Talk:Grooming gang moral panic in the United Kingdom/Archive 1

Archive 1

Requested move 16 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Muslim grooming gangs in the United Kingdom (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 12:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

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South Asian Muslim grooming gang panic → Ethnicity and grooming gangs in the United Kingdom – As discussed above, "South Asian" is not commonly used by sources. I don't think "moral panic" is unanimous/sourced enough to meet WP:NPOVTITLE. Taking a cue from this BBC article on the topic: "Grooming gangs and ethnicity: What does the evidence say?" Jonathan Deamer (talk) 19:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for starting this. Whilst I think the title is a step in the right direction, I am not sure it captures the religious element that has been reported to take place across numerous cases. I understand the controversy surrounding the term 'Asian grooming gangs' - on one end, the perception that it is a 'dog whistle' term that will only stoke community tensions and on the other by Sikh and Hindu groups who feel that it paints their entire demographic in a negative light when perpetrators are mostly neither Sikh or Hindu. However, one reason why the phenomenon has gained so much coverage is due to the perception that there is an over-representation of a certain demographic in the crime, and I do not believe the proposed title of 'Ethnicity and grooming gangs in the United Kingdom' accurately captures this. The 'moral panic' claim has also not received widespread adoption so I would not be in favour of it being included in a page title.

Multiple inquiries, investigations and victims have publicly spoken out that fears of linking race and religion to grooming gangs have prevented public discourse on this topic and I hope that we can learn from their failures. Therefore, I propose the title of 'Muslim grooming gangs in the United Kingdom'. This would capture the phenomenon of the over-representation with most of the Asian perpetrators involved in the numerous cases hailing from Pakistan as well as other Muslim-majority countries such as Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, Bangladesh etc., and is supported by the Bhatti-Sinclair and Sutcliffe study.

If the title is renamed as so, a new section can be created to stress that Muslim organisations in the United Kingdom have spoken out against the practice. Kioj156 (talk) 12:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Muslim grooming gangs in the United Kingdom per above. The term "South Asian" isn't commonly used in the UK, where "Asian" usually only means people from South Asia. Asian grooming gangs in the United Kingdom would be okay, as most of them have been dominated by Asians, but it is true that the vast majority of the perpetrators have been Muslims, so omitting the religion would be odd and also could be construed as offensive to other Asians (although still entirely accurate). Asian Muslim grooming gangs in the United Kingdom would also be okay, but the vast majority of Muslims in the UK are Asian so it's pretty unnecessary. The proposed title is pretty meaningless. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Of course, simple Grooming gangs in the United Kingdom may be even better. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:30, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

    I also wondered that about Grooming gangs in the United Kingdom, but think that's served by Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom#Group based child sexual exploitation and would change the scope of the article a bit. Jonathan Deamer (talk) 14:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

    But that section is almost entirely about Asian Muslim grooming gangs just like this article is. I'm not sure why it would change the scope of the article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Support any of the suggestions so far as better than current. The current title is a rather egregious framing that doesn't accurately reflect either the coverage in RS or, for that matter, the reality in the UK. Both the grooming gangs and the panic that they triggered are real phenomena, though one is clearly a consequence of the other, and it doesn't make sense to frame the article just in terms of the reaction. Woshiwaiguoren (talk) 06:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Support for Muslim grooming gangs in the United Kingdom or simply Grooming gangs in the United Kingdom, the ''panic'' part is an egregious POV issue. Killuminator (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revert by M.Bitton

My edit was reverted, even though I provided an inline quotation from the sources that are being misrepresented in the opening statement. The user claimed there is an RFC on this matter, but the only RFC I see pertains to a title change, not the article body. First of all, why mention South Asia and Pakistan separately, and then 'Muslim' again separately? Is Pakistan not in South Asia? Or is 'Muslim' a geographic region? This is nonsense. We cannot vilify the entire South Asian community when all the sources specifically refer to 'Muslims' or 'Pakistanis' in the context of South Asians. No other South Asian community has even been "alleged." You may choose to identify as South Asian, Pakistani, or Muslim as per your convenience, but there is no rule that justifies changing the info in sources for the sake of political correctness. Other communities exist too. I was polite enough to mention 'predominantly Pakistani,'. There is no other nationality indicated.I hope responsible admins will look into this. I do not engage in edit wars, especially when I know I am going to be the target of a mob revert attack. I hope responsible editors and admins will take note of what's going on in here. But considering the support above whitewashing rfc is getting, i understand if my request is ignored. DangalOh (talk) 15:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

the way this works is even if its pakistanis in particular , everyone will get lumped in.

much of the sourcing talks about asian and south asian and often muslim and pakistani after that fact. the conflation is a key part of the panic. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Sources are extremely specific, and that’s why I used the term 'South Asian Muslims.' South Asia is rarely used without context. No other South Asian community has ever been accused of grooming gangs. The POV of the editors in favor of removing 'Muslim' and keeping only 'South Asian' is — 'In this scenario, I will identify as a South Asian, neither Pakistani nor Muslim. And if I’m going down, I’m taking everyone from South Asia down with me. Either it’s for the entire South Asian community or for no one.' And this isn’t a one-off issue where this logic has been applied. Hopeless Wikipedia. As I said, if there is any rational human admin left on Wikipedia, they will see through this. Otherwise, what’s one more whitewashed article on Wikipedia? Not like it will be anything unique. I dont wish to argue anymore or explain one thing again and again. I am not getting paid for acting as a representative of non pakistani south asian community. I’m out of here. Happy editing. DangalOh (talk) 18:06, 7 September 2024 (UTC)