Talk:Foreign relations of Greece

Turkey

Since Dogac's edit, the article contains much of the Turkish POV on the Cyprus crisis, and some statements which are certainly biased. A list of his points that I consider misleading:

• The de facto division of the island, which means that there wasn't (or worse, that there isn't) any other option that the Turkish occupation. Dogac seems to question himself saying that "EOKA does not exist any more. However, the Turkish troops remains in the island...".
• This invasion was justified by the guarantorship agreement between Turkey, Greece and Britain. From the Greek POV, this is more of a pretext than an actual reason.
• EOKA wasn't against the Turkish people of the island, but rather against the British sovereignty. EOKA though had a successor, the organization called EOKA II, which is the one responsible for certain actions against the Turkish people.
• The point that the fall of the Greek junta and the restoration of "constitutional democracy in the island" was thanks to the Turkish invasion... I cannot think of a more offensive statement than this. The restoration of democracy in Greece came with a heavy price, as many democratic Greeks were tortured, exiled or executed during the resistance against the junta. This statement attempts to glorify the Turkish invasion and present it as a tribute to Greek democracy.

Also Dogac has trimmed a sentence in the beginning of the Turkey section which read:

Greece and Turkey enjoyed good relations in the 1930s, but relations began to deteriorate in the mid-1950s, sparked by the Cyprus independence struggle and Turkish violence directed against the Greek minority in Istanbul.

saying that it was "unfair" that to say that any violent acts happened there.

The violence in Istanbul wasn't really sparked by the Cypriots' struggle against the British rule, but rather caused by the fear that an independent Cyprus might want to unite with Greece. However violence did occur. There were riots against the Greek minority and pressure from the Turkish authorities to force the Greeks to leave the country in the mid-fifties. As a result, only a few hundred Greeks live now in Istanbul.

Etz Haim 23:17, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why Turkish minority in Bati Trakya (western thrace) in Greece is referred as "Muslim" or "Turkish Speaking" in the article? I know Greeks are doing this by purpose, but shouldn't (at least) Wikipedia be just and objective? OK maybe not all of the minority are ethnic Turks but the ones who are shouldn't be living in better conditions in a EU member country?

--Gokhan 07:34, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

What is wrong with their conditions of living? Have you ever been there anyway? Thraki is a poor place to live in, for both christians AND muslims. Perhaps they are not allowed to speak Turkish in the streets? Of course they can, and they always did. Since when can Kurds speak their native language in the eastern part of Turkey? And how about me calling this place Kurdistan? You suffer from too much Turkish propaganda man. Just go in Thraki and ask these guys: would they rather live in Turkey instead? "Alex"

I'm not sure about what Gokhan was trying to point at, so cannot comment on it. Just wanted to comment on your response. Calling that place Kurdistan surely will not be welcome, since that place is still under Turkish control and these are the soils of Turkish Republic. Calling that land Kurdistan while there are still PKK terorists struggling to divide our nation with that purpose (without much success) would only serve to being provocative. Saying this does not make me a moron brainwashed by propaganda (as you seem to perceive our people), these are just facts. As a side note, Kurds can speak their own language now, so you can be happy about it... - "Onur" ( 19.04.2006 )

Yes but as we stop for a moment to think about several examples about Greeks' support to PKK kurdish terrorist organization, Alex's reaction is normal for a Greek. Such as;

• The head of PKK Abdullah Ocalan was caught in Kenya after he just left the Greek embassy (having stayed there for a while)
• The Greece and Cyprus passports found on caught PKK terrorists
• Greek support (government, military and parliament) to PKK in money and training
• PKK training camps in Greece
• PKK terrorists having refuge in Athens

etc

I can understand Greek mentality "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach, but it's a pity that EU doesn't see these acts of horror, which still cost lives EVERY DAY in Turkey. --Gokhan 11:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Why can't we all be friends? There is no reason for people to hate each other. We are all human beings. --Ikariotis

"their idiosyncratic views on plane spotting"

See heading... what?? :) I don't understand what is that about. --Joy [shallot] 18:47, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, this is about the area of airspace described as the "FIR Athens". There is some controversy about this subject, as Turkey does not recognize the whole area claimed by Greece. As a result, Turkish fighting airplanes spotted flying over the Aegean islands make headlines in the Greek media quite often. Whether this makes the Greeks "idiosyncratic on plane spotting" is a matter of POV rather than an actual fact. I'll be back on the FIR subject when I have more information in my hands.

If it's in the initial paragraph, it needs to be explained. (Or removed.) --Joy [shallot]

Also, I have to note that "Megali Idea" and "Great Greece" are unrelated. "Great Greece" was never part of the "Megali Idea" claims. Etz Haim 03:58, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I believe this is the actual relevance of mentioning the term Megali. The ancient meanings are only tangentially relevant to the foreign relations of modern Greece, whereas it does seem to have some direct relevance to the Greek-Turkish relations in the last century. --Joy [shallot]

"Megali" means "great". Great Greece (Magna Graecia) is a historical term, which was used mainly by the Romans, not the Greeks, and meant the greater area around the greek colony of Graia. Actually, this is why the rest of the world calls us "Greeks", while we call ourselves "Hellenes" (Έλληνες). The Great Idea was a nationalistic ideology. There's no connection between these two, apart from the word "great", so please do not jump into conclusions. Etz Haim 10:26, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, okay, I separated the sections about the two things now. The overtone of the adjective "Great" when used with regard to territories should be self-evident... --Joy [shallot]

Joy, please, assume some good faith on the Greeks (and the Romans, too) who were unfortunate enough to got stuck with "Greek" as their international name, thanks to the Roman "Magna Graecia". There are no Greek territorial claims against Italy since 275 BC, when Pyrrhus of Epirus lost his battle. Loosen up :) Etz Haim 12:02, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I know, it wasn't my intention to link the two concepts on the merit of the applicability (obviously one is in a completely different context from the other), I was merely going after the same word ("megali"). You explained that the word doesn't really have much relevance (and thank you for that) so I've now distanced the two terms in the article.

Overall the purpose of the glossary in this article is rather vague... maybe we should merge it all into a coherent historical overview section. --Joy [shallot]

The phrase "their idiosyncratic views on plane spotting" refers to the fact that plane spotting is a hobby that is almost unknown in Greece and regarded as spying. There is a reference to it in the Wikipedia plane spotting article. The following references give more detail and you can search the BBC news website for more.

• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2491395.stm
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2397061.stm
• http://www.f-t-a.freeserve.co.uk/reports/reflections_on_kalamata.htm

That phrase "their idiosyncratic views on plane spotting" is too obscure to be informative. It should be modified or removed.

Bobblewik  (talk) 11:17, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've added a blurb about this in the article, highlighting two factoids that seem to make it a foreign relations issue rather than just something internal: that it's a crime in .gr but not elsewhere, and that it has relevance to Interpol records. --Joy [shallot] 11:44, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, no, this is not a foreign relations issue. This is a paradox of how the Greek police works, not the Greek law itself, and fortunately has not lead to any conviction in any Greek court. Undoubtedly these prosecutions should not have happened in the first place. But also note that other countries implement measures to control piecies of information reserved for their military, so this is not exclusive to Greece. Do you REALLY think this deserves such a special mention in this article? The FIR is an existing issue, that has caused a lot of tension in the Greek-Turkish relations. Nothing similar has happened with plane spotting. Etz Haim 12:02, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A more careful look at the "Aircraft spotting" article has made me partially review my thoughts on this one. Although I still question myself whether this belongs to this article or not, right now I feel appalled by the behaviour of the Greek authorities towards the plane spotters. Thanks for bringing it up anyway. Etz Haim 12:23, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, it is rather borderline to foreign relations, I found those couple of factoids but that's about it. It could possibly be moved to some page that outlines how the Greek legislature/police/military works, but I don't believe we have one such page for Greece... I suppose nobody would shed a tear if you removed the blurb altogether, this discussion here and the note in the aircraft spotting article could well be considered a sufficient coverage. --Joy [shallot]

Please note that the arrested plane spotters had been repeatedly warned against taking photographs of a military installation, which is prohibited in Greece. Plane spotters away from military installations are never bothered and certainly not considered spies.

I am gong to remove the plane spotting issue. In looking over about a dozen articles from US, EU and respected academic quarterlies, this appears nowhwere, even in sources that break down over 20 categories of foreign relations issues of Greece. It is not even mentioned. It is not only not a category, it is not an issue.DaveHM 04:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

United States

The article, as presently written, is wildly biased against the US, with lots of tendentious language.

Would you be more specific on this one? Use four tildes (~~~~) to sign your comments. Etz Haim 23:12, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Moreover, the view of neo-fascists versus freedom fighters is wildly inaccurate. After World War II the resistance split into the regular, government army, and the communist guerilla forces.

I have edited the article to address some of your concearns. Also, I'd appreciate it if you became a registered user and signed your comments. Etz Haim 00:24, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the previous critic. The article is heavily biased against the United States. In particular, the attempts at humor and sarcasm are highly inappropriate in an encylopedia entry. 68.100.106.83 09:23, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The entire "United States" section is wildely biased and not represntative historic fact or even the concensus of Greek historians. The text section on anti-Americanism is way off the mark, it should emphasize the junta, not the civil war.DaveHM 04:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Eastern Thrace

Eastern Thrace redirects to this article. Why? --Bjarki 01:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to know the same thing. edolen1 16:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's your answer. When you went looking for "Eastern Thrace", what did you expect to get? Jkelly 17:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Reordering list

The listing, with the Macedonia issue first is niether in order of importance as consitantly cited in journals, or even in alphabetic order: Proper ordering of Foreign relations of Greece would be EU, Turkey, Macedonian Issue, Albania, followed by minor issues such as cultural artifacts (Elgin marbles)DaveHM 04:38, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Jkelly 05:21, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Istanbul

This article claims that the name "Istanbul" derives from the Greek expression "is in poli", "to the city". This seems unlikely. Why would such an odd expression be used to name the town? That Istanbul is a corruption of Constantinople (by way of [Ko]stan[tino]pol[is]) seems more reasonable. If the claim is true, please provide some authority. +++Z Skull 207.118.64.102 05:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

After occupation, turks changed all the old greek words to the turkish new ones in anatolia. Turkish sources says it is derved from Islambul. And really, many of turkish town have name ending with -bul, -bul is derived form of old turkish -balık, meaning city. Eg: balíkesir (capturedcity) etc. I may be wrong, any turk? --User:Touby 11:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer is here [1]. Elikarag (talk) 20:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Serbia

Should Greek support for Serbia be mentioned at all? – Zntrip 04:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely, as Greeks and Serbs have great relations. Some even call them the "Orthodox Brothers" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.164.89.92 (talk) 07:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, religion has nothing to do with the diplomatic relations between the two countries, so no point mentioning it. Walnutjk (talk) 00:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Consistency: FYROM should be referred as such in this article

Greece's foreign relations with the Republic are exclusively under the name FYROM. See also how FYROM is referred to in international organizations articles.--Avg (talk) 20:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a branch of either the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs or any international organization, but a project of the Wikimedia Foundation. Thus, we are not bound to follow the naming practices of the said ministery or organizations, but the ones we established for ourselves in our own naming conventions policy.

Our naming conventions (& the advantages of internal consistency mentioned there & in our Manual of Style) indicate that in this article the country in question should be referred to as either "Republic of Macedonia" or plain "Macedonia", depending on the immediate context. - Best, Ev (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't make it quite clear then. We have established ourselves after hundreds of hours of collaborative work that the country in question should be referred as fYRoM when the subject of the article refers to it as fYRoM. Suddenly this MoS was proclaimed dead by FP and you can see what has followed. This thing doesn't seem to be recognized, a lot of people think that it is the "FYROM" editors who are edit warring against consensus. Well it is the other way around, considering what the status quo was. Throwing in the bin so many hours of work just because you disagree with the outcome is despicable, but here's where we are.--Avg (talk) 19:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The Manual of Style for Macedonia-related articles (MOSMAC) was never satisfactory, because it allowed for exceptions aimed specifically at satisfying the editors that supported the foreign policy stance of the Greek government. In doing so, MOSMAC differed from our general naming conventions and from the spirit behind the Manual of Style's general principle of internal consistency, and infringed the core neutral point of view policy.

Originally intended to be a guideline, MOSMAC failed to generate consensus in those key details; parts of it were never more than the description of a termporarly tolerated flawed status quo. The very summary guidance you link to states that "[i]n articles dealing only with the internal affairs of Greece[, n]o consensus [was ever reached]."

MOSMAC does not represent a consensus on the issue. Do not mistake the temporary tolerance (based on the nature of Wikipedia) of a flawed status quo with acceptance of it. - Regards, Ev (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject - Bilateral relations

There is now a upstart WikiProject to establish a concensus about WP's International bilateral relations articles, including "X-Y (country) relations" articles, at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Bilateral international relations. Interested parties should add their names at Wikipedia:WikiProject International relations/Bilateral relations task force if they wish to play a part in the discussions or have an Interest in this going forward. Thank you for your attention. CaribDigita (talk) 23:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Bilateral chart

It is a huge chart, and not an attractive one, that duplicates what is already in the bottom infobox. Do we really need a link that is already duplicated in the infobox at the bottom? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 08:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Alternate Foreign Minister

I noticed that since PASOK formed the government, the Prime Minister also assumed the position of Foreign Minister, and then there is an Alternate Foreign Minister (Dimitris Droustas), with possibly some Deputy Foreign Minister(s). Could someone explain this situation please? Thanks. – Kaihsu (talk) 14:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Palestine and FYROM

This article has no mention of the long-standing relations between Greece and the country of Palestine.

Internationally the accepted name for the Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia is exactly that, FYROM. There is no recognised country called 'Republic of Macedonia'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.156.242 (talk) 13:02, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The Republic of Macedonia will continue to be listed as "Republic of Macedonia" regardless of what Greece recognizes it as (WP:NCMAC). There is a reference to what Greece recognizes the Republic of Macedonia as in the introduction as well as the article itself. --Philly boy92 (talk) 02:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Albania

The section on Albania is heavily biased and misleading. I suggest that references be provided or otherwise to be written in a less biased way. One small example is the paragraph stating that both countries were in a cease fire due to declaration of war from Albania during the WWII. Note that only Greece has that law since Albania was occupied in April 1939 by Italy and its foreign ministry suppressed. Also the Allies considered Albania a friendly power (due to its resistance). Or don't revise it... this is Wikipedia after all. --Purusbonum (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about the validity of this "officially still at war" thing, since there is no source to back it up, but keep in mind that Albania was not annexed by Italy in 1939: officially there was a distinct Albanian Kingdom in personal union with Italy, with an Albanian government, Albanian Fascist party, etc. Of course it was for all intents and purposes an Italian puppet, but de jure both Italy "and" Albania declared war on Greece in 1940 (there were even some purely Albanian units in the invasion army, although they distinctly lacked enthusiasm). And given the chaotic conditions that prevailed in both Albania and Greece after 1943, the Cold War etc, relations were frosty to non-existent. This was probably regarded as a non-issue and quite likely the 1989 thing was a pure formality, much like Montenegro and Japan still being at war after 100 years... There's a nice list on this, although I don't see the Greco-Italian War featuring in it. Constantine ✍ 14:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Germany

Can we begin to add content about the "Fingergate" fiasco which broke forth in German news media on March 16, 2015? See: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102510745 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Untermenschlich-22 (talk • contribs) 14:32, 17 March 2015 (UTC) Also see the original German TV footage of Varoufakis' appearance on the interview show on March 15, Sunday, 2015 at:

Hardly the most important issue in Greek foreign policy. It might be (somewhat) notable in the dedicated Germany–Greece relations article as an example of the current poor official relations, though. Constantine ✍ 16:51, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

References

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POV Check Tag and link to Macedonia Naming Conventions

I have noticed a POV Check Tag was on the article's lead for many years but although it promtly asked to refer to Talk page for info about it, it does not explicly say what exact was the POV issue. If you believe I did a mistake to remove the POV Check Tag from this article and/or that the POV Check should stay at place, feel free to restore it yourself, and I could appreciate if can you point out on what exactly the POV issues are / where are they located, so we can have our attention on them and address them efficiently and quickly.

I shall clarify to all visitors and editors of the page that if you are having disagreements over the Macedonia / FYROM naming policies, please abide by the rules Wikipedia has established for the solution of this problem: please check the following article: Wikipedia: Macedonia Naming Conventions. Have a good day. --SilentResident (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6AKjqcVfy?url=http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Turkey/ to http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Turkey/

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Outdated Content

In this aspect, the text in the beggining has lagged behind. First of all, Greece no longer has good relations with Russia (Greece enforced embargo and so did Russia, Greece accused Russia of spying on it) or Albania (Albania continuously harasses its Greek minority and claims Greek lands). On top of that, I believe that Greece's special relation with Cyprus shouldn't just be a "strong tie". LightningLighting (talk) 20:28, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

The points about Albania are incorrect. Please provide references or refrain from editing based on your assumption. The Albanian state does not have any claims on Greece, let alone Greek islands. And the two countries, irrespective of ethnic incidents on both sides of the border, maintain close ties. This is readily promoted on the Greek and Albanian MFA websites which you can see for yourself. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.203.253 (talk) 22:33, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Greece & Albania

Individuals should refrain from removing or editing Albania, on the basis of personal bias and beliefs.

The two nations and peoples share a long history which includes complex relations, which are intertwined and play a significant role in the two states and region.

For better understanding of Greco-Albanian affairs, those using this article should conduct research elsewhere to avoid political, nationalistic and ethnic bias and truly get a better, in-depth and clearer picture of Greece-Albania affairs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.203.253 (talk) 22:32, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)