Talk:Greater Albania

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Repetition of the same detail and off-topic content

This sentence that says "In many of the claimed regions there are sizable numbers of non-Albanians, and in some almost no native Albanians at all" (someone deleted period at the end of the sentence). The sentence was not originally in the lede but in this part of the article: Albanian nationalists dislike the expression "Greater Albania" and prefer to use the term "Ethnic Albania". Ethnic Albania (Albanian: Shqipëria Etnike) is a term used primarily by Albanian nationalists to denote the territories claimed as the traditional homeland of ethnic Albanians, despite some of these lands also being inhabited by many non-Albanians. Those that use the second term refer to an area which is smaller than the four Ottoman vilayets, while still encompassing Albania, Kosovo, western Macedonia, Albanian populated areas of Southern Serbia and parts of Northern Greece (Chameria) that had a historic native Albanian population. Albanian nationalists ignore that within these regions there are also sizable numbers of non-Albanians. Another term used by Albanians, is "Albanian national reunification" (Albanian: Ribashkimi kombëtar shqiptar). In the same short paragraph, it is repeatedly said that some of the claimed territories have additional non-Albanian populations. Why should this be said two times in the same paragraph?

Furthermore, I deleted off-topic content of the kind "Serbs killed Albanians" and "Albanians killed Serbs". The article is named Greater Albania and its history section should not go in details such as how many non-Albanians fled Kosovo and that actions of Yugoslav army included ethnic cleansing. If any editor has suggestions, it's here where they can discuss. Blindly reverts do not show any kind of good will. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I read this used source and understood that the content I deleted had WP:POV issues. The source says that there were around 400,000 refugees, of whom 55,000 were non-Albanians. My question is, why the number of non-Albanian refugees should be in the article and the number of Albanian ones not? The source actually says that these numbers of refugees were during a certain phase of the war rather than before it as it was presented in the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:07, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

To my opinion, it were your edits that were biased and I have reverted to the last stable version of the article. Please be aware that this article has a restriction of just one revert a day (24 hours), an option you have already used. The Banner talk 18:54, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

@The Banner: Let's discuss everything step by step. I need you to answer this questions:

1. How do you know that every figure in the table is correct? There is no source for most of them.

2. Do you know that a text can be tagged with "need quote to verify" only when the source of the text can not be accessed online? The article has links to all those said sources apart from one that I removed due to over sourcing issue.

3. In the same short paragraph, it is repeatedly said that some of the claimed territories have additional non-Albanian populations. Why should this be said two times in the same paragraph? Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Why do you doubt the figures? Do you have any sources to support your doubts? The Banner talk 19:58, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

@The Banner: In Wikipedia, verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. Thence, if a figure does not have sources, it is my right to doubt it, and I do not need a source for my doubts. If you again do not respond to my questions, I am going to think it wasn't me who made biased edits. I am adding an additional question:

4. The lede should contain content that is present in the other part of the article. I moved two polls results from the lede (because their results were not present in the other part of the article) to an appropriate section. What did I do wrong? Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

It also means that when somebody is changing a stable version, that editor has to give evidence of the new figures and a reasoning why there is doubt. The Banner talk 20:31, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I did not place new figures. I just changed some figures without sources to "N/A" that means "Not available". I think you do not disagree with me on this anymore. On the other questions of mine, why don't you respond? Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:36, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Map

I have no issue with the current longstanding map, though I do find @Karadakli230:'s map visually better. He has also shown willingness to adjust it and I can confirm it now aligns with the last Macedonian census data. Beyond that, I presume he used data typically used on articles on Wikipedia (i.e. census figures), but he should confirm which sources were used as basis for this map. --Local hero ^talk 20:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

+1 --InNeed95 (talk) 18:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

@The Banner: / @Karadakli230: / @Deji Olajide1999: You guys should better discuss your thoughts, about possible changes to the map used, here and not by continues reverting. --InNeed95 (talk) 18:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

:The new map looks better. I have no objection either but it could use a source or two. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 18:42, 3 October 2021 (UTC) blocked sock of User:Mercurius1

To be honest, without clear info about the sources I suggest to remove the map altogether. But the old map looks clearer to me, with a better representation of the country borders and without the question marks that the new map has. The Banner talk 19:16, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

::The current map apparently gives a source under the "summary" section. [1] Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC) blocked sock of User:Mercurius1

the current map of the article has been partially updated with info from here:[2]. @Karadakli230: you removed this map (WP:JDL?). Nevertheless, as per WP:OR you need to provide a source for the claims that you made in your edit summaries. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 09:31, 20 October 2021 (UTC) blocked sock of User:Mercurius1

You have added a ridiculous source which says that Korca Region was majority Greek. Please refrain from POV-pushing and get consensus before making controversial and fringe edits. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

::Ridiculous source says who? The Greek minority in Albania numbers between 200.000-300.000 [3] [4] and according to the map by Le Monde Diplomatique (i.e [5]) they inhabit the Korca region as well. Also: WP:AOBF. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 11:12, 20 October 2021 (UTC) blocked sock of User:Mercurius1

There is no reason to remove the consensus version. The specific map was created and agreed by a number of Albanian editors that time and there was full agreement on that. Le Monde Diplomatique is a perfect source in the field. If there are some minor visual issues with the consensus map it would be an easy job for me to fix them. Alexikoua (talk) 11:15, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

The source used in the map about a Greek majority in regions of Korca is clearly dubious and a fringe view. I disagree with readding such a pov-pushing map. Adding a map with percentages is POV at its core. The map should just display what Greater Albania is. Ahmet Q. (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@Ahmet: it appears you didn't read the description (not event the map's legend): it states that Albanians constitute 50%-80%, that's called Albanian majority. Not to mention that plenty of Albanian editors agreed on this version. It's the second time you blindly revert me that way. That's not cool.Alexikoua (talk) 22:02, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

This map is misplaced. The article is about the notion of "Greater Albania" which "seeks to unify the lands that many Albanians consider to be their homeland". So it's about a concept that some Albanians have. Neither modern administrative units, nor modern and foreign estimates of ethnic composition in these units are internal to the Albanian concept. So regardless of the map's accuracy, it cannot be placed in such a prominent position when it does not reflect what the article is about, but a (subjectively) refined one. It could fit into a section focusing on how the concept of "Greater Albania" is perceived by others living in these areas or by neighboring countries, but not at the top. If any map should be at the top it should be the one depicting the borders requested by the Vlore government of 1913, as that is where the whole idea originated. Çerçok (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

What does "misplaced" mean here? Actually its the perfect place for a map (map of Greater Albania in an article that bears the same name). It's the best we have so far not to mention its was generally agreed by everyone (though created and edited by Albanian editors entirely). Modern administrative units are not bad to be seen, but removing by pretending it shows Greek majority areas it constitutes wp:DISRUPTION.Alexikoua (talk) 23:41, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

As I said I am not against including this map in the article, but it is misplaced within it. As it stands, it is the image does not reflect the concept, it shows something different. No Albanian ever conceptualized Greater Albania as the image depicts it. Once again, this could fit below, but not at the top. Çerçok (talk) 00:03, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@The Banner: I think that maps about demographics should be removed from the lede. They will generate POV disputes which don't make the article better.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I do not think the map has any significant influence on the rate of emotions and POV shown in this and related articles. The Banner talk 00:24, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I do not see why the current map is appropriate. It does not actually represent what is considered to be 'Greater Albania' in it's entirety, for starters, so the map is actually incorrect. Secondly, it would also make more sense to insert a map in the lede that refrains from utilising demographics as a whole. A map along the lines of this (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Albania.png) is more fitting. Botushali (talk) 00:39, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Greater Albania is intended to reflect the position of Albanians during the Albanian Vilayet; it does not presume the location of Albanians today, as several migrations and expulsions have happened since then. It is illogical to include the ethnic compositions of would-be Greater Albania, which in fact excludes a large portion of the territory claimed as Greater Albania. Excine (talk) 01:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

(unindent) Of course, the reason certain editors do not like the map is because it shows that Albanians are nowhere near a majority (in some cases there are hardly any) in many of the territories claimed as "Greater Albania". Khirurg (talk) 02:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Are irredentist projects justified when a population forms the majority? These narratives highlight why maps about demographics should be removed. They are instrumentalized and used to ask all the wrong questions. Wikipedia doesn't ask whether Albanian irredentism is "justified" and doesn't justify when Albanians are majority. The article should depict what Greater Albania is without justifying when it's good or bad - based on dubious map-painting.--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

As I previously indicated, there is no justification to create a map of "Greater Albania" with the provinces' current ethnic composition. Second, the map does not accurately represent Greater Albania, as territories such as Serbia's Sandzak and the region surrounding Nis are omitted. Thus, how is Greater Albania defined? It is irrational to include ethnic percentages in these districts, which do not adequately represent Greater Albania, which encompasses all four Ottoman Vilayets. There is no question that the Greater Albania concept refers to the area where the Albanians presumably lived in the late nineteenth century, not the twenty-first century. Excine (talk) 02:51, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

If the demographics are assessed in accordance with the underlying notion of Greater Albania (the four vilayets mentioned by @Excine:), the demographic situation of the vilayets in question would be considerably different - I'm sure certain editors would take issue with that notion, too. This is precisely why demographic information should be fully omitted from the lede map in the first place. Botushali (talk) 03:10, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

"Comment": If we're going to utilize demographics, it's more appropriate to display the demographics of the vilayets in the Ottoman Empire in the nineteenth century, as it is where the concept of 'Greater Albania' started - the union of Albanian-populated vilayets. The demographics in that situation would be different from those on this map - which is wrong in the first place due to the boundaries it uses - but that is obviously not acceptable to the community. As such, it is only reasonable to exclude demographics entirely from the lede map." Excine (talk) 02:59, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

In other words, you don't want readers to know what the ethnic demographics are in the areas claimed as Greater Albania. And while it may have started in the 19th century, the idea of Greater Albania is very much alive today. Khirurg (talk) 03:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

This map can easily be included into another section of the article, I have no problem with that. Albeit it should be updated to reflect the current borders of 'Greater Albania.' It most certainly should not be the lede map. Excine (talk) 03:15, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Problem is, there is no map of Greater Albania. I don't even think there is agreement on what "Greater Albania" is. If such a map existed, the two could be one under another in the lede. Khirurg (talk) 03:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

To be sure, [6] a map of Greater Albania does exist. This is the most common response to the question, "What is Greater Albania?" Greater Albania was a political idea whose purpose was to unify all Albanians residing within the borders of the four Albanian-inhabited vilayets. Certain minorities resided there as well, but the map is intended to illustrate the concept. However, the ethnic composition should be re-positioned elsewhere. The concept is still alive and well among many nationalists today, although the map itself is a 19th-century idea. As such, it should be appropriate to include at the very least ethnographic maps from the initial era of where the idea began. For the present day ethnic composition of a would-be Greater Albania, perhaps a totally new subsection should be created, complete with a demographic map of Greater Albania in the 19th century with the appropriate provinces and borders, which I would not object to. The issue I have is that the map itself, is it does not adequately depict the borders; it is not what people think of as Greater Albania. Excine (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Question for the verifiability of the map. Was Corfu ever inhabited by Albanians (Corfu was never even part of the Ottoman Empire)? I am asking because it is part of the aforementioned irredentist map and for sure that cannot be backed by any sources if you make an attempt to expand the article with the demographics section. Othon I (talk) 07:51, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Depends on who you’re asking - there’s people who will agree on the mainland definition excluding Corfu, because that would accurately represent the four vilayets, but there are plenty of people who do indeed include Corfu. However, because the article is based on the traditional idea, a map of that same mainland excluding Corfu would be more realistic as a lede map. Botushali (talk) 10:18, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Even if you guys proceed with the demographics section, Corfu should be excluded. Otherwise the whole foundation "story" for this irredentist concept does not make sense. Corfu was never part of the villayets, had minimal to nonexistent Albanian presence and of course was not even part of the Ottoman empire. Probably the people designed supporting this were not well-informed Othon I (talk) 10:46, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I agreed with you; the map I linked does not put Corfu within the borders of a proposed Greater Albania. At the very least, I believe that the map I linked depicts what an average Albanian would consider regarding Greater Albania; all other maps depicting Greater Albania as larger, including additional lands to the south and north, are recent additions by nationalists, and are not part of the rather original concept, for example [7] Such a map like this, is more of a recent change of borders. Excine (talk) 11:48, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I am not disagreeing with you. I do not think that Corfu needs to be included in either the lede map (no demographics) or the demographic maps - it is not within the vilayets. Just as how including Corfu in the lede map is wrong, so is keeping the current, incorrect map in general (in either the lede or demographics section). Neither conform to the 4-vilayet basis. Additionally, it is not a “foundation story”, the four vilayets are the actual historic origin of the concept of Greater Albania. Botushali (talk) 11:06, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

It's actually astonishing that two alternative maps presented above are without citation in commons and -even worse- they present an even maximalist version of Gr.Al.. I see no reason why we should avoid demographics based on RS.Alexikoua (talk) 16:26, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Alexikoua: We don't need a demographic map to describe what Greater Albania is. We don't need any map which is disputed and outdated. And we don't need a map which doesn't depict G. Albania. @Othon I: Agreed. I don't know why some online maps depict Corfu within Albanian territory. --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:34, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

• 

  Greater Albania is the proposal of 4 "Albanian vilayets" of the League of Prizren as agreed after the Albanian revolt of 1912

  • This map depicts what Greater Albania. No other questions and narratives emerge from this map. The current map doesn't depict G. Albania. If all editors can agree to change the current one with this map, the dispute can be resolved. Or I can file a discussion at RfC - and all editors will have to argue why a disputed map which doesn't depict G. Albania should be kept or removed from the lede. Thank you. --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:34, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

• • • I am in agreement with the use of this map for the lede. Botushali (talk) 00:11, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
      • That's just one version of GA, perhaps the most extreme, and it is rather outdated. The map currently used in the article is much more up to date. Khirurg (talk) 04:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
        • The map that @Maleschreiber: has given above is the original "version" of Greater Albania. It is the very basis of the whole concept, however you view it personally (extreme or not) does not matter since it is the foundation of the topic at hand. The map that is currently used is incorrect in it's entirety - not "much more up to date" at all - and needs to be removed and replaced. Botushali (talk) 06:16, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
• I moved the ethnicity map next to the language one. The two maps show demographics aspects, not Greater Albania. Furthermore, they show demographics as they are now, not as they where when the concept of Greater Albania was born. If the demographics maps have issues, they should be fixed. However, IMO demographics maps do not harm the article. I will also add the map posted above by Maleschreiber. It is indeed the most widely used, and the "original" version of Greater Albania. It is not "outdated" and not the largest one: there are maps of Greater Albania that include Nish and central Montenegro, Corfu up to the Arvanite settlements in southern Greece. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:28, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I added it. The article with a lead that had a demographics map and not a territory map, as is the practice everywhere on Wikipedia with countries, proposed countries and irredentist concepts, deserved a POV tag. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:36, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Now that I saw them more carefully, the two demographics maps are both ethnicity ones. The article for years has had two maps that show different versions of Albanian presence in the region. One, of course, should be removed. I leave it up to you which one is that. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Population table

Why is the entire population of Montenegro and Macedonia included in the table? It clearly says under territory that it’s southern Montenegro and western Macedonia, yet the full countries population is included. Only the small region in Serbia is correctly listed. 100.4.105.230 (talk) 08:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)