Talk:Free Republic/Archive 11

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Archive 11

Consensus is not voting.

Consensus is typically reached as a natural product of the editing process; generally someone makes a change or addition to a page, and then everyone who reads the page has an opportunity to either leave the page as it is or change it.

Not revert.Eschoir (talk) 05:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Eschoir please listen. There are already too many references to infighting and purges at Free Republic in the article.

1. Salon.com's Jeff Stein observed in 1999 that: "[A] swelling number of haters have turned up the volume of death threats, gay-bashing, name-calling and conspiracy theories tying the father of Republican front-runner George W. Bush to drug-dealing by the CIA."

2. These shifts signalled internal battles comparable to the nomination controversies of 2007 "as its founder and chief administrator first cleansed commenting ranks of Bush supporters, then, later, rallied to his support."

3. "Sadly, the FRN did not survive the infighting on FR," Johnson wrote.

4. "Starting in April 2007 ... members sympathetic to the former mayor's candidacy claim to have suffered banishment from the site. They were victimized, they say, by a wave of purges designed to weed out any remaining support for the Giuliani campaign…"

Four mentions of infighting and purges is already too many. You made your point. Readers are already constantly reminded of infighting and purges from top to bottom of this article. Your effort to include fifth mention from Scallon article confirms that your conflict of interest prevents you from editing this article as unbiased and detached editor.

Also your effort to include Glennon mention is misleading. Is one expert opinion from Killian document articles your goal? If this is your goal then final conclusion of Peter Tytell in final CBS News report on this issue is more notable: "Tytell concluded ... that (i) the relevant portion of the Superscript Exemplar was produced on an Olympia manual typewriter, (ii) the Killian documents were not produced on an Olympia manual typewriter and (iii) the Killian documents were produced on a computer in Times New Roman typestyle [and that] the Killian documents were not produced on a typewriter in the early 1970s and therefore were not authentic." [4] If other editors here want to use this quote instead then I have no objection. But Glennon quote is misleading. Shibumi2 (talk) 20:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Infighting and purges don't belong in the article at all. Take them out. Also, this page isn't the place to argue with other editors about their conflicts of interest. Let the edits speak for themselves. Lou Sander (talk) 21:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for urging a break in the COI personal attacking.

A remiinder that this article is on probation. "It is expected that the article will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that information contained in it will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources." That means no Freeper postings as sources. Eschoir (talk) 03:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

(EC) Sorry, Lou. That would be a whitewash. I'm not here to whitewash the article. I'm here to bring it into compliance with NPOV. When correcting a POV problem, we have to be careful not to overcompensate.

These are criticisms from noteworthy sources. They have to be fairly represented — not overrepresented, and not underrepresented. Adding the second Scallon quote and the Pein quotes that Eschoir is trying to add would be "overrepresented." Taking out all criticism would be "underrepresented." "Fairly represented" is somewhere in between. Its precise location is debatable. Samurai Commuter (talk) 03:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Happy anniversary! Eschoir (talk) 05:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not Soap Opera Digest. With few exceptions, the comings and goings of the characters, the opinions of the participants, and so forth just aren't important enough to include. Right now, the lead, which is important, more or less sucks. Proposals to improve it are met with trollish gibberish. It's a puzzlement. Lou Sander (talk) 04:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Lou, please draft a new lead the way you want it and post it here. We will discuss it and if you get support for it, please make the edit in the article mainspace. Also, if you want to remove some (but definitely not all) of the "infighting and purges" and other criticisms, please follow the same procedure. You know that certain people will accuse you of whitewashing the article. Try to make sure they don't have any solid ground to stand on.

For everyone else, please follow the same procedure. All changes should be proposed on this page and discussed. If it's clear after a day or two that there are no objections, or if you see one objection but at least one or two other editors stated that they support your proposal, then go ahead and make the edit.

This article is not breaking news. There's no need to rush. Let's have a cup of tea and discuss before making changes, all right? Samurai Commuter (talk) 14:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That offer has been made in the sandbox for weeks, and no one but me has acted upon it.

And the rule is talk before deleting, or 'reverting,' not adding content.

I am seeking a 3rd opinion on sourcing. Stay tuned. Eschoir (talk) 14:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Lawrence Cohen cannot be considered "unbiased" as 3rd opinion. He is trying to get Samurai Commuter banned. He is also trying to get me banned. This is not honorable. Shibumi2 (talk) 17:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:AGF. My edits are fully compliant with policy, while your re-adding material that is not compliant with WP:RS is not. Lawrence Cohen 18:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Case in point: the Pein quotation that you keep adding. When someone else deletes it and you put it back in, you have reverted. Please don't. That edit is not supported by consensus. Pein was talking about the bloggers, meaning Rathergate.com, Little Green Footballs and Powerline. FR is a forum, not a blog, and both Pein and you seem smart enough to know the difference. Pein's comment is irrelevant to FR and creates a negative impression of FR for Wikipedia readers.

Also, Pein was writing before the CBS review panel posted its final report, which contained the Tytell quotation. At the time Pein was writing, questions about the authenticity of the Killian memos still had no conclusive answer and Mary Mapes was still working for CBS News. If Pein had revisited this article a few months later, his lead might have reversed: "on close examination the scene looks less like a case of mob rule than a victory for democracy."

Please remove the Pein quote. Samurai Commuter (talk) 16:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Note: Forum posts are never RS, and Fact tags

No one may remove {{fact}} tags without addressing them. Any editor, however, is free to remove any unsourced material from articles at any time as I did so. Also, per WP:RS, forum posts are not a valid RS at this time. Do not re-add them. Note my edit here. Lawrence Cohen 18:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Forum posts are acceptable under WP:SELFPUB. Shibumi2 (talk) 18:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Disputed. See: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Free Republic.com message board posts as RS. Lawrence Cohen 18:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please see that noticeboard. I've answered your concerns there. Freepers' efforts to stop vandals from disrupting their forum are notable regarding Free Republic and are appropriately sourced to their discussion threads per WP:SELFPUB. Anyone who believes the Freepers are "extremists like Stormfront" should think about letting someone else edit this article. Samurai Commuter (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The events may be notable to their internal subculture, but are not notable for Wikipedia, as we have no coverage by external sources. We simply do not report the internal happenings of some minor internet message board. SELFPUB also has extremely specific limitations on it. Read them again. Lawrence § talk/edits 21:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That's two misconceptions. Your first was that they're "extremists like Stormfront" and now you think they're "some minor internet message board." If you think that's the case, put in your AfD nomination or stubify it, and see what happens. The coverage from external sources is the Scallon article and the Bill O'Reilly quote. Supported by that external coverage, the internal battle against trolls and "agents provocateurs" becomes just as notable as the "infighting and purges" covered in Salon and the New York Observer, so if "infighting and purges" belongs in the article, then so does "agents provocateurs." And what the Freepers are saying about these disruptive trolls also belongs in the article. Samurai Commuter (talk) 22:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Once it's unprotected, I'd be happy to remove any and all material added by banned users, or material that is non-notable, or one-note and limited to trivial matters. Yes, I said they were similar to Stormfront, and Stormfront is a minor fringe group. There is enough coverage at this time for Free Republic to survice an AFD, I think. Any user in good standing is of course free to nominate it for AFD, if desired. We can do that for you, if you would like. Lawrence § t/e 22:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not what I meant. You have said that it's some minor internet message board, that's full of extremists like Stormfront. You seem to be saying that it's not notable and that it doesn't rate a Wikipedia article. So why haven't you nominated it for deletion on your own behalf? Samurai Commuter (talk) 01:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

2004 Elections - What's the point?

What is the point of including this? ...

During the 2004 U.S. Elections, Jerome Corsi, a Swift Boat Vet and co-author of the book Unfit for Command that attacked the Vietnam war record of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, apologized in the national media for comments that he made on Free Republic under the user name "jrlc" "describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile." The posts were never moderated and were discovered and publicized by Media Matters for America..

Some guy posted some stuff, political opponents picked up on it, and he apologized, calling it a joke. It doesn't seem very important, but maybe I'm missing something. Lou Sander (talk) 21:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that I see the encyclopediac value of this section. "Non-notable guy slags famous people, apologizes" isn't a historically useful fact. Lawrence § t/e 21:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The Corsi isn't "non-notable" - he has a Wikipedia biography. The relationship of Corsi to FR was one of the few occasions when FR has been reported on by the major media. From that perspective I'd say it's one of the most notable events mentioned in this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

If what is important is that FR is occasionally reported on in the national media, why doesn't Wikipedia just say:

Postings on Free Republic sometimes gain national attention. During the runup to the 2004 U.S. presidential Elections, author Jerome Corsi posted a series of inflammatory comments on Free Republic. Some of his comments were repeated in national media, drawing an apology from Corsi, who said they were meant as a joke. a Swift Boat Vet and co-author of the book Unfit for Command that attacked the Vietnam war record of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, apologized in the national media for comments that he made on Free Republic under the user name "jrlc" "describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile. The posts were never moderated and were discovered and publicized by Media Matters for America..

The deleted material has a lot of not-very-relevant detail about who the guy is, what his book was about, what his screen name was, selected examples of his inflammatory comments/jokes, etc. IMHO, this isn't germane to an article about the forum in which he embarrassed himself. Lou Sander (talk) 01:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Is FR a reliable source themselves on this matter? If so, to what extent? Lawrence § t/e 22:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Postings by FR members are only suitable as sources for postings by FR members. Postings by the webmaster and non-postings hosted by the site (such as policies and purpose) are good sources for the site as a whole. For the topic of Corsi, only his own postings should be used as sources about himself. The postings of the webmaster may be used for his official view of the matter. But on the whole we should use 3rd-party sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Will, how do you feel about Lawrence Cohen gutting the "Agents Provocateurs" section? And do you believe an FR moderator, talking about the moderators' experiences with trolls and vandals, is sufficiently notable for inclusion in this article? Samurai Commuter (talk) 03:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know which reference includes a known moderator - can you point to the assertion and source? The quote on agents provocateur appears to be from Chronicles (magazine) if so it should go directly to that website, or at least provide a proper citation with only a courtesy link to the FR page. We should avoid characterizing the comments and opinions of posters as much as possible because at some point it becomes original research. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the whole story, but I've seen disputes over the Chronicles citation. If somebody will provide details of where it is, I have special resources I can use to find a copy. If it's not available to me online, I'll find a paper copy, scan it, and post it off-Wiki where all concerned can see it. Lou Sander (talk) 14:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC) PS - The Chronicles web site is down right now. The error message says "Bandwidth Exceeded." Lou Sander (talk) 14:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Consensus for Lawrence Cohen's revert?

Please indicate below whether you support or oppose the final revert (there were so many) by Lawrence Cohen on January 22. Also, please support your position by citing Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Remember, whenever a policy appears to contradict a guideline, policy wins.

• Very strong oppose. Fighting off trolls and vandals (and others such as "MD4Bush" who do not have the best interest of the forum at heart) appears to be a notable part of the Free Republic story. Third party sources include the Scallon "agents provocateurs" quote, the O'Reilly "planted" quote and the Baltimore Sun and Washington Post stories about MD4Bush. With this third party support, the Freepers' statements in their own defense become notable and are acceptable under WP:SELFPUB policy, which trumps WP:RS guideline. Without those, the many strongly worded criticisms from barely notable sources such as Salon and the New York Observer are given too much weight, violating WP:WEIGHT, and should all be deleted per Lou Sander. The Pein "mob rule" quote was about blogs like LGF and Powerline, not forums like FR, so this quote is irrelevant and violates WP:WEIGHT. Please join me in opposing this revert. Samurai Commuter (talk) 03:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Fighting off trolls and vandals (and others There, you've already run onto a definitional problemsuch as "MD4Bush" who do not have the best interest of the forum at heartMD4BUSH was an e-mail scandal and didn't have anything to do with freerepublic's best interest) appears to be a notable part of the Free Republic storyperhaps among those who have been banned without notice or reason for failure to conform with the currently prevailing mobthink, but of course that would be a rare experience, so that set of people would necessarily be small. Third party sources include the Scallon "agents provocateurs" quote which doesn't mention trolls or vandals, and says the problem was pre-2000, the O'Reilly "planted" quote which also doesn't mention trolls or vandals and holds the website responsible for not moderating and the Baltimore Sun and Washington Post stories about MD4Bush an e-mail story. With this third party support, the Freepers' there is no such entiity as 'the Freepers'. What do they have, a Congress?!? statements in their own defense defense? Defense of what? If you want to use a wiki article for public relations problems, you won't succeed. You are advocating advocacy under the banner of NPOV become notable you misspelled "self-serving" hoppa that hepps heaps and are acceptable under WP:SELFPUB policy, which trumps WP:RS guideline. Without those, the many strongly worded criticisms you misspelled sourced observations from barely notable sources such as Salon and the New York Observer are given too much weight, violating WP:WEIGHT just because the articlee on Lizzie Borden spends a lot of time on shameful things she has done, doesn't mean we have to make up nice things to say about her so her matricide and patricide are not given undue weight., and should all be deleted per Lou Sander. The Pein "mob rule" quote was about blogs like LGF and Powerline which consist of two or three named people, not forums like FR which consist of hundreds, if not thousands, of anonymous members of a potential and bragged about and pictured and Natalie Mainesed mob, so this quote is irrelevant and violates WP:WEIGHT. Please join me 'and the puppets in opposing this revert.

• Double plus oppose consensus by puppetry IF such a thing were to occur . . . And support immediate lawful removal of unsourced content Eschoir (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Abstain. If there are problems with trolls and vandals, and if those problems are important enough to be in an encyclopedia article, there should be a section or subsection headed "Trolls and vandals." Specific examples could possibly be included. Lou Sander (talk) 03:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

There was once such a section. It was called "Leftist ... agents provocateurs." It has now been deleted. Do you support that deletion? Would you want the section restored? Samurai Commuter (talk) 05:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The section was added by a banned user, Bryan From Palatine. Re-adding it is disallowed. We don't edit on behalf of banned editors. Lawrence § t/e 05:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If Adolf Hitler said "The sky is blue" would you then say "No the sky is red"? Whatever you think of BryanFromPalatine does not matter about article content. His section he wrote had good content. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

He wrote it, you posted it. Article fine for months till Shibumi come. Since then, all hell break loOse. Sockpuppetry not honorable. Eschoir (talk) 01:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, it must not have been well done. It IS possible to talk about trolls and vandalism without getting into controversial stuff. Just say there are problems with trolls and vandalism, source it, and give a NPOV example or two. Try hard not to include inflammatory quotes. If there aren't any sources other than FR posts, you're probably out of luck. If there aren't any sources, the trolls and vandalism maybe aren't such a big deal. Lou Sander (talk) 06:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Trolls are fairly commonplace, and apparently not notable. Eschoir (talk) 06:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. Lawrence Cohen does not have consensus. Lawrence Cohen and Eschoir are trying to start edit war on this page now. This is not honorable. Please stop. Respect other editors. Save your accusations for proper location. Here you must assume good faith. Shibumi2 (talk) 22:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Voting is evil

You have a sandbox, rewrite the article as you would write it. See if you can get consensus on a version. Eschoir (talk) 04:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I did have consensus for the version that existed in the mainspace, just before you resumed edit warring this morning. Samurai Commuter (talk) 05:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

So you're a "too proud to be anywhere but mainspace" kind o' guy?Eschoir (talk) 05:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Consensus from who? Lawrence § t/e 05:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

So you see there is no consensus for your edits on January 22. WP:RS guideline does not defeat policy which allows self-published material from Free Republic in article about Free Republic. I will contact administrator to restore previous version by Samurai Commuter. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you have it backwards. I was asking Samurai Commuter where the claimed consensus was. Lawrence § t/e 23:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I am speaking to you Lawrence. You do not have consensus. See section above. Strong opposes. I also have found new online source for article. It is not in printed magazine so everyone can click on it and see it. No arguments please. http://www.flakmag.com/web/freerepublic.html Shibumi2 (talk) 23:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

You just convicted yourself of being [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b742a3c317b.htm a Bryan sockpupppet] Eschoir (talk) 00:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I did what? Is this out of order? Lawrence § t/e 00:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Shibumi again posts copy directly traceable to Bryan. HE is the source of the Wyldcard allegation, the Leftists . . . agents provocateurs" copy, and HE is the source for the 2001 FLAK magazine article linked by Shibumi2 Eschoir (talk) 00:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I was looking for magazine articles about Free Republic. I typed "magazine Free Republic" into Google. Do it yourself and see what you get. Shibumi2 (talk) 21:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Article talk pages are provided for discussion of the content of articles and the views of reliable published sources. They should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views. Lou Sander (talk) 03:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

More [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b25d95b7acb.htm Barton Wong]Eschoir (talk) 14:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Eschoir is always searching for something negative that he can add to this article. Here is something else I found. I found Alexa rankings.

• Yahoo: Number 1
• Google: Number 2
• New York Times: 239
• Salon.com: 2,752
• Slate: 2,867
• Daily Kos: 4,883
• Free Republic: 9,451
• Democratic Underground: 12,193
• Bartcop: 32,860
• Buzzflash: 54,470
• White Rose Society: 904,899

I cannot find Houston Review. Shibumi2 (talk) 21:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I found Alexa about ten months ago and put it in the article - it got botted out. Eschoir (talk) 06:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Republican Front Runner

{{editprotected}}

In the article section on the mass-banning of Giuliani supporters, it describes Giuliani as the "republican front-runner." I don't think anyone would argue that this is still the case. Thanks! Sperril (talk) 21:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Also Lawrence Cohen did not have consensus for his reverts of January 22. [5] He was joining in edit war started by Eschoir. For this reason administrators should restore previous version by Samurai Commuter. Thank you.

If any other editors have objections to this based on policy governing content then please post your objections here with citation of policy section that supports you. Objections based on false accusations of sockpuppet or proxy status should be made at WP:ANI or WP:RFAR not here. Thank you. Shibumi2 (talk) 20:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

BenBurch can you explain this please? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4968220 Shibumi2 (talk) 21:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Just asking... could the DU post linked to above be used as a source supporting the claim that trolls/agents come into Free Republic to do it harm? If they do it to an article about Free Republic, they'll do it to Free Republic itself.

And is Ben Burch maybe not the perfect guy/girl to be refactoring this article? Lou Sander (talk) 22:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Administrators avoid making content edits or restoring previous versions of protected pages. I hope everyone will take the time until then to try to resolve the disagreements that led to the article being protected. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't we also ask BenBurch to explain this please? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=24203&mesg_id=24203 Does BenBurch blame the Freepers for the death of his close personal friend, Andy Stephenson? Shouldn't we also ask Eschoir to explain this please? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Free_Republic#Free_Republic Does Eschoir still have an axe to grind against FR after being banned for life from FR, creating 88 disruptive sockpuppets, and being blocked by a federal injunction nearly 10 years ago? Lou Sander, shouldn't we be asking whether either one of these two are maybe not the perfect guys/girls to be editing this article at all, under any circumstances? Inspector Callahan SFPD (talk) 03:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Magnificent first wiki-post! Welcome mystery consensus builder Eschoir (talk) 16:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

All posters please note and comply: Per WP:TP, "Article talk pages are provided for discussion of the content of articles and the views of reliable published sources. They should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." Lou Sander (talk) 17:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Please discuss

Silence can sometimes speak louder than words. In response to these requests to explain both Eschoir and BenBurch are silent. Inspector Callahan and Lou Sander please observe this. Protection on this article expires in 18 hours. Our repeated offers to discuss this content dispute have been ignored by BenBurch, Lawrence Cohen and Eschoir. Or they have responded with accusations which should be made elsewhere and resolved elsewhere.

I will post last version by Samurai Commuter on Sandbox page. I will once again invite Eschoir and BenBurch to explain why they are opposed to this version. This explanation must address all concerns about WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT and be fully compliant with WP:NPA, WP:AGF and WP:CIV. If you do not post such well grounded objections here on Talk page then I will revert last edit by Lawrence Cohen and restore previous version by Samurai Commuter tomorrow morning.

I would prefer to discuss this in a cooperative and collaborative way. So please explain why you cannot stand "Agents provocateurs" section. It is well sourced. It explains presence of some of the objectionable material at Free Republic. Also please explain links provided above to Democratic Underground and to request by Samurai Commuter for clarification. These raise serious WP:COI issues. Shibumi2 (talk) 21:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Sandbox version is here. Please review and tell us what is wrong with it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Republic/Sandbox "Agents provocateurs" section is supported by Scallon article, MD4Bush sources such as Washington Post and Baltimore Sun, and O'Reilly statement about "planted" remarks. Pein statement gives too much WP:WEIGHT to criticisms. Shibumi2 (talk) 21:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You will revert regardless of what anybody does here. You already have reverted. Eschoir (talk) 02:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken. If you could produce a good reason based on content then I would not change one thing. Shibumi2 (talk) 12:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, there's my edits. Eschoir (talk) 04:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Very good. I will review them and post my response here. Shibumi2 (talk) 12:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that article lead needs work but Lou Sander should do it.

Local chapters are connected to Free Republic because they make extensive use of its forum and they organize under its name. But they are not controlled by Free Republic. They are like adults in relationship with their own parents and grandparents. They share name and they get together sometimes but they are not controlled by their parents.

South Carolina chapter hosted "family reunion" with guest Katherine Harris. This is notable.

WP:SELFPUB allows Free Republic threads to be used as sources in article about Free Republic. Agents provocateurs section is therefore well sourced. Scallon article was printed in Chronicles magazine. If it is POV pushing then Salon quotations and New York Observer quotations would then go unanswered. O'Reilly criticisms would also go unanswered. If Agents Provocateurs section must be removed then Salon and Observer quotations and O'Reilly criticisms must also be removed to avoid POV pushing in other direction.

DC chapter protests often at Walter Reed hospital. Not just one member. Weekly reports in Free Republic forum. That section should be expanded. I encourage you to write it.

I see you are still trying to include "mob rule" quotation from Pein but without explanation. Like removal of Agents provocateurs this Pein quotation makes it POV pushing in other direction. Criticism from Salon and Observer and O'Reilly is more than enough. Shibumi2 (talk) 12:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't work that way, that "Lou Sander" should do it. Any article may be edited by any editor at any time, unless the community enforces a sanction in the form of blocking a user indefinitely (in which case, he may not edit any article ever under any username, and anyone pushing his favored edits will be blocked as him); unless the community enforces article sanctions--if the community decides a user is barred from an article, he's cut off; or unless the arbitration committee bars a user from an article(s). Lawrence § t/e 16:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Local chapters are connected to Free Republic because they make extensive use of its forum and they organize under its name. But they are not controlled by Free Republic. They are like adults in relationship with their own parents and grandparents. They share name and they get together sometimes but they are not controlled by their parents.

If they are adults they should have their own articles. You don't include GW Bush stuff in GHW Bush article.

Peerhaps you missed this response for my request for third opinion:

Third opinion (repost)

Posts on Free Republic should not be used as sources. WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB are not self-contained independent sections. SPS tell us that "forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable". SELFPUB tells us since the use of those forums is contentious and the identity of the authors cannot be ascertained that FR postings should not be used as sources. Most of the material in this article should be drawn from "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (WP:V). Vassyana (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Katherine Harris did not attend the SC Chapter meeting, by the way, but a crook did. Notable? Eschoir (talk) 14:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"Largely not acceptable" is not the same as "completely unacceptable." In some cases identity of authors (such as Kristinn) can be ascertained beyond doubt. In other cases (such as Admin Moderator) identity is protected for good reason but author clearly speaks on behalf of Free Republic. In other cases they are identified in this article only as "Freepers." Most of material in this article (and specifically in Agents Provocateurs section and MD4Bush section) is already drawn from "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" like Washington Post, Baltimore Sun, Bill O'Reilly transcript and Chronicles magazine. Any mention of WyldCard has already been removed from article since you hate Bryan so much. Shibumi2 (talk) 15:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Even if this is one of those rare circumstances that is outside the range of "largely not acceptable" and even if the identity of some posters can be ascertained, the use of the forum as a source is still highly contentious (which contraindicates the use of the forum as a source). Multiple outside opinions and noticeboard discussions have indicated that the forum postings should not be used as sources, for multiple policy-based and rational reasons. Please take that broader community input into consideration. Continually pushing contentious edits is generally considered disruptive. Vassyana (talk) 16:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I have major, major problems with all these forum posts being used period for any purpose. They need to go and very soon. Their usage is against policy, tradition, and article norms. Lawrence § t/e 16:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I have reviewed comments by Lou Sander about Jerome Corsi and agree that second half of paragraph should be removed. Jerome Corsi has his own article and this material belongs there. I will be adding a comment from Admin Moderator to Agents Provocateurs section to improve sourcing. Please review. www.freerepublic.com/~adminmoderator/ Shibumi2 (talk) 15:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm removing that section if re-added again. It's non-notable. There is NO consensus to include it, and it's the pet project of a banned user, BryanFromPalatine. Any attempts to edit on the behalf of a banned user is a blockable action. Any user who wants to include material in ANY article, if challenged on it by other editors, must obtain consensus for it's inclusion. That is the way Wikipedia works. There is no consensus for that section as it keeps getting removed by multiple users. Obtain consensus from established logged-in users, and we can discuss this. Lawrence § t/e 16:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You have just declared your intention to start an edit war. Let everyone take note of the fact that Lawrence Cohen has issued an ultimatum and if it is not obeyed, he will start an edit war. 99.201.206.151 (talk) 20:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)— 99.201.206.151 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Nice trolling. I said I would remove it. I didn't say I would remove it repeatedly each day. Anyone adding material on the behalf of banned users: thats a no-no. Lawrence § t/e 20:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not adding on behalf of banned user. I am adding on behalf of Shibumi2. If Adolf Hitler says "The sky is blue" will you say "No the sky is red"? If Pol Pot developed polio vaccine would you refuse to vaccinate your child? This is not about you. It is not about me. It is not about Bryan./ It is about content on Wikipedia. Agents Provocateurs section is good content for Wikipedia. Shibumi2 (talk) 21:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Shibumi2 also has his supporters. Subtract two people who have never even tried to explain their WP:COI problems, and one person who has followed him here from Talk:Waterboarding to harass him, and there would be no one deleting it. Samurai Commuter (talk) 17:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that A) activities on Free Republic occasionally get national attention, and that B) the article ought to mention that. Surely B) can be done without including gory details that people get into edit wars over. It may require some troll suppression, but it CAN be done. Lou Sander (talk) 17:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I have removed every trace of Free Republic discussion threads from Agents Provocateurs section. Bill O'Reilly thinks "planted" material is notable. Sean Scallon of Chronicles magazine thinks "agents provocateurs" are notable. Baltimore Sun and Washington Post thought "MD4Bush" was notable. This provides "other side of the story." I am using these sources plus Admin Moderator (official spokesman for Free Republic) to create new Agents Provocateurs section. You have no excuse to revert it. Shibumi2 (talk) 21:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Good work, Shibumi2. Even though WP:SELFPUB would normally allow the use of FR threads as sources in this article, the POV pushers with COI problems are making it "contentious." Maybe now they will stop avoiding those inconvenient questions about their COI problems. Or will they keep ducking and running from those questions to continue their edit war? It's up to them. Samurai Commuter (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I find nothing objectionable in the new section, though it IS a pretty lengthy way to say that bad guys sometimes infiltrate the site. Also, the link in Footnote 33, about the SC DOT employee, doesn't work right now. Lou Sander (talk) 23:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing NOTABLE about trolls. The moderation of those trolls has been the subject of much more RS material. Thus my section on "Moderation in the Defense of Liberty" in the sandbox. Eschoir (talk) 01:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I strongly oppose your "Moderation in the defense of liberty" section since it has never before been discussed, because this criticism of FR is already overrepresented by Salon and the Observer, and because Wikipedia is not your nasty little personal blog. I have restored Shibumi2's version. Please do not revert until you've demonstrated that your changes are supported by consensus.

I can't discuss things for you. Following Shibumi2s request I posted it at the sandbox yesterday, and there were no objections.

So tell me, you now object to the sources?Eschoir (talk) 02:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I am telling you now that I object to your manipulation of the sources in this manner, because this type of criticism is already overrepresented by the Salon and Observer quotes. This article is not the bitter, mean-spirited personal blog of a Freeper who was banned for life. It is not a poison pen letter to Jim Robinson. It is an encyclopedia article. It must be NPOV.

I am also telling you now, for the third time, that I object to you chopping my Talk page edits into an incomprehensible mess when you respond.

You prefer your own manipulation of the sources, I guess, cherry-picking. You picked the sources, I just quoted more of them than you, more accurately representing the gravamen of their POV. You can't have it both ways, either they are RSs or not. What will it be?Eschoir (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Shibumi2, by ignoring your "Moderation in defense of liberty" section and posting his own version, demonstrated his opposition. Lou Sander, by stating his support for Shibumi2's version ("I see nothing wrong with it"), indicated that he opposes your alternate version. There is a consensus here and it opposes your version. Samurai Commuter (talk) 02:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Silence means consent under the law.Eschoir (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

All open source websites have vandalism problems. Judging from the magnitude of their response, FR's vandalism problem is proportionate with Wikipedia's. As any editor working RC patrol can confirm, the problem is notable. Samurai Commuter (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikis vandal problem has been previously noted

How would you propose to quantify 'the magnitude of their response'? Eschoir (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Eschoir: Please stop using this page as a soapbox. Lou Sander (talk) 01:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Beg your pardon? Eschoir (talk) 01:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Eschoir: please stop using this page, and in particular the article mainspace, as a soapbox. Samurai Commuter (talk) 02:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Is soapbox a term of art?Eschoir (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

OOPs! Time to start attacking crotalus horridus!Eschoir (talk) 03:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Eschoir: Please stop using this page as a soapbox. Lou Sander (talk) 03:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Beg your pardon? I really don't understand what you're getting at.Eschoir (talk) 04:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Page Protected

I have protected the page for 1 week in its current status. If the current situation continues, I think that we may need to protect it until the Samurai Commuter/Neutral Good/Eschoir situation is resolved via ArbCom, since these folks are like matter and anti-matter. SirFozzie (talk) 15:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Any responsible editor, upon reviewing Eschoir's troubling edit history on this article, its Talk page and especially its Refactor page, and upon thoroughly reviewing his personal history with the Free Republic forum (easily found via Google), will come to the same conclusion I have reached: that person should not be editing this article. Samurai Commuter (talk) 17:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And I'm sure, that Eschoir would say the same about you considering you are supposedly, per several people, a reincarnation of a banned user (per the Waterboarding ArbCom evidence). If I had my way, the lot of you would be topic banned from this article and related articles. It's unfair to have to keep edit protecting this article to lock out other, productive editors, because certain folks have taken outside disputes here. SirFozzie (talk) 05:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Anti-endorsement of Romney

Jim Robinson has given Mitt Romney the seal of disapproval: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1961787/replies?c=107 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.148.172 (talk) 18:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Sandbox and Refactor still open

I point out that the sandbox and refactor sites are still open for thohse sincerely interested in forging a consensus. Eschoir (talk) 17:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Give us links, please. Lou Sander (talk) 18:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC) Thanks! Lou Sander (talk) 21:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

sandbox Eschoir (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

refactor Eschoir (talk) 21:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody interested in editing anymore? Eschoir (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Not at all?Eschoir (talk) 04:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It is simple. No one wants to work with you. Except maybe people who hate Free Republic like you. Editing Wikipedia should be pleasant and teamwork experience. This is not your way. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur. Lou Sander (talk) 00:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk is for edits, not talking about editors. I envision a moderation section - most of the heat and sound emitted from the site seem to be moderation based. There would be no clinton assassination story or Jenna Bush story or Corsi story or OReilley story if moderation had been tighterm but ironically moderation is too tight in the Giuliani and cokehead felon stories

Do y'all have any input? Eschoir (talk) 02:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

"Tempest in a teapot." Most of the heat and sound emitted from the site consists of uncovering Killian Memo forgeries and planted Clinton backers at debate, and counter protests at Walter Reed Hospital and at Washington Mall with "Gathering of Eagles." These receive much attention from big media sources such as CNN and USA Today. These receive no attention from you. You try to limit discussion of these in article with many excuses or you try to make them seem insignificant. Instead you try to make this article about forum moderation policies which resulted in you being banned. These receive attention very rarely at small media sources like New York Observer. This is not about you. Shibumi2 (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I assume you have a registered account there in good standing. Eschoir (talk) 23:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Guys, focus on the edits, not the editors, please? SirFozzie (talk) 15:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

My question is edit based, and was going to be, if s/he is in good standing, to Freepmail and ask Racebannon, whose picture is displayed here, if he cares to be identified, and if so, how, as his screen name or given name. Eschoir (talk) 21:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Talking wastes my time. I prefer working. So I do not have accounts at Free Republic or Democratic Underground. I edit Wikipedia articles. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Article probation

It is expected that the article will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that information contained in it will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources. The article may be reviewed on the motion of any arbitrator, or upon acceptance by the Arbitration Committee of a motion made by any user. Users whose editing is disruptive may be banned or their editing restricted as the result of a review.Eschoir (talk) 19:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Racebannon's pic

The upper picture is of the DC chapter, unconnected with FR and advertising itself on its homepage as 'independant.'

• It should go as the article isn't about the DC Chapter.
• Stay, but the caption should read "Members of the DC Chapter demonstrate. . ."
• Racebannon publishes his name. He should be named in the caption. Eschoir (talk) 03:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I say keep it and fix the caption as suggested. No reason to identify the person by name or handle, and plenty of reasons not to. Also please try to do better at identifying the paragraph or picture you are referring to; I'm assuming you're talking about Image:FReepers.jpg. Lou Sander (talk) 04:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

md4bush

I tracked down the source of the Spruiell NRO quote. It doesn't mention Republilcans, nor freepers, nor entrapment. I propose the following change is necessary.

Some Republicans and Freepers have charged that Post reporter Matthew Mosk's access to the MD4Bush account constitutes complicity to the alleged entrapment of Steffen, and a violation of the privacy of Free Republic users. No legal remedy was sought by any of the parties.

Mr. Taylor charged that Post reporter Matthew Mosk's access to the MD4Bush account was a violation of the Free Republic users agreement, and they were "looking into whether the Washington Post violated the Electronic Communications Privacy Act when Post reporter Matthew Mosk accessed the Free Republic account of MD4Bush."

Eschoir (talk) 03:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

According to a source familiar with the MD4Bush postings, the e-mail address used in October 2004 to open the MD4Bush account is: ryanrock2004@yahoo.com.

Sources said that e-mail address was later changed to rodoherty@mddems.org, then changed for a third time to brianwaverly@yahoo.com. That third e-mail address remains as the address registered on the Free Republic account, which remains open.

According to Free Republic, anyone who has the password to the MD4Bush account could change the e-mail registration address at any time. It is not known how many people may have had access to that password.

The e-mail address information obtained does not shed light on the actual users of the MD4Bush account, nor does it reveal whether someone attached the Ryan O'Doherty e-mail address to the account without his knowledge.

WBAL report

Eschoir (talk) 03:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. You did not indicate when you posted this on Talk page that you were planning to add it to the article mainspace. This is pure speculation. It does not appear in Baltimore Sun or Washington Post. It appears in much less notable source with lower standards for fact-checking. It does not belong in this article. It may not even belong in MD4Bush Incident article since it is so speculative. Shibumi2 (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. I hope I'm doing this right. Eschoir is infamous at Free Republic, even after being banned for ten years. Anything he wants to do to this article is immediately suspect. Gt2008 (talk) 21:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. I agree with Gt2008 and Shibumi2. Eschoir is one of the most notorious trolls on the Internet. His work on this article is extremely suspect. His explanations are opaque. Consensus is difficult or impossible, because Eschoir drives off editors who don't share his agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lou Sander (talk • contribs) 22:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Last Warning Comments like the one above will stop immediately if folks do not want to be blocked. SirFozzie (talk) 22:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Citation in the lead

The recently-added citation doesn't seem to support the sentence to which it is appended. A larger problem is that the lead in general is pretty non-specific about what Free Republic actually is.

The Free Republic home page has some pretty good information about what Free Republic is. I am in favor of including that information, and prefacing it with something like "According to its home page, Free Republic is..."

IMHO, this would not be controversial to most readers, and would come from a legitimate source of information about Free Republic. If there is agreement on this, I have some specific wording to propose. Lou Sander (talk) 17:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the home page a bad source, but put what you got up in the sandbox.Eschoir (talk) 21:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Just read the source - it confuses Free Republic with FRN, which is defunct as we knnow. Need better sourcingEschoir (talk) 21:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

probation rules

In addition to the probationary rules set out above, let me set out what I understand to be the current more stringent standards for an article on probation:

• No reversion, except for good cause shown and talked.
• New material must be from better than normal sources - which means no questionable sources.
• Reliably sourced new information is deleted at risk of sanction.
• Questionably sourced or unsourced additions are deletable w/o penalty.
• If the article belies the footnote, it may be rewritten.
• Rewritten sections must be posted for discussion before adding to mainspace.

Eschoir (talk) 06:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. The Arbitration Committee has at least two levels of probation and this article is under the less stringent standard. Otherwise you would have been banned from this article on 13 January. Shibumi2 (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_of_modifications_of_sanctions_on_Free_Republic Support, and FYI]. Lawrence § t/e 23:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Appendix 4

The noteworthy quote in the Killian papers from App. 4 is not notewrothy in this context as it has next to nothing to do with Free republic. It does not reflect back or confirm Mr MacDougald's criticism of the proportional font, which incidentally was pretty wrong and noted as such almost immediately, and it is not the conclsion of the panel. I propse it's deletion for cause. Eschoir (talk) 06:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. The quotation shows that CBS expert agrees "Buckhead" was right in claiming that Killian documents were not authentic. It is very noteworthy. This may be the single most noteworthy event in the history of Free Republic but you seek to undermine it and minimize it always. Shibumi2 (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The panel did not concur. Though it did credit MacDougald in footnote 85 Eschoir (talk) 06:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

unsourced

The south carolina Free Times story link doesn't link anywhere and will be deleted for cause if better sourcing cant be found. The O'Reilly sentence does a good job of misrepresenting what he actually said. Eschoir (talk) 06:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. Always you try to remove evidence which shows people who do not agree with Free Republic are disrupting and vandalizing their forum. You also try to introduce more criticism of Free Republic. This is always the consistent theme of your edits and proves you cannot oversome your WP:COI. O'Reilly actually said "planted." Other things he actually said are well represented by Salon and Observer quotations. Providing more space for criticism would violate WP:WEIGHT. There is more criticism in this article than in Stormfront article. Shibumi2 (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

RFAR request to change probation terms

See here, and weigh in there on the RFAR page in that section. Lawrence § t/e 23:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

more useful rules

Defending interests

In a few cases, outside interests coincide with Wikipedia’s interests. An important example is that unsupported defamatory material appearing in articles may be removed at once. Anyone may do this, and should do this, and this guideline applies widely to any unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libelous postings. In this case it is unproblematic to defend the interest of the person or institution involved. An entire article that presents as an attack piece or hostile journalism can be nominated for speedy deletion and will be removed promptly from the site. Those who post here in this fashion will also be subject to administrative sanction. Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons gives details on how biographical articles on living persons should be written.

On the other hand, the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted. Accounts of public controversies, if backed by reliable sources, form an integral part of Wikipedia's coverage. Slanting the balance of articles as a form of defence of some figure, group, institution, or product is bad for the encyclopedia. This is also the case if you find an article overwhelmed with correctly referenced, but exclusively negative information. This may present a case of undue weight, for example, when 90% of an article about a particular company discusses a lawsuit one client once brought against it. In such a case, such material should be condensed by a neutral editor, and the other sections expanded. One of the best ways to go about this is to request this on the talk page.

The intermediate territory will naturally contain some grey areas. In many articles, criticism tends to collect in a separate section. There you may find properly referenced reports of well-publicised debates next to vague assertions that "Some people say X, while others think Y." Treat everything on its merits. Ask for reliable sources. Before removing a whole criticism section or article and distributing its parts over other sections of the article, which may be the best way ahead, consult other editors on the Talk page. Use crisp, informative edit summaries to detail what you have done, an excellent way to establish your reputation as a diligent editor. Raise any less obvious reasoning as a note on the talk page, with any additional links that support your edits.

WP:WEIGHT and WP:COI

Please read WP:WEIGHT and WP:COI.

Legal antagonists

If you are involved in a court case, or close to one of the litigants, you would find it very hard to demonstrate that what you wrote about a party or a law firm associated with the case, or a related area of law, was entirely objective. Even a minor slip up in neutrality in a court-case article on Wikipedia for an active case-in-progress could potentially be noticed by the courts or their parties, and this could potentially cause real-world harm, not just harm to Wikipedia. Because of this, we strongly discourage editing when this type of conflict exists.

Neutrality and verifiability

A common type of dispute is when an editor asserts that a fact is both verifiable and cited, and should therefore be included.

In these types of disputes, it is important to note that verifiability lives alongside neutrality, it does not override it. A matter that is both verifiable and supported by reliable sources might nonetheless be proposed to make a point or cited selectively; painted by words more favorably or negatively than is appropriate; made to look more important or more dubious than a neutral view would present; marginalized or given undue standing; described in slanted terms which favor or weaken it; or subject to other factors suggestive of bias.

Verifiability is only one content criterion. Neutral point of view is a core policy of Wikipedia, mandatory, non-negotiable, and to be followed in all articles. Concerns related to undue weight, non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited. The two are different questions, and both must be considered in full, in deciding how the matter should be presented in an article. Shibumi2 (talk) 02:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC) Eschoir (talk) 18:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I have refactored the sections I posted to direct your attention to the sections I believe to be most important in your case Eschoir. Shibumi2 (talk) 00:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

What is edit warring?

Edit warring is not necessarily characterized by any single action, instead it is characterized by any mindset that tolerates confrontational tactics to affect content disputes. Edit warring is the confrontational use of edits to win a content dispute. Identifying edit warring is often a judgment call administrators must make when cooling disputes. There are several measures that administrators currently use to determine when a user is engaged in edit warring.

The most common measure of edit warring is the three-revert rule, often abbreviated 3RR. The three-revert rule is a useful tool for measuring edit warring, as it posits that surpassing the absolute limit of three reverts on any one page in under 24 hours constitutes edit warring. While the three-revert rule is not to be interpreted blindly, reaching this threshold is generally a strong sign that there is serious misconduct afoot. The 3RR metric is not intended as an exemption for all conduct that stays under the threshold. For instance, edit warring could take the form of 4+ reverts on a page in a day, or three, or one per day for a protracted period of time, or one per page across many pages, or simply a pattern of isolated blind reverts as a first resort in response to disagreeable edits.

Edit warring is a distinct behavior characterized by a confrontational attitude. It is different in spirit than bold, revert, discuss cycle. Reverting vandalism and banned users is never edit-warring; at the same time, content disputes, even egregious POV edits and other good-faith changes, do not constitute vandalism.

Edit warring is the underlying behavior, not a simple measure of the number of reverts on a single page in a specific period of time.

Eschoir (talk) 03:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox Website

FreeRepublic

200px|right|Free Republic logo
Type of site	Forum
Available in	English
Owner	Jim Robinson
Created by	Jim Robinson, Robinson-DeFehr Consulting
Revenue	Donations (not deductible)
URL	www.freerepublic.com
Commercial	yes
Registration	Required to post
Launched	February 1997
Current status	Active

Definitely, this is standard. Lawrence § t/e 05:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Note

Eschoir, Shibumi2, I strongly suggest that you start discussing the latest addition/removal before doing it any more. We don't want the page to be protected yet again on an arbitrary M:The Wrong Version Also please note, there's a discussion of possibly adding ability for administrators to sanction edit warriors, up to and including a topic ban or a general probation. SirFozzie (talk) 06:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Discuss before adding reliably sourced content?Eschoir (talk) 06:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't hurt. SirFozzie (talk) 06:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Then the article is still defacto protected. Eschoir (talk) 06:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

SirFozzie's suggestion makes a lot of sense. It would allow the rest of us to comment on edits before they are made. DCLawyer (talk) 09:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, who are 'the rest of us' you refer to? You have never edited this article, at least under this account name. Eschoir (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Curious about that myself, as well. Lawrence § t/e 15:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

By 'the rest of us', I mean editors with some knowledge of the subject matter, who are reluctant to make edits to the article because of the disputatious nature of some of the regular editors. Many of us know how to use Google, how to recognize conflicts of interest, and when to suspend the assumption of good faith. DCLawyer (talk) 15:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Now the interrogation starts again for another newcomer. I have previously objected to Pein quotation twice on 28 January and 29 January. Eschoir ignores this. Please read this section: WP:NPOV#Neutrality_and_verifiability. "The rest of us" refers to DCLawyer, Lou Sander, Shibumi2 and anyone else who doesn't want people who have WP:COI to WP:OWN this article. Shibumi2 (talk) 16:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason I say that, Eschoir, is that it would be helpful for new administrators coming into this conflict to understand just who's trying to improve the article, and possibly, who's just trying to argue out of bloodymindednesss, do you understand? SirFozzie (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand bloody-mindedness also includes stubbornness. Members of FreeRepublic have been editing here as groups (see us above) in order to wear down neutral editors since at least October 2005. I'm sure if you wanted my opinion about anything, you would ask. Eschoir (talk) 00:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you believe that you are neutral on this subject matter? Shibumi2 (talk) 22:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

'The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV".'Eschoir (talk) 23:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

We have not simply labeled your edits "POV." We have repeatedly explained on this Talk page many details about why they are POV. Please answer my question. Do you believe that you are neutral on this subject matter? Please also read this section: WP:NPOV#Neutrality_and_verifiability. Here is another section from WP:COI:

Non-controversial edits

Editors who may have a conflict of interest are allowed to make certain kinds of non-controversial edits, such as:

1. Removing spam and reverting vandalism.
2. Deleting content that violates Wikipedia's biography of living persons policy.
3. Fixing spelling and grammar errors.
4. Reverting or removing their own COI edits. Cleaning up your own mess is allowed and encouraged.
5. Making edits that have been agreed to on the talk page.

To determine what is controversial, use common sense. If another good faith editor objects, then it's controversial.

..... This is what editors with WP:COI problems should limit themselves to doing on this article. Thank you. Shibumi2 (talk) 00:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Your statements constitute personal attacks. I recommend you try dispute resolution rather than further taking up this article talk page. Eschoir (talk) 02:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel like Shibumi is attacking me. She's just pointing out some reasonable rules. How can any good faith editor see it otherwise? DCLawyer (talk) 15:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Eschoir why do you feel this is personal attack? I am only citing Wikipedia policies and asking you to obey them. Wikipedia has rules regarding WP:NPOV and WP:COI. Please obey them. You have persisted in making controversial edits despite your COI. None of us has ever agreed to any of your edits. Many of us have objected when you proposed them here on Talk page. Good reasoning and policy supports my position. Please obey WP:COI rules about these types of non-controversial edits you are allowed to make. Thank you. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Characteristics of problem editors

Here are some hints to help you recognise if you or someone else has become a problem editor:

You delete the cited additions of others with the complaint that they did not discuss their edits first.

There is no rule on Wikipedia that someone has to get permission from you before they put cited information in an article. Such a rule would clearly contradict WP:BOLD. There is guidance from ArbCom that removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption.[6] Instead of removing cited work, you should be questioning uncited information.

More reasonable rules Eschoir (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Freeper?

Alright, this is probably just a minor oversight by people who have looked at this page a lot, but the page doesn't really define what a "freeper" is, it just gets into calling them that. While it does become obvious eventually, I think a sentence simply stating that "users of the Free Republic website are often called 'freepers'" or something like that would be a good addition. 128.252.78.81 (talk) 00:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe it's a sourcing problem.Eschoir (talk) 03:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

What's the problem? The term "Freeper" is used in the New York Observer story cited in the article, and in one of the quotations about "freeping" polls. It's also not controversial (that is, it's not expressive of a POV the way "Freeptard" is). I agree with the anon that this would be worth explaining at first occurrence. JamesMLane t c 11:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with JamesMLane. There is nothing controversial about using the term. It is mentioned in many, many places outside FreeRepublic, and numerous times on their home page. I don't see any specific "sourcing problem," but if there is one, it should be explained. Lou Sander (talk) 17:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Lucianne Goldberg ("Trixie") coined the word, supposedly inspired by the Detroit Free Press, but I can't source it reliably, though there are intereseting sources out there. Eschoir (talk) 05:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

And this Eschoir (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

If you propose adding these to this article mainspace then I object. You object to using Free Republic threads because they are self-published. This "Sweetness-Light" blog is also self-published so it is not reliable source per WP:RS and WP:V. Urban Dictionary also fails reliable source criteria. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a proven "Reliable Source" for Freeper def: "Freepers, as the sites denizens are known" Any problems w/ Tossell as RS?

Eschoir (talk) 05:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I support the inclusion of the word "Freeper" and a simple, NPOV definition thereof. It should be very early in the article, and should simply say that these people are commonly called Freepers. An inline source or two could be included, and maybe should be, considering all the controversy here. An etymology is NOT needed, IMHO. By "NPOV definition," I mean there shouldn't be the slightest hint of any positive or negative connotation involved with the word or the people to whom it applies.

Considering the past controversies, I believe that the person making the edit should post something on this page saying "I propose to make the following change to the article: 'These folks are called Freepers blah, blah, etc.'" Be VERY specific about the wording and where you want to put it. Leave the proposal here long enough to draw some comments, wait until it has some, then either make the change, or alter it in accordance with the comments, or drop it. If it gets no comments after, say, two weeks, put it in exactly as proposed. Lou Sander (talk) 13:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see any discussion before the latest additions but for sourcing Freeper

Reminder:

Eschoir, Shibumi2, I strongly suggest that you start discussing the latest addition/removal before doing it any more. We don't want the page to be protected yet again on an arbitrary M:The Wrong Version Also please note, there's a discussion of possibly adding ability for administrators to sanction edit warriors, up to and including a topic ban or a general probation. SirFozzie (talk) 06:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Discuss before adding reliably sourced content?Eschoir (talk) 06:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't hurt. SirFozzie (talk) 06:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I think your changes are premature, in view of SirFozzie's leadership.Eschoir (talk) 02:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't even look at the changes, but I agree with Eschoir. This is a hugely controversial article. EVERYTHING should be posted on the talk page before it is added to the article. It doesn't need to be AGREED TO by everybody, but it ought to be DISCUSSED by everybody. That is where good faith, or the lack of it, reasonableness, or the lack of it, etc. can be seen and followed by all. Even if you're only going to change a comma, mention it here first. Lou Sander (talk) 03:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a great point. Eschoir in general and more often than not has done this. When no object is raised, on several instances, he's gone ahead with the changes. A day later, Shibumi or someone else arrives indignantly claiming how outrageous the changes were, and RVs them. That's also a major problem. Lawrence § t/e 03:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Notice

This motion was just passed by a majority of the Arbitration Committee and now is in effect.

' In light of continued disputes, remedy 4 adopted in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Free Republic is amended by adding:

"Additionally, any uninvolved administrator may impose a reasonable editing restriction (for example, 1RR) or page ban upon any editor who repeatedly engages in disruptive or uncivil editing of Free Republic or any closely related page. Prior to imposing such a ban or restriction, a warning should be given on the affected user's talkpage. All bans and restrictions shall be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Free Republic#Log of blocks and bans."

All editors, particularly including single purpose accounts and editors who have or may reasonably be perceived as having a conflict of interest, are strongly urged to edit Free Republic and related articles only in conformity with all Wikipedia policies and with this committee's prior decision. If the enhanced administrator authority provided in this ruling does not improve the situation on this article after 30 days, a request for a more formal Arbitration Committee review may be submitted.

So, I request the following rules be observed:

A) ALL additions and subtractions from the article, other than minor grammatical and spelling fixes, be determined on the talk page first, if at all possible. That means giving other editors a reasonable amount of time to comment on proposed changes (I'm not going to set a hard and fast line in the sand, but I would think a day or so would be fine. but I'm willing to be persuaded

B) The sniping at each other stops now, please. Let's work together instead of against each other.

C) I, or other administrators, will warn users on their talk page before any probationary measures are taken. SirFozzie (talk) 18:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with your proposed Rule A. If one editor makes a change that a second editor considers improper, the second editor can revert it and initiate the discussion on the talk page. Where there's a genuine good-faith controversy, the normal assumption would be that the first editor won't re-insert the change without allowing time for discussion. Is it naive of me to hope that at least some edits other than minor grammatical and spelling fixes would be generally accepted without prior discussion? JamesMLane t c 18:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

In this article, yes. ;-) Lou Sander (talk) 19:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

What Lou said. I think anyone who is here without an agenda will have no problems with these rules. Lawrence § t/e 19:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Lawrence, and with the rules. Lou Sander (talk) 19:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have a problem with these rules. We all have long to-do lists and we must all decide which articles deserve our time. Making any improvements to this article will, under current conditions, be unnecessarily difficult. For example, the "agents provocateurs" quotation is now in the article twice. Apparently, if I remove one of the duplications without discussing it here first, at least three editors will conclude that I have an agenda or that I'm being uncivil.

I haven't been all that active on the article lately, but this latest development prompts me to take the step I've thought of before but lacked the willpower to do: I'm unwatchlisting it. Happy editing, all. Drop me a note on my talk page if there's an RfC or a straw poll or something you think I might want to !vote on. JamesMLane t c 19:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

proposed edits

Propose reversion of last three edits as undiscussed and not even edit summarized, plus inclusion of Columbia Journalizm Review quote

The Columbia Journalism Review wrote "But on close examination the scene looks less like a victory for democracy than a case of mob rule."

in an appropriate place in the Kilian section.Eschoir (talk) 00:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose. I have posted my explanation for opposing quote from Corey Pein in Columbia Journalism Review at least twice: on 26 January and 28 January. Here it is again. His "mob rule" criticism is very much like criticisms by Jeff Stein (in Salon) and New York Observer which already give this article more criticism than Stormfront article. Salon and Observer already represent this criticism abundantly. Adding quote from Corey Pein therefore violates WP:WEIGHT section of WP:NPOV. My first edit on 20 February resolves your "dead link" complaint (which once again seeks to remove sourced positive material about Free Republic) by sourcing print edition rather than online edition of Columbia Free Times, a popular weekly newspaper in Columbia, South Carolina. My second edit restores section header and adds Scallon quote already embodied in "Rquote" feature which I introduced to this article several months ago. Rquote feature enlarges important quote already in the article. Another editor complained of Scallon quote appearing twice because of Rquote. Natalie Maines quote also appears twice due to Rquote but he did not complain about that. This is standard procedure for Rquote feature. Rquotes, section headers (such as Agents Provocateurs) and photos break up the long gray appearance of these articles, and make them more attractive to the eyes of readers. My third edit on 20 February added "known as Freepers" to article lead. This change has been thoroughly discussed here on Talk page. There is my "edit summary" since you insist. Shibumi2 (talk) 17:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

His "mob rule" criticism is very much like criticisms by Jeff Stein (in Salon) and New York Observer which already give this article more criticism than Stormfront article. Salon and Observer already represent this criticism abundantly. Adding quote from Corey Pein therefore violates WP:WEIGHT section of WP:NPOV.

Absolutely does not violate any part of WP:WEIGHT, there is no limit on sourced content.

My first edit on 20 February resolves your "dead link" complaint (which once again seeks to remove sourced positive material about Free Republic) by sourcing print edition rather than online edition of Columbia Free Times, a popular weekly newspaper in Columbia, South Carolina.

I question whether this is positive about FR, but you have no personal knowlege about the print edition, you are not claiming to have the paper in your ppossession, are you?

My second edit restores section header and adds Scallon quote already embodied in "Rquote" feature which I introduced to this article several months ago. Rquote feature enlarges important quote already in the article. Another editor complained of Scallon quote appearing twice because of Rquote. Natalie Maines quote also appears twice due to Rquote but he did not complain about that. This is standard procedure for Rquote feature. Rquotes, section headers (such as Agents Provocateurs) and photos break up the long gray appearance of these articles, and make them more attractive to the eyes of readers.

But it is a misquote, and successor to a line of identical misquotes going back to banned User:BryanFromPalatine. Iit has been rejected each time because first it cherry-picks the very questionable source to say something not supported by the source and second it is posted in support of a banned user.

My third edit on 20 February added "known as Freepers" to article lead. This change has been thoroughly discussed here on Talk page.

But you didn't source it. Eschoir (talk) 18:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Pein quote absolutely violates WP:WEIGHT since there are already many similar criticisms of Free Republic in this article. Specifically it violates this section. Shortcut identifies it as part of WP:WEIGHT: WP:WEIGHT#Neutrality_and_verifiability. I remind you again there is more already criticism in this article than in Stormfront article. Columbia Free Times is weekly newspaper available on microfilm at public library. Back issues are available directly from publisher if you do not have library in your city.[7] This article appeared in weekly issue dated 22 August 2000. Scallon quote is not a misquote. Your claim is inaccurate. Full text of Scallon article is available online [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/793011/posts here]. Since you do not like that site for proof of anything except what you want to prove, here is another. This quote is absolutely accurate, word for word, from article by Scallon. Also I have previously explained that I do not edit on behalf of any user except Shibumi2. But when I see good content I will add it. I do not care where it came from or who added it first if reliably sourced. If Pol Pot invented the polio vaccine would you refuse to vaccinate your child Eschoir? "Freeper" reference in lead is now sourced to Jeff Stein article in Salon. Since article by Stein is already cited in this article, and since it is very negative article about Free Republic, I do not believe there will be any more complaints from you about sourcing for the word "Freeper." Shibumi2 (talk) 23:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Pein quote absolutely violates WP:WEIGHT since there are already many similar criticisms of Free Republic in this article. Specifically it violates this section.

I see no sentence in the cite applicable to your contention. And you do not contend that you have seen the Free Press quote eitherin print or microfiche, though you could have. It remains unsourced. And the Scallon header quote is a misquoteEschoir (talk) 00:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

md4bush:

I tracked down the source of the Spruiell NRO quote. It doesn't mention Republilcans, nor freepers, nor entrapment. I propose the following change is necessary.

DELETE

Some Republicans and Freepers have charged that Post reporter Matthew Mosk's access to the MD4Bush account constitutes complicity to the alleged entrapment of Steffen, and a violation of the privacy of Free Republic users. No legal remedy was sought by any of the parties.

LEAVE IN

Mr. Taylor charged that Post reporter Matthew Mosk's access to the MD4Bush account was a violation of the Free Republic users agreement, and they were "looking into whether the Washington Post violated the Electronic Communications Privacy Act when Post reporter Matthew Mosk accessed the Free Republic account of MD4Bush."

AND ADD

The e-mail address used in October 2004 to open the MD4Bush account was ryanrock2004@yahoo.com. That e-mail address was later changed to rodoherty@mddems.org, then changed for a third time to brianwaverly@yahoo.com. Anyone who has the password to the MD4Bush account could change the e-mail registration address at any time. It is not known how many people may have had access to that password.

The e-mail address information obtained does not shed light on the actual users of the MD4Bush account, nor does it reveal whether someone attached the Ryan O'Doherty e-mail address to the account without his knowledge.WBAL report

Eschoir (talk) 01:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The above is is too much, and too complicated, for me to understand without burdensome research. I wouldn't necessarily oppose it on substantive grounds, but I don't think it's a proper way to propose a change, either. My notion of a proper proposal to change a highly controversial article is something like this:

An edit on (date) changed X to Y (verbatim quotes for both of them, please). I propose it be reverted so that X appears in the article.

That way, all could see what is being proposed. It would be one specific, easy to comprehend change. There would be little or no chance of deception or chicanery by the proposer. Lou Sander (talk) 03:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Eschoir, it might be easier to just, in sections: "Lets change x to y. For reason z." Lawrence § t/e 05:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

OK Let's delete

Some Republicans and Freepers have charged that Post reporter Matthew Mosk's access to the MD4Bush account constitutes complicity to the alleged entrapment of Steffen, and a violation of the privacy of Free Republic users. No legal remedy was sought by any of the parties.

leave in

Mr. Taylor charged that Post reporter Matthew Mosk's access to the MD4Bush account was a violation of the Free Republic users agreement, and they were "looking into whether the Washington Post violated the Electronic Communications Privacy Act when Post reporter Matthew Mosk accessed the Free Republic account of MD4Bush."

FOR REASON because I tracked down the source of quote X. The source doesn't mention Republicans, nor freepers, nor entrapment. Quote Y accurately represents the source.

AND ADD

The e-mail address used in October 2004 to open the MD4Bush account was ryanrock2004@yahoo.com. That e-mail address was later changed to rodoherty@mddems.org, then changed for a third time to brianwaverly@yahoo.com. Anyone who has the password to the MD4Bush account could change the e-mail registration address at any time. It is not known how many people may have had access to that password.

The e-mail address information obtained does not shed light on the actual users of the MD4Bush account, nor does it reveal whether someone attached the Ryan O'Doherty e-mail address to the account without his knowledge.WBAL report

Sourced neutral content from a Republican-leaning news bureau Eschoir (talk) 06:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. This material is very speculative and unreliable. It does not appear in more reliable sources already used for this section such as Washington Post and Baltimore Sun. Furthermore it goes into far too much detail and belongs in MD4Bush Incident article if it belongs in Wikipedia at all. Not here. As always you seek to undermine or remove sourced positive material about Free Republic, this time with pure speculation seeking to exonerate O'Doherty. There is no proof that WBAL-TV is "Republican-leaning news bureau." Shibumi2 (talk) 17:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Hey, I don't think that "As always you seek to undermine or remove sourced positive material about Free Republic, this time with pure speculation seeking to exonerate O'Doherty." is "commenting on the article, not the contributor," as advocated/required/or whatever by the WP:NPA policy. At the same time, I, too, wonder if stuff like this belongs in the article. But I'm not a subject matter expert, so I don't really have a lot to say about it. "Republican-leaning... etc. is just some guy's opinion on the talk page. I don't think it needs much proof. Lou Sander (talk) 18:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

This material is very speculative and unreliable.

easy to say. In fact it is not speculative at all. As to reliability, Free Republic is the source

It does not appear in more reliable sources already used for this section such as Washington Post and Baltimore Sun.

All the more reason to include it.

Furthermore it goes into far too much detail and belongs in MD4Bush Incident article if it belongs in Wikipedia at all. Not here.

Perhaps, but you would leave the extant material as is, which has proved to be false. The article needs to eliminate the false cites, wouldn't you agree? And neeeds to repalce them with something

As always you seek to undermine or remove sourced positive material about Free Republic, this time with pure speculation seeking to exonerate O'Doherty.

Your P.O.V. is here revealed. You oppose inclusion of material that could exonerate O'Doherty, in your words, because you are not neutral. I don't judge whether O'Doherty was MD4Bush, but he doesn't have to be exonerated of anything because he hasn't been charged with doing anything wrong. Except by anonymous Freepers. You are pushing a POV. And how does this undermine or remove sourced positive material about Free Republic exactly? How is any aspect of MD4Bush positive for FR? And why would it be important to include such material, positing its existance, merely because it is positive? First it has to be notable, then it has to be sourced.Eschoir (talk) 23:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

ESCHOIR & SHIBUMI2: You've GOT to stop analyzing/commenting on/talking to other editors. (I know I'm talking to editors here, but it's in an effort to improve behavior, not to make or comment on edits.) My eyes glaze over at all that stuff. The glaze gets thicker when you (plural) post great walls of intricately interwoven text, discussing fine points of the history and genealogy of FreeRepublic and this article. Sheesh! I REALLY want to help here, and I think I have the skills to do it. But it's just not worth it when I have to contemplate reading through all this stuff in order to make sense of it. Lou Sander (talk) 03:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

References (temporary)

I put this section here so we could check the references in the above proposed change. It's early in the morning, and my mind isn't clear enough to comprehend all the implications of the proposed changes from "OK let's change" onward, but it seems to me that they are proper and well-sourced, and that they would improve the article. Lou Sander (talk) 12:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

---

• Support. Lawrence § t/e 13:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Consensus clearly exists for inclusion of WBAL material in MD4Bush section, but in the interests of comity I will refrain from that edit for a little while. But the sentence "Some Republicans and Freepers . . . " was proposed for deletion on Feb 7, on grounds it was not supported by the source, and absolutely no one has defended it since. So it's gone. Eschoir (talk) 22:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

No consensus exists for inclusion of WBAL material in MD4Bush section. This material has been the subject of repeated objections on this Talk page, well supported by references to Wikipedia policy such as WP:WEIGHT. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

agents provocateur

Both Free Republic moderators and external sources have described the persistent presence of "left-wing trolling" on the Free Republic forums.[33][22] One such case, the MD4Bush Incident, received a modicum of publicity. In another case, a South Carolina state employee was forced to resign after allegedly engaging in disruption of Free Republic forums from his workplace computer.[34] Sean Scallon of Chronicles magazine described this phenomenon: "Leftists began to infiltrate the site, posting articles or posing as conservatives to act as agents provocateurs."[22] Moderation was later added to the site in an attempt to combat disruptive posting, but conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly suggested in July 2007 that left-wing "vandals" were still creating "planted" posts to discredit the forum.[35]

This passage has a thesis: The embarassing content referred to in criticism is being put on FR not by membership but by liberal agents provocateurs, for the purose of making it look bad. In order to support that thesis, the passage contains content that either come from sources that are out of bounds, or that misrepresents the source.

Startiing with the header, there is no "leftist" in the original. It is a purposeful misquote.

Then Both Free Republic moderators and external sources have described the persistent presence of "left-wing trolling" on the Free Republic forums.

The homepage of a Freeper is not a source. 'Persistant' is made up. There is non source that mentions 'left-wing trolling' it's a made up quote.

One such case, the MD4Bush Incident, received a modicum of publicity.

MD4Bush was not left wing trolling.

In another case, a South Carolina state employee was forced to resign after allegedly engaging in disruption of Free Republic forums from his workplace computer.

No mention of trolling, besides non-notable and unsourced. Quote misrepresents [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39a525043cb8.htm this source] guy was forced to resign for using government computer for personal political businesss not disruption, that word disruptor was added to title by the poster, whose handle is the same as a banned sockpuppet here.

Sean Scallon of Chronicles magazine described this phenomenon: "Leftists began to infiltrate the site, posting articles or posing as conservatives to act as agents provocateurs."

No mention that this was in 19999, besides soourcing problems.

Moderation was later added to the site in an attempt to combat disruptive posting, but conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly suggested in July 2007 that left-wing "vandals" were still creating "planted" posts to discredit the forum.

the quoted left wing 'vandals' is a made up quote. Vandl deosn't appear in the source and reflects thePOV of the editor. Eschoir (talk) 22:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I stopped reading after "Certain parties have a thesis." So, probably did a bunch of others. Lou Sander (talk) 23:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for the personal tenor of that paragraph, which I have refactored. Old habits die hard.Eschoir (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose if you are attempting to remove this paragraph Eschoir. Words such as "vandals" and "disruptors" are accurate characterizations based on statements by Admin Moderator and other moderators at Free Republic, and court documents filed against notorious "ubertroll" disruptor by the attorney for Free Republic. (Perhaps the solution to these sourcing complaints is to link those documents and use them as sources.) Reliable sources have been cited such as Free Times newspaper article, Chronicles magazine article, and transcript of Bill O'Reilly show. Shibumi2 (talk • contribs) 23:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, statements by Admin Moderator and other moderators at Free Republic are not reliable sources, even if this article were not on probation. It doesn't matter if reliable sources have been cited such as Free Times newspaper article, Chronicles magazine article, and transcript of Bill O'Reilly show, if the proposition for which they are cited don't appear in the source. Mischaracterization is not good editing. Rewrite it so it reflects reality. The words "vandal" and "disruptors" don't appear in the sources. Eschoir (talk) 00:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed new source for consensus

Once again I must offer different solution. This section has become a target for constant objections by certain editors. Most objections arise from sourcing. This proposal will end any complaints about sourcing permanently. I propose deletion of word "vandals" since it cannot be supported by sources reliable enough to meet your stringent criteria. Instead we should use the word "disruptors" exclusively. Here is very reliable source. You have used it yourself. Another editor use it also in L.A. Times v. Free Republic article. It is called Tech Law Journal. This is sworn statement by Jim Robinson himself. It is not self-published. There is no doubt who wrote it. It meets all requirements of WP:RS and uses this word: "disrupt." From this word no one can object to use of word "disruptors."

http://www.techlawjournal.com/courts/freerep/19991029rob.htm

Therefore I propose the addition of this paragraph and blockquote to Free Republic article.

---

In a sworn affidavit filed in the L.A. Times v. Free Republic lawsuit, founder and owner Jim Robinson described the activities of a liberal disruptor on the Free Republic forum:

"[He] has on many occasions declared his abiding hostility toward Free Republic and toward me personally. … This is consistent with his self-described 'ceaseless work to put FR in the worse possible light,' … and his prolific use of a large number of pseudonyms on the Free Republic site. … I have on many occasions revoked [his] posting privileges on Free Republic because of the abusive conduct … He has registered on Free Republic under as many as fifty (50) different pseudonyms, counsels others on how to do so, and further describes how he uses these many pseudonyms to harass, annoy and disrupt Free Republic and James Robinson. … He exults over the distress he hopes [he] has caused me by using so many different pseudonyms to disrupt the Free Republic site."

---

For consensus all editors please declare your support or opposition to removing the word "vandals," replacing it with the word "disruptors" and adding this paragraph and blockquote.

• Strongly Support. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Besides being wildly inappropriate for inclusion in this article, your source still doesn't support your thesis about 'liberal' "disruptors." Eschoir (talk) 00:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Why is it "wildly inappropriate"? This is sworn statement by Jim Robinson. You have previously tried to include Jim Robinson statements such as "cokehead felon." It is from a very reliable source that you have used yourself. It is very appropriate since you have challenged sourcing of section with such tenacity for so long. I would never have found it if you had not compelled me to look. Yes this source does support my thesis about "liberal disruptors." In Paragraph 60 Robinson described political beliefs of this disruptor: "known to us as a long-time opponent of the conservative views often expressed by many Free Republic 'regulars.' " What could this disruptor be if not liberal? Shibumi2 (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Conservative, Giuliani supporter, libertarian, any number of things. All the Anti-Freepers were conservatives. See the Sweetness and Light link.

The larger issue is that the affidavit is self-published, self-serving and contentioius by definition. TechLaw Journal exercised no editorial control of this content - there is no fact checking. And even if it were admissible, you still have a plural problem. Your thesis fails. Eschoir (talk) 05:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

If this troublesome disruptor was "a long-time opponent of the conservative views" then he was not conservative. Since this sworn statement was filed in 1999 this disruptor was not a Giuliani supporter. Sweetness and Light is a blog not a sworn statement, and is not a reliable source. Tech Law Journal is not owned by Robinson so this statement is not self-published. Robinson and his attorney attached many exhibits supporting his statements so they are not "unduly self-serving." The fact checking mechanism here was federal judge Morrow and law firm working for Los Angeles Times. This disruptor had become their witness in the copyright lawsuit. If Robinson had made provably false statements about their witness in a sworn affidavit, he would have been sanctioned by Judge Morrow in some way. Probably sent to prison for perjury and you would have already put those sanctions into this article and the article about the lawsuit. But there was no sanction, so the law firm could find no false statements, so these facts may be assumed to be thoroughly checked. This is probably a more reliable fact-checking mechanism than WBAL-TV. Editorial control is proven by statement, "Reprinted with the kind permission of James Robinson of Free Republic." Tech Law Journal editors would not have asked for reprint permission if they did not believe it to be accurate. You have made your position clear but it is completely unsupported. What do Lou Sander and DCLawyer say about this? Shibumi2 (talk) 10:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I admire your tenacity if not your logic

If this troublesome disruptor was "a long-time opponent of the conservative views" then he was not conservative. There are many kinds of conservative views Since this sworn statement was filed in 1999 this disruptor was not a Giuliani supporter. What? Sweetness and Light is a blog not a sworn statement, and is not a reliable source. I cited it for conservative views differing from Robinsons. Tech Law Journal is not owned by Robinson so this statement is not self-published. A republished self-publilshed statment is still a self-published statement. Robinson and his attorney attached many exhibits supporting his statements so they are not "unduly self-serving." Doesn't folllow.

The fact checking mechanism here was federal judge Morrow and law firm working for Los Angeles Times. This disruptor had become their witness in the copyright lawsuit. If Robinson had made provably false statements about their witness in a sworn affidavit, he would have been sanctioned by Judge Morrow in some way. Probably sent to prison for perjury and you would have already put those sanctions into this article and the article about the lawsuit. But there was no sanction,

False. their objection to the use of this witness' testimony , the origin of this affidavit, was overruled, and the testimony cited in the judgment.

so the law firm could find no false statements, so these facts may be assumed to be thoroughly checked. This is just wishful thinking.

This is probably a more reliable fact-checking mechanism than WBAL-TV. Made up.

Editorial control is proven by statement, "Reprinted with the kind permission of James Robinson of Free Republic." Tech Law Journal editors would not have asked for reprint permission if they did not believe it to be accurate. ILLOGICAL. Reprinting is not endorsement.

Now assume arguendo that all you allege is sourced. You have one disruptor nine years ago. That's notable? Why are you pushing this so hard? Eschoir (talk) 22:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not very familiar with American politics but some things are obvious even for me. Robinson described this disruptor as "a long-time opponent of the conservative views" so it appears he is not conservative. Giuliani was mayor of New York City in 1999 with no stated presidential ambition and this disruptor was from Washington DC area according to Robinson so he could not be a Giuliani supporter. Republished statement that was originally self-published is no longer self-published because new publisher exercises control over its own content and introduces fact checking. WP:SELFPUB does not forbid all "self-serving" self-published statements, only those that are "unduly self-serving." Read WP:SELFPUB. This policy does not prevent using Robinson statement in Tech Law Journal as reliable source.

Tech Law Journal is not being used by me to prove "This statement about this disruptor is true." It is only being used to prove "Jim Robinson said this." Tech Law Journal is a reliable source that you have used yourself when it suited you to do so. It has been used many times in article about the copyright lawsuit which you have edited.

Free Republic objection to testimony of this witness complained of credibility due to bias. Please read decision of Judge Morrow. This witness was allowed but no sanction was entered against Robinson for making false statements about witness. Do not change the subject. Fact checking mechanism (law firm for Los Angeles Times) failed to uncover any false statements. It seems no motion for sanctions was even filed by law firm. Thus they admitted truth of this statement about their witness. What you call "wishful thinking" and "made up" I call "my conclusion based on my observations." Tech Law Journal may not have endorsed Robinson statement but they found it accurate enough to reprint on their own website.

There are many more disruptors than "one nine years ago." There is MD4Bush who was paid political operative of Democratic Party. There is South Carolina Highway Department worker who was "self proclaimed office liberal." There are "leftist ... agents provocateurs" who are described by Sean Scallon. There are "planted" statements described by Bill O'Reilly. These are all reliably sourced elements of this article. These disruptors are proud of their "ceaseless work to put FR in the worse possible light." Their work is a significant factor in history of Free Republic and should be described in this article. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strong oppose to Shibumi2's additions. Trivial information, hardly sourced, not overly notable or encyclopediac. It is very odd that such trivial pro-Free Republic trivia is being pushed with such force and deep familiarity by someone unfamiliar with American politics. This is as far "niche" as you can get. Virtually no one in America cares about this deep level of this subject matter, let alone those from overseas. Lawrence § t/e 00:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

First the objection to this section was sourcing. This objection has now been defeated in detail. Now the objection is "triviality." When this new discovered triviality objection is defeated will there be another? And when that one is defeated will there be another? Raising objections one at a time is a delaying tactic. It is dusruptive and tendentious and violates article probation. All objections not raised when an edit is first proposed should be considered waived.

Content does not need to be "overly notable." Merely being "notable" is sufficent accordng to policy. It is notable when an online discussion forum (sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia article of this length) changes its policies radically and spends $110,000 on attorney fees to protect itself from disruptors. Information described as "trivial" is described by Free Republic moderators as the reason full-time moderation was introduced. Also this editor's "Freepers are extremists like Stormfront" POV should be considered, like Eschoir's "serious external conflict" in determining the weight to be given to his objections in consensus. Shibumi2 (talk) 12:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

DEFEATED sounds so much like edit warring, don't you think? Eschoir (talk) 21:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• This is madness: Tech Law Journal is not being used by me to prove "This statement about this disruptor is true." It is only being used to prove "Jim Robinson said this." So now your edit is not alleging the truth of the existance of a disruptor, just proof that Freepers talk about them? That kind of thinking is dysfunctional, not notable. Eschoir (talk) 03:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

"This is madness" and "that kind of thinking is dysfunctional" are personal attacks. Further personal attacks will be reported for arbitration enforcement. The criteria for inclusion is not "Is it true" but "Is it verifiable." The fact that Jim Robinson said this about a liberal disruptor is verifiable. Shibumi2 (talk) 12:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It's madness to continue a dialogue with a person whose argument shifts from proving the 'fact' of "liberal disruption" to proving the fact that someone once said something about possibly liberal disruption" - without even defining 'disruption' Eschoir (talk) 13:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Quoting Shibumi2: What you call "wishful thinking" and "made up" I call "my conclusion based on 'my observations."

Wikipedia does not publish original research

See No original research

Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position.

Shibumi2: Yes this source does support my thesis about "liberal disruptors."

Wildly inappropriate. Eschoir (talk) 03:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

"My conclusion based on my observations" is obviously not offered as WP:OR to be added to this article. It is being offered on this Talk page for the limited purpose of identifying those sources that are reliable. The suggestion that it violates WP:OR is wildly inappropriate. Shibumi2 (talk) 12:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Simply because this isn't information that illuminates anything useful in this encyclopedic article about the site. Generally speaking, every political blog that allows users to post will have "vandals" and "disruptors" and "trolls." It goes with the territory. In fact, if you DON'T have such activity, you're probably not being read by anyone. For contrast, go check out the entry for Daily Kos and note that nothing is mentioned about trolls, etc. Anyway, perceived disruption of political blogs is pretty ubiquitous, hence, pretty uninteresting. It happens from outsiders, from insiders, and from insiders who have become outsiders (banned). The exception to mentioning them might be when such activity slops over into more interesting areas, e.g., murder, stalking, fraud, etc. At that point, it's the "murder, stalking, fraud" that's of separate interest (and in need of documentation). The other exception might be if you're editing an article on the subject of trolls. -- Quartermaster (talk) 00:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

If Daily Kos and a disruptor were opposing parties in a federal court case, and if I could find a reliable source about it, I would add it to the Daily Kos article. It is notable. Just a few short weeks ago, Lawrence Cohen and Eschoir were edit warring (and Eschoir was being blocked for violating 3RR) in their relentless efforts to make this article about Free Republic moderation policies. This source discusses the origins of those policies and the most notable moderation event in Free Republic history. But now Lawrence and Eschoir are backpedaling. They claim that the most notable moderation event in FR history is "trivial Free Republic trivia." This is very peculiar. What is the real reason? Shibumi2 (talk) 02:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC) emphasis added Eschoir (talk) 04:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Congratualtions! Though English is not your first language, you have just demonstrated a heretofore undisplayed mastery of the definite article. You didn't drop one. Eschoir (talk) 04:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Quartermaster and Eschoir. Lawrence § t/e 00:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Propose deletion of Giuliani section

Propose deletion or reduction of Giuliani section, or combination with earlier section, as no longer notable.

Including Columbia Journalism Review quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eschoir (talk • contribs) 05:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support deletion of this section: [8] It is not from Columbia Journalism Review. It is from New York Observer. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Not notable. Lou Sander (talk) 23:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Please explain why the Observer is not a good source. Also, this was not consensus as false alluded to in the edit summary. Lawrence § t/e 00:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

No one said that New York Observer is unreliable. It is a popular weekly newspaper like Columbia Free Times. (The only difference is that Free Times does not archive all of its stories for years and years so content cannot be verified with a mouse click.) But the rest of us agree this section is no longer notable since Giuliani dropped out of the presidential race. You offer no support for your objection. Consensus supports deletion but you restored the content. Please revert. Thank you. Shibumi2 (talk) 19:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Not so fast, I proposed a range of options. "Propose deletion or reduction of Giuliani section, or combination with earlier section, as no longer notable."

I dont see any consensus. Eschoir (talk) 21:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It should not be removed. The fact that he is no longer running doesn't make it any less notable. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Now people are even updating this section. I don't think encyclopedias should cover internal disputes in specialized web sites at all, especially when they are history. Is there a rationale for having this section in the article? Lou Sander (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion

Both Free Republic moderators and external sources have described the persistent presence of "left-wing trolling" on the Free Republic forums. One such case, the MD4Bush Incident, received a modicum of publicity. In another case, a South Carolina state employee was forced to resign after allegedly engaging in disruption of Free Republic forums from his workplace computer. Sean Scallon of Chronicles magazine described this phenomenon: "Leftists began to infiltrate the site, posting articles or posing as conservatives to act as agents provocateurs." Moderation was later added to the site in an attempt to combat disruptive posting, but conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly suggested in July 2007 that left-wing "vandals" were still creating "planted" posts to discredit the forum. Trolling not notable. Eschoir (talk) 13:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite

Free Republic posters, notably "TankerKC" (later identified as active Air Force officer Paul Boley) and "Buckhead" (later identified as Atlanta GOP lawyer Harry W. MacDougald) contributed, along with members of the blogs Powerline and Little Green Footballs, to breaking what Freepers called "Memogate", the controversy surrounding CBS News' use of allegedly forged documents during the 2004 presidential campaign.

MacDougald may be the first Internet user to post assertions that the memos were forged. In a post on Free Republic the night of the broadcast, he mentioned the memos' proportional spacing and made the claim that such printing was "not widespread until the mid to late 90's". His posting spurred discussion spread across the Internet via blogs (attributing Free Republic) and the Drudge Report (attributing the Power Line blog, which credited "Buckhead" at Free Republic). The Associated Press later picked it up. Though the Investigative Panel "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion" on the documents' authenticity, the final conclusion of document expert Peter Tytell in Appendix 4 of the Panel's final report is noteworthy:

Tytell concluded ... that (i) the relevant portion of the Superscript Exemplar was produced on an Olympia manual typewriter, (ii) the Killian documents were not produced on an Olympia manual typewriter and (iii) the Killian documents were produced on a computer in Times New Roman typestyle[.] ... [T]he Killian documents were not produced on a typewriter in the early 1970s and therefore were not authentic.

This resulted in the early retirement of Dan Rather, and the resignations of Mary Mapes and three other news division executives at CBS. According to Ivor Tossell of the Globe and Mail, Free Republic "was central to the network of websites that uncovered the forged memos about Bush's Vietnam service that appeared on CBS News and ultimately cost Dan Rather his job." The Columbia Journalism Review wrote "But on close examination the scene looks less like a victory for democracy than a case of mob rule."

AND SUBSTITUTE

were among the first ripples, along with members of the blogs Power Line and Little Green Footballs, to the tidal wave of criticism that became "Memogate", the controversy surrounding CBS News' use of allegedly forged documents during the 2004 US presidential campaign.

"One of the first" attacks came on Free Republic the night of the broadcast. MacDougald/Buckhead singled out the memos' proportional spacing and made the claim that such printing was "not widespread until the mid to late 90's" . His posting was followed by further attacks which spread across the Internet via blogs and, by 3 p.m. the next day, the Drudge Report (attributing the Power Line blog, which credited "reader Liz MacDougald" with pointing to the "MacDougald/Buckhead" post within minutes of its posting at FreeRepublic.) (Power Line then pointed out that the Executive line of IBM typewriters did have proportionally spaced fonts at the time.). The Associated Press covered the controversy. The Investigative Panel "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion" on the documents' authenticity. The unresolved controversy resulted in the early retirement of Dan Rather, and the resignations of Mary Mapes and three other news division executives at CBS.

Eschoir (talk) 03:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't follow exactly what is being proposed here. Better would be to follow a common convention and strike out that which is proposed to be deleted, then underline the material which is proposed to be added, and place that material exactly where it is proposed to be added.

It would also be good to include, close to the proposed changes, but clearly distinct from them, a rationale for the proposed change. Maybe label it and put it in italics. Then all concerned could see, in one place, with no ambiguity, how it looks now and how it will look if the proposed changes are made, as well as a justification for the proposal.

Other than that, I don't love the 'ripples and tidal wave' stuff. Even if that is what some source said, it's pretty unencyclopedic language, IMHO. Better would be to say it in a less figurative way. Lou Sander (talk) 01:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Now that you mention it - ripples and tidaal wave are a little stylish. Eschoir (talk) 03:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Free Republic posters, notably "TankerKC" (later identified as active Air Force officer Paul Boley) and "Buckhead" (later identified as Atlanta GOP lawyer Harry W. MacDougald) contributed,were among the first, along with members of the blogs Powerline and Little Green Footballs, to breaking what Freepers calledto react publically to "Memogate", the controversy surrounding CBS News' use of allegedly forged documents during the 2004 presidential campaign.

MacDougald may be the first Internet user to post assertions that the memos were forged. In a post"One of the first" attacks came on Free Republic the night of the broadcast, he. MacDougald/Buckhead mentioned the memos' proportional spacing and made the claim that such printing was "not widespread until the mid to late 90's". His posting spurred discussion spread across the Internet via blogs (attributing Free Republic) and the Drudge Report (attributing the Power Line blog, which credited "Buckhead" at Free Republic). The Associated Press later picked it up. Though the Investigative Panel "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion" on the documents' authenticity, the final conclusion of document expert Peter Tytell in Appendix 4 of the Panel's final report is noteworthy:

Tytell concluded ... that (i) the relevant portion of the Superscript Exemplar was produced on an Olympia manual typewriter, (ii) the Killian documents were not produced on an Olympia manual typewriter and (iii) the Killian documents were produced on a computer in Times New Roman typestyle[.] ... [T]he Killian documents were not produced on a typewriter in the early 1970s and therefore were not authentic.

This His posting was followed by further attacks which spread across the Internet via blogs and, by 3 p.m. the next day, the Drudge Report (attributing the Power Line blog, which credited "reader Liz MacDougald" with pointing to the "MacDougald/Buckhead" post within minutes of its posting at FreeRepublic.) (Power Line then pointed out that the Executive line of IBM typewriters did have proportionally spaced fonts at the time.). The Associated Press covered the controversy. The Investigative Panel "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion" on the documents' authenticity. The unresolved controversy resulted in the early retirement of Dan Rather, and the resignations of Mary Mapes and three other news division executives at CBS. According to Ivor Tossell of the Globe and Mail, Free Republic "was central to the network of websites that uncovered the forged memos about Bush's Vietnam service that appeared on CBS News and ultimately cost Dan Rather his job." The Columbia Journalism Review wrote "But on close examination the scene looks less like a victory for democracy than a case of mob rule."

Eschoir (talk) 23:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Doing it this way may be hard, but we sure can see what you are proposing! Others may love it or hate it, but it seems to me to be a reasonable proposal for improving the article. If it were me making the proposal, and given the contentiousness that tends to surround this article, here's what I would do next: I'd wait a while and see if others respond here. If they don't, or if the response is at least somewhat favorable, you've got something to work with. Acknowledge the guys who just hate what you're doing, but take the next step down the path of putting the proposed stuff in the article: take out the strikeouts and underlines and put the whole proposed thing up here. Then give people a chance to improve the wording, etc. I think some of that may be in order, but it's hard to do it with all the strikeouts and underlines. When you've got something that is as good as we can make it, make the decision whether to move it to the main article.

Now I said "if it were me making the proposal," which in a way is talking about the editors rather than the article. I hope nobody takes it as presumptuous or snotty or contentious. I'm just making a suggestion. You are yourself, of course, and can do whatever you think is best. Lou Sander (talk) 02:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Free Republic LLC v Freerepublic.com

Reintroduce proposal to distinguish corporate FR from website by deletion of space between Free and Republic in website references.

Also propose a sectioon oon house managers dinner.Eschoir (talk) 05:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me freerepublic.com could be a redirect without a problem? --BenBurch (talk) 14:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Giuliani section

IMHO the short sentence about Robinson supporting Thompson should be deleted. The source is a Thompson press release. Thompson dropped out long ago. Support of Thompson has little to do with Giuliani. Robinson's past support of Thompson has little to do with appropriate encyclopedic coverage of Free Republic.

Also the paragraph about "recent purges" needs to be deleted. Not sourced. Has nothing to do with Giuliani. Lou Sander (talk) 16:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"self-described"

Recently added to the opening paragraph. POV or not? Seems to me that almost everybody's political views are self-described? --BenBurch (talk) 14:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

In the first so called "source" No where in that article does anyone describe themselves as a Nationalist, secondly, its a member of FreeRepublic....FR has gone(I know, believe me)from a place where leftwing Michael Riverio, sneakypete and others flamed away at everyone else with conspiracy theories, and Rights mostly focused on Clinton's junk, to a full broad Economic, Media, Military, Foreign Nation discussion house of a traditional rightwing movement, with libertarian hangers on and occasionaly a Ron Pau;, Buchanan, Rothbard lover might say something. Using the word Nationalist in this case by the "editor" is done to backhandedly smear the vast amount of views and discussions that go on at FR, and have gone on with a typical dishonest stereotype to make them appear buffoonish of in the usual leftwing case "xenophobic" or "fascist" or whatever false ties the left tries to untie from their history and throw onto anyone who quotes Burke on something.RT21Marine (talk) 05:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Freepers are "self-described" nationalists but in practice they are globalists, free traders, and foreign interventionists and this is all distinctly NOT nationalism. So they are self-described, but not in practice. I agree with whoever introduced the phrase "self-described", and I am a Republican. 98.165.6.225 (talk) 11:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe the type of nationalist free republic is made of. Liberal nationalism is the by far the best discription of what type of Nationalism Free republic's national ID is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism

You can read about Natan Sharansky at Free republic who writes about Defending Identity which is again best described as Liberal_nationalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defending_Identity --OxAO (talk) 01:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Free Republic vs Fred Phelps

From Fred Phelps (pastor known for strong anti-GLBT attitudes):

"when Phelps and his Westboro followers have shown up at Walter Reed Army Medical Center or other locales in the Washington area, they have been actively protested by the DC Chapter of Free Republic, a conservative website."

This currently has no cite in the article; I've requested one.

(1) Is this true?
(2) Can anyone add a cite for this to Fred Phelps?
(3) Is this worth mentioning in Free Republic?

Thanks. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems like a DC Chapter issue, not Free Republic. Eschoir (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "Haysen" :
  • Haysen, Kirsten. [http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,20541859-5006343,00.html "Not Ready to Make Nice."] ''Adelaide Now,'' October 7, 2006. Retrieved February 4, 2007.
  • Haysen, Kirsten. [http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,20541859-5006343,00.html "Not Ready to Make Nice."] ''Adelaide Now,'' October 7, 2006. Retrieved February 4, 2007.

DumZiBoT (talk) 03:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Obama

I was wondering why the article doesn't mention Free Republic's anti-Obama activities. It just seems to end suddenly. Their web site is blacklisted in the Wikipedia, so I can't cite references, but all the stuff you'd find on Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories is on there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwdavids (talk • contribs) 14:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

"1996-2000 - Anti Clinton" better heading needed

That section heading doesn't apply to most of the material in the section that follows it. I propose to change it to "1996-2000 - Early Days." I'm sure there's a more descriptive one, though. Lou Sander (talk) 14:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Concur. How about "Clinton Administration" to match the other epochs used? --BenBurch (talk) 15:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

"Conservatives"

Isn't "conservatives" a bit of an understatement? When I read this, I think of David Cameron or John McCain. From what I have seen, this site is a tad more to the right than that. Maybe "Christian right"? Or just "Right Wing"? I understand that in the US, "conservative" is often used as a euphenism, but we are supposed to be a global encyclopedia. yandman 08:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely not Christian right. I agree they're not conservatives, but rather self-described conservatives. The racism on the site since Obama's inauguration is astounding. JustGettingItRight (talk) 03:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Trouble is that there is not a unified definition of Conservative. I like the idea of using "self-identified." --BenBurch (talk) 15:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Obama Birth Certificate Conspiracy Theories

If someone can find a reliable source that documents this (not DailyKos), this information should be added. JustGettingItRight (talk) 03:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Google: "Obama is Missing" on Free Republic.

Submitted by: James W. von Brunn on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 "wannabegeek"

That's still original research. At best, it's a first party source and if we go that route then Wikipedia has become a glorified aggregator for FR. Hvatum (talk) 02:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Malia Comments don't belong here

Wikipedia is not a news aggregator. Furthermore there are conflicting reports from various places as to who was even posting the comments. Chris Parry, one of the people reporting on the comments, may have been in fact also posting some of the racist comments. I don't see how such a minor event even belongs on Wikipedia - the article on Daily KOS does not have a section detailing the anti-semitic postings made there. Commentary on an individual thread made at Free Republic or an individual Diary at Daily KOS are not encyclopedia material. And if we're going to go ahead and have sections detailing the content of individual threads or diaries, then at least wait a few weeks for the facts to be clearly established before adding it here. Hvatum (talk) 05:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The Vancouver Sun is a reliable source. If you have some reputable source that backs the Freepers' smears against Parry, feel free to add it. Threads on political boards become encyclopedic material when reported in reputable sources. For example, the article on Democratic Underground reports the criticism from The New York Times and Fox News about the tsunami threads there. If there are similar reports about anti-Semitic threads on Kos, they could also be considered for inclusion in that article. JamesMLane t c 08:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The example you named from the Democratic Underground article only serves to undermine your argument. There are multiple sources for the Tsunami thread criticism. In this case we have one news paper article, in the entertainment section, and it's an ongoing event. If it is going to be kept, it must at least make it clear that it relies on a single source and that single source is not a first line source such as the NYT or Washington post. Furthermore, Chris Parry is a writer for the entertainment section and does not qualify an authority on the subject at hand. If we're going to go about including every event with a single reliable source these pages would quickly become choked. But if you want to go down that road, I could add five or six sections to the Daily KOS article. I'm sure you'll be right there defending all those additions. Personally, I like Daily KOS and I don't think individual diary entries which really don't reflect the average diary should pull the entire Daily KOS article down, but if you insist, then we must go about adding them. (Just one example: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/1161204291.html?dids=1161204291:1161204291&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Nov+03%2C+2006&author=JONATHAN+ROSENBLUM&pub=Jerusalem+Post&desc=Democrats+go+European&pqatl=google) Hvatum (talk) 01:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

gawker.com states, "Hate Speech Against Malia Obama On Conservative Blogs Reported By Hate Speech Planting Journalist... Chris Parry, it appears, has advocated on his Daily Kos blog any number of egregious offenses, among them: posting hate speech on sites like Free Republic and blaming it on conservatives. Parry posted under the name "hollywoodoz" on Daily Kos, where his signature was "Fool me once, I'll punch you in the fucking head." Parry outed himself as hollywoodoz here, where he discloses the company he helped start. In essence: Parry, the journalist, found his story right where he'd been circling it for a very long time, and reported it as news. Sigh. Bottom line: Parry's noble intentions are paving him a road to hell, by taking the same one the slimeball majority at Free Republic employs. They're probably going to cheer a "mainstream," centrist blog pointing out the offenses of a liberal reporter trying to expose hate speech, but they shouldn't get it mixed up. A quick glance at Free Republic and you'll probably see the same thing I did: some of the most egregious examples that lend credence to the idea that some people just shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard, or to open their mouths, no matter what their political affiliation. Or, as some would have it: STFU." Grundle2600 (talk) 22:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Parry's rebuttal to the right-wing smears states that he did indeed post at Daily Kos before joining the Sun. So? You can read his full response by going to www dot freerepublic dot com slash and putting in the rest of the URL: focus/f-news/2290929/posts?q=1&;page=351 (scroll down to post 365). AFAIK, no reliable source has questioned the accuracy of the statements from the Sun story that I added to our article. JamesMLane t c 22:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Addendum: You might also check out posts 428, 481, 499, 528, and 587 later in the same thread. Even some of the Freepers post that they see no evidence to support the charge that Parry advocated posting hate speech and blaming political opponents for it. Parry added some further comments of his own in posts 554-56. Most notably, in posts 593 and 657 Parry denied having posted any of the racist comments about the Obama family.

Also, remember that Parry is within the scope of WP:BLP. Gawker apparently picked up the right-wing smear against Parry without bothering to determine whether it was supportable, but our standards are somewhat higher. JamesMLane t c 00:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

A minor event with one source does not belong here. If a single source sets the standard for worthyness of inclusion, the article on Daily KOS needs five or six sections added to it. Little jabs like this seem a bit petty and pretty minor. Furthermore, Huffington Post actually has an article criticising Parry for even giving such attention to one thread on FR. See my above post.Hvatum (talk) 01:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The matter has been reported by at least a few reliable sources. See Google news: [9], plus these links: [10] [11]   Will Beback  talk  03:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

And we can add in Keith Olbermann featuring the fracas: [12]. As for Hvatum's statement above -- "I don't think individual diary entries which really don't reflect the average diary should pull the entire Daily KOS article down" -- please read the information that I actually inserted in our Free Republic article. The thread was taken down by the FR administrators for review and then restored intact. So the people running the site reviewed this stuff and decided that it was perfectly fine FR content. That's a key fact that makes it a story, and makes it much more revealing about FR than if there were just a few rogue contributors spouting nonsense. If you have information about similar incidents at Kos, feel free to raise the subject on Talk:Daily Kos. Please do not feel free to make assumptions in advance about how I would react to the hypothetical fruits of your hypothetical research. It's hypothetical because when I follow your Jerusalem Post link I see nothing about Kos.

Responses to some irrelevancies: How the Vancouver Sun compares in prestige to The New York Times may not be a matter of universal agreement. The Times has lied to me and has suppressed information in the service of a right-wing agenda. The Sun has not, AFAIK, although of course I don't read it regularly. More to the point, bickering about overall prestige, or carping about Parry's job assignment, is irrelevant here, where there simply is no good-faith dispute about the accuracy of the facts as reported by Parry. If some eminent authority has weighed in with a defense of FR's actions, we can report that opinion along with the criticism of FR. Criticism of Parry for not just letting the story drop would be relevant to his article but not to this one. JamesMLane t c 04:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Free Republic is a forum. The Existence of a thread there does not indicate agreement with its content. It's forum posting guidelines point this out. Even one of the other topics in this very same article points out that fact. Since we've obviously opted to include this nonesense, I've added a section explaining how the posting guidelines work (first person source describing the organziation itself, which is appropriate in since the article is itself about FR.) And the reason you don't see anything about KOS in the link is that you didn't read the article, because you need to pay for it. But here is a link to an article directly comparing it. 24.107.193.248 (talk) 05:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC) http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6805158/Do-the-right-thing-Condemn.html

You're arguing with the wrong guy, I was just quoting Wikipedia's own standards, and the NYT is named as a first tier source by Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources 24.107.193.248 (talk) 05:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Added links to original news articles in two mainstream UK newspapers to provide context and show this was a newsworthy event already being commented upon by mainstream media. Added links indicating that multiple threads were involved at FR. Ironically can't add links to FR even though FR is under discussion. Existence of multiple threads started at different times as shown by Google cache shows inaccuracy of Vancouver Sun article which indicated that there was only one thread involved. Media credibility and fact checking called into question when Olberman cannot even get basic facts right. A news item does not become more reputable when it is single sourced and picked up by others who introduce new errors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.125.28 (talk) 00:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Your links to mainstream newspapers have nothing to do with Free Republic beyond the undisputed fact that Malia Obama wore the t-shirt, a fact that's already disclosed in our article. (I agree that this should be in there, because otherwise many readers might suspect that the Freepers were wrong about even that basic fact.) You seem to assume that the reason for including the incident here is the charge that it wasn't a newsworthy event and didn't deserve to be commented on. In fact, however, the reason for including the incident here is the tenor of the comments on FR and the admins' approval thereof. Your mainstream newspaper links don't call this young girl "ghetto street trash".

Other comments of yours:

• "Existence of multiple threads started at different times as shown by Google cache shows inaccuracy of Vancouver Sun article which indicated that there was only one thread involved." That violates WP:NOR. Furthermore, even if it were reported by reliable sources, it wouldn't be worth including; the point made in the Sun article is that this thread was taken down and then restored intact, so what did or did not happen with other threads is irrelevant.
• "Media credibility and fact checking called into question when Olberman cannot even get basic facts right." That Olbermann (not Olberman, as has already been pointed out to you, O persnickety one) got Robinson's name wrong is not a fact that tells the Wikipedia reader much about Free Republic. I don't think it's very informative even about Olbermann, but if you disagree, go to Talk:Keith Olbermann and propose adding it. I'd suggest modifying your wording to take account of WP:NPOV, which your edit here violated.
• Furthermore, sniping in general terms at "[m]edia credibility" is irrelevant to the FR article. I wrote above, "AFAIK, no reliable source has questioned the accuracy of the statements from the Sun story that I added to our article." No one has yet disputed that assertion. I agree with you that the corporate media don't have much credibility (consider, for example, their craven parroting of Bush administration lies about Iraq), but that's not a subject for inclusion in the FR article.
• "A news item does not become more reputable when it is single sourced and picked up by others who introduce new errors." As explained above, political message boards like FR and DU are filled with controversies. Third-party coverage of them in reputable sources is rare, however. That's why this story merits inclusion here.

I'm glad to see that you've stopped your unilateral reverts. Nevertheless, your proposed insert is unencyclopedic and not in conformity with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I suggest that you instead look for a quotation from some prominent person who speaks in defense of FR on this subject. It it's properly cited, we can report that opinion. JamesMLane t c 05:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

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I have not stopped.

I added a rebuttal by FreeRepublic spokesman appearing on MSNBC. Realclearpolitics is cited all over Wiki. I checked. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&as_q=realclearpolitics&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=wikipedia.org&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

If find it astonishing that a Wiki article about what FreeRepublic posts cannot include any links to FR. Even in the discussion. Links to FR would indicate the admins found and pulled multiple threads which is relevant to the story because it indicates diligence on their part.

If a news report is critical of a website, and that news report is cited in Wiki, how can the neutrality policy not be violated when links to that website are prohibited? There are ALWAYS two sides to every story and the news media is wrong more than it's right.

I dispute that articles retrieved from the Google Cache constitute "original research" any more than digging up an article from some media website. There are citations to Google cache all over wiki. The google cache is a widely acknowledged factual record of what was actually posted at a particular website at a particular time.

I would have posted the the FR links but they were rejected even in the discussion. Even Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Extremist_and_fringe_sources are allowed self reference and FR is not one.

Here are the cached Google pages.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:58O9Kqe6xL0J:www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2288933/posts+site:freerepublic.com+Miss+Obama%27s+peacenik+T-shirt+sends+a+message+to+G8+leaders&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:85Esefyz0QsJ:www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2288379/posts+site:freerepublic.com+Miss+Obama%27s+peacenik+T-shirt+sends+a+message+to+G8+leaders&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Speaking of "neutrality". The Daily Kos and the Democratic Underground websites operate in the same manner as Free Republic but from an opposing point of view. The Wiki page for each contains numerous links directly to www.dailykos.com and www.democraticunderground.com, respectively. Both sites are widely cited on Wiki and not just at their own pages. There are plenty of vile posting on those two sites. If you want I'll find for you the post in Daily Kos by hollywoodoz aka Chris Parry talking about bashing in Barbara Bush's head with a fire extinguisher and then running around and laughing.

This is a clear double standard in operation which violates your WP:NPOV. Since you appear to be an expert in this I ask that you explain the difference.

Speaking of neutrality, I find this quote particularly troubling. I agree that this should be in there, because otherwise many readers might suspect that the Freepers were wrong about even that basic fact —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.125.28 (talk) 23:54, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit to add: Here is a quote from your home page Hostile to the right wing All is now clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.125.28 (talk) 00:04, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

A link to a comment by a spokesperson for FR may be appropriate, but unfortunately at the moment I can't play the video (computer troubles). That your addition of the link was reverted is partly your own fault. The addition was part of this set of edits of yours, which began with the irrelevancies about Malia Obama that you had been unilaterally re-inserting without discussion. It's not surprising that another editor saw that and reverted the whole thing. Yes, ideally, an editor would patiently review each change to see if a disruptive anon had actually come up with something worthwhile, but I don't always do that and MiB-24 didn't, either. That one aspect of your reverted edit might merit inclusion. It would have to be described accurately, though. I found a partial transcript which showed Kristinn to be disputing the Daily Kos stories, without mentioning the Vancouver Sun. We should not put words in Kristinn's mouth.

If your question about an alleged "double standard" refers to our handling of vile posts on political message boards, the answer is that a vile post, by itself, doesn't merit mention. If it did, we could quickly fill up several pages with vile posts from Free Republic. We're including this particular set of vile posts because (1) it's received third-party coverage in the mainstream media, and (2) the thread was restored by the admins after review, an action that sheds light on the operation of the website (not just on the opinions of whatever random lunatics happened to open an account). If you think there are vile posts on Kos or DU that meet those criteria and should be included in one of those articles, take it up on the appropriate talk page.

If your question is about linking directly, the answer is that we can't link directly to Free Republic because it's on the list of blacklisted sites. I don't know why. I have no involvement with blacklisting. Perhaps someone was spamming FR links. If FR met the criteria for blacklisting, we would have no obligation to continue to allow the links just because some similar but progressive websites do not meet the criteria.

As to your final comments, WP:NPOV does not apply to talk pages and user pages. JamesMLane t c 19:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Free Republic "Comments"

The introduction to this article doesn't mention that people can post comments to the articles posted there. The comments are a very important component of the site. They are also where the sometimes controversial material appears. I propose to make the following change at the end of the first paragraph:

Users Visitors can see the full article at its original source by clicking a hyperlink beneath the headline. Registered users can post comments below the article summaries.

I don't have a source for this, but it seems to be such a simple and easily verifiable statement that a source isn't needed; further, IMHO no source is likely ever to report such an elementary matter. Lou Sander (talk) 20:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)