Talk:Ganges

Lead sentence

Adjacent and nested sets of brackets are quite clunky and usually avoided on the encyclopedia. I suggest:

The Ganges (/ˈɡændʒiːz/ GAN-jeez), also known in India as the Ganga (/ˈɡʌŋɡɑː/ GUNG-ah) and in Bangladesh as the Padma (/ˈpʌdmə/ PUD-mə), is a trans-boundary river of Asia which flows through India and Bangladesh.

This is certainly within bounds for the prolixity of the lead sentence, but wouldn't mind condensing the wording slightly. The local names could be kept within one set of brackets, but then we probably shouldn't have nested sets for the IPA and respelling. Alternatively, could we perhaps safely omit those pronunciations, since they're fairly intuitive to unfamiliar readers? — RAVENPVFF · talk · 10:02, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

It is not just the prolixity, which we can argue about, but due weight. By freeing the local usage from its parenthesis, we give it prominence in the lead sentence. The usage is really incidental to a distilled encyclopedic summary of the river.

Also, without the parenthesis, "India" and "Bangladesh" become mildly repetitive, leading a reader to wonder, "Yeah, we already know it flows through India and Bangladesh."

There is a third issue. Indians use "Ganga" for the river along its whole course; that is, in the lower Ganges valley, they continue to use it both for main river which flows through Bangladesh and an artificial channel which diverts half the rivers water into Indian West Bengal. Bangladeshis use it only for their stretch of the river; Bangladeshi English-languages sources prefer Ganges to Ganga for the whole river. I fear your edit might become more grist for the India-POV mill for changing the page name to "Ganga."

We had considered all these issues, when we wrote the lead sentence. The one change that I think should be made is to flip the four citations: bring the last two (the British government and Library of Congress usage, which is tertiary) forward; the other two are secondary sources, and don't address due weight. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:48, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I take back that last proposal. Probably best to let those four sleeping dogs lie. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Point taken. Would you still consent to combining the brackets, like so?

The Ganges (/ˈɡændʒiːz/ GAN-jeez; in India: Ganga, /ˈɡʌŋɡɑː/ GUNG-ah; in Bangladesh: Padma, /ˈpʌdmə/ PUD-mə) is a trans-boundary river of Asia which flows through India and Bangladesh.

The only change here is cleaner punctuation; the words are exactly the same. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 15:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, @Ravenpuff: did not see your post. Yes, your proposed edit is fine. Thank you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:45, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Lead sentence (2)

special:diff/1174837358 — for some reason a certain someone thinks that it's a good idea to avoid participating in discussions and blindly revert anything they don't like. Summer ^talk 16:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

See the section above. The same issue had arisen there. The problem is that in India the whole river, from headwaters to mouth, is called Ganga. In Bangladesh, only the segment of the main stem flowing through it is called Padma. In English-language sources in BD, the preferred name for the whole river is "Ganges." In other words, "the local name along the course of the river changes from Ganga to Padma at the border. Thus, when we say, "in India: Ganga; in BD, Padma," we mean "locally: in India, Ganga; in BD Padma." or "locally, "Ganga," in India; "Padma," in BD" No more description is required. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:06, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Change the word Ganges with Ganga.

Why is the Ganga river referred to as the Ganges in this article? The world doesn't revolve around the British. The original name is Ganga and should be referred to as Ganga only. It's an Indian river, so there's no need to name it as the Ganges just because some British mispronounced it. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 19:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@TheDarkKnight433, please see the first discussion on this page and the many discussions about this in the archives which you can access from the archive box at the top of the page. There was a move discussion about exactly this just a few months ago at Talk:Ganges/Archive_7 that you should read first for some background on why this article is at Ganges. Ravensfire (talk) 19:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, after reading the entire discussion, it's evident that many people were in favor of changing the name of the river to its original name, which is "Ganga". "Ganges" isn't even an English word; Britishers who resided here weren't able to pronounce its actual name, so they called it Ganges. This river originates from India, and the word "Ganga" predates the English language itself. No one refers to it as the Ganges here in India. Therefore, I propose to reopen this discussion. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 19:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@TheDarkKnight33:, you write: No one refers to it as the Ganges here in India. Please see [1] RegentsPark (comment) 22:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Giving an example of a hotel? What if it's owned by some other nationals? I will give you more relevant source. How about from Government of India? TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 23:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@TheDarkKnight433:. Not one hotel, many hotels, and clearly not owned by "other nationals". But, since you bring up government sites, take a look at this one from the Uttar Pradesh ministry. Unfortunately, your "no one refers to the Ganges here in India" is just plain incorrect.RegentsPark (comment) 12:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

As extensively discussed a few months ago, WP:COMMONNAME has the article using Ganges. I'm quite sure you're able to find source that use your preferred name - please note all of that was included in the discussion. Ravensfire (talk) 00:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what some people use. The ORIGINAL and official name is GANGA and you have to use that only. Indian places/geography should be written using original Indian names. Not what COLONIALISTS misspelled. 2409:408C:9113:F136:0:0:10BC:50A1 (talk) 10:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia, which uses the COMMONNAME in English, so it is recognized by our readers, world-wide. We do not "have to use" the official name as is explained at Official name. As explained above, this matter has been extensively discussed, and the consensus was to keep with Ganges. Please do not edit contrary to consensus. Thank you - Arjayay (talk) 12:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong. WP:COMMONNAME only takes "English published news sources" for consideration. Is that so? Because in web search trend, use of Ganga clearly surpasses Ganges by a margin of 50-100 times (times, not percent) — which is what COMMON people use. Waonderer (talk) 05:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I would be careful when using google trends. Ganga is also a fairly common name of a person. Ganges is not. RegentsPark (comment) 16:10, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention a popular recreational drug .... Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The Google Ngram is a better tool, though I'm not sure how to filter out results for the Goddess, people's names, misspellings of "ganja", etc. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 07:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The Name should be changed to Ganga - which is the original and correct name. What is Ganges? It's a Colonial Racist name! 68.116.189.102 (talk) 00:52, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

To repeat, this is the English Wikipedia, which uses the COMMONNAME in English, so it is recognized by our readers, world-wide. Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Adding hindi name of Ganga next to the word The Ganges.

According to Wikipedia's guideline WP:NOINDICSCRIPT , for Hinduism-related articles, the use of Indic languages is permitted. Therefore, for topics such as the The Ganges, which is related to Hinduism, the use of Indic languages is acceptable. So, I propose to add this information.

TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 01:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

No. This is an article about a geographical feature, a river. Articles 'related to Hinduism' are directly about religion. MrOllie (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You are just arguing without facts and sources. If you have source to claim your statement then attach it.

https://www.britannica.com/question/Why-is-the-Ganges-River-considered-holy-in-Hinduism

This source clearly mentions that it's directly related to Hinduism. So, there is no point of further discussion. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 01:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You have to actually convince people to support your changes somehow, and simply declaring that discussion is at an end will not do so. MrOllie (talk) 01:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You tell what else do you need to get convinced. Isn't this enough? You were saying its not related to Hinduism and I proved it, that it is. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 02:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The article would have to be directly about Hinduism to qualify for the exception. A tenuous relationship is not sufficient. MrOllie (talk) 02:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It is directly related. I literally attached a source to prove this claim. If you don't have knowledge about this topic, please refrain yourself from such topics. Thank you! TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 02:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ipse dixit. Also, making personal attacks about other people's level of knowledge will not cause others to support your proposals. MrOllie (talk) 02:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree that saying this article is "about Hinudism" would be too much of a stretch. I wasn't around when the original decision was handed down, but it looks like there was a sort of knock-down fight about this issue that ended with a quite blanket avoidance of adding Indic scripts. To change that, you'd need to re-open the issue generally and not make weak arguments that one or another article which can be related to Hinduism, but not all that directly, is somehow not subject to the policy. Please drop this quest. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Adding Indic language next to "The Ganges" would be incredibly helpful and beneficial for millions of people in India. The source also emphasizes the river's immense significance in Hinduism. I fail to grasp why the addition of just two words, which could benefit so many people, is being contested. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 10:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jmcgnh:, That's basically my thought on this as well. An article that would be fall into the exception would be one that is primarily focused on Hinduism. It's not intended to be a broad exception, and this would be pushing it to way beyond where it was intended.

And the OP has been blocked as a sock, so fairly moot discussion. Ravensfire (talk) 00:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Update: include new studies on earthquakes and tectonic activity

Under the Geology section, after "The Indo-Gangetic Plain is geologically known as a foredeep or foreland basin.[36]" I suggest to add "The basin is tectonically active and has the potential to generate large earthquakes". The reference for this statement is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo2760

Under the Hydrology section, before "Before the late 12th century the Bhagirathi-Hooghly distributary was the main channel of the Ganges and the Padma was only a minor spill-channel", I propose to add. "A large, M 7-8 earthquake at 500 BCE caused the Ganges River to abruptly abandon its former course in the central delta". The reference for this statement is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-47786-4 80.61.14.71 (talk) 07:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)