Talk:Francesco Totti/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Lemonade51 (talk · contribs) 21:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I'll take this one.

• Serious issues with the lead. Think it could be trimmed down to four paragraphs for a start. Per WP:LEAD, we don't normally cite sentences in the intro unless they are quotes because the lead serves as a summary; everything should be covered and cited accordingly below. The other thing is it doesn't good job summarising Totti's career, it just lists his achievements and nicknames. Nothing about his early life, how he joined Roma or when he broke into the side. Thierry Henry and Lionel Messi are probably two good examples of how to structure a lead; have a look and take some ideas on board.
• "Roma's greatest player ever," should that not be "Roma's greatest ever player"?
• "Totti is currently the top active goalscorer in Serie A", what does this mean?
• "After he first came to the attention of scouts"
• "his mother refused a lucrative offer from A.C. Milan so as to keep him in his home town," in order to
• Refs for 'Early seasons'?
• Not exactly keen about the '[manager] era' subheadings, think years are better
• "After three years at the youth team, Totti made his first appearance for Roma's senior side in Serie A at the age of sixteen, when coach Vujadin Boškov called him on in the 2–0 away victory against Brescia on 28 March 1993," firstly that should be 'three years in the youth team'. Secondly, 'called him on' suggests he was a sub, is that correct? If so, I'd change it to 'brought him on', if not 'named him as part of the team....'. Lastly, where's the reference to support this?
• "1995, Totti had become a regular in Roma's starting line-up and scored 16 goals during the next three seasons, and publicly praised his manager Mazzone for helping him to develop as a footballer," ref?
• "After Mazzone left Roma, Totti worked with Carlos Bianchi, and also enjoyed a short-spell with one of the most important managers in the club's history, Nils Liedholm." and again, needs ref.
• "Totti's years under Zeman..." full name needed
• "From a mental perspective, he displayed a greater responsibility for the team, and was presented with the number 10 jersey." needs ref
• "scoring as many goals as possible," tad cliche. Just state how many goals he scored
• "On 9 November 1997, he scored his first Serie A brace," what's a brace? A 'good article' should limit football lexicon where possible, for the benefit of general readers. The whole sentence needs citing.
• "He had an excellent start to the season," a tad POV. That sentence and pretty much the rest of the paragraph has no citations.
• Why did Zeman leave? I know 'comprehensiveness' isn't a big issue for the GA criteria, but context would help.

That's as far as I went reviewing. Don't think this is anywhere near GA standard unfortunately. I have serious concerns about sourcing and prose – naturally I would quick fail something like this, but I'll leave the review open to hear your response. In the meantime, I would advise you to focus on polishing the text. Go over the sources and make sure the material in the article is covered by them. Should there be no response in seven days, I'll close the review. Lemonade51 (talk) 21:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Summary of fixes:

• Serious issues with the lead. Think it could be trimmed down to four paragraphs for a start. Per WP:LEAD, we don't normally cite sentences in the intro unless they are quotes because the lead serves as a summary; everything should be covered and cited accordingly below. The other thing is it doesn't good job summarising Totti's career, it just lists his achievements and nicknames. Nothing about his early life, how he joined Roma or when he broke into the side. Thierry Henry and Lionel Messi are probably two good examples of how to structure a lead; have a look and take some ideas on board.
• "Roma's greatest player ever," should that not be "Roma's greatest ever player"?  Done
• "Totti is currently the top active goalscorer in Serie A", what does this mean?  Done changed to: Totti is the top goalscorer amongst currently active players in Serie A
• "After he first came to the attention of scouts"  Done
• "his mother refused a lucrative offer from A.C. Milan so as to keep him in his home town," in order to  Done
• Refs for 'Early seasons'?  Done
• Not exactly keen about the '[manager] era' subheadings, think years are better  Done thanks to another editor
• "After three years at the youth team, Totti made his first appearance for Roma's senior side in Serie A at the age of sixteen, when coach Vujadin Boškov called him on in the 2–0 away victory against Brescia on 28 March 1993," firstly that should be 'three years in the youth team'. Secondly, 'called him on' suggests he was a sub, is that correct? If so, I'd change it to 'brought him on', if not 'named him as part of the team....'. Lastly, where's the reference to support this?  Done fixed wording and another editor added refs
• "1995, Totti had become a regular in Roma's starting line-up and scored 16 goals during the next three seasons, and publicly praised his manager Mazzone for helping him to develop as a footballer," ref?  Done refed and tweaked managerial praise
• "After Mazzone left Roma, Totti worked with Carlos Bianchi, and also enjoyed a short-spell with one of the most important managers in the club's history, Nils Liedholm." and again, needs ref.  Done - Removed, probably not needed anyway
• "Totti's years under Zeman..." full name needed  Done
• "From a mental perspective, he displayed a greater responsibility for the team, and was presented with the number 10 jersey." needs ref  Done
• "scoring as many goals as possible," tad cliche. Just state how many goals he scored  Done - Removed, not needed
• "On 9 November 1997, he scored his first Serie A brace," what's a brace? A 'good article' should limit football lexicon where possible, for the benefit of general readers. The whole sentence needs citing.  Done - Removed, not needed
• "He had an excellent start to the season," a tad POV.  Done That sentence and pretty much the rest of the paragraph has no citations.
• Why did Zeman leave? I know 'comprehensiveness' isn't a big issue for the GA criteria, but context would help.  Done thanks to another editor

Fixed up the wording issues for now, still need to find more sources. To anyone who finds sources: Just add the {{done}} tag to the issue. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:55, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Some more concerns:

• Again, I'm not sure why his club career is divided into 'managerial eras'. You don't see on Messi's article for instance 'Guardiola era', 'Tito era', etc.
• There are WP:WEIGHT problems throughout the article. For instance the 2004–05 season is covered by two sentences, but 2005–06, 2006–07 and so on are overdetailed and can be trimmed. The problem with player articles is striking the right balance.
• "Despite a disappointing 2004–05 season, which saw Capello leave for Juventus and Roma slip to eighth place while making four coaching changes during the course of the season, including Cesare Prandelli, Rudi Völler, Luigi Delneri and Bruno Conti, Totti maintained consistent form by scoring fifteen goals, among which was his 100th Serie A goal against Internazionale, on 3 October 2004, with a free kick from 30 metres," ridiculously long and bloated sentence. The whole paragraph is not even sourced.
• "Roma's new coach for the 2005–06 season, Luciano Spalletti, went with a 4–2–3–1 formation..." you could wikilink the formation, and likewise when other formations are introduced.
• "Despite his new attacking role, Totti would not remain forward waiting for crosses or passes from team-mates, but would rather drop deep to pick up the ball, thus creating space for the attacking midfielders and wingers to making offensive runs, to whom Totti was able to provide assists; this role would later be described as a "false-9"," another bloated sentence. No source, smacks of original research.
• "In this new position, Totti continued to score frequently, totalling 15 goals in 24 matches," is this the right word?
• "At one point during this streak, the team won 11 consecutive games." source?
• "In January 2006, on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum held in Davos, Pelé praised Totti, calling him "the best player in the world"," why is this included here? Distorts the biography and would be better place in a legacy or achievement section.
• "Totti was at risk of missing the 2006 World Cup, but returned to the side on 11 May...," 11 May 2089? 1980? Given you've written out years in other sentences, best to do the same here per WP:CONSISTENT.
• "Roma's 3–1 Coppa Italia Final defeat to Internazionale," you need to be consistent with how nerazzurro are referred to – is it Internazionale or Inter Milan?
• "Totti produced a notable goal with a left-volley shot from a very tight angle, voted the best goal of the season, and it was included in the top ten goals from incredible angles drafted by The Sun," The Sun? Not exactly considered a high-quality reliable source, nor nothing to write home about.
• "On 27 May 2007, Totti became Serie A top scorer with 26 goals" why is the date important here?

Stopped here. Pointless of me to list every unsourced statement. Despite the valiant efforts of the editors above, I'm failing this because the issues run deeper than prose and sourcing. There are problems with the article's weight, too much detail and significance given in later seasons, when it could easily be trimmed. Therefore the article's comprehensiveness is misleading. The prose is very long-winded and bloated in parts, and unfortunately I don't have the time to make copyedits. I would advise you (should you wish to have another crack) to sort out the writing. Sentences must be written in a neutral tone and it has to be clear and consistent to all readers. Go over the sources and make sure the material in the article is covered by it. Have the article run by someone here or here before making another nomination. Feel free to have this article reassessed if you think the review is wrong. Lemonade51 (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

@Lemonade51: Your concerns are valid, and they are understood. We will try to give it a good polish in the meantime. I was hoping you were going to leave this open a little longer for corrections, as you did say we had seven days above... But nonetheless, the amount of work that needs to be done is probably still too high. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee:, I meant seven days to respond. I thought at first glance this would need a few corrections here and there, but on closer inspection the problems were wide-ranging and I didn't want to turn this into a peer review. It's an OK article on a high-profile footballer, it just needs a good trim for starters. You also need to pay close attention to prose and sourcing. Once you've done that feel free to ping me, I'd happily give more pointers (if I'm not busy!). The great thing about Wikipedia is there's WP:NORUSH, especially when it comes to GA noms. This experience will undoubtedly benefit the article, and your hard work will pay off. Lemonade51 (talk) 18:06, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Summary of fixes for future reference:

• Again, I'm not sure why his club career is divided into 'managerial eras'. You don't see on Messi's article for instance 'Guardiola era', 'Tito era', etc.  Done
• There are WP:WEIGHT problems throughout the article. For instance the 2004–05 season is covered by two sentences, but 2005–06, 2006–07 and so on are overdetailed and can be trimmed. The problem with player articles is striking the right balance.
• "Despite a disappointing 2004–05 season, which saw Capello leave for Juventus and Roma slip to eighth place while making four coaching changes during the course of the season, including Cesare Prandelli, Rudi Völler, Luigi Delneri and Bruno Conti, Totti maintained consistent form by scoring fifteen goals, among which was his 100th Serie A goal against Internazionale, on 3 October 2004, with a free kick from 30 metres," ridiculously long and bloated sentence. The whole paragraph is not even sourced.  Done
• "Roma's new coach for the 2005–06 season, Luciano Spalletti, went with a 4–2–3–1 formation..." you could wikilink the formation, and likewise when other formations are introduced.  Done
• "Despite his new attacking role, Totti would not remain forward waiting for crosses or passes from team-mates, but would rather drop deep to pick up the ball, thus creating space for the attacking midfielders and wingers to making offensive runs, to whom Totti was able to provide assists; this role would later be described as a "false-9"," another bloated sentence. No source, smacks of original research.  Done
• "In this new position, Totti continued to score frequently, totalling 15 goals in 24 matches," is this the right word?  Done
• "At one point during this streak, the team won 11 consecutive games." source?  Done - Removed, more for a season article
• "In January 2006, on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum held in Davos, Pelé praised Totti, calling him "the best player in the world"," why is this included here? Distorts the biography and would be better place in a legacy or achievement section.  Done - Removed
• "Totti was at risk of missing the 2006 World Cup, but returned to the side on 11 May...," 11 May 2089? 1980? Given you've written out years in other sentences, best to do the same here per WP:CONSISTENT.  Done
• "Roma's 3–1 Coppa Italia Final defeat to Internazionale," you need to be consistent with how nerazzurro are referred to – is it Internazionale or Inter Milan?  Done
• "Totti produced a notable goal with a left-volley shot from a very tight angle, voted the best goal of the season, and it was included in the top ten goals from incredible angles drafted by The Sun," The Sun? Not exactly considered a high-quality reliable source, nor nothing to write home about.  Done - Removed
• "On 27 May 2007, Totti became Serie A top scorer with 26 goals" why is the date important here?  Done

Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:42, 27 July 2016 (UTC)