Talk:Friedrich Kellner/Archive 1

Remark from Adam

Dear R S Kellner, I mean no disrespect to your grandfather, who was obviously a very brave man, but this article is unencyclopaedic in places and needs an edit. You cannot refer to him by his first name. You cannot make comments like "the insanity of their leader, the Führer Adolf Hitler." It must be written in a neutral tone throughout, hard though that may be. Also, you say that Kellner engaged in acts of open resistance to the Nazi regime, yet not only was he not arrested, he was not even (if I read your text correctly) dismissed from his judicial position. This seems highly unlikely. Perhaps you can clarify this. Adam 11:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for writing, Adam. I have followed your advice. I have performed a major editing operation on the entry to bring it in line with Wikipedia standards. There is a Kellner entry on the Deutsch Wikipedia that fulfills that requirement, and I more closely mirrored its layout and details here in the English Wikipedia. If you would, please let me know what you think about the rewrite. Regarding your question as to why my grandfather was not arrested or at least dismissed from his job, he was exceedingly lucky in that regard. And he knew it -- particularly after the war when he got to read some of the official Nazi reports about him. There are PDF documents at the George Bush Presidential Library website about the occasions he was called in before the authorities (most notably, the Hermann Engst report). Fortunately for my grandfather, his position as the Chief Justice Inspector in the district court gave him a certain immunity from arbitrary arrest (the Third Reich had special requirements for arresting its own officials). Also, my grandfather was knowledgeable about the corrupt activities of his fellow officials (Laubach was a town of only 2,000 people), and they feared my grandfather because of that. Nevertheless, as you will see in the reports, the Nazis intended "to take care of him" after the war. These documents, and numerous accounts of my grandfather's resistance to the Nazis are available in the links in the entry. The Justus Liebig University link will take you to a fairly complete collection of articles about various aspects of his life. The documentary movie recently made in Canada about my grandfather (and about me, as well), further explores his active, as well as passive, resistance. There is a separate Wikpedia site for that movie: My Opposition: the Diaries of Friedrich Kellner. Again, thank you for your interest in improving the entry about my grandfather. That is certainly my aim, too, and I truly appreciate all the advice I can get. Please feel free to email me at rskellner AT cox DOT net and I will be happy to share more information with you. I am hoping this further information might help you to reconsider your thoughts about him being included on the German Resistance page. Robert Scott Kellner Rskellner 13:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia standards

This article should focus IMHO on the biography, not the diary, nor on later events or interpretations. I'll try to assist a little. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       23:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have read your corrections, and I agree they have improved the article (although I do think the revision by Adam concerning the regimental name was necessary). Please do continue with your help. Because of my own subjectivity about this topic (Friedrich Kellner being my grandfather), I fully realize the need for objective readers and editors. And I greatly appreciate the help. My email address is rskellner AT cox DOT net and I would be happy to provide you with any additional information you might wish. Again, thanks. Scott Rskellner 04:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Scott, I went a little too far looking up and writing down the family relations and actually saving them, but one has to remember that the Great War was also caused, or at least not prevented, by too close personal relations. I will have no time within the next weeks, which comes in handy as, honestly speaking, crossing the path of Adam was not always a pleasure, especially when German matters are involved - I guess hand-written Sütterlin must be the mother of all ß then. The revert back to a 4 hour old version of mine undid also these edits. Shortening the surplus sentences from the latest version would have been enough. As I had saved a newer version in between, an "edit conflict warning" must have been given automatically. Regarding "a small town a few miles from the Dutch border", de:Laubach (Begriffsklärung) offers several to choose from. The currently linked town in Hessen does not fit this description, and the SPD-Laubach.de link seems to be wrong too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthead (talk • contribs) 05:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

Matthead

• Please sign your edits - my tolerance for anonymous edits is very close to zero.
• I'm sorry if I reverted good edits along with your mass of irrelevant additions, but if you do such silly things, which you must know are unencyclopaedic, you must expect this.
• The causes of the Great War have nothing to do with this article. Haben Sie einen schönen Tag. Adam 09:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello again, Matthead: Friedrich and Pauline Kellner lived in the Laubach in Hessen, near Giessen, about 30 miles north of Frankfurt. Thank you very much for double-checking the link to SPD-Laubach. I had not realized the website had been updated. I have now corrected my link to show the current page where they list the book "1925-2000: 75 Jahre Sozialdemokratische Partei Laubach." My grandfather is mentioned in the book for helping to restore the Laubach SPD after the war and becoming the chairman of the local branch. I also took a look at your reference to "Vossstrasse." No doubt the German use of the double-S causes great consternation among translators. I have noticed that discussions about such matters often get heated between Wikipedia editors. I am trying with all my might not to get caught up in the Wikipedia Wars. I am close to 70 years of age, and my constitution couldn't stand it. As for the diary being written in Suetterlin, thank you for commisserating. Yes, it is a big challenge -- and headache. Happily, my grandfather was very precise when it came to handwriting. My biggest problem is that I learned German in just a few college courses, and I visited with my grandparents only a few times in Germany, and I seldom have a chance to hear German or to speak it. So translating the diary was an extraordinary challenge for me, and took decades. Scott Rskellner 16:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Quotes

This was a good article to read and I thank you for your contributions toward it. One thing that jumped out immediately to me is the large number of quotes. Would you be able to provide web page sources or page citations from the diary for the quotes? I can assist with integrating these references into the Wiki system, if you'd like. Olessi 03:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you about the need to identify the quotes more specifically, and I greatly appreciate your offer to help me in placing the references on the Kellner page.

• The quote in the Introduction was made in a conversation with me in Mainz in 1968, when he gave the diary to me.

• The Gutenberg quote (in the Political Activism section) also was told to me in that conversation in 1968. This quote has been printed in some German newspapers; for example, in an article written by Frank Schmidt-Wyk in the Mainz Allgemeine Zeitung, published September 24, 2005.

• The first two diary quotes of June 25, 1941, (The War Years section) appear on page 77 of the dairy.

• The last quote in The War Years section, October 28, 1941, appears on page 112 (a copy of this page is in Wikimedia Commons).

I hate to put you to trouble. Should I simply tack on this information at the end of each quote? Scott--Rskellner 17:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I should be able to integrate all of the quotations into a references section, with the exception of the quote in the introduction. Would that happen to be published anywhere? According to WP:ATT, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true". If the quote in question is solely from a personal dialogue, I would recommend replacing it with a similarly-themed quotation from the diary or from a published source. Olessi 17:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, self-published sources are often frowned upon, but you should meet Exception #2 of that page ("Professional self-published sources"). To clarify the credentials, I will add "professor of technical writing at Texas A&M University" (found here). Olessi 17:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the first quote was published in the German newspaper "Giessener Anzeiger," in Giessen, Germany, written by Klemens Hogen-Ostlender on April 6, 2005 -- where it appears in the original language of the quote. The quote has also been published in English in a UPI (United Press International) story in the Washington Times, in an article by Phil Magers on March 25, 2005. But I do not know if this appeared in the hard copy of the paper or was only limited to their online version. Perhaps it would be better to credit the German paper.

And also yes, please do use my credentials if that will help to substantiate the work. I do understand the difficulties in quoting from an unpublished source or a self-published source.

After you informed me about the need for better documentation, I went to the Friedrich Kellner Diary page, and I added in the page numbers after the many quotes there. When I see how you have formatted the biography page, I will attempt to follow your lead in the diary page -- and then perhaps you would be kind enough to double-check my work to be sure it is right. Thanks very much for all this help. Scott --Rskellner 17:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I can gladly assist with the formatting for it. Would you happen to know which Battle of the Marne your grandfather participated in, the First (1914) or Second (1918)? Also, does the diary have a formal title (for instance, Anne Frank's is titled The Diary of a Young Girl). The external links give several options: The Friedrich Kellner Diaries, The Diary of Friedrich Kellner, The Diaries of Friedrich Kellner etc. The current article title Friedrich Kellner Diary suggests that is the formal title; if there is no formal title, I would suggest renaming the article to Friedrich Kellner diary or Diary of Friedrich Kellner. Olessi 18:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

He fought in the First Battle of the Marne in 1914. He titled his diary "Mein Widerstand," which in English means "My Opposition." There is a separate website about the Canadian film, My Opposition: the Diaries of Friedrich Kellner. Perhaps the Friedrich Kellner Diary article should be renamed to Friedrich Kellner diary, as you suggest (without the capital "D"). And in response to this valid concern about the title of the diary itself, I have just now added this information to the The Diary section in the diary article:

• The diary, which Friedrich Kellner titled "Mein Widerstand," meaning "My Opposition," is divided into ten volumes, with a total of 861 pages. There are 676 individual dated entries. Included among the pages of the diary are more than 500 newspaper clippings.

Hopefully, this will do the trick. But how do I change the title name to put "Diary" in the lower case? Scott--Rskellner 18:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Since the actual title is My Opposition, I would suggest moving the page to My Opposition. Redirects can be made for the other names the diary is known by. If you agree with the moving rationale, feel free to try moving the article yourself; I can provide assistance if help is desired. Olessi 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll give it a try. Is there some easy Wiki way to get all the references throughout Wiki to Friedrich Kellner Diary automatically changed to My Opposition? Scott--Rskellner 19:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

WOW - ON SECOND THOUGHT, considering the ramifications involved (all the references made to that page not only in Wiki but outside Wiki) I would greatly prefer to just keep the original name, even though there is a bit of ambiguity as to whether that is the name of the diary itself. I can easily mention the diary's actual name within the text. Scott--Rskellner 19:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

A Google search does gives a number of hits, but Google initially lists more hits than are actually provided. Also, sometimes sites copy the content of Wikipedia (Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks), and those sites are irrelevant to our goal of accuracy. I don't think we should base our titling on external sites referencing Wikipedia; we should title the article with the most accurate title of the book. From Wikipedia:Naming_conventions (books)#Precision, "Wikipedia's NPOV policy includes not to tamper with what authors of notable works want to express with the title they give to their work."

Additionally, movement of the article from Friedrich Kellner Diary to My Opposition (or Mein Widerstand, Friedrich Kellner diary, etc.) would automatically create a redirect to the new title, so there is no need to worry about updating the links in other articles. For instance, yesterday I moved Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg to the name he is most commonly known in English by, the anglicized Henry Steinway. Instead of having the system delete the previous title, it turns it into a redirect, so all articles mentioning the piano maker still get to where they are intended.

Some editors use "bots" to automate the process of updating specific tasks, such as link updates or renamings; I have not used bots before. Since there is not a particularly large number of articles that mention the diary yet, I could quickly update the internal Wikipedia links referencing the article manually, however. Olessi 20:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

ALSO, YOU'VE DONE A HERCULEAN JOB this morning with the Friedrich Kellner page, and I do feel grateful to you. Thank you very much. The page is much improved because of your work. I will study the editing codes you used and try to duplicate them on the Diary page. I remember, though, a while back I tried to include reference codes and it didn't take. But that was on German Wikipedia. Hopefully I'll have better luck here. Scott--Rskellner 20:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The current referencing system on Wikipedia is not very friendly to newcomers, and it doesn't help that there is not a standardized system for it. Wikipedia:Citing sources lists some ways to do it.

Many editors use the footnotes system ("<ref>"). Helpful examples and guides are given at Wikipedia:Footnotes and Help:Footnotes.

For detailed citations, I use a mixture of Footnotes and References, like I have done at Frederick II of Prussia and in this Friedrich Kellner article. In the References section, I list all of the sources used with the "citation templates". There are templates available for books, journals, papers, websites, etc. Instead of listing the full information of a source within the article text, it is all included near the end of the article. The aforementioned footnotes style is used within the article text instead to create the page number references. In the separate Footnotes section, I add {{reflist}} (instead of the suggested <references/>.

If you ever have questions and are not sure where to ask, a good resource is the Wikipedia:Help desk. Cheers, Olessi 20:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I was successful in placing the reference numbers in the Diary page. I do want to follow the Wiki rules, so I will try to move the page. I sure wish I knew more about those bots. They sure can come in handy. Scott--Rskellner 20:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This is the renamed page: My Opposition (the Friedrich Kellner diary)- Scott --Rskellner 20:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed a few of the links to correspond with the new page name, but then I noticed that the redirect system works so well, that there is no reason for me to change the link names. Apparently clicking on the old link name takes you immediately to the new page. And as I consider the name change, I totally agree that it is a change for the better. So thank you for your advice and your hard work. Scott --Rskellner 21:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks like your move process went through A-OK! The redirects are indeed very handy and easy to make. Would you consider the current article title the official title of the diary then? If so, I think My Opposition (The Friedrich Kellner Diary) would be the "best" title (proper noun). If you appended "(the Friedrich Kellner diary)" for disambiguation or simply informative purposes, I would say such an addition is unnecessary (it will be described in the article introduction anyway), and the best title would simply be My Opposition. Olessi 21:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the title should be as it is. Not all titles have every word capitalized. For example, the 1997 book by Leah Rabin (which I have in front of me) is called: RABIN Our Life, His Legacy. Quite a variety of capital letter usage. So I don't believe we need to make a second name change. Scott--Rskellner 21:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is even a better example -- and kind of cute. The title of the Bantam Books Matrix edition of the writings of Karl Marx, edited by Arthur Mendel, has no capitals at all in the title: "essential works of marxism." That's cute, because Marx was against capitalism. You've got to laugh. Scott--Rskellner 22:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

After all is said and done, the final name change for the page is as you suggested, My Opposition. Thanks for all your help. ScottRskellner 13:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)