Talk:Francis Bourgeois (trainspotter)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 19:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that trainspotter Francis Bourgeois is currently studying engineering at the University of Nottingham? Source: "A 20-year-old engineering student at the University of Nottingham, his TikTok account has nothing to do with a doped-up Ewan McGregor wreaking havoc with his mates, or Victoria Paris posting a video of her new I.AM.GIA ​‘fit." [1]
  • ALT1: ... that when trainspotter Francis Bourgeois began secondary school, he hid his love for trains in order to fit in with his peers? Source: "He moved to Frome in rural Somerset aged 7, and after starting secondary school, Bourgeois felt compelled to suppress his interest in trains in order to fit in." [2]
  • ALT2: ... that when trainspotter Francis Bourgeois was younger, he used to go to the Willesden Junction station and then go home and draw the trains he saw from memory? Source: "Where did his fascination with trains come from? It all stemmed from his childhood in Willesden Junction in London – one of the busiest train junctions in all of London. “All of these trains moving through at once sort of really fascinated me,” he admitted, later adding that he would try to draw pictures of the trains he saw from memory." [3]
  • ALT3: ... that trainspotter Francis Bourgeois states that people have started to recognize him in real life from his videos on TikTok? Source: "He was walking past a Nottingham pub a few weeks later when he heard his name being called. “I saw a group of lads all stood up and waving at me. At that point I realised that people were recognising me in the street because they had seen my videos, which is pretty bonkers.”" [4] (archive due to paywall)
  • ALT4: ... that trainspotter Francis Bourgeois states that attending university has allowed his passions to flourish? Source: "“I didn’t really know what people would think,” he says, thoughtfully. ​“Coming to university, I’ve turned a new page and allowed my passions to [flourish] and not be held down. It’s made me a lot happier.”" [5]

• Comment: This is my first DYK and second article, so comments and improvements are appreciated. Thanks!

Created by Wizzito (talk). Self-nominated at 14:54, 27 November 2021 (UTC).

• Comment: I have a few suggestions for possibly more interesting hooks:

• ALT5: ... that Francis Bourgeois is pursuing full-time trainspotting? Source: The Face
• This would have to be incorporated into the article, but the same The Face article says "Usually dressed in vintage train gear – an overcoat from the ​’50s, an old driver’s watch secured on eBay and a WW2 inspector’s hat, to name a few of his signature pieces", which sounds interesting to me. Any way to incorporate that?

Regards, eviolite (talk) 01:38, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Not too bad Eviolite. I drafted up this:
• ALT6: ... that Francis Bourgeois usually dresses in vintage train gear? Source: The Face wizzito | say hello! 07:25, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I recommend scrapping ALT0 and ALT4, to reduce the number of possible hooks. I find those two to be the weakest of the bunch. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:07, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I decided to finally get this DYK moving (was super confused as to what to do for a month). Removed 3 hooks I found to be weak. Not sure if adding the train gear thing would be undue. wizzito | say hello! 01:38, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Alt5 and Alt3 are probably the best of the bunch. wizzito | say hello! 01:40, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

• Full review needed now that some hooks have been removed from consideration. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:07, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• Long enough, new enough by virtue of nom date, eligible. Seems to be appropriately cited to acceptable sources. Neutral and free of plagiarism. Hooks are all of good length and sourced – any that aren't struck would be fine, so I'll leave that up to the promoter. Approved! ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 18:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Tweaked ALT3 to T:DYK/P4

Real name / birth date / music production?

Many sources (mostly tabloids and unreliable blogs) have talked about the supposed real name and birth date of Francis (not sharing here per WP:BLP, but it can be easily looked up). The only sources that might be OK that reported this are The Tab, Manchester Evening News, and HITC, but I'm still wary of adding it unless Francis says so himself. There's been a lot of IP addresses attempting to add this, though. There's also a few, also mostly unreliable, sources reporting that he is or was a music producer. Thoughts? wizzito | say hello! 12:39, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

FRANCIS BOURGEOIS LIMITED Company number 13768290

You should probably add the following information that “Francis Bourgeois” is a character adapted by Luke Nelson whom has copyrighted his character name via the government website as “video production”;

Accounts

First accounts made up to 30 November 2022 due by 26 August 2023

Confirmation statement

First statement date 25 November 2022 due by 9 December 2022

Nature of business (SIC)

59112 - Video production activities 82.132.245.96 (talk) 07:36, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

That is not a reliable source 82.132.245.96. All sources that have reported this are tabloid presses and unreliable blogs, which are not considered reliable per our policy on biographies of living persons. wizzito | say hello! 08:50, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, how do you know that this is his real name, besides unreliable tabloids telling you so? It could be the name of a representative of his or someone else. wizzito | say hello! 08:52, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Further non-tabloid sources such as Variety Magazine (a U.S. based entertainment news source) have also referred to Luke Nicholson as Francis's real name, would suggest updating article accordingly. --Xboxtravis7992 (talk) 02:28, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@Xboxtravis7992: I've consulted MULTIPLE admins and people who know BLP on this issue, and they tell me not to (and that if I'm ever in doubt about something in a BLP article to not add it). See Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive333#Supposed_real_name_and_birthdate_of_Francis_Bourgeois_(trainspotter). wizzito | say hello! 13:52, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Sceptre (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

---

• Francis Bourgeois (trainspotter) → Francis Bourgeois
• Francis Bourgeois → Francis Bourgeois (painter)

– The article about the trainspotter is the WP:Primary topic by a long shot. According to Toolforge's pageviews analysis, this article has an average of 992 views a day and 20,833 views in total, while the article about the painter Francis Bourgeois has an average of 229 views a day with 4,816 views in total, and most of the traffic to the painter's article is likely people looking for the trainspotter; as Toolforge also shows a daily average of 6 views to the painter's article before the trainspotter became well-known.

Daily pageviews of both articles (copy and paste as the links mess with the template): https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Francis_Bourgeois|Francis_Bourgeois_(trainspotter)

Daily pageviews of the painter's article before the trainspotter became well-known: https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2020-01-01&end=2021-09-14&pages=Francis_Bourgeois wizzito | say hello! 04:29, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support 2nd, the trainspotter's interest seems to be fairly recent (from October) and while the views are 21,056 v 4,656[[6]] the painter was getting more daily views 20 days ago so I'd say disambuguate. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:03, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support disambiguation/no primary topic for the time being, with the potential to have a primary-topic-establishing move later. The trainspotter is overwhelmingly the colloquial primary topic -- the fact the painter was recently getting more daily views should be considered in the context he has the undisambiguated title, and regular RM participants know this alone gets a substantial boost in view count. Wizzito's note that the painter's views increased rapidly as the trainspotter became prominent is also strongly worth considering. That said, "colloquial primary topic" and "Wikipedia primary topic" come apart a bit, and I don't think there would be much appetite for a move to give a recently popular figure the undisambiguated title without it being much clearer he should hold it (i.e. by such a lead continuing for a longer period with both titles disambiguated). For the time being, I think the safe move is to make Francis Bourgeois a disambiguation page with the trainspotter and the painter both having disambiguated titles, and reassess the situation in a year or so. Certainly the painter shouldn't have an undisambiguated title, though. Vaticidalprophet 10:20, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment:

a) Take an example 'Kite flying' is an hobby in certain geography. A Kite flying hobbyist gets sudden popularity and notability in his own geography but is enough to bring enough hits on Wikipedia article in his name. There is older notable painter having same name same geography since not being of immediate interests number of hits for his article are low but are coming from global audience.

b) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia catering to global audience or local audience?

c) I do accept that 'encyclopedias serve objective of fulfilling curiosity where information/ knowledge is available.Serves indirect but substantial purpose of 'do you know?' and that Measure of 'curiosity' brings in measure of 'generational time value'. So it would be okay for prioritization be changed with generational change.

d) But how fast we can calculate generational change, or we give in to the populism.

Encyclopedia can give in to 'generational time value' of curiosity but can not give way to populism there is nuanced difference in both.

Global should be prioritized over local. IMHO.

Last but not least older usage of the title may have been linked from other websites and sudden change in content under that title can lead to confusion of audience from previous links.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 11:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure this argument works in your favour. Trainspotting is a global hobby and Tiktok is (infamously, even) a global app. The painter has more ILLs, but ILLs are a proxy for article age as much or more as they are for global interest, and it only has a small handful (very few, in fact, for a 2005 article). Vaticidalprophet 11:32, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I do not have interest in any of the topic being discussed but I am primarily interested in getting points discussed as part of encyclopedic philosophy. So it does not matter if any of my points need to be corrected, healthy discussion taking place is very nice. Thanks for your response.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 11:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Pure WP:RECENTISM. The painter was knighted, for crying out loud, and was the court painter. Very, very clear long-term significance. Compared to a young trainspotter who's been big on social media for a year or two and will probably have disappeared back into obscurity in another year or two. This is Wikipedia populism at its worst. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment. "Wikipedia populism at its worst"? The article about the painter was incredibly obscure (and as such we can assume that Google results/etc. were the same way) before this trainspotter became famous. wizzito | say hello! 20:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean the article wasn't much looked at or the painter is obscure? A knighted British court painter clearly isn't particularly obscure. And the nature of Wikipedia and the internet means that it is a given that people who are popular at the moment will have high pageviews. It certainly doesn't mean that the trainspotter is far more notable than the painter. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Wasn't much looked at, Necrothesp. I wouldn't mind turning the undisambiguated title to a disambiguation page (where the trainspotter is named as it is now, and the painter's article is named "Francis Bourgeois (painter)") as Vaticidalprophet said. wizzito | say hello! 16:24, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

There are quite a lot of obscure knighted people out there. It is evidently a disservice to readers if people searching a given name are overwhelmingly looking for one article and not being directed to it. "Recentism" is not relevant per se to "no ptopic" moves rather than ptopic moves -- it's about navigation. If one figure is more historically significant, but people navigating are overwhelmingly looking for another, placing the undisambiguated name at a disambiguation page serves the reader better. Vaticidalprophet 17:22, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

There are, but most of them weren't the court painter to the British court! And most of the alternatives aren't trainspotters on social media! We need a bit of long-term perspective here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

We do, and we also need "what page are people trying to get to?" perspective. If one topic has more long-term significance but the other dwarfs it in terms of what people are looking up by several orders of magnitude, neither should hold the primary topic -- having the former hold the primary topic means people aren't ending up at the article they want. Vaticidalprophet 10:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Necrothesp. The court painter clearly has vastly more long-term significance than a recent trainspotter.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
• oppose - a clear case of RECENTism. being in the news (and therefore getting lots of page views) does not make him a primary topic. GiantSnowman 16:43, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Necrothesp. Social media personalities are quite ephemeral. Let’s check back on this in maybe five years. Thriley (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Agreed, an issue of recentism. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as per Amakuru. Secretlondon (talk) 20:02, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Was he a student or was he working?

"Bourgeois is a student at the University of Nottingham studying engineering. He quit his job in November 2021 to pursue trainspotting full-time." Is he a student? What was his job? The two sentences don't seem to connect logically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.130.249.191 (talk) 11:07, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ RS doesn't say anything about that. wizzito | say hello! 02:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)