Talk:Gérard Solvès

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Wilbysuffolk Talk to me 17:51, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

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• Gerard Solves → Gérard Solvès
• Aldin Setkic → Aldin Šetkić
• Gyorgy Balazs → György Balázs
• Andrej Kracman → Andrej Kračman
• Filip Horansky → Filip Horanský
• Josef Cihak → Josef Čihák
• Tomislav Brkic → Tomislav Brkić
• Denes Lukacs → Dénes Lukács (tennis)
• Martin Strelba → Martin Střelba
• Diego Alvarez (tennis) → Diego Álvarez (tennis)
• German Lopez → Germán López
• Juan Carlos Baguena → Juan Carlos Báguena
• Roberto Arguello → Roberto Argüello
• Alejandro Ganzábal → Alejandro Ganzábal
• Manuel Sanchez (tennis) → Manuel Sánchez (tennis)

– (i) per BLP accuracy, (ii) per sources that are reliable for purpose (i.e. sources that give reliable spelling of the first names and surnames involved), (iii) per lede already of articles and (iv) sources already in articles. (v) WP:CONSISTENCY with rest of category:French male tennis players etc. in each case, (vi) WP:CONSISTENCY with non-tennis BLPs with the same first names and surnames, (vii) WP:MOSPN, (viii) WP:UE examples. I realise these RMs are annoying, but the decision not to have a guideline and do RMs wasn't mine. FWIW this covers the last of the tennis BLPs, except the Spanish ones where the ITF online registration system has caused the hyphenating of Spanish maternal names on sports websites - this will require someone with more expertise in Spanish maternal names to clean up. Redirects to new titles, except in the case of Denes Lukacs to redirect to Dénes Lukács hndis. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:22, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support. The subjects are from and almost exclusively notable for actions in or on behalf of countries that use the diacritics in question. Encyclopedias such as Wikipedia typically don't "translate" names of living or modern people and don't need to drop diacritics as some less accurate sources do. —  AjaxSmack  04:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - Holy crap...more of this? I think In ictu oculi is systematically removing all traces of English from this wikipedia with his page moves. The moves seem to be endless. It looks like every language wikipedia he goes to he makes page moves by the bushel, creating all sorts of chaos. These players all register with the ITF with a non-diacritic name of their choosing. That name is used in all ITF tournaments forever as far as I know. Almost all English sources spell the player's names using the English alphabet also. The players foreign name is shown on the page so all readers can see it yet we have these endless page moves. The more moves that make it through, the more moves he makes. This time we have 15 at once. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Hello Fyunck. Actually hopefully no more of this... this is it. The non-tennis 99.99% of WP is already at BLP real names. As I said these are effectively the last ones, then the neverending Tennis names saga on WP is over and all Latin alphabet BLPs are at correct spelling WP:CONSISTENCY with Beyoncé Knowles; except for the 30x Czech and Slovak ice-hockey BLPs which Vejvančický moved to correct spellings last year but Dolovis reverted (my own attention hadn't been invited back then). As far as "sources" go, there's one excellent reliable source that verifies the names, and that is the Eastern Europe diacritics REDIRECTs you yourself accurately created in order to direct away from the accurate spelling to the anglicized version. We only need follow them... :) Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

We've discussed this before; the ITF imposes technical restrictions which prevents players submitting their name accurately if their name has diacritics. The encyclopædia does not have this limitation and should not imitate the ITF's errors. bobrayner (talk) 07:41, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter why the ITF chooses to use the English alphabet and always has. What matters is they choose to do so and players must register with them. Add to that the ATP and WTA sources, the English press sources, sometimes the Encyclopedia Britannica sources and we have overwhelming usage in common English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:29, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

And the move request for Denes Lukacs → Dénes Lukács (tennis) is borderline abuse of rules. It JUST CLOSED March 21st with no consensus. And now it's here again. This is abusing the system imo. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:20, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support; move to more accurate names. bobrayner (talk) 07:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support Gérard Solvès is the captain of TCP and thus notable for that as well, his related activities are mostly covered by French media (with French proper spelling). Roberto Argüello coached Jennifer Capriati and worked for the Japan Tennis Association so his career doesn't need to be framed by post ITF-software registration (he propably didn't register himself). Aldin Šetkić is spelled that way several instances in the official site of the ATP tournament Sarajevo Open ([1], [2]), Manuel Sánchez is listed with diacritics on the official site of the ATP tournament Jalisco Open ([3]), and these are just a few examples why Wikipedia shouldn't ignore diacritics when it comes to tennis players. Lajbi ^{Holla @ me • CP} 10:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support as this is an encyclopedia. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:00, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nom. I don't think any of these diacritic-less forms can be considered English names. mgeo talk 21:34, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
• 3O request note: A request for a Third opinion was made at the Third Opinion Project about the frequency of similar move requests. This is just a quick note to let you know that the request has been removed for lack of discussion about that particular question. 3O, like most dispute resolution processes, requires substantive talk page discussion about an issue before it is brought to dispute resolution. If the requesting editor wishes to merely lodge a complaint about that question, I would suggest that it be done at WP:WQA, WP:AN, or WP:ANI, as it is really more of a conduct issue than a content issue. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support Deliberatly using wrong spellings is not something we want to do in BLP - or anything we want others to consider as an encyclopedic example of out work. Agathoclea (talk) 20:06, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose for the reasons already stated on the BLP talk page and equally strongly object to In ictu oculi's handling of this entire diacritics issue which shows all the signs of a holy crusade and not acting in good faith. To try in push this through for several articles via this talk page is a good example of how not to handle this in a constructive way.--Wolbo (talk) 21:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I feel a bit like Samuel's ghost having been summoned. If some tennis editors hadn't been misbehaving (towards fellow East European tennis editors not least), I would not have been moved to take an interest. The annoyance of many editors with this subject (including myself) would be a reason for pushing through the last 15 tennis BLPs rather than 15 weeks more of 1 a week. In the meantime by stripping diacritics from sourced BLPs in ice-hockey you're just making nuisance. Not least since stripping of diacritics on those BLPs also goes against "language in which this entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, ..)". In ictu oculi (talk) 01:41, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support, same reasons as the previous instances. No need for an encyclopedia to anglicize names. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 07:32, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's "Denes Lukacs" in English, "Lukács Dénes" in Hungarian. "Dénes Lukács" is not given by any source in any language. Let's not create a synthetic Euro-Wiki tennis dialect. We decided not to do this just one month ago. After all, this subject is most notable for playing for Baylor University in Texas.[4][5] Gyorgy Balazs is also a Hungarian name, so it has the same problem. I must object to this procedure of throwing French, Spanish, Bosnian, Hungarian, and Czech players together. French and Spanish diacritics are used by various English-language publications, so they are more likely to be familiar to the reader than Hungarian or Czech diacritics. Kauffner (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Kauffner, is what you have just said correct? What is Chicago MOS for Hungarian names? Because if you are right than WP:MOS guidance on Paul Erdős is wrong every single Hungarian bio on WP is counter Chicago MOS?

Secondly can you please do a search (1) on given name Dénes (2) surname Lukács in Google Scholar? What are the results? Are Hungarian scientists and artists etc. with (1) given name Dénes and (2) surname Lukács represented with accents in academic sources? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is CMOS: "For the names of well-known deceased persons, Chicago generally prefers the spellings of Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary or the biographical section of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary....For living persons, consult Who's Who or Who's Who in America, among other sources." (§8.3) Merriam-Webster gives "Paul Erdos." Kauffner (talk) 00:55, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that answer. So the name Dénes Lukács, like almost Hungarian bios on WP per WP:MOS "consistent with the titles of related articles", is 100% correct according the University of Chicago and Merriam-Webster. Further it is fully supported by WP:IRS per given name Dénes and surname Lukács in Google Scholar. What source contradicts University of Chicago, WP:MOS lede, Google Scholar WP:IRS, to argue for anglicization of this particular Hungarian citizen? However if you really object to the Hungarian and have no problem with the French, Spanish, Bosnian, and Czech players we could exclude the Hungarian if it will make a difference to increasing consensus? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:30, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry scratch that idea, I forgot that there are two Hungarians mentioned - György Balázs. Both of whom appear on Hungary Davis Cup team, along with Ádám Kellner, Attila Balázs, Márton Fucsovics, Kornél Bardóczky. This makes it not just an issue of WP:MOS "consistent with the titles of related articles" to Dénes Lukács (colonel) and Dénes Lukács (psychologist), but also consistent to all the other Hungary Davis Cup team. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support all. The names without diacritics are merely spellings of convenience, not encyclopedic ones, which require greater accuracy. Doremo (talk) 07:21, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support per AjaxSmack and others. We need more accuracy in Wikipedia. - Darwinek (talk) 10:32, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support all but the non-accented redirects should be retained for the benefit of the many WP editors and users who find it hard to type letters with diacriticals. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:05, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose all, as this is the English language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 19:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support per accuracy. There can be a redirect in place for those who don't know diacritics. -DJSasso (talk) 19:18, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support. We should use sources that are reliable on orthographic matters and thus relevant to the encyclopedic style. Prolog (talk) 18:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Diacritics should normally be retained in personal names in the Latin alphabet, barring evidence that the person has actually anglicized their name (e.g. 1, 2). This is not really a WP:UE issue, since it's by no means unheard of for English-speakers to use diacritics in their name (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4). Jafeluv (talk) 11:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support (move all) for reason of encyclopaedic accuracy. Wikipedia's mission is to educate, and not to pander to the lowest common denominator. And given the fact that European English is moving quickly towards adopting diacritics of most Romanised script. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 15:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
• Firm support. Personal names should be rendered accurately given that Wikipedia has the technical ability to do so. Support all arguments immediately above. For the person who says "Oppose as this is the English language Wikipedia", yes it is. People's own names do not vary by language, if they did every Iván would be listed as John and every Diego would be James. Sussexonian (talk) 20:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose all. At this stage of the discussion regarding diacritics, these should be discussed individually. The appeal to accuracy and similar arguments represent a significant shift in policy if upheld. Andrewa (talk) 16:36, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Andrew welcome to a new face, but with respect the accuracy guideline in WP:Article Titles "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." was added August 2011 with consensus. For better or worse, since the accuracy guideline has been in the guideline for 10 months and had consensus, therefore the place to dispute it would seem to be there. With several 1,000 tennis BLPs, with only a handful having a place in Britannica like Dominik Hašek and all having the "English sports sources" and "tennis names" problem, what exactly at this stage should prevent these last 16 living people bios (why these 16?) from being listed according to diacritic-reliable sources rather than sports websites. To prevent them being moved according to diacritic-reliable sources in the article footnotes acheives nothing other than keeping the door ajar to further "tennis names" disruption. And the suggestion to do them 1-at-a-time is the opposite of what what most Users and Admins have been saying for the past month. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:03, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I have actually been part of that discussion from time to time, and I fear it is ongoing. I'm not convinced that the August 2011 revision clarifies this particular issue at all, although it is progress in many ways. Note particularly that word often. Agree that it's faster to propose these ones together, and being myself one of the admins who focus on the RM backlog that is dear to my heart. But in terms of current policy and guidelines I see no justification for an approval of all on the evidence common to all. Perhaps that may motivate (sigh) still more discussion on further updates to the policy. Andrewa (talk) 21:10, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi again Andrew, well yes "often" isn't always, but it certainly is "often" as evidenced by the 1000s of BLPs which are at most accurate rather than most common names. Which 1 or more of this 15 stands out as having any case for anglicization? None of them is primarily notable in America/Britain which would justify the idea that they have an "English name." In ictu oculi (talk) 22:06, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I think this question attempts to shift the onus of proof to the oppose side. It's actually the support side who need to make a case. Andrewa (talk) 23:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, the proof assumes that users will spot-check among the 15 to ensure that the case as presented is correct: (i) per WP:BLP "accuracy," (ii) per sources that are reliable for purpose (i.e. sources that give reliable spelling of the first names and surnames involved), even when reliable-in-other-matters sources are in the majority (iii) per lede already of articles and (iv) sources already in articles. (v) "consistent with related articles" with rest of category:French male tennis players etc. in each case, (vi) "consistent with related articles" with non-tennis BLPs with the same first names and surnames, (vii) WP:MOSPN, (viii) WP:UE examples. These guidelines (i)-(viii) apply to all 15x articles. So far the only case against is that some English sports websites don't use diacritics. I'm asking if any of the 15x don't pass any of the (i)-(viii) guidelines. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:01, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I think this means that you still want to shift the onus of proof to the oppose side, but have still given no reason that this should be allowed. Andrewa (talk) 09:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Not sure I understand your point. If this was just 1 name, then those (i)-(viii) guidelines would apply, that's the rationale for the move, the proof is offered - it now has to be disputed, and it hasn't been. In this case going down the 15x one by one each one of those points would still apply. In each case it's the same basic problem, use of a sports website to establish a name rather than reliable sources. In each case the "consistent with other article titles" is evident whether it's a Slovenian or a French, Střelba or Balázs. What is significantly different about any of these to justify having this page duplicated 15x? The thought makes me shudder frankly. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:53, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support as above – there is no valid reason not to include diacritics here. Jared Preston (talk) 07:05, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Moving articles should not be done in package deals. Checking English-language usage on a case-by-case basis is an important step in deciding article titles. English-language usage for one of the names in this list should not decide the article title for the other 14. MakeSense64 (talk) 15:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Makesense64, as before these last 15x are supported by all the arguments (i)-(vii) as given. If you believe that any argument (i)-(viii) is not supported then feel free to make the case. Otherwise to request this needs doing 15x is shudder-making. The majority are clearly against your WP:TENNISNAMES proposal. I remind you that 90 of 100 who 'voted' on various diacritics RMs in the 30 period 2 weeks-6 weeks ago were for accurate spelling and against relying on sports websites. You can count yourself if you don't believe me. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.