Talk:Great Dane/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Looking for a link.

There was a link to a Dane content site that was removed, all-about-great-danes.com, is there a specific reason for its deletion? The link was up for months and the site has tons of breed info.

Thanks

Yes, wikipedia is not a web directory. - Trysha ^(talk) 01:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

kyddoggen.de vs. doggen.de

It looks to me like www.kyddoggen.de is a breeder's private site while www.doggen.de is a breed society. In that case, we should link to the latter rather than the former. Could someone whose German is better than mine confirm this? Barnabypage 12:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

If both sites are in german, why are they linked to in the *english* wikipedia? I'd say remove the links, it feels like an attempt at link advertising. Roadmr (t|c) 23:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I suppose with the breed being of German origin there's some case for linking to the German breed society, but for now I'll remove the link. Barnabypage 13:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Country of origin

Umm, how can its origin be a given country "at certain times"?

The breed's origin has been attributed to both Germany and Denmark at different historical moments. Since it's an ongoing debate I feel it's adequate to point out that fact in the article, rather than arbitrarily taking a side. Roadmr (t|c) 17:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"German Dog"

Hello!

The name in Germany is Deutsche Dogge. That's right. But it doesn't mean "German Dog" - Dogge means mastiff. It changed it a few weeks ago but someone changed it again. Why? This translation isn't right.

Bye —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.175.110.204 (talk) 07:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I don't speak german, however I used a dictionary located here and indeed dogge is translated as mastiff, and never as dog. The page has been corrected. Roadmr (t|c) 14:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Other German misconceptions

Hello, native German speaker here.

I've just had a quick look through the discussion page, and also made a minor edit to the article itself. Firstly, it's "Dänischer Hund", not "Dänisches Hund". Secondly, I have to point out a flaw in the lengthy contribution above, citing historical sources mentioning "wolf-like" dogs called "Rüden". The German word "Rüde" simply means "Stud", as in a male dog, OR a male fox or wolf. Nothing large and wolf-like about it necessarily. A male poodle is just as much of a "Rüde" as a male Great Dane.

Longish, Irrelevant and Inaccurate Section for trimming/deleting

In response to reversion of 11 February 2008 by Roadmr : “(Undid revision 190512539 by DavidOaks (talk) Deleting unsourced info without a source is just as bad.)”

Actually, no – per Wikipolicy: The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. -- WP:V#Burden of evidence

However, in the interests of good documentation and collegial, cooperative editing:

”Dene” in the poem "Beowulf", today’s Danes.

While OE “dene” is cognate with MnE “Dane,” by no means does it map onto either the political division or ethnic group meant by “today’s Danes.” It covers the people we would call Swedes, Norse, some Germans and English: "The Old English word Dene ‘Danes’ usually refers to Scandinavians of any kind; most of the invaders were indeed Danish (East Norse speakers), but there were Norwegians (West Norse [speakers]) among them as well." —Lass, Roger, Old English: A Historical Linguistic Companion, p.187, n.12. Cambridge University Press, 1994.

In Old Norse (ON) and Old English (OE) the male is always referred to as ”Hund” (in etymology from ”the Hunt/Hunter”)

No such specification in Clark Hall and Merritt’s dictionary (sorry, don’t have Bosworth-Toller to hand) of Anglo Saxon, nor in the glossary to Klaeber’s edn of Beowulf; the word is grammatically masculine, but that has no relevance to biological gender. "Hunt" is unconnected with the Gmc word for dog, where the initial consonant may develop from an original palatal stop (cp Gk kyn-) into a glottal fricative (hund) or remain unchanged (Gmc cyn-). OED sv hound, hunt, canine.

Thus in Norse and Old English literature, specifically the compilation of sagas known as Elder Edda (Poetic Edda), the hound is named in variations over these words, for example ”hvndar” and ”greyiom”

The cpd “grighund” occurs in OE, but is rare, and clearly an adj+noun compound; no gr+vowel+palatal word is listed as a synonym for dog in Clark Hall and Merritt.

The most treasured hound, as is the case with the horse, is the white colored with black markings. Today we know this hound as ”Harlequin/Harlekin” (English/ Danish). However the origin is ”Herla Cyning” (OE) or ”King of the Army”. The word evolves because the human king is titled Hariwalda (ON/OE), in the new kingdoms in Britannia evolving to ”Bretwalda” or ”ruler of the army/Britannia”. His personal hounds in white are rulers of all dogs.

The OED derives the word from a term for a devil, “hennequin;” other possibilities are mentioned, but not this one. "Herewalda" is credible, but unattested in Hall-Merritt, and at most would be a kenning, rather than a title, difficult to connect except as an alternative kenning with "Bretwalda," which does not occur before the 9th c., much too late to be part of the pangermanic wordhoard.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretwalda]

Two large hounds can be seen on “The Royal Purse Lid” (The British Museum) as guiding spirits to the king buried in Sutton Hoo, East Anglia, presumably (H)Rædwald in the 7th Century ACE.

The purse lid certainly contains animals – some definitely birds, others thought to be horses, "doglike creatures" or simply “mythical beasts” [1] -- none definitely dogs. And the “guiding spirit” speculation, well….

Having demonstrated the inaccuracy of the OE claims, I think the ON material should be viewed with skepticism, and quite apart from those concerns, the relevancy of the material to great dane is not apparent – is it here because the contributor is talking about dogs and danes at the same time? For example, conceding that the Sutton Hoo critters are indeed meant to be dogs, is there any reason to suppose they're of the breed we would call Great Danes? I propose deleting the entire distracting section. DavidOaks (talk) 18:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate the work you did here. I agree with your point re WP:V, however the policy also warns that "editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references." It also states that "If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page". I think the info in question should at least have been tagged for references and left that way for a while before resorting to outright deleting the section; and it seems more appropriate to have the removed information at least mirrored here in the talk page, the way you did this second time. Anyway, for the time being the issue seems to have been solved. Again, thanks for taking the time to document your edits. Roadmr (t|c) 23:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Page Protection

Since this page suffers numerous vandalisms and pointless edits (7 in as many days), I would like to have this page made semi-protected to prevent anonymous users from editing. Please post whether you agree or disagree.--Flash176 (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There seems to be some confusion and cross purposes going on. Hopefully that would clear it up a bit.

I'm entirely neutral on the content of the "history" section - I know nothing whatsoever about the breed - but I am doing my best to correct stuffy style and poor grammar where I see it. I just want to see a properly presented article on this lovely dog! GM Pink Elephant —Preceding comment was added at 21:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't appear this page was ever semi-protected and I don't see an edit history replete with vandalism so I have removed that template. I also removed the improvement template that was added over a year ago. This article appears to be well sourced now.

I haven't seen any vandalism but I have seen edit warring, I would encourage the editors of this page to work out differences, if the dog has an unclear or disputed origin then perhaps both countries should be listed or some other arrangement can be made to express both viewpoints. --Wgfinley (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Listing both countries is what has, indeed, been done, after a bout of edit warring last week. The current solution seems to be adequate. Roadmr (t|c) 14:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Questionable content

While reading the section on health, I noticed a paragraph which really doesn't seem to fit. It's based (apparently) entirely on one study with little/no support, and the tone is all wrong--very unprofessional. The paragraph was added 19:52, 26 September 2006 by user 71.52.121.51 according to the page's history. Since I'm relatively new to Wikipedia, I don't want to just jump in and delete it. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable and/or experienced could take a look? --H-ko 09:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the Purdue para and added a brief reference to the research in the main para on bloat. Could someone else add the reference to http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/clbr.htm, please? (I always seem to screw that up. ;) Barnabypage 15:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Took a while, but since someone asked for a citation on elevated dishes increasing bloat risk, I finally added the ref to the article.Roadmr (t|c) 18:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There are several mistakes in the health section. Many are not based on any facts.

The deaf/blind Great Dane that lacks pigment is only partially correct and is a result of Harlequin programs not found in the other colors. The double-merle gene(Whites)is specific to Harlequin-type breeding only.

In layman's terms: White Great Danes are more of genetic issue than health. White Great Danes are a product of doubling up on the Merle Gene. That happens when Great Danes that carry the merle gene are bred together. IE: Harlequin X Harlequin, Harlequin X Merle, Harle/Merl X White, White X White.

The Mantle color, used in a Harlequin program, does not carry for the Merl gene at all. Breeding Mantle to Harl or Merl elliminates any possibilty of Whites, as Mantles do not carry merle. In some countries, such as Germany, Harl X Harl, Harl X Merl, Merl X Merl, Harl X White, White X white, is not allowed because of the genetic Double Merling, or Whites.

Whites are not a possibilty when breeding any of the other excepted colors of the Great Dane unless someone intentionally introduces a Harl/Merle dog into the program. It should be noted that just because a Harl X Harl has been done, it does not mean all of the puppies will be White, or double-merles.

Bloat is an issue with some pedigrees and not so much with others. A tack surgery on a male Dane during neutering surgery is a lot of stress at one time. There is no sure preventative measure. Even dogs that have had the tack have still bloated. It has been suggested that poor kibble diets and the structure of the ligmants and muscles are to blame. There is no proof, no smoking gun with any theory to date.

Gibson, the tallest dog, is mentioned. What is not mentioned is the structure health of a dog that tall. Having a Great Dane that is that tall is fun for a time, but when they can't walk by two or three years old is heart breaking. Breeding for this is attribute is not advised. Gibson would show poorly in an AKC Conformation show.

The yeast infection issue leading to staph infections from poor diets. Not saying this is not a possiblity but this is someone's opinion. More likely the dog in question has an inherited auto-immune issue specifc to their pedigree. In my 35 years in this wonderful breed, I have never heard of such a thing. However, overall, a poor diet can certainly affect the health of Great Danes in many more ways than this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.18.237.77 (talk) 17:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

To add to list of GDs in popular culture

A GD (on roller skates) appear in the film The Truth About Cats & Dogs.

See http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll?p=avg&sql=A135982

This list needs to be thinned, not expanded. What use is a catalogue of every appearance of a given breed in every movie, novel, or cartoon ever made? I propose to strip it down to sort of iconic cases, well-known productions where the Dane-ness of the animal is a key feature. DavidOaks (talk) 16:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

What is an "unsound" dog?

Here's a sentence from the appearance section: "Breeding for height will sacrifice structure and conformation in the Great Dane and produce dogs that are unsound." What, exactly, is an unsound dog? To me, this suggests a dog that is physically falling apart -- his legs detach from the torso, and so on. Or does this sentence merely reflect a parochial bias in this article of people who keep dogs as spectacle-items for shows? Either way, this article is crying out for a rewrite. Any objections? --Plainsong (talk) 23:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Weight

There is no mention of standard weight of adult danes. I hate having to use google to learn. Any experts feel like adding a sentence? It is included in most other dog breed articles. ExtremeSquared (talk) 20:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Also please remove the references to Irish Wolfhounds (which appears TWICE) in the opening paragraph. They are unsourced, provide NO information relating to Great Danes, and seem like simple 'sour grapes' by Irish Wolfhound breeders irritated the records for 'tallest dog' belonging to Danes. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.153.248 (talk) 03:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I, too, am sick to death of the errors relating to Irish Wolfhounds. I, personally, have been involved with Great Danes since the 1970's, and I can't recall an instance when the tallest living dog was anything BUT a Great Dane. (It could have happened in the last 30+ years, but I'm not aware of it.) The tallest dog on record (according to Guinness) was a brindle Great Dane named Shamgret Danzas, who was 42.5" at the shoulder. (Gibson, the current record holder and also a Great Dane, was measured at 42.2". Apparently a deaf/blind Dane named "Titan" is now the new tallest living dog, at 42.25" tall.)

What apparently confuses so many Googlers are the M-I-N-I-M-U-M heights permitted in the breed standards for Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds. Most dog breeds have a maximum height range, whereas both Danes and IW's have only a minimum height. The minimum could've been anything, for both breeds. It just so happens that for IW's, the minimum allowed is 2" taller than Danes. The minimum allowable height has absolutely nothing to do with the "average" height of either breed. But as a Dane fancier who's met an awful lot of IW's over the years, I have to say that both breeds are, on average, about the same height in adulthood, with male Danes being a tad bit taller, on average. (Hence the reason the tallest dogs are pretty much always Great Danes.)

I don't believe there are any credible resources for either breed, in terms of average height of the entire population. But to suggest (...actually, to state) that Irish Wolfhounds are taller, on average, than Great Danes, is not accurate and clearly can't be supported scientifically. Please remove or correct that information.

In terms of weight, I find Great Danes to have one of the most variable weights of any dog breed. There are small, purebred Danes who weigh only 90lbs, with some very tall and/or overweight Danes weighing over 200lbs. Based on over 30 years of experience, I would suggest a reasonable weight range of 100-150lbs for the vast majority of female Danes, and 120-175lbs for the vast majority of male Danes.

Typically, females are 30" or above in height. (Height is measured at the top of the shoulder while standing on all fours, on a hard, level surface.) The tallest females I've personally come across, were 36" tall. Males are usually over 32", and more commonly in the 34-38" range. The tallest male I've personally met was 40.5". That tall male was only maybe 130lbs (very thin for his extraordinary height), while another Dane I know, who was 39" tall and "substantial" in appearance, was 190lbs. I find that most Danes over 200lbs are overweight. However, it is reasonable to believe that a very tall male (over 39") could be a healthy weight and over 200lbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.12.41 (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

The history and pop culture sections were badly cluttered with trivia, uncited and ill-placed matter. Did my best to clean them up. DavidOaks (talk) 03:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Breeding

Can they still be crossed with very small dogs? eg invitro?--203.192.91.4 (talk) 12:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)ɟ

I'm guessing that could be possible. I've seen a German Shepherd and Corgi mix, and someone I know says they have a friend who have a German Shepherd Chihuahua mix. I'm not sure if they were joking, but it could be possible. --Mokoniki (talk) 16:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)Mokoniki

I'd like to see a source on the statement "Now that Danes are primarily companion animals, cropping is sometimes still done for traditional and cosmetic reasons. Today, the practice is somewhat common in the United States and much less common in Europe."

Especially the part about "somewhat common in the United States." It is still overwhelmingly common as any Dane breeder or person showing Danes will tell you. It is only very recently (1995+) that the european fashion for uncropped ears has even appeared in the USA. And today it is still unheard of in the show ring and extremely rare at smaller Dane shows period.

Someone's agenda is showing by using the words "somewhat common". Now please provide a link proving your theory or someone please remove that loaded comment from the wiki.

Overall the page is looking much much much better than it did a year or two ago when I first looked at it however! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.153.248 (talk) 05:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It needs a reftag, but I can't see that it's "loaded" or represents an "agenda". It would be nice if somebody could bring forward an authoritative and empirical statement on the practice and trends, especially in light of the increasing number of jurisdictions that restrict cosmetic modifications of animals. DavidOaks (talk) 12:53, 10 February 2010 (UTC) Found some; here's a potential insertion -- "Ear croping is banned in the UK, but still commmon in the US, though increasingly controversial[2] and the largest chain of pet hospitals in the country has adopted a policy of refusing to perform such procedures[3] The AKC continues to approve the practice as part of breed standards, though the American Veterinary Medical Association and the World Small Animal Veterinary Association have condemned the practice.[4]": DavidOaks (talk) 13:00, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

New to section headers

Hi, theres a little mistake in your text. "hund" is not an older version of the word hunt. its german and means dog. thats it. "visitor" No, the semantic meaning of the Germanic word hund is related to the English word "hunt".Dkviking 09:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

"hund" means dog. "jaeger" or "jagd" means hunt. source: http://leo.dict.org. --24.139.46.213 (talk) 10:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Poor Intro

The intro contains trivial information about the length, width and height of the biggest dog in the world. It also lists the measurements with cm first, then inches for one dog... then it lists the measurements in the opposite order for another dog, which is distracting. Either way, the article repeats this info in the "Appearance" section.--24.139.46.213 (talk) 10:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Harry Potter Books

In the Harry Potter Books, Fang (Hagrid's dog) is mentioned as a boarhound (an old term for Great Dane). I believe that it should be mentioned in the pop culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.54.115.185 (talk) 16:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Alexander Pope's Great Dane Bounce

I added a note about Alexander Pope's Great Dane. it would be nice if this article could incorporate the painting by Jonathan Richardson of Alexander Pope and his great dane from 1718 [5], as it is a nice and famous painting of a Dane, although interestingly his Great Dane Bounce looks very different than Great Danes do nowadays. I could not find an online or .edu-hosted image of the painting, though, so I was unsure about uploading it. If anyone can find a legal image we could use that would be neat. It also would be a nice addition to the Pope article.

Slugmaster (talk) 02:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Although?

Shouldn't this be because or as? "Although Great Danes have a fairly slow metabolism they need daily exercise the same as any other dog, and a fair amount of it." do do doo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.142.253 (talk) 19:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

History

A female blue Great Dane

Some sources state that dogs similar to Great Danes were known in Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome. Various sources report that the Great Dane was developed from the medieval boarhound, and of the Mastiff and Irish wolfhound lines. It is also reported that the Great Dane was developed from mastiff-like dogs taken to Germany by the Alans. The breed may be about 400 years old. The Bullenbeisser may be its direct ancestor composing about the 40% of its make-up.

Great Danes Gislev church, Denmark 1500-25

The Great Dane Raro, Denmark 1655

The Great Dane Sultan, Denmark 1699

In 1749 Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon began publishing his large thesis on evolution called ”Histoire Naturelle, générale et particulière”. His uses the large hound as an example of evolution (Book 4) and since he cannot find it anywhere in France or in Germania he seeks it in its home turf Denmark. It is he who for the first time coins the name ”le Grand Danois”. In the English translation of his work by William Smellie (encyclopedist) the same word becomes ”Great Dane”. Up until that time the hound was referred to in England as ”Danish dog” (see "Canine Madness”, 1762).

Le Grand Danois

We know from a thesis by the Dane Jacob Nicolay Wilse titled ”Fuldstændig beskrivelse af stapelstaden Fridericia – efter pålidelige underretninger og egne undersøgninger.” (page 176) and published in 1767 that the Danes called the dog ”large hound”, a terminology continued well in to the 20th Century.

In Germany in 1780 the hound is referred to as ”Grosse Dänische Yagd Hund” or ”Large Danish Hunting Hound” (see Edward C. Ash : Practical Dog Book, 1931, ”The Great Dane").

The first dog exhibition was held in Hamburg 14-20 July 1863. 8 dogs were called ”Dänische Dogge” and 7 ”Ulmer Doggen”.

The records of FCI from this meeting shows that all documentation was published in Bulletin Officiel de la Société Canine de Monaco, August 1937.

At some point, either during or immediately after World War II, the country of origin of the hound is changed from the original Denmark to Germany. FCI would appear to no longer have the records that would be able to explain why that might be.

DavidOaks (talk) 14:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC) Taking silence for consent, or at least non-objection, I'm making the swap. DavidOaks (talk) 18:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this new version of the history and it being in the article now. How's that for non-silent consent :) Many thanks for your work improving this article. Roadmr (t|c) 00:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

great danes are massive dogs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.136.33 (talk) 07:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There appears to be a conflict in the article on the heritage of the dog. In the info box the Country of Origin is identified as "Germany". However, further down the article says: "The German attempt to make the Great Dane a German breed continued with the rise Nazi Germany. In December 1936 the Danish national kennel association “Dansk Kennel Klub” was put on notice in writing that Germany will demand the cessation of usage of any words not identifying the hound as of German origin..."

This is unclear, can we revisit this.

86.150.69.106 (talk) 21:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)Jpprivate

The Great Dane is a German breed

Danish Wikipedia: http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granddanois (Tysk = Deutsch = German)

http://www.fci.be/nomenclature.aspx Group 2, Section 2 : Molossoid breeds --Zuviele Interessen (talk) 13:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Nonetheless the dog is called in Germany by both names: "Dänische Dogge" & "Deutsche Dogge" (Danish / German 'Mastiff').--Zuviele Interessen (talk) 13:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism and false claims on the Great Dane Wikipedia page

22nd September 2013 I opened up the subject on the talk page in order to reach a wider audience of readers that would be able to comment on the issue. Not the least, I would have hoped that those responsible for the current content on the Great Dane page would have taking opportunity to argue why their version of history should be considered the whole truth. Thus far no comments have been forthcoming. On advice, I therefore expand the subject to a "Requests for comment" (RfC)matter and hope to be able to canvas more readers for arguments.

Flemming Rickfors (talk) 11:26, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

30th May 2013, I corrected the historic information on the Great Dane page so that it contained information we can verify from original records (se contents at the bottom of this message).

This information has been vandalized, removed, twisted around and largely replaced with false information from beginning to end - the current state of the Wikipedia page on the Great Dane.

For those of you not familiar with the issue, the Great Dane has been the unfortunate victim of German nationalism since about 1880; an agression carried on by Nazi-Germany, beginning with a threat issued to the Danes in December 1936.

Since we are we are dealing with "holocaust-denial" type of vandalism, it would be extremely helpful to have several set of non-partisan eyes take a close look at what is going on on this page. The true history of the Great Dane is not that complicated. However, the aggresive rewriting of history by German interests is a problem, especially if Wikipedia wishes reflect factual history.

Let us beginning with the very first sentence:

“The Great Dane, also denoted as Grand Danois, is a German breed[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

The seven sources documenting this false statement are:

1. a b c d e f g "Great Dane Breed Standard". American Kennel Club. 1999.
2. a b Standards and Nomenclature, Group 2, Section 2, Molossoid breeds: 5. Germany: Deutsche Dogge (235) (Great Dane)
3. Diane McCarty: Great Danes,TFH Publications, 1997, p. 6, ISBN 978-0793823130
4. Jore Stahlkuppe: Great Danes (Complete Pet Owner's Manual), Publisher: Barron's Educational Series, 2012, p. 7, ISBN 978-0764147463
5. Jill Swedlow: New Owners Guide Great Danes (New Owner's Guide To...),Publisher: TFH Publications, 1997, p. 8, ISBN 978-0793827640
6. Charlotte Wilcox: The Great Dane, Capstone, 1997, p. 5, ISBN 1560655437
7. J. Allen Varasdi: Myth Information: More Than 590 Popular Misconceptions, Fallacies, and Misbeliefs Explained!, Google eBook, 2011'

In other words, coffee table books and hearsay accounts, all perpetuating fabrications begun by Bismarck from 1880. Not a single of the above accounts contain any original documentation to support any statement of the Great Dane being anything other than the large hunting dog of the Danes, in this case the Danish Royal family.

I challenge anyone to put forward any scientific source before 1880, the year the term “Deutsche Dogge” was invented, that suggest otherwise. This is an important challenge - any source, in any language, from any university or Royal stud book would suffice, in any country before 1880.

Let us look at some original sources:

• Viggo Møller: Hunden og Hunderacerne (1887, chapter 11, Guard Dogs, The Great Dane, pages 218-233): In Danish

"Men nu vil Tyskerne se at faa Benævnelsen "stor dansk Hund" ud af Verden. De har i de sidste 8-10 Aar begyndt at drive Hundesport, og om end deres Kynologi endnu staar paa Begyndelsesstandpunktet, arbejdes der dog meget ihærdig, og de er ikke bange for at annektere ogsaa paa dette Omraade....Bestræbelserne i saa Henseende gjøres især af den tyske Forening "Hector", og ved Artikler og Afbildninger søger man at slaa fast, at den store danske Hund skal kaldes "Deutsche Dogge

With my English translation

”But now the Germans are seeking to exterminate from this world the term ”Great Dane”. 8-10 years ago they became active in the dog world. Even though their level of knowledge remains basic, they show great initiative and are not afraid to seek new territory, also as far as dogs are concerned … Efforts in this regard is mostly taken by the German association “Hector”. By articles and depictions they seek to promote the view that the Great Dane should now the termed “Deutsche Dogge”.

Let us then move on and ask the Germans themselves how the whole falsification process took off:

• Dr. A. Ströse: Unsere Hunde - Form und Leben des Hundes (Erster Band, Neudamm 1902):

German: "Im Jahre 1880 wurden durch eine in Berlin tagende Kommission alle diese früheren lokalen benennungen für ein und dieselbe rasse unter dem gemeinschaftlichen namen deutsche Dogge zusammengesasst".

My English translation: “In the year 1880 a commission in Berlin amalgamated all earlier names for this breed under the name Deutsche Dogge”.

The same statement in German can be read in "Brehms Tierleben" (1890-93, 3rd edition, Säugetiere - Zweiter Band, pages 125-126)

Now we know how and why the falsification began. Well, what did the Germans have to say before the year 1880?

The year 1817

Dr. Friedrich Ludwig Walther (1759-1824): Der Hund, feine verfchiedenen Zuchten und Varietäten, Gefchichte feiner Verbreitung und Schickfale, Erziehung, Benutzung, Krankheiten und Feinde; (Gießen, 1817, p. 33):

d) danicus, die Dänifche Dogge. Le grand Danois, Buffon. tab. XLV. Pennant. 254, Sukow. 241. v. Schreber. III. 22. Encycl. 374. Sehr groß, mit kurzen schmahlen Ohren, fchlankem Leib, hohen Beinen. Buffon fah Einen, der fitzend fünf Fuß höhe hatte. Die Schnautze ift lang, der Leib fällt nach hinten zu ab. Fett werden fie nie. Sie find nach Milleri Prodromus Zoologiae danicae felbft in Dänemark felten. Ich habe in meinem Leben ein einziges Mahl diefen Hund gefehen. Er war mäufegrau.

Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884): Der Hund und seine Racen. Naturgeschichte des zahmen Hundes, seiner Formen, Racen und Kreuzungen” (Tübingen, 1876) is the book that is issued on the back of his Ph.D.

From his actual Ph.D. (pages 479-480) in the section “9. Der grosse dänische Hund (Canis leporarius, danicus)" - i.e. the Great Dane, we find it mentioned as such in German.

9. Der grosse dänische Hund (Canis leporarius, danicus).

Daenischer Hund. Ridinger. Entw. einiger Thiere. Th. I. Nr. 18. t. 18. Vordere Figur links: Grand Danois. Buffon. Hist. nat. d. Quadrup. V. V. p. 240. t. 26. Großer Dänischer Hund. Haller. Naturg. d. Thiere. S. 482. Nr. 3. Can danese grande. Alessandri. Anim. quadrup. T. H. t. 92. 480 Fitzinger. Danish dog. Penn. Synops. Quadrup. p. 146. Nr. 4. y. Großer dänischer Hund, Martini. Buffon Naturg. d. vierf. Thiere. B. II. p. 161. t. 22. Dänischer Blendling. Schreber. Säugth. B. III. S. 326. Nr. 1. 22. Canis familiaris. Var. φ. Erxleb. Syst. regn. anim. P. I. p. 548 Nr. 1. φ. „ „ danicus s. lorarius. Zimmerm. Geogr. Gesch. d. Mensch. u. d. Thiere. B. I. S. 297. Nr. 15. 9. i. „ „ Var. δ. Danicus. Boddaert. Elench. anim. V. I. p. 96. Nr. 16. 3. δ. ... „ „ danicus. Bechst. Naturg. Deutschl. B. I. S. 572. Nr. 6. „ „ Molossus, danicus. Walth. Hund. S. 33. Nr. 8. d. Chien Danois. Canis fam. danicus. Desm. Mammal, p. 191. Nr. 292. C. „ „ Lesson. Mammal. p. 1 59. Nr. 425. 7. Canis fam. Danicus. Fisch. Synops. Mammal. p. 173. Nr. 2. 1. ß. „ „ „ Fitz. Fauna. Beitr. z. Landesk. Österr. B. I. S. 299. „ „ laniarius danicus. Reichenb. Regu. anim. P. I. p. 17. Fig. 166. 167. Großer dänischer Jagdhund. Götz. Hunde-Gallerie. S. 9. Nr. 22. Fig. 22. Canis fam. laniarius danicus. Reichenb. Naturg. Raubth. S. 158. Fig. 166, 167. Danish Dog. Canis glaucus. Smith. Nat. Hist. of Dogs. V. H. p. 152, 293. Grand Danois. Canis fam. danicus major. Laurill. D'Orbigny Dict. d'hist. nat. T. III. p. 543. Nr. 2. Großer dänischer Hund. Youatt, Weiß. Hund. S. 32. „ „ „ Fitz. Naturg. Säugeth. B. I. S. 149. Canis fam. danicus. Gieb. Säugeth. S. 844.

Der große dänische Hund ist ein Blendling, der seinen körperlichen Merkmalen zufolge aus der Kreuzung des großen Windhundes (Canis leporanus) mit dem englischen Jagdhunde (Canis sagax, anglicus) entsprossen, mithin ein einfacher Bastard reiner Kreuzung ist. Seine Abstammung ist sonach beinahe dieselbe, wie jene des französischen Fleischerhundes.

As with any good Ph.D. the paper lists all the resources used to arrive at the conclusion that the Great Dane is …. a Great Dane.

• Daenischer Hund Johann Elias Ridinger (Ulm 1698 – Augsburg 1767): Entwurf(f) einiger Thiere (1738-1755).
• Grand Danois George Louis Leclerc, comte de Buffon (1707-1788): Histoire Naturelle, générale et particulière, Avec la description du cabinet du roi. Tome Cinquième. (1755), Le Chien avec ses variétés (s. 185-311)
• Großer Dänischer Hund Johann Samuel [Haller] Halle : Die Naturgeschichte der Thiere in sistematischer Ordnung. Die vierfüssigen Thiere, welche lebendige Jungen zur Welt bringen; nebst der Geschichte der Menschen. Mit Kupfern. (1757) / Die Vögelgeschichte mit Kupfern. Zweeter Band. (1760) (Berlin 1757-1760)
• Can danese grande Innocente Alessandri (ca. 1740-?) og Pietro Scattaglia: Animali quadrupedi al naturale disegnati, incisi, e miniati con i loro veri colori (Venezia: Carlo Palese, 1771-75)
• Danish dog Thomas Pennant (1726-1798): Synopsis of Quadrupeds (1771,Third Edition 1773, s. 240).
• Großer dänischer Hund Friedrich Heinrich Wilhelm Martini (1729-1778): Naturgeschichte der vierfüssigen Thiere. En tysk oversættelse af Buffon.
• Dänischer Blendling Johan Christian Daniel von Schreber (1739-1810): Die Säugthiere in Abbildungen nach der Natur mit Beschreibungen (1775)
• Canis familiaris. Var. Professur für Physik und Tierheilkunde an der Göttinger Universität, Johann Christian Polycarp Erxleben (1744-1777): Dijudicationem Systematum Animalium (1767)
• Canis familiaris danicus s. lorarius Professor Eberhard August Wilhelm von Zimmermann (1743-1815): Geographische Geschichte des Menschen und der vierfüßigen Tiere (Leipzig 1778-83).
• Canis familiaris Var. Danicus Pieter Boddaert (1730-1795/96): Elenchus Animalium (1785).
• Canis familiaris danicus Dr. Johann Matthäus Bechstein [Bechst] (1757-1822): Gemeinnützige Naturgeschichte Deutschlands (1789-95). "Dr. Johann Matthäus Bechstein war ein deutscher Naturforscher, Forstwissenschaftler und Ornithologe" (Naturkundemuseum, Erfurt)
• Canis familiaris Molossus, danicus Dr. Friedrich Ludwig Walther (1759-1824): Der Hund, feine verfchiedenen Zuchten und Varietäten, Gefchichte feiner Verbreitung und Schickfale, Erziehung, Benutzung, Krankheiten und Feinde; (Gießen, 1817, s. 33).
• Chien Danois. Canis fam. danicus Anselme Gaëtan Desmarest [Desm] (1784-1838): Mammalogie ou description des espèces des Mammifères. Paris: Veuve Agasse (1820)
• Chien Danois René-Primevère Lesson (1794-1849): Instinct et singularités de la vie des Animaux Mammifères, (Paulin/Paris, 1842), Description de mammifères et d'oiseaux récemment découverts; précédée d'un Tableau sur les races humaines (1847)
• Canis fam. Danicus Johann Gotthelf Fischer von Waldheim (1771-1853).
• Canis fam. Danicus Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884): Systematisches Verzeichniß der im Erzherzogthume Österreich vorkommenden Weichthiere, als Prodrom einer Fauna derselben. - Beiträge zur Landeskunde Österreich's unter der Enns 3: 88-122. Wien (1832).
• Canis fam. laniarius danicus Heinrich Gottlieb Ludwig Reichenbach (1793-1879): Regnum animale (1834–36).
• Großer dänischer Jagdhund Theodor Götz: Hunde-Gallerie oder naturgetreue Darstellung des Hundes in 43 reinen unvermischten Raçen, mit einer kurzen Einleitung und Beschreibung jeder Raçe (Weimar, 1838. Mit 43 Hundebildern auf 32 kolorierten Kupfertafeln) .
• Canis fam. laniarius danicus Heinrich Gottlieb Ludwig Reichenbach (1793-1879): Vollständigste Naturgeschichte des In- und Auslandes (1845–54, 2 Sektionen in 9 Bänden mit über 1.000 Tafeln)
• Danish Dog Lieutenant-Colonel Charles Hamilton Smith (1776-1859): The Natural History of Dogs. Canidæ or genus canis of authors (Edinburgh, Vol. II., 1840)
• Grand Danois. Canis fam. danicus major Charles d'Orbigny (1806-76): Dictionnaire D'Histoire Naturelle (1841-1849).
• The Great Danish Dog (Großer dänischer Hund) William Youatt (1776-1847): The Dog (London, 1845).
• Großer dänischer Hund Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884): Wissenschaftlich-populäre Naturgeschichte der Säugethiere in ihren sämmtlichen Hauptformen: nebst einer Einleitung in die Naturgeschichte uberhaupt und in die Lehre von den Thieren insbesondere (1860-61,).
• Canis fam. danicus Christoph Gottfried Andreas Giebel (1820-1881): Die säugetiere in zoologischer, analomischer und palaeontologischer beziehung (1855)

The list is so overwhelming that we need not even bother to look at the Danish sources that are older and more detailed. We just need to ask the Germans themselves.

We have in a depiction from 1768 by Johann Jakob Ridinger and Martin Elias Ridinger (1720-80) in their book ”Thierreich” (Thierbuch). The large hunting dog for wild boar in the German princedoms at the time is called “Dänischer Hund” (Danish hound).

It follows from this brief presentation, fully documented, that the current version describing the history of the Great Dane in Wikipedia is plain wrong, and it is certainly not because the truth is not available.

However, I did notice that a very small paragraph I wrote in my correction back in May 2013 has been left on the Great Dane page, no doubt because it simply cannot be ignored:

In December 1936 the Danish national kennel association “Dansk Kennel Klub” was put on notice in writing that Germany demanded the cessation of usage of any words not identifying the hound as of German origin on the forthcoming General Assembly of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) in Paris 22 July 1937. After World War II The Secretary General of the FCI Baron A. Houtart writes a letter, copied to the Danish national kennel association. The letter is dated 15 November 1948 and says in French:

"Pour la F.C.I. cette race a toujours été et reste encore une race nationale danoise ; seul le standard déposé par le Dansk Kennelklub est officiel à ses yeux"

(As far as the FCI is concerned, this breed [The Great Dane] has always been and shall remain a Danish breed; only the standard provided by the Danish national kennel association is the official one in our view).

The original letter is kept with the FCI and the Great Dane Club of Denmark.

I have a copy of the letter ready for inspection by anyone interested.

Finally, let me end with referring to this statement, currently on the Great Dane Wikipedia site:

“However, today the FCI designates the Great Dane as German breed[2] as does the Danish Kennel Club[citation needed].”

I assure you that the Dansk Kennel Klub (it does not use its English name as per international protocol) does not recognize nor designate the Great Dane as a German breed. It never has, and never will.

In this regard may I also refer you to the Minutes of the FCI General Committee, Madrid, 24-25th February 2010, Circular 90/2010, page 6):

Letter of DKK : origin of the Great Dane : Mr Hindse reports. A very long debate takes place during which different options are proposed as there is no unanimous consensus

1. The FCI Office does more research into this matter 2. The General Committee confirms the fact that the breed is a German breed and sees no evidence to question that 3. Bi-lateral talks between the two clubs

Option 1 : 5 votes
Option 2 : 1 vote
Option 3 : 1 vote
2 abstentions.

Mr De Clercq will start investigating even more intensively into the FCI archives. In the meantime, the General Committee will inform the DKK and ask for possible comments from

the VDH.

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/90-2010-annex-en.pdf

The answer to that "investigation" was provided to the Dansk Kennel Klub in September 2012. The contents of the letter is at the moment still confidential. What I can disclose is that the answer provided by the FCI is fully in line with the historic facts as I have outlined above (and below); not the virtual reality sought by German interests.

As a member of the Board of directors of the Great Dane Club of Denmark, I have been asked by many, many English speaking members of the Great Dane world to react to the outrage currently written on the Wikipedia page, I now submit this evidence for your consideration.

Best regards

Flemming Rickfors (talk) 22:06, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia correction 30th May 2013 written by Flemming Rickfors

Dogs resembling the Great Dane have been seen on Egyptian monuments dating back to 3,000 BC.[3] In all literature in all languages, bar none, up until the year 1880 the Great Dane is fully recognized as being the great hunting dog for big game from the Royal Danish Kennels.

The Great Dane is depicted on numerous rune stones in Scandinavia, on coinage in Denmark from the 5th Century ACE and in the collection of Old Norse poems, known in English as Poetic Edda. The University of Copenhagen Zoological Museum holds at least seven skeletons of very large hunting dogs, dating from the 5th Century BCE going forward through to the year 1000 ACE.

The escalating German aggression throughout Europe in the 19th Century lead Otto von Bismarck to set up a commission, ”Kynologischer Verein Hektor” whose purpose it was to invent a new origin of the hound away from Denmark, its enemy at the time. The result was a new word Deutsche Dogge. This is made public in 1878 and from 1880 it becomes illegal in the German Reich to refer to the dog as anything but ”Deutsche Dogge”. Literature after this date in German, and when translated to other languages such as English sought to perpetuate this new truth. The original Great Dane was lighter in construction than the current one. We know this both from depictions and from the Royal Danish Hunting Protocols (with the National Archives in Copenhagen). We also know what caused this to change, when and how.

In the 16th Century the Royal Courts of Denmark introduce the new fashion of the Parforce Hunt – a hunt where the hunting dogs are no longer allowed to run down and kill the large game. On the contrary the hounds are expected to hunt the deer, boar or wolf, knock it down and hold it firm until the human huntsman arrives and then makes the kill.

We can see from the Hunting Protocols of the Royal Danish court that the Great Dane was not well equipped to perform this new role in the Parforce Hunt. It was too light in built to hold down a deer or wolf without killing it. To solve this problem Frederick II of Denmark sends a ship to London in 1585 to bring back “Englandshvalpe” (English puppies) given to him by Queen Elizabeth I of England. The "English puppies" are the far heavier English mastiff (today known by it's name in Danish from the 19th Century Broholmer). The protocols of the Royal Danish Kennel maintain two separates lines in the kennel’s breeding programme; the Danish and the English line. The cross breeding becomes known in Danish as “Blendinge” (same word and meaning as the English word “Blend”). This new line of large hounds is the foundation of the present day Great Dane. For further reading on the Danish hunt, see C. Weismann: Vildtets og Jagtens Historie (1931).

The German attempt to make the Great Dane a German breed continued with the rise Nazi Germany. In December 1936 the Danish national kennel association “Dansk Kennel Klub” was put on notice in writing that Germany will demand the cessation of usage of any words not identifying the hound as of German origin on the forthcoming General Assembly of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) in Paris 22nd July 1937. The German claims were refuted. After World War II The Secretary General of the FCI Baron A. Houtart writes a letter, copied to the Danish national kennel association. The letter is dated 15th November 1948 and says in French:

"Pour la F.C.I. cette race a toujours été et reste encore une race nationale danoise ; seul le standard déposé par le Dansk Kennelklub est officiel à ses yeux"

(As far as the FCI is concerned, this breed [The Great Dane] has always been and shall remain a Danish breed; only the standard provided by the Danish national kennel association is the official one in our view).

The original letter is kept with the FCI and the Great Dane Club of Denmark.

Comment of Tikuku

Comments

So... why can't we cover both versions of the history? Is there a reason? Also, you seem to be presenting evidence pro-danish history, when the quote you gave supports the opposite: "General Committee confirms the fact that the breed is a German breed". It seems to me that the majority of sources show that this is a german-developed breed with its origins in Denmark. Also, this is a very long-winded and difficult to read RFC; you might be better off making it more concise if you can, as few people are likely to plow through this mess. --TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 05:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I do in fact cover both sides of the story in my suggested description of the history of the Great Dane:

I have provided 20+ non-Danish sources suggesting that the Great Dane is...a Great Dane. I have also documented what led the Germans to suddenly seek to attempt to change the identity of the Great Dane from 1880 onwards. I am most certainly not seeking to promote a pro-Danish viewpoint. I am merely seeking to describe the truth, and the truth is not even close to being in doubt.

You write: "General Committee confirms the fact that the breed is a German breed".

I am not sure what you are referring to so if you would please specify where I, or any reliable source, suggest that the Great Dane is a German breed. What I do quote is the FCI itself in its definitive statement on the matter in 1948, confirming the General Assembly of the FCI in July 1937. What the FCI has stated is this:

"As far as the FCI is concerned, this breed [The Great Dane] has always been and shall remain a Danish breed; only the standard provided by the Danish national kennel association is the official one in our view".

You write: "the majority of sources show that this is a german-developed breed with its origins in Denmark".

Feel free to provide any evidence whatsoever, from any legitimate source in any language anywhere in the world that the Great Dane is a German-developed breed, regardless of us seemingly agreeing on its origin being Denmark.

Let me help you a little bit along the road of what I am looking for. The Great Dane is only found in one single royal kennel until 1741. That kennel can still be seen north of Copenhagen. After the Hunt finally shuts down and the dogs are disbursed throughout Denmark from 1777 onwards, there is no organised breeding anywhere in the world of the Great Dane. Germany attacks pretty much everyone in the latter half of the 19th Century. It gains territory, from France to Denmark, and becomes a local powerhouse. But there is still no organised breeding or kennel club organisation for any dog breed anywhere.

In the newly created German Reich modern day dog sport only begins in the years 1867-69. The German magazine "Der Hund" is issued for the first time in 1876. Therefore, when we in literature from the early 20th Century, almost always German sourced with a twist, here the generic notion of Germans having "improved the Great Dane", what we can actually demonstrate from original sources is that breeders in the new German Reich in the very short time span between 1877-1883 spend a lot of energy on producing Great Danes. The reasons for this are also known and are twofold:

Denmark was largely occupied by Germany from 1864 until 1920 in vast part of her lands. Secondly, Bismarck had declared the Great Dane a "reichhund" (emperial dog) at the Berliner Congress June-July 1878. Thus the local breeders had to breed dogs to feed the name that was invented in 1878-1880 for the new Deutsches Reich - the Deutsche Dogge.

So put 6 years of German improvement against amost 2.000 years of breeding by the Danes. But as always, if you can demonstrate that what I have suggested above is not the case, by all means come forward with good evidence. I am sure that are good hidden sources of wisdom out there.

I am fully in agreement with you on the information overkill on this page but such is the burden of proof when seeking to address vandalism and false claims on the Great Dane Wikipedia page.

I am not suggesting the full load of sources to be included in the final version. However, it is important to me to convince any outsiders of the true story of the Great Dane, and to let any of my suggestions be tested against any legitimate and recognised source.

Flemming Rickfors (talk) 01:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

History

--- History Section UNREADABLE. Looks like some kind of poorly translated German. Should be removed or fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.74.64 (talk) 05:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I've introduced some weasel words into the History section, I'm afraid. The theories are mutually contradictory, so we can't assert any one as being absolute truth without completely invalidating the others. Barnabypage 23:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I have introduced a short form English version of the history of the dog from my chapter which in Danish is called "Mjóhund & Grey - Danernes Store Hund". It may be seen in Danish here: http://verasir.dk/show.php?file=chap24-1.html#toc122 Since this is an exercise in truthful reporting of history I am happy to provide all supporting documents for those interested. Flemming Rickfors 28th August 2006 (Odinkarr 23:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC));

actually, if you have the sources for all this information, you need to go ahead and cite them in the article. You can use WP:CITE as a guideline on how to do this, if you need help on putting the citiations in place, feel free to ask - Trysha ^(talk) 00:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Trysha, I have had a go at it this morning and have added som visual history. I have sought to interlink as much as possible to elsewhere in the Wikipedia world. There are some Wikepidia pages available in Danish and German which I seem unable to link to on this English site. Perhaps that's one of the main rules of the network. Tell me where I need to improve it further. Best regards Flemming (Odinkarr 14:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC))

There are InterWiki links to articles on "Great Dane" on the Danish and German language WPs (see "In other languages" in the left column of the article page). The Danish and German language articles linked to this article are very short and unsourced. In any case, articles on Wikipedia (in any langugage) cannot be cited as sources for a WP article. You need to cite reliable published sources (per WP:V and WP:RS) to support your edits. Please also do not include any original research. -- Donald Albury 14:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Donald,

Many thanks for your comments. I am new to the Wikipedia network so bear with me as I work through the various issues. Let me start by addressing each part.

You have written:

"Some sources state that dogs similar to Great Danes were known in Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome.[1][2][3] Various sources report that the Great Dane was developed from the medieval boarhound, and or the Mastiff and Irish wolfhound lines.[1][4] It is also reported that the Great Dane was developed from mastiff-like dogs taken to Germany by the Alans.[5] The breed may be about 400 years old.[2]"

I cannot see your sources to this but I have a reasonable understanding of the various sources we have available.

The dog, like all dogs, arise from a domestication of the wolf east of the River Tanais (Don)river, i.e. east of Ukraine at some point. Indoeuropean migration south to Mesopotamia about 2000 BCE suggests the likely way the large dog arrives in this area. This has several consequences for understanding the origin:

1. The large dog is mentioned in Rig Veda (1700-1000 BCE) in Book 10:XIV – Yama (two black large dogs guarding the entrance to the next world) and Book 7:LV – Vastopati (as a guard dog in the colour fawn) and finally in Book 10:LXXXVI - Indra (as a hunter of wild boar). What part of Rig Veda is Indo-European Northern India and what part is Indo-European North of Hindu Kush is impossible to determine. All we can say, I believe, is that the large dog is there.

2. Homer in the Illiad from ca. 800 BCE depicting the 10 year battle of Troy ending in 1184 BCE refers to dogs in Book XXIII (house dogs. Plato ca. 360 BCE in Republic, book V makes "house dogs" = hunting dogs), X, XVII and XVIII (shepherd dogs). No Greek writer refers to large dogs amongst the Greeks.

3. As Mesopotamia becomes Babylonia we obviously would expect and do in fact see the large and heavy dogs amongst the Assyrians. We see them visually year 7-600 BCE and in philosophy as the god Merodach had 4 dogs:

Ukkumu (”Seizer”) Akkulu (”Eater”) Ikssuda (”Grasper”) Iltebu (”Holder”)

This shows us that the dogs were actively breed for a working purpose and thus natural selection did not apply to the hounds.

By the year 7-600 BCE the large hounds now are found in Babylonia and in Northern India/North of Hindu Kush. However, I have seen no solid sources that suggest that the Egyptions ever had large dogs but perhaps you have a source that can prove otherwise.

Likewise, I feel certain that the Greeks also never did have the large dogs as Homer and Plato have suggested. The reason is that Plinius 77 ACE explains to us that Alexander The Great in July 326 BCE were given two large dogs by King Porus/Puru from the kingdom of Paurava. These two dogs were "inusitatae magnitudinis” or "extraordinary large". In Greek these dogs becomes known as "Indian Mastiff" (Strabo tells us about 7 BCE that it took 4 large hounds to put down a lion). The very fact that the Greeks give them the name "Indian Mastiffs" suggest not only their origin but that the Greeks did not themselves have them. Therefore I would find it incorrect to use a Greek origin I other than to perhaps quote the two authors.

As to the Romans I would fully support that the Roman had the large dogs. However, aside from great engineering skills, pretty much nothing is originally from Rome.

Lucius Giunius Moderatus Columella about year 60 ACE explains to us in De Re Rustica (on agriculture) about Canis Pugnax (fighting dogs) and Pugnaces Britanniae (British fighting dogs). The term ”British” is here prior to the first migration from Angel and Jutland to East Anglia and Kent from year 449 and 50 years onwards. Thus the ”British” are the Celts. As I have mentioned in my draft, the Celts absolutely bring along large hounds as they migrate from the Crimea to Northern Europe, Britannia and Gaul in the 5th Century BCE.

The Poet Nemesianus write in ”Cynegetica” (on the Hunt) about 283 ACE that ”Certain British send us (the Romans) a swift type (of hound), adapted to the hunt in our part of the world".

Again, The Romans are getting their large hunting dogs from the Celts whilst occupying Britannia.

Just prior the the Roman exodus from Britannia, and things are pretty hairy back home as well, Quintus Aurelius Symmachus in 393 ACE writes to his brother Flavonius thanking him for ”Canes Scotici” (Scotish hounds) which he had received.

The Romans called ”Ireland” for ”Scotia Major” and Scotland for ”Scotia Minor” indicating that we originally had Celts in both areas what data also confirms. We cannot say more than that the dogs came from the British isles and that the Romans got their large dogs from the Celts.

Therefore we have to refute the notion that the large dogs came from the Romans. Its the other way around. The Romans needed the large dogs for their entertainment at circus and forum and they breed them in 3 categories: Celeres (those who track animals), Villatici (those who attacked animals) and Villatici (those who guarded).

Moving on I would therefore argue that the Irish Wolfhound would be a direct descendant of the large hound of the Celts. Most people seem to agree with this although Edward C. Ash in ”Practical Dog Book” (1931) in the chapter ”The Great Dane” says that “this remarkable dog, the Irish Wolfhound, is a breed produced by the skilful blending of Great Dane and Deerhound”.

I can physically see from the breeding records at the Royal Kennel in Copenhagen that the original Great Dane (as you can see on the old pictures it’s more like a huge greyhound), is crossed with the English mastiff in the 16th Century in order to gain weight and mussle mass for the Parforce Hunt. If the English mastiff in 1585 has Irish Wolfhound lines, and I do not know if it does, then one could argue this if sources could support this.

Finally I am very happy that you have challenged me on the issue of the Medieval Boar Hund. John Wagner writes in ”The Boxer” (1939, 1950-edition, page 27):

”The main portion of most old time German hunting packs were made up of coarse haired, big dogs with bush tails and wolfish heads called 'Rüden.' They were supplied to the courts by the peasants in immense numbers and suffered great losses at every hunt, therefore no particular pains were taken to breed them. The Doggen and Bullenbeisser, however, knew instinctively how to tackle the game from behind and hold it in a way that kept them from serious injury yet gave the hunters time to reach the kill therefore they were more valuable to the hunt and were accordingly highly prized and painstakingly bred."

The man John Wagner quotes from is perhaps even more important. The words above are from Johann Elias Ridinger (Ulm 1698-1767 Augsburg) and he is a landscape painter with the Prince of Augsburg. We have copper engravings showing the Parforce Hunt in Augsburg 1729 and again in 1761. We have in those engravings large packs of hunting dogs. In the engraving from 1729 we have no Great Dane, in 1761 we do. The difference is the 25 pack of hounds (about 175 dogs) that arrive from the King of Denmark to southern Germania in 1741.

The final giveaway in this long riddle is the word ”Rüden”. You can see the description of this rough, hairy fox/wolf like dog above. Peter Brügel The Elder’s painting ”Massacre of the innocents” (1565) shows us a dog identical to the description, even orange-reddish like the fox.

The word is in German explained as ”männlichen Hunde, Füchse und Wölfe” i.e. precisely as we have just heard described.

Like ”Hund” in Old English and modern Danish always refers to the male, as does ”dog” in modern English, German follows the same evolution. However, in German a Great Dane that is male is always called ”Rüden”. This is because the original large German hunting dogs are ”Rüden”, not the Great Dane. If that were the case then the male Great Dane in German would be called ”Hund”. But in German a ”Húndinn” (the word taken from a letter I have from 1926 in German) is a bitch. Therefore, the genetic source of the large German hunting dog cannot be the Great Dane.

The German base dogs are mixed with the Great Dane from 1741 onwards and I am sure with Bullenbeisser. Howeer, the lines are very different from those in Denmark/Norway/England and the US.

With regard to the Alani-tribe of the Sarmatian constellation, they do bring the large hound “Alaunt” to Northern Italy, France (Orléans and Valence, ie.the region of Brittany) and Spain (Catalonia = Visigoths + Alans). Little & Malcor agrees with this in ”From Schythia to Camelot” (page 36) and says that this happens about year 360-370.

I would propose that the Dogue de Bordeaux can be traced to this migration but it would come with the caveat that Rollo brings the same dog from Denmark/Norway to Normanday in 912, and the English bring it from England to Bordeaux again in the years 1151 to 1411.

There is not a single piece of evidence that would suggest that that Franks and Longobardians would have permitted their large hounds in to Germania which was enemy territory, nor that it did in fact happen. Perhaps you have some sources to investigate further.

This is what I know on this subject.

Best regards

Flemming

I forgot to put in the line that displays the references in the References section. Take a look at it now. Please, before pursuing your edits here, read Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. These are very fundamental policies of Wikipedia. Your edits do not comply with the verifiability policy, and I strongly suspect that they do not comply with the policy against original research. In addition, NPOV requires that all viewpoints on a subject be included in a fair manner, which generally means that no viewpoint can be represented out of proportion to its prominence in the field. I really think your whole contribution should be moved to this talk page for discussion, but I am not willing to enter into an edit war with you. I'll wait for other editors to comment. -- Donald Albury 23:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

After reading this article and comparing it with a few other dog breed related articles on Wikipedia, I have a few comments (perhaps this will eliminate the risk of an edit war)

a) The history section is too long. If people really want an in depth-history, either make it a separate article, or point to some relevant websites. It's still a little contradictory, and the claims being made are the same ones used by a dozen other breeds on the dog page. b) While the history isn't actually showing original research, you're certainly leading the reader in terms of what is being included. As I mentioned, it's too long, and there are conclusions being drawn from the reference material that advace a specific opinion. This is violation of wikipedia policy, so it's probably better to ignore the conclusions, present the material, and leave it at that. c) There are Point of View issues in the history section, still.

If you like I can clean this article up and distill it further. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CaspianKilkelly (talk • contribs) 20:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

The 'history' section of this article is probably the worst written thing I've seen on wiki. Everything after the first paragraph should be deleted. The 'research' done is questionable at best, but is presented as fact. It reeks of nationalism and seems pretty far from the 'nuetral pov' promoted by wiki. Most sources agree the Dane is of German origin, and this seems like a biased attempt to 'prove' otherwise. Honestly on first reading the article I thought it had been a victim of vandalism. The English used in this section is also fairly convoluted and could use cleaning up. I've never edited a wiki article, but after reading this one felt the need to comment. Apologies if this is in the wrong place.

I agree with the unsigned user above. Unless the theory of German origin has now been entirely dropped from the mainstream in favour of this theory of Danish origin (which to the best of my knowledge it has not), the latter should be presented as - at most - an alternative to the German theory. But it desperately needs sourcing - to borrow the previous commenter's evocative verb, it reeks of OR as well as POV.

I propose that we allow the editor who added the Danish material a reasonable time to provide sources, and if none is forthcoming that it be removed altogether and we revert to the commonly-cited German theory. Barnabypage 19:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. It's a nice surprise to see so much history of the breed covered. This section seems to have been (lovingly) written by someone whose first language is not English, so I have taken the liberty of correcting the grammar. I've changed it into past tense rather than present and also obliterated all instances of first person (I'd overlook one "we" but not every paragraph beginning with it!). I also took out a few weasel words, such as "unnatural". No problems with spelling, although the style is more "Jane Austen" than modern encyclopedia. I've updated the tone where I can. However, there are a few sentences that simply do not make sense and so I am unable to rephrase. Could the original author please reword them?

"As the original purpose of the hound was to be able to take on the wild boar, the Deer and the wolf we often see kennings applied that identify Odin’s two hounds as wolfhounds" - Just makes no sense, I'm afraid.

"The English puppies are far heavier than English mastiffs" - Should this not be the Dutch mastiffs? If you do mean English mastiffs, then I'm afraid this is still confusing.

GM Pink Elephant —Preceding comment was added at 18:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)