Talk:Furry Dance

Floras in other towns & redirect

Didn't flora dances used to take place in many Cornish towns (or do they still)? I know in the C19th they used to have them on fair days etc. in a few places. Would this be relevant in the article? Also "FLORA DANCE" doesn't seem to redirect here. --Cornishman5040 (talk) 22:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes Furrys did and still do take place in other towns, A furry is recorded in Penzance in the 19th century, St Day has its own furry dance and many others - Even the tune was not excluisive to Helston at one point being called "John the Bone" - Paul band is said to have played it in 1896 as part of the Nelwyn riots. Reedgunner (talk) 09:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

British Custom

The Furry Dance or Floral Dance is a British custom. Using the term British Isles implies incorrectly that it is also practised in Ireland. Either please provide a reference or citation to support the idea that this British custom is practised elsewhere, or please leave the article as it is. --Bardcom (talk) 12:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a Cornish tradition, the Furry Dance. But this type of activity takes place throughout England and elsewhere in what we call the British Isles. It's OK to mention that fact. FootballPhil (talk) 12:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Using the term British Isles implies that it is a shared cultural aspect across the entire British Isles, whereas it is only practised in England (?). When you say "elsewhere", where are you referring? --Bardcom (talk) 10:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, you could argue it is unique to Cornwall. The sentence is merely saying it is one of the oldest customs of any sort in the BI. TharkunColl (talk) 11:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't say "of any sort". But accepting this meaning, how old is it? How do you quantify "one of the oldest"? I bet it wouldn't even make the Top 10 oldest dances *or* customs. Have you a reference (I've looked unsuccessfully) or it is just more WP:OR? --Bardcom (talk) 12:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I didn't write it. But the same objection applies to any geographical area you specify. TharkunColl (talk) 15:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually it doesn't. The onus is on the editor to provide references and citations to back up any claims. I thought that since you were supporting the current claim, you had some sort of reference or citation to back it up. Any claim must be supported by references if queried. From the provided reference, it states that it is one of the oldest customs in the country - I assume country to be analagous to "United Kingdom" in this regard, although it could equally apply to "England". The other reference is broken. I've found another reference on Google Books here [1] that says it is the "most interesting observance of antiquity in Cornwall" and goes on to say that "there is hardly any custom existing in England that is of greater antiquity that it, with the exception, of course, of the coronation of the Kings, and ..." etc. Some other very interesting information here too that would be a great addition to the article - such as the likely origin of the word "Furry", and the link to Roman times. On this basis, do you object to changing the term to state "England"? --Bardcom (talk) 17:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, The Furry Dance is indeed one of the oldest such rituals in the British Isles. There may be older ones, but dating these customs to their origins can be difficult at times. Maybe someone could come up with an older example and then the contested sentence could be removed, but even then, it is surely "one" of the oldest f this particular type. These events do take place mainly in England and there are similar ones in some parts of Ireland, not so much in Scotland. FootballPhil (talk) 17:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I found this: http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Flora_Day.htm. Is it any use here? FootballPhil (talk) 17:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well that's quite explicit - and it's its official homepage as well. In a more general note to Bardcom - even in those cases where Great Britain might be more appropriate (though not here), be sure to call it simply "Britain" prior to the 17th century, as "Great" only became popular under the Stuarts. TharkunColl (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It's of no use here really - see WP:OR and WP:V - it's not a good source. It seems to be a "Friend of Cornwall" site. I don't know what it is exactly, but it wouldn't qualify as a verifiable source. Tharky - are you looking at the same site? Yellow. Kinda same as http://www.soskernow.co.uk/ ? The book reference is the best I can come up with. Tharky, thanks for the tip on "Britain" - some editors don't like to use this as a wikilink though because it goes to a dab page. --Bardcom (talk) 19:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

You would have to pipe "Britain" to whichever was appropriate (e.g. Great Britain, if you mean the island). In the archaeological literature, British Isles is used for all prehistoric periods, precisely in order to make no political statements. In the Roman period it becomes possible to distinguish between Britain and Ireland. The term Great Britain is only appropriate from 1603 onwards, and is far more of a political concept than British Isles was ever meant to be. TharkunColl (talk) 23:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

OK. Interesting - I always thought that "Great Britain" was just the term for the island and didn't realize it had a political connotation. I understand that there are certain "scientific" fields where the term "British Isles is common and often appropriate .... fauna for example, and geology. Archaeology depends on time periods, but yes, it can also. I've no problems with that. --Bardcom (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

If we need a link from the British Isles to the Furry Dance would this be any good then?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tSEcRkPO_C0C&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=%22Furry+Dance%22+%22British+Isles%22&source=web&ots=7iRzALztsn&sig=LODG6SFqPlIeJxVYu1GjKQ0bDKA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result It's a google books search. There are several other sources like this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FootballPhil (talk • contribs) 20:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi FootballPhil, it's a good find. Unfortunately what it says doesn't help with the claim. The referenced sourced must make a statement that backs up the claim. There's also the type of reference too - some books may not carry the same weight as others, so for example, a book on P.E. is unlikely to overwrite a book on historic customs, etc. --Bardcom (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, how about this one then:

"Even in the British Isles, there are still a few remnants of ancient dragon processions for good spring weather. At one time there were a great many such festivals. Most of the significance has been lost because of extreme propaganda by the church. In Britain many of the dragon figures carried in the processions have been destroyed. One of the few remaining is carried each May as part of the Helston Furry Dance."

Dancing with Dragons by D. J. Conway (p176). Published 1995

This is also on Google Books if you want to search it. FootballPhil (talk) 16:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi FootballPhil, we need a reference that says that the Furry Dance is "one of the oldest customs still practised in the British Isles today". The reference you've found doesn't say this - I know it might look like it could be inferred, but references must be clear and unambiguous. Read WP:SYNTH in particular. Also, if you check, you'll find more references (and possibly better references) that say that it is the oldest in Britain. This is the main reason to change the article to Britain - because we can find a good reference for the claim of Britain. --Bardcom (talk) 17:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me for saying so, but I think you are asking just a little too much here. It can be easily inferred from the latest reference, and from others, that this custom is one of the oldest in the British Isles. As to whether we say British Isles or Britain is, to my mind, a minor point in this article. There are many other more important facts in the article for which you are not requiring references. On balance, describing this activity as taking place in the British Isles is better than just Britain because the type of heritage we are talking about here is common across the British Isles. FootballPhil (talk) 20:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You've raised a number of points here. The rules about references are not mine - they are the rules across the board for all wikipedia articles. It is not me that is looking for "too much", but the rules of wikipedia that require references to be provided for any claims. I pointed out in the direction of some of the relevant policies earlier....

But this does lead to the logical question - why is the claim being questioned? Well, I did that. I disagree with the idea that the term "Britain" can be swapped for the term "British Isles". There's a lot already written about this on Wikipedia already - it you're interested, start with Talk:British Isles, Terminology of the British Isles and British Isles naming dispute. Hope that helps. --Bardcom (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

British Isles is a term that applies to the whole group of islands and is devoid of any political connotations - which is why it is often the prefered term. If one is discussing a cultural phenomenon that predates any modern state, then it is clearly the best term to use. TharkunColl (talk) 23:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that you and I probably agree on most usage scenarios, but that we disagree on particular ones. This is one I disagree with you on.

I agree that British Isles is a term that applies to the whole group of islands and that is *should* be devoid of political connotations. In general, we tend to disagree on using the "British Isles" as a geographic region particularly when discussing things British, or things that don't appear relevant to the entire region (e.g. I'm thinking frost fairs :-). When making claims of "the oldest" or "the biggest", etc, in the British Isles, I think it is reasonable to use the region that references use. In this case, since the Furry Dance references use the term "Britain", "British", and "Great Britain", we should stick with one of these. If a good quality reference can be found that states it is one of the oldest customs in the British Isles, I would agree to accept that. --Bardcom (talk) 23:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

(summary)Since no references can be found to back up "British Isles" in a reasonable time period, I'm reverting to what the references state. --HighKing (talk) 08:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I have provided several references but Bardcom objects to them all. I believe they are fine. I have looked at other similar references in Wikipedia and there is nothing to suggest mine are of an inferior quality. My references back up the statement, so it should be left alone. I have studied this subject, and British Isles is the correct description. FootballPhil (talk) 10:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The references for BI are fine. It stays. TharkunColl (talk) 10:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

@Foor=tballPhil, I've pointed you at the policies in question - it is not me that objects, it's that I believe the references do not meet policy. Can you list the references you believe apply below here. @Tharky, can you comment on the references provided based on whether they meet policy and are acceptable, or not. Finally, what is the problem with the "more authoritive" refererences that I've provided?

Furry Dance Custom reference --HighKing (talk) 13:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

You have reverted this article again, I see. Could I ask you, are you an expert on the subject of Myth and Folklore? This reference is, I believe, entirely suitable to make the point about these customs relating to the British Isles as a whole: http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Flora_Day.htm

They do relate to the British Isles, including this one. I have not involved myself to a great extent in the editing of this article so far, but now I feel I have no alternative but to revert your change. FootballPhil (talk) 11:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi FootballPhil. Your reference relates to a "Soskernow Friends of Cornwall" website. There is no indication of who these people are, or what their official capacity is. The indications are that it is not an official or authoritive group at all, based on their website being hosted (for free) at tesco.net and the fact that the "Guest Book" link is broken and they show ads.

I've pointed you to policy regarding Reliable Sources WP:RS. Basically it says: Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. In this case, the source is not credible, it does not have a reliable publication process, and the authors are anonymous.

That's the policy, and I believe the reference you've provided cannot be accepted as it fails to meet any of the criteria. I know you may not have been aware of this policy, and perhaps after reading you still believed the reference to be good. If this is the case, can you help me understand why you believe that this reference is good? I'll hold off editing for a short while to give you a chance to respond. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 12:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• 'Triffic - a dispute by two or more individuals who are unfamiliar with the area and the antiquity of parts of its culture, arguing around references provided by other strangers... This is an excellent website, which fails Wikipedia's reference guide for various reasons, even though it is written by an nth generation Helstonian from the papers left by his father who was an amateur historian. Oh, don't mind me in your precious squabble - I just happen to work in one of the business' that is shown on one of the pages (and I took part in the celebration of the 800th anniversery of the granting of the Towns charter an few years back - but, hey...) LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you could comment on the quality of this reference: http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Flora_Day.htm I think it's a good reference, but User:HighKing doesn't. FootballPhil (talk) 19:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi FootballPhil, I recently came across Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard - it's a noticeboard to ask about references. They might be able to help us resolve this. Previously I'd posted this query Wikipedia:No original research/noticeboard#Furry Dance but have yet to receive a reply. Perhaps if you post you'll have more luck. --HighKing (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the following (unsubstantiated) sentence: "However the modern variant of the dance holds few similarities with the proposed original, having been revived long after the event had died out." and included a reference from 1790. The description of events described there is closely similar to the modern-day custom. Arcencielltd (talk)

I have a picture to add to this page

But I don't know how to. I'm about to sell a postcard on ebay. I have made a good photographic copy of it. It depicts the Flora day Furry dance on 10th May 1905. contact me on astro_nomenoff@yahoo.com and I will email a copy for someone to place on this article is they wish. I am not a wikimedian and don't know how to do such a thing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astro nomenoff (talk • contribs) 09:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Sir William Treloar

"During his period of office as Lord Mayor he made a ceremonial visit to Cornwall, the county from which his ancestors came. He was at Helston for the 1907 Furry Dance and had the honour of leading the full dress dance at noon on May 8."--As a single event this may not be worth including in the article; it has been added to Treloar's article.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 04:13, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Floral dance redirect

Why does Floral Dance redirect here if it's incorrect? Surely the song The Floral Dance is more widely known than this local ritual.Gymnophoria (talk) 01:13, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

A reasonable question. I don't see any problem with shifting the redirect as long as both pages keep prominent links to each other. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:49, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Furry Dance is the what the Cornish call the Floral Dance and it is held in Cornwall so I think the redirect is the best. Redirection is for just this purpose.Jembana (talk) 22:14, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It would be closer to say that Floral Dance is what the English call The Flora, or Furry Dance. But I think everyone agrees that redirects should be used; the question is precisely what should redirect to what. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

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Etymology

Before Helston was a port, in Roman Times according to an 1825 document, the name 'Halanguim' was assimulated to the original name of Helston, before 'Henlys' or 'Henlis' (as it was known, also before the inland harbour was built). That would have meant 'stream of the hollow'. However, in the early days of the 'Hal-an-Tow' it may have started near the Cober surrounded by sea sand (after 1014 when the flint sand was washed from the drowned Channel terraces across Mounts Bay in the 28th September tsunami. That is the only other remotely possible origin of the name : stream of the sand = 'tewas'. Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) Andrew H. Gray 11:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC)