simmons, L. W. (1996). Coercive mating, fluctuating asymmetry and male mating success in the dung fly, sepsis cynipsea. Animal Behaviour, 52(4), 737-714.

• Banks, G. C., Batchelor, J. H., & McDaniel, M. A. (2010). Smarter people are (a bit) more symmetrical: A meta-analysis of the relationship between intelligence and fluctuating asymmetry. Intelligence, 38(4), 393-401.

• Buss, D. M. (2004). Evolutionary psychology: The new science of the mind. (2nd ed.). Boston: Pearson Education, Inc.

• David, P., Hingle, A., Fowler, K., & Pomiankowski, A. (1999). Measurement bias and fluctuating asymmetry estimates. Animal Behaviour, 57(1), 251-253.

• van Dongen, S., & Gangestad, S. W. (2011). Human fluctuating asymmetry in relation to health and quality: A meta-analysis. Evolution and Human Behavior, 32(6), 380-398.

• Gangestad, S. W., Merriman, L. A., & Thompson, M. E. (2010). Men's oxidative stress, fluctuating symmetry and physical attractiveness. Animal Behaviour, 80(6), 1005-1013.

• Gangestad, S. W., & Thornhill, R. (1997). The evolutionary psychology of extrapair sex: The role of fluctuating asymmetry. Evolution and Human Behavior, 18(2), 69-88.

• Hume, D. K., & Montgomerie, R. (2001). Facial attractiveness signals different of "quality" in women and men. Evolution and Human Behavior, 22(2), 93-112.

• Manning, J. T. (1995). Fluctuating asymmetry and body weight in men and women: Implications for sexual selection. Ethology & Sociobiology, 16(2), 145-153.

• Martin, S. M., Manning, J. T., & Dowrick, C. F. (1999). Fluctuating asymmetry, relative digit length, and depression in men. Evolution and Human Behavior, 20(3), 203-214.

• Milne, B. J., Belsky, J., Poulton, R., Thomson, W. M., Caspi, A., & Kieser, J. (2003). Fluctuating asymmetry and physical health among young adults. Evolution and Human Behavior, 24(1), 53-63.

OR95 (talk) 18:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Updates on bibliography/contribution

I have uploaded a draft contribution to this page (drawing on the bibliography uploaded above) by adding sections on the relationship between FA and health outcomes, resistance to disease, mental health and longevity. I plan on refining and adding to this contribution over the next few weeks as part of my Human Sexuality coursework. I would be happy to hear any feedback on this draft contribution on the article's talk page.

OR95 (talk) 21:04, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Planned Updates: Potential Bibliography

Below I have posted a bibliography of potential sources for updating the page for my Human Sexuality University Course. I hope to be making updates with 2 others, (OR95 and NC1328656)

• Banks, G. C., Batchelor, J. H., & McDaniel, M. A. (2010). Smarter people are (a bit) more symmetrical: A meta-analysis of the relationship between intelligence and fluctuating asymmetry. Intelligence, 38(4), 393-401.
• Gangestad, S. W., & Thornhill, R. (1997). Human sexual selection and developmental stability. Evolutionary social psychology. (pp. 169-196) Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Inc, Hillsdale, NJ.
• Gangestad, S. W., & Thornhill, R. (2003). Facial masculinity and fluctuating asymmetry. Evolution and Human Behavior, 24(4), 231-241.
• Gangestad, S. W., Thornhill, R., & Yeo, R. A. (1994). Facial attractiveness, developmental stability, and fluctuating asymmetry. Ethology & Sociobiology, 15(2), 73-85.
• Luxen, M. F., & Buunk, B. P. (2006). Human intelligence, fluctuating asymmetry and the peacock's tail: General intelligence (g) as an honest signal of fitness. Personality and Individual Differences, 41(5), 897-902.
• Manning, J. T. (1995). Fluctuating asymmetry and body weight in men and women: Implications for sexual selection. Ethology & Sociobiology, 16(2), 145-153.
• Neby, M., & Folstad, I. (2013). Ranking fluctuating asymmetry in a dot figure and the significant impact of imagining a face. Perception, 42(3), 321-329.
• Swaddle, J. P. (2003). Fluctuating asymmetry, animal behavior, and evolution Academic Press, San Diego, CA.
• Thornhill, R., & Gangestad, S. W. (1994). Human fluctuating asymmetry and sexual behavior. Psychological Science, 5(5), 297-302.
• VanDongen, S. (2012). Fluctuating asymmetry and masculinity/femininity in humans: A meta-analysis. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 41(6), 1453-1460.

Nd2242 (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Recent Updates

I have added a paragraph showing some of the correlations between FA and personality factors. I plan on refining this over the next few weeks. Nd2242 (talk) 16:37, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Peer Review: Suggestions

This article has started off quite well, structured nicely and describes FA clearly. The lead was a good way of introducing your article, however I would ensure that you reorganise it so that the article follows the order of the lead outline. Additionally, I would just make sure that your lead briefly summarizes everything the article will be talking about. It may be useful to provide examples in your lead to make sure that it is clear what part of the article that section of the lead is referring to. For example, when you describe developmental stability give an example of the possible stressors you are referring to. That way the reader will be able to scroll down the article and understand what part of the article was related to that section in the lead.

Overall, you describe FA well and provide an extensive, well-researched list of references. To improve slightly more I would suggest that the article goes into further depth with descriptions of certain areas. Some areas only have a couple of sentences, which could be expanded on further. This will ensure that the layperson thoroughly understands FA and everything you mention within the article.

A final recommendation would be to make sure you talk about everything you mention in your lead outline. The article mentions that FA can be measured, but does not explain how this may be done. Perhaps adding in a section about measuring FA would be a good idea. DishaK94 (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions! We have reorganised the lead to ensure that it reflects the ordering of the rest of the article, and includes a mention of everything covered, including examples. We have further extended all sections of the article to provide more depth, in a way that should be easily understood by everyone. Thanks! Nd2242 (talk) 10:14, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Points for consideration

1. You mention the potential for FA to be measured but do not elaborate on this.
2. The introductory section has too much information which could do with being in their own sections later in the article.
3. It is not always clear how certain points link back to the topic of FA (e.g mother's morning sickness).
4. The individual differences section could do with having subheadings.Danwbell (talk) 22:27, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions. We have now included a section explaining the measurement of FA, and have altered the lead to make sure it only briefly explains what is included throughout the article, rather than putting all of the information there. We have further tried to make sure everything is clearly linked back to the main topic of FA, and have altered the section including individual differences, to now being other factors. Nd2242 (talk) 10:18, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Article Expansion

Adding details on how FA is actually calculated (by subtracting all midpoints) may aid understanding of the concept, and a diagram of photograph could be added to illustrate this further. Research conducted on the relationship between FA and mating success in both males and females would also be relevant, and sources on this aren't difficult to find. Psundd (talk) 15:38, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions. We have now added a section on the measurement of FA, with further images within the page. We have also added a section on sexual selection to cover the topic of how FA is linked to mating success in both humans and non-human animals. Nd2242 (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Diagram/Picture

Fluctuating Asymmetry can be better understood by including a picture or diagram of fluctuating asymmetry to this page. Psunds1993 (talk) 00:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. Pictures have now been included. Nd2242 (talk) 10:24, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Content Suggestion

Adding to the above suggestion on how Fluctuating Asymmetry (FA) arises, having a section on developmental instability as possible reasons for FA could be a useful contribution. These are examples such as: infectious diseases, food quality and quantity, toxins and poisons. One example for this (as mentioned above) could be the study by Singh (2000), which suggests that there is a relationship between mother's morning sickness and their daughter's FA. They used a measure of thigh girth FA and reported a high number of FA in thighs when there was no morning sickness or extended morning sickness beyond week 12. This is an example of toxins and poisons in developmental instability, as morning sickness seems to be an adaptation for voiding and avoiding toxins during early fetal life. JS.Chester (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions. A section briefly explaining developmental stability has been added, which explains what this is, and how it links to FA. The morning sickness suggestion has been applied to the section explaining environmental factors affecting FA, and how this further links to developmental stability. Nd2242 (talk) 10:27, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Clearer Explanation

I feel much more simpler and clearer language could be used in explaining this to make it easily accessible to those less familiar with this concept. For example, perhaps firstly defining fluctuating asymmetry as a deviation from perfect symmetry in an organism (explaining this does not only apply to facial features but the rest of the body as well in humans/homosapiens). Many may not be familiar with the definition of bilateral asymmetry and its relation to fluctuating asymmetry. The explanation on ‘low mean value’ and ‘low magnitude’ could be explained more clearly. Perhaps explaining that when measuring facial asymmetry a score is often obtained from subtracting all the midpoints, explaining the higher the score the more perfectly symmetrical the organism and of course the opposite is the case with fluctuating asymmetry. Nisep (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions. We have tried to make the topic accessible to a wider audience, with simpler language, clear definitions, and multiple examples. We have further added a section explaining the measurement of FA to explain how it is calculated. Nd2242 (talk) 10:31, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Feedback: Avoidance of repetition.

Some feedback: Make sure to delete any research or sentences that have been added twice. Or decide where the appropriate heading is, and only have the research there. For example, the study looking at maternal morning sickness and FA has been mentioned twice, maybe even three times. This has also happened under FA and physical health- the same study about oxidative stress is repeated twice. This will make the article clearer and easier to understand. Rcuf235 (talk) 09:54, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. We have removed repetitions, and replaced with different, and more useful examples. Nd2242 (talk) 10:32, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Article Improvement suggestions

You have also done a number of things very well:

1. The sources are all very reliable and credible. The writers do not rely on only a few specific sources.

2. The information is unbiased. This is clear because every claim is referenced.

3. The information is also presented in a very unbiased way.

A few suggestions for improvements:

1. The lead section is not structured very clearly. I would suggest breaking this section up and using it to instead summarise the whole article. - I have copy-edited this.

2. I would restructure it in a way that FA and individual differences is an entirely new section. - I have added your individual differences information to a new heading with personality traits information. This needs further tidying.

3. A section on fluctuating asymmetry and sexual selection and cultural differences would also be nice to see. - I have introduced a new heading to gather the information you have spread across the article on FA and developmental stability. Your research on mothers morning sickness and daughters' FA should go here.

4. The evolutionary perspective explaining FA is also very important. This would entail describing research that shows that low fluctuating asymmetry leads to higher reproductive success.

5. FA in animals for example the peacocks tail would also be a good addition. - This could also be added to the sexual selection under the newly added FA and sexual selection heading.

Mshahzad1 (talk) 14:02, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your positive comments and suggestions. We have edited the lead, to make sure it can be used as a simple summary of the whole article. We have also changed the whole individual differences section, as to be included under the section 'other factors'. This separates personality from intelligence, and now also includes other topics within this. A section on sexual selection within humans and non-human animals has also been added. Nd2242 (talk) 10:37, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Improvement

This article can be further improved by having more information about directional asymmetry. Whilst symmetry tends to be preferred in various human traits, such as facial symmetry, directional asymmetry is also optimal in some human traits, such as brain adaptations and handedness (right-handed or left-handed). D818hy (talk) 21:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Great start. I would tighten up the introduction section an include a definition of the lay person to understand, including why it is an important trait. Inclusion of images and/or diagrams would make it easier to understand. An additional section could be FA within animals as well as within humans. BD441 (talk) 15:01, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I think overall this article is really well structured and is easy to follow. I think more research on the developmental stability section would be useful and make the article more informational as a whole. Some examples of papers to use: Fluctuating asymmetry and developmental stability-heritability of observable variation vs. heritability of inferred cause (Palmer, Strobeck) and The Heritability of Fluctuating Asymmetry and the Genetic Control of Developmental Stability (Whitlock). Additionally, more research on ageing would be good, just so the article is more even in terms of information under each heading.BF2510 (talk) 15:20, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for all your comments and suggestions. We have made the introduction clearer, linking FA back to developmental stability more and the various factors it is related to. Images have also been added to aid understanding and for general appeal. Sections focusing on non-human animals are also now provided. However, there is limited literature on ageing, so this information has been moved under the "other factors" section. Though, we will keep an eye out for sources to add to this. Thanks again! We would be happy if you have any further comments or suggestions on how to improve the article further. NC1328656 (talk) 13:21, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Examples

This article would be much improved if several examples were included. The telegraphic writing style results in the article not conveying a great deal of material that a non-specialist (who does not already know all the facts or ideas about FA) would find interesting or informative.

This is a fascinating subject that deserves a more informative writing style - with examples (of which there are plenty). Oggmus (talk) 07:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

This article could be improved by adding examples of how fluctuating asymmetry (FA) arises i.e. from genetic and environmental insults, including research such as how long a mother has morning sickness during pregnancy could affect her daughters FA. Also the relationship between FA and mate value and mate success could be added BF2510 (talk) 19:24, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

This article could be improved through the addition of sections that use current research to explain the possible relationship of FA with mental functioning, growth rate and general health. Another useful area to include would the link between FA and mating/reproductive success - this could be further illustrated by adding a visual diagram. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Navinadgandhi (talk • contribs) 19:35, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you all for the suggestions. As part of our project, we feel we have improved the article a great deal so far. We have made it more understandable to the lay person, especially the introduction. The following sections, as suggested, are now included: causes of FA (environmental and genetic), health factors associated with FA, and FA and sexual selection (partly covering reproductive success) in both humans and other animals. With regards to pictures and diagrams, it has proved difficult to find these without copyright issues, but some images have been added to aid understanding. Thanks again, and any further comments would be more than welcomed! NC1328656 (talk) 13:54, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Suggestions for ‘Fluctuating asymmetry and individual differences’

This section seems to just be stating a long list of things that FA is associated with, without going into much detail. It might be worth expanding on each element a bit more and restructuring into multiple smaller paragraphs for each factor. For example, for mating it might be worth mentioning research showing FA affects the number of lifetime mates in both females and males (e.g. Thornhill and Gangestad; 1994 among others).

But well done on including so many different aspects in this paragraph! It has improved the overall article a lot. --AH2960 (talk) 16:44, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for your feedback. We have now worked on expanding the information in the article, through elaborating where possible, and also by restructuring as you mentioned. A section on FA and sexual selection is also now provided. Thanks again for your suggestions. NC1328656 (talk) 16:41, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Feedback

This page seems to be coming along nicely. I think the introduction has been well written and the page covers a wide range of topics in fluctuating asymmetry. Here are my suggestions for improvements:

• You mention that FA can be measured, maybe you could expand on this slightly to improve clarity for the reader?
• I think when describing fluctuating asymmetry a picture or diagram would be helpful.
• The section on aging could be expanded (if you hadn't already planned to do so). Or if there is a lack of information on this subject perhaps it could be combined with the section on health?
• There doesn't seem to be anything referencing the links between FA and physical attractiveness, maybe this could be included? Psunej (talk) 20:05, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful suggestions. The section on how FA can be measured has been expanded to give the reader more detail on how this would be carried out. An example image has also been provided to supplement the description of FA. Little research was found when doing literature reviews for the topic of FA and ageing, and therefore this was moved from the health section to "other factors", so as not to give undue weight to a limited range of literature. Since we first started contributing to this article, a section on FA, sexual selection and attractiveness has been added, covering material from both the human and non-human literature. Again, many thanks for your helpful feedack! OR95 (talk) 12:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Peer Review

I have copy-edited the article which involved rephrasing a few parts. My feedback is as follows:

1. Once you have defined the abbreviation for fluctuating asymmetry (FA) once, you do not need to continue to do so. Unless this is in a structured format throughout the page (e.g. once at the start of every new section) I think it is unnecessary.

2. Cite your definition for FA?

3. You talk about genetic factors both in the introduction and in the 'factors causing FA' section. Is this necessary? If so, maybe keep the detailed discussion in the latter section. Later on you also talk about morning sickness in two different sections. Why not pick one?

4. You talk a lot about what FA is associated and/or correlates with but what does this mean? What are the implications or possible explanations?

5. In the individual differences section you could also include the 'What is beautiful is good' study , or information on Halo effect. This would nicely link the point about attractiveness and personality traits as it could explain why attractive individuals, i.e. those with lower FA, are thought to have have more positive personality traits. Just a suggestion - you don't have to!

6. It might be nice to add images of individuals with different levels of FA? :)

In summary, I think this a really informative page. You have covered many areas and so it is just the explanations, and linking of these topics, which is left to do. You have included a lot of good research and linked other wiki pages throughout. I also think the individual differences paragraph is written especially well. Well done! Psuneh (talk) 20:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful comments. The article has been edited to avoid excessive re-definition of the abbreviation for fluctuating asymmetry. More detail has been added to the introduction of FA, and definitions have now been provided. The introduction has also been made into more of a concise overview of the rest of the article, leaving more detailed discussion to the sections below. More emphasis has been placed on why the observed links between FA and a variety of traits occur and how these links have been explained. Images have also been added, including a diagram of what facial FA looks like to make the concept clearer to the reader. Many thanks for the helpful feedback! OR95 (talk) 12:38, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

References

Peer Review and Copy Edit Wikipedia Assignment VI: Fluctuating Asymmetry and Individual Differences

Firstly, the paragraph involves a number of broad examples of fluctuating asymmetry and individual differences. Also, all these examples are supported well by relevant research that has been used appropriately as it's reported in a non-biased way and nothing is incorrectly interpreted from the research used.

However, I think this section could be improved by including more explanations on why some of these individual differences in fluctuating asymmetry actually occur. For example, more research could be included explaining why women find low fluctuating asymmetry attractive in men and include more detail about how this reflects developmental stability. There could also be more research included that explains why fluctuating asymmetry is linked to the Big 5 Personality Traits. Rather than just stating how they're linked to fluctuating asymmetry it would be interesting to see the explanations as to why they are linked.

Overall I think this new section is effective in explaining many examples of fluctuating asymmetry and individual differences but this could be improved by providing more explanations on why these links between fluctuating asymmetry and individual differences are actually found.

EmPhillips (talk) 13:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful comments. The article has been edited to include more detail on explanations of why FA is linked to various factors, including the section on FA and individual differences (although this information has now been moved into "other factors"). This should provide the reader with more information on why FA and various other variables are linked, rather than simply describing correlations. Many thanks for your very helpful feedback! OR95 (talk) 12:42, 18 April 2016 (UTC)