Talk:Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 11:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that anyone can be a student in room 402? Source: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=aEyKTaVlRPYC&dat=19990418&printsec=frontpage (go to page 28)
  • ALT1: ... that in Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402, students in a classroom are described using rhyming verses? Source: https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/betty-paraskevas/gracie-graves-and-the-kids-from-room-402/
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Hasta Que Me Olvides

Created by Sebbirrrr (talk). Self-nominated at 22:09, 5 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Sebbirrrr: thanks for this article - it is well-written, well-sourced and well-structured. QPQ also done. So all in shape, except the hooks above - ALT0 source link doesn't point to a clear explanation, and ALT1 is not interesting. If you can provide a quote from the source for ALT0, then I like the hookiness of it. Otherwise an ALT2 could point out that the book was described as having captured "grade-school grotesquerie". Onceinawhile (talk) 07:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Thanks for the review. The given source mentions the last poem "Which one is me and which is you?" and says that the kids from room 402 are as familiar as the face in the mirror, although I guess I should have added the Language Arts source as well as it clearly says that it is hard not to respond to the author's invitation to choose the student that is most like you. Let me know if this is alright for ALT0. Regards, Sebbirrrr (talk) 13:29, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sebbirrrr: thank you. Please could you add this additional citation and clearer explanation to the “Content” section of the article? Then I will approve ALT0. Thank you Onceinawhile (talk) 18:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Apologies, but I was not sure which citation you were referring to. I added the quote from the last poem and added a bit more detail about it since the quote from Language Arts was already included in the Reception section. Please tell me if I added the correct citation. Regards, Sebbirrrr (talk) 20:06, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Sebirrrr, good to go! Onceinawhile (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile and Sebbirrrr: I am unable to make a connection between the hook and our article. Bruxton (talk) 19:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton: Hello. The hook refers to the last poem in the book that states: "Which one is me and which is you?". If the hook is too vague, I guess it can be tweaked to include that the readers are invited to pick the student they best identify with. Regards, Sebbirrrr (talk) 20:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

IMO We need to workshop another hook. Bruxton (talk) 20:56, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

See my suggestion for an ALT2 above. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:00, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton: Using Onceinawhile's suggestion, would the following hook work? ALT2: ... that a reviewer thought that Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402 depicted "grade-school grotesquerie"? Sebbirrrr (talk) 21:14, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure. We may need some help from @Cielquiparle:. Can you help us fashion a hook? My mind is blank at the moment. Bruxton (talk) 15:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The problem with ALT2 is that in the review, "grade-school grotesquerie" is technically used to describe the domain of the co-authors' expertise rather than the book topic itself. (Picky, I know.) Some ideas for ALT hooks (which could be candidates for the "quirky" slot:

• ALT3: ... that reading Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402 has been compared to perusing "a kooky stranger's yearbook"?
• ALT4: ... that one of the 28 children depicted in Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402 vomits after eating 16 Twinkies?

Source for both hook is the Publishers Weekly review which is cited within the article. Cielquiparle (talk) 03:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is another one:

• ALT5: ... that Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402 includes a rhyme about "twins of unequal intellect"?

Source for that is the School Library Journal review, cited within the article. Cielquiparle (talk) 08:29, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for proposing alternate hooks. I haven't considered writing one about the children in the class. I don't mind either ALT4 or ALT5, but we'll see what @Bruxton: thinks. Sebbirrrr (talk) 08:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, ALT4 would not be suitable as guidelines require hooks to have a real-world connection and not be based on plot, which ALT4 seems to be. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I buy that as "depicted in" makes it clear that it is describing a plot, rather than describing something in-universe. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

From what I understand about the criterion, that kind of hook is still violating the spirit of the criterion. If the hook describes something as plot, that's still not enough to count as a real-world link. I think there was a discussion on WT:DYK a few months ago regarding that: maybe Theleekycauldron knows. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:DYKFICTION should have the answer you're looking for here :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 18:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron: No, it's super unclear. What does it mean? Cielquiparle (talk) 03:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I do think the idea ALT3 is an acceptable hook, though it may require attribution. Also maybe a different wording since not everyone might know what "peruse" means. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I think readers can guess what "perusing" means from context. Cielquiparle (talk) 03:32, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that's fine. DYKFICTION states that hooks need to be substantially connected the real world, not just a plot hook that is "technically out-of-universe because we acknowledge that it's plot". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 03:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Restoring hook due to edit conflict:

• ALT6: ... that Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402 was criticized for conveying "a sort of smug superiority of adults"?

Source is the School Library Journal review cited in the article. Cielquiparle (talk) 03:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Requires a new reviewer to approve the hooks. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:10, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, I just wanted a reviewer to look at ALT6. @Narutolovehinata5 and Theleekycauldron: Does that one work? Cielquiparle (talk) 04:37, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with either ALT3 or ALT6. I have no access to ALT6's sources so AGF, though I should note that the footnote that supports it isn't in the sentence that mentions the "smug superiority" fact but rather the following sentence. That needs to be addressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:48, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Note: Any editor with Wikipedia Library access should be able to access EBSCOHost sources by logging on to Wikipedia Library first, then clicking on the link. To register for an account, visit Wikipedia LibraryCielquiparle (talk) 02:51, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: I have resolved the footnote issue in the article (and deleted the second sentence which had become repetitive anyway). For reference, here is the quote from School Library Journal: "These 29 visual and verbal caricatures in verse convey a sort of smug superiority of adults ridiculing the foibles and weaknesses of youth rather than genuine childlike humor. For the most part, the book lacks any warmth or caring about others and ultimately reinforces low self-esteem in children. Unfortunately, the most appealing of these often-strained verses glorify the worst behavior." Cielquiparle (talk) 03:05, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

• New reviewer still needed to check the hooks and approve one or more if appropriate. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• ALT6 approved. ALT3 doesn't seem as clearly supported by the text, but I will differ with the criticism of "peruse". It's a perfectly reasonable English word that should be in most peoples' vocabulary. I even see it used a couple of times in simplewiki. RoySmith (talk) 16:43, 18 October 2023 (UTC)