Talk:French language/Archive 6

Archive 1

←

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Lead

French (French: français [fʁɑ̃sɛ] or langue française [lɑ̃ɡ fʁɑ̃sɛːz]) is a Romance language of the Indo-European family.

Should be changed to:

French (endonym: français [fʁɑ̃sɛ] or langue française [lɑ̃ɡ fʁɑ̃sɛːz]) is a Romance language of the Indo-European family.

(If you can’t see the difference look at it in wiki text) 2A01:B340:82:8F97:99C9:2F9E:8DDE:B377 (talk) 16:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Why should it be so? I am aware that you're mass editing every unlocked article of European languages, but wouldn't it be easier to leave things just as they are, or spell out the language, as in: French (French: français [fʁɑ̃sɛ]...)? –Austronesier (talk) 17:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

They reason I think it should is:

• in this version there are lang tags and IPA tags (current version doesn’t have them)
• I think it is better to use endonym label than duplicate the language’s name, it lets readers learn a new term if they don’t already and it makes it clearer that it is an endonym compared to pages that don’t use it, e.g. Spanish (espangol), etc., I think it’s fine to reduplicate the name though.

The main focus of my suggestion was meant to be to use lang tags and IPA tags (which the lead currently does not do). You can see them if you look at original comment in wiki text. 2A01:B340:82:8F97:18FD:6DF6:D80E:B6A9 (talk) 17:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind, I see now that the lead already uses lang tags and IPA lags, my bad. 2A01:B340:82:8F97:18FD:6DF6:D80E:B6A9 (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I am unsure about the placement of "endonym" everywhere. Here it would avoid repetition of French, but, for Instance, on Dutch Language it just had nederlands and no label, whereas now it does. I am not so opposed to it as to go mass reverting, but I am not sure what it gains. If a reader has to click off the page to look up a word, rather than answering their information need on this page we are showing off our vocabulary and slowing that reader down. It seems to be a case of the word drawing too much attention to itself. On the other hand, it is accurate. Not convinced it is better. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd prefer no label at all, so "French (français"; "Dutch (nederlands", etc. Which was previously done at Dutch language. If a standard needs to be made, best raise with WP:LANGUAGES, unless already discussed or under another project. But I find linking "endonym" very out of place considering the language is used on all other references (which understandably doesn't work here as a self-link), plus technically it is a "endolinguonym". DankJae 22:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2024

in the part where all the subnational that adopted french as their main language are listed, you missed Québec, it is a canadian province that made the Official language act of 1974, and therefore made french the official language, so just add Québec in the subnational section 😄 2605:B100:515:E63B:7DBE:46A1:53B9:F082 (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

But as it is an official language of Canada, it is not needed at subnational level. Not setting this to done/not done yet, to see what other editors think. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:01, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Mostly agree with Sirfurboy, adding Quebec would be redundant and opens the door to adding basically every subdivision of all French speaking countries. I am anticipating an objection about the fact that the overseas collectivities of France are also independently listed, but I think leaving them there is fine, given their special semi-autonomous status that distinguishes them from other subnational divisions. Liu1126 (talk) 19:04, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 19:22, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox map

We have no criterion for what counts as a local minority, and coloring a whole state fluorescent green because there are expats in one city is misleading (plus why shouldn't, say, Mexico count?), so I removed the green. Vietnam isn't even 1% francophone. I'm happy to put it back if we can come to an agreement as to what should count as green. However, I did change Romania to light blue, as it's part of the francophonie, and added Andorra. (Though removed Syria.) And added the Channel Isles as official. From this map I rediscovered that French is an official language of Puducherry, so I added that to the infobox of this article.

Anyway, if there are other changes that need to be made to the map, could people list them here? Is the green worth restoring? Maybe as small squares the way it's done on e.g. the map for Italian? — kwami (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Surely being part of the Francophonie (Romania) is not enough on its own, since you excluded Vietnam (which is also a member)? Double sharp (talk) 07:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I'll remove Romania.

Romania's made a big deal about French, Vietnam not so much, and there are many more French speakers in Romania, percentage-wise, though all the talk might be part of separating itself from the Eastern Block and re-orientating to the West. By raw numbers, there aren't as many Francophones in Romania as in several other European countries which are left grey (Netherlands, Italy, Portugal). — kwami (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Thanks!

When I read such language maps, honestly the questions I'm most interested in are: if I go there, (1) will the signs be in language X? (2) will a significant number of people generally understand me if I speak to them in language X? (3) do people naturally speak language X to each other, or do they just learn it for school and chatting up foreigners? (4) even if (1) and (3) aren't true in most regions, might they be true for a region where a linguistic minority is concentrated? I guess Romania might fit (2) but not (1), (3), and (4), based on the high percentage of French speakers. But I think (2) is a separate thing not on the map (it's more like the map under English language#Geographical distribution), though I'd be curious about it for de Swaan's 13 supercentral languages. (And for (2) as phrased, I guess it would become tricky for cases of mutual intelligibility, like going to Azerbaijan and speaking to the locals in Turkish.) Double sharp (talk) 08:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree Romania (and Syria) should be removed. French Polynesia and New Caledonia should be dark blue as French is the largest language spoken at home in those terrirories. It would be cool if there was some way to show the significant populations of native French speakers in Libreville, Yaoundé, and Abidjan even if the countries as a whole are not native francophone. Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 17:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Joiedevivre123321: all but the last had already been done, but someone replaced the corrected map with an old one. I restored it -- is that better?

We could certainly add francophone communities in cities. The question for me would be consistency -- do we have a RS for which cities to include? E.g. London was once counted as one of them. — kwami (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! This map is much better. I feel like the overseas territories should all be dark blue though. Reunion, Guinee Française, Guadeloupe, and Martinique are all majority native Francophone. Mayotte is mostly French as a second language so I think the lighter color is appropriate for that one. That's just me being nitpicky though the map looks great! Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 19:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

According to Ethnologue, Reunion is 20% natively French-speaking, French Guiana 8%, Martinique 4% and Guadeloupe 2%. — kwami (talk) 20:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Good catch. I guess the creoles are often not fully intelligible with French from the Hexagon and are their own thing. Merci pour la carte! :) Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 14:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Kwamikagami,

If there is a way we could show native proficiency of French in Gabon.

Based on this research, it is apparent French is natively spoken at an ever increasing rate across the entire country.

Paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327159_From_foreign_to_national_a_review_of_the_status_of_French_in_Gabon

Key facts:

"It has been noted that French is increasingly be-coming the mother tongue and the initial language of the younger generations in urban Gabon (Pambou, 1998:147; Ndinga-Koumba-Binza, 2005a:72 & 2005b:141; Idiata, 2008:85; cf. Blanchon, 1994). In fact, studies by Ntong Amvame (1984), Bouché (1998), Mbondzi (1998), Ompoussa (1998), Itembo (1999) and Mouloungui Nguimbyt (2002) have shown that pupils of various ages and grades at schools learn French more efficiently than any other Gabonese language. Idiata (2008:200 & 2009:126) has also noted that some pupils do not speak any of the Gabonese native languages at all.

One of the reasons for this phenomenon (i.e. French being the mother tongue of younger generations) is cross-ethnic marriages.

In fact, many couples of mixed ethnicity prefer French rather than Gabonese native languages as the code for better communication within the family. Children from a family of this kind have no choice but to acquire French as their first language. The children learn the language at home from the parents before they even get to school, therefore lessening the chances of learning any of the Gabonese native languages.

This urbanisation is also to be considered as a cause for French being the initial language of Gabonese younger generations. In fact, “in certain urban contexts there is a large degree of learning by contact at an early age” (Lafage, 1993:216)."

1. 80% of the country speaks French. ( La Francophonie dans le monde 2006-2007 published by the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie. Nathan, Paris, 2007)
2. French is spoken natively in the urban areas. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327159_From_foreign_to_national_a_review_of_the_status_of_French_in_Gabon)
3. Urbanization rate of Gabon is at 90.42% in 2021. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/526989/urbanization-in-gabon/)
4. Almost every adult in Gabon can speak French. (https://www.britannica.com/place/Gabon/Economy)

It is clear this is more than just an official language.

It is similar to the Portuguese language in Angola, and the status should be reflected as such.

Thanks! IntelloFR (talk) 04:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

(sorry the link for point 4 should be this: https://www.britannica.com/place/Gabon ) IntelloFR (talk) 04:25, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I had no idea Gabon was so urban! Our map at 'urbanization' shows it as perhaps the highest in Africa.

I agree, if Gabon fits the criteria, it should be colored appropriately. Do you know of any actual figures? Because what you have basically just says "a lot", which while interesting isn't helpful. — kwami (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Ethnologue has the following:

1,515,000 [French-speakers] in Gabon, all users. L1 users: 265,000 in Gabon (2021). L2 users: 1,250,000 (Marcoux et al 2022).

That's for a population of 2,233,000 [no date].

From that, it would seem that Gabon is 2∕3 French-speaking, but only 12% natively French-speaking. That's still a high number, and promises to only increase, but it's not high enough to warrant coloring Gabon as an L1 rather than L2 French-speaking country. — kwami (talk) 04:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

That is fair! Thanks for checking - I agree, it will only increase in the coming years IntelloFR (talk) 05:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Since the 2nd part of this discussion has been moved to Commons, should note here that we decided to add a dot for Libreville, Gabon. — kwami (talk) 08:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

How did Ethnologue come up with those numbers? Most of the people in the DOM (Mayotte excepted) speak both French and their local creole. 2600:1702:6D0:5160:4CB6:57CF:7727:27B1 (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Double sharp, Joiedevivre123321, IntelloFR, Moalli, and M.Bitton: Discussion picked up again, but per request and consent I moved it to Commons:File_talk:Map-Francophone_World.svg#Discussion from WP-en. Zorion provided a ref for Canada there. — kwami (talk) 08:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@Double sharp@Joiedevivre123321@Moalli@Kwamikagami

Hi all, Mali is now a different color entirely on the map, this should probably be updated. IntelloFR (talk) 14:44, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Math

I’m going back in a little while and I’ll let her out 2001:1A40:16F4:BF00:1D87:ECBA:3F91:ADA5 (talk) 15:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2024

change "Quebec Board of the French Language" to "Quebec Office of the French Language", "office" is in its french name as well 108.255.197.210 (talk) 04:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 12:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2024

In the "Numerals" section under "Vocabulary", this part should be replaced : In the case of currencies, the currency markers are substituted for decimal point, i.e. "5$7" for "5 dollars and 7 cents". By : In the case of currencies, practices differ depending on the currency. For euro, the currency marker can be subsistuted for decimal point, i.e. "5€07" for "5 euros and 7 cents", or be simply placed after the decimal number, i.e. "5,07€". When using other currencies, the latter option is preferred, for example "5,07$". Snekye (talk) 19:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

 Question: So... what changes do you exactly request? ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 12:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)