Talk:Groove metal/Archive 1

Archive 1

Please only contribute to discussion. This article is start-class, and we need to write more on the history of Groove Metal. Please, no wikibullying, no threats of AFD, no bickering of what you personally think is a genre or not (no POV please) Just facts please. Thanks.

To do: More on history (album releases, etc), possibly more on musical traits.

Please don't add unknown or unsigned artists to 'key artists.'

Origins

Shouldnt the origins of groove metal be listed as thrash metal, doom metal, and hardcore? And by hardcore, I mean the non-breakdown variety. I know its POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.253.21 (talk) 18:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Too many "sub Genres" in Heavy Metal music.

It is the view and feeling of many fans of metal music that some people who are often referred to as "genre junkies" make far too many sub genres within Heavy Metal music. The slightest little tweek or new idea and the genre junkies are on wikipedia trying to argue their case.

Machine head, Rob Zombie are more inline with groups like Marilyn Manson, Ministry & God flesh which incorperates more modern rythms (grooves as some idiot might call them) and they also use samples and other electronic equipment. Groove Metal is a silly sounding title. Its better to group the newer era bands like Rob Zombie / Machine Head with Ministry & God flesh based on they both use similar multiple influences combined with a large use of thrash style riffs coupled with many samples. They are all bred out of the same era of Heavy Metal and incorperate many similar sounds and ideas and influences from the earlier styles of Heavy Metal music. - simple. Why have so many titles for similar styles all born from the same era doing similar things?

Musically on albums like Cowboys from Hell Pantera are mostly thrash alongside other thrash bands of its day like Sacred Reich, Overkill, Exorder and Anthrax. thrash is defined mostly by its rythms and the style of chugging guitar sound. - simple

Speed and Power metal are both styles of Heavy Metal. They are hardly "sub-genres". Power metal doesn't really focused on the music but rather the vocal style i.e. Helloween, Manowar and is just Heavy Metal musically. Speed Metal is solely on the speed of the riffs and musically is Heavy Metal. Helloween can be both power metal and speed metal yet musically they can sound just like groups such as Iron Maiden -simple

Sepultura were always mostly thrash / death - scizophrenia / beneath the remains / arise. Thats what they were called when they came out so why try to re-invent it?

Grindcore, Black Metal, Goth Metal and similar styles are grown out of the rise of death metal and should be grouped with death metal as to reduce the many genres. Vocally and musically they are all tend to be very similar. They are what some metal fans now group together as extreme metals (or just "black metals" as they are mostly focused on evil and satanism).

Uhm, they are all different musical styles, not just subcultures or themes.72.83.127.139 (talk) 05:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

not real?

"There is no real thing such as Groove Metal." Yeah, removed that. Whoever put that there obviously doesn't know a thing or two about metal subgenres. You say that they're thrash? Show me the similarites to other thrash bands! There are few similarities. Lamb of God, Devildriver and Pantera have like no thrash in them. Just Groove. Groove metal usually is slower paced unlike the uber speedy thrash metal tends to be. Groove doesn't necesarrily have aggressive guitars, which is pretty much what DEFINES thrash. And a usually different drumming style. Groove drummers usually do short quick bursts of beats from their pedal thingies instead of just fast-paced crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.37.102 (talk) 00:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. But don't call thrash metal crap. That's something narrow-minded, ultra conservative poseurs do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.5.155.191 (talk) 15:37, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Not dissing thrash or anything, I often use the term "crap" to state complex things that I don't mind elaborating about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.37.102 (talk) 00:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.39.172 (talk)

Half-Thrash

Is this a commonly used term? I don't think so, I've never heard of it. And is there any artist or critic that would call any music half-...? half-jazz, half-rock?

And a google search doesn't convince me...

Results 1 - 100 of about 601 for Half-Thrash. (0.20 seconds)
Results 1 - 100 of about 109,000 for neo-thrash. (0.17 seconds)
Results 1 - 100 of about 24,200 for post-thrash. (0.21 seconds)

Half-Thrash (601) is not even 1% of total search result

and 3 bands(!) are tagged half-thrash at Last.fm compared to +/-30 for neo and +/- 30 for post-thrash.
http://www.last.fm/tag/half-thrash
http://www.last.fm/tag/post-thrash
http://www.last.fm/tag/neo-thrash

I don't think it's a term that should be mentioned here.

So Pasajero, don't edit it back please, unless you have good resources.

Emmaneul 19:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Metallum a very popular heavy metal database uses the term. Note how the page meets the notability requirements. The term more than merits inclusion. --Pasajero 21:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I know metal archives. You can't proove anything by poiting to metal archives. I don't know how a controversial site like MA can be a good source. MA use terms very loosely and never define genres. MA don't state anywhere that Half-Thrash is the same as Groove Metal and they use Half-Thrash very sparingly.

The bands named in this Groove Metal wiki that are Half-Thrash according to MA:

-Machine Head (also Groove Metal according to MA)

-Pantera (also Groove Metal according to MA)

-Prong (Not Groove Metal according to MA )

If it would be the same genre as Groove Metal than why would MA use both Groove Metal and Half-Thrash for 1 band and sometimes don't?

Please give me a source where Half-thrash is defined...

I still don't think it is a commonly used term and should be deleted.. (no definition and almost no use of it on the internet... It doesn't seem like a proper term for Groove Metal to me)

Emmaneul 00:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Metal-archives returns 645 results for groove metal, 68 for post-thrash, and 59 for half-thrash. That's a good 7%. The heavy metal project uses MA as a reference especially for categorizing bands so it would be odd if we labeled a band as part half-thrash yet at no point define it on Wikipedia. Maybe we can mention that the term is the least used of all, but it is still used. We can't deny that. --Pasajero 00:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Groove metal?

Wow, a first. I have never, ever, heard this term before! I'm strongly questioning its very existence. "Half-thrash"? What? While the bands sure are groovy, I doubt the fact that this term is widely used. Is this section really necessary? Shandolad 12:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes bands like Pantera, White Zombie, and others have labelled themselves as "groove metal" there is a noted difference, unlike other so-called genres of music (such as the -core genres which all sound pretty much the same to me, which to me should all fall under one labelling, "hardcore-punk" or "hardcore-metal") - groove has a distinctive slower tempo, synchopated chord patterns, major use of the blues minor scale for rythm guitar riffs, etc. Most Metal genres can be very distinctive; e.g. Thrash Metal: Fast tempo, semi-shouted singing Death Metal: Fast tempo, low grunts Black Metal: Usually high pitched singing Grindcore (the only one of the cores which is different to me) -instanely fast guitar riffs with very fast beats Doom Metal - Very slow heavy metal (also known as "Goth Metal") then you have Groove metal - which is somewhere distinctly in the middle tempo wise, simular to classic metal's tempo but much heavier in sound by contrast. DarrelClemmons

I must admit I had never heard of Groove Metal until just when I was surfing the Wiki. What about the last few Anthrax albums with John Bush? I guess they would be Groove Metal then. Not Thrash which is what Anthrax were in the Belladonna days, but Groove would fit their later work. What do you guys think? JSL595 20:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually this is not the first time I've heard someone say this. Supposedly Overkill's and Annihilator's newer stuff is also groove (as opposed to thrash). I haven't added either of the bands since I am unfamiliar with their newer material. Metal-archives.com has Anthrax listed as speed/thrash/groove so I guess the classification would be valid. Check out some of the reviews for "We've Come For You All." Pasajero 18:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Any genre that includes both White Zombie, and... well, pretty much any other band listed here, must be incredibly vague. You'd think two bands in the same genre could tour together; however, a hypothetical white zombie / lamb of god tour, for example, would probably leave a lot of fans of both bands asking, "Why the hell are these two touring together? They play incredibly different music." 67.161.21.254 16:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It wouldn't be as strange as you'd think to hear White Zombie play with Lamb of God. LoG plays more melodic groove, whereas white zombie plays more hardcore influenced groove. I doubt fans would deem it too odd. I've seen very odd couplings before in tours. Trust me, it would be more suiting than you would think. -DarrelClemmons

Here's a statistic: Google search "groove metal" - 2,800,000 results; Google search "Pantera" - 12,600,000 results. Compare for example to "thrash metal" and "Slayer": 3,160,000 to 20,700,000 results. The ratio groove/Pantera is larger than trash/Slayer. So I would say groove metal is a legitimate genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Upsidown (talk • contribs) 20:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I first heard Phil Anselmo use the term in the early 90s. Seeing as how Pantera was hugely influential on it's peers and successors (not least of all because Dimebag was so much a guitarist's guitarist) I am not surprised the results tally in as they do. In fact, I would not be surprised if Pantera were the first citable source for the term. It's certainly used on their 1993 Vulgar Video. Actually Anselmo may have called it Power Groove, but the connotation is there. He was talking of a distinct branch of metal with a groove. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.196.32 (talk) 08:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, both comments. First comment, of course, it only makes sense that with the ratio you've shown that the term groove metal obviously is relevant. Second statement, I remember in interviews all of the guys from Pantera saying "Power Groove" - even the guys from Exhorder said it (I'm not sure which band cited it first, but that isn't the issue)-DarrelClemmons

Can we just delete this article? it seems kind of stupid, along with Southern Sludge Power Metal? Where did all these made up genres come from? Slayer are Heavy Metal, Sabbath are Heavy Metal, yeah they don't sound the same but who cares, nobody has ever said "So what kind of music are you in to?" "well Power Slop, bit of Grindhouse Metalcore, also Fire breathing Trivi-metal" what is the deal with all these random "sub" genres really? to me Soulfly are Machine Headare just "metal" Fear Factory are "Industrial", thats it. Jay794 (talk) 22:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope.74.226.157.119 (talk) 18:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey Lycantrophe, check on Fear Factorys talk page Jay794 (talk) 00:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Drowning Pool

What happened here, I thought this was a groove metal band, but instead their listed as nu metal..This draws concern, because even though they arrived in the spot light durring the nu metal boom, they do not use elements of nu metal, such as turn tables, hiphop/beat box/basslines, rapping vocal styles, ect. Instead they tend to fit the genre of traditional alt. metal, and groove metal.. 72.148.85.104 07:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Drowning Pool is rock not metal. Therefore they can't possibly be groove METAL. Pasajero 20:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Source it. Please. And incidentally, the old argumentum ad CAPSLOCK doesn't work. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 03:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree that drowning pool is groove, the lead singer was good friends with Dimebag Darrel, and they have covered pantera songs that I couldn't hear that it wasnt a classic DP song. there are many differences but that's too expect from two different bands. I'd say they are but nu-metal fits too as most nu takes it's inspiration from groove orionted bands such as sepultura, prong, pantera and such

What would define groove metal?

Well, for me, I'd have to say:

• 1. Mid tempo, blues-based riffs (sometimes dissonant riffs using not just blues scales but also the chromatic scale).
• 2. Hardcore-punk style shouted vocals.
• 3. Intelligent lyrics.

As far as tone of guitars: cutting out the midrange around 200 hz of the guitars while boosting highs and lows Groove metal usually has a thunderous presence... Less is more, I guess you could say, where as thrash metal, death metal and grind-core try to say it in a billion notes per second, groove metal tries to simplify it a bit.. kind of like doom, only not quite so drastic.. Doom is really slow tempo, a good example: Candlemass Epistle 81, right around 50 beats per minute. A standard Pantera song, howeveer... probably between 90 and 160 beats per minute. (Cemetary Gates is right at 140 beats per minute)

Thrash and Death metal do more of a "droning a single note" thing, where as groove changes notes in its melodies or chord patterns more often rather than droning as often (especially in break-down riffs) There are exceptions to the rule however.... There are bands who are considered mostly groove who have written thrash or death songs. good example of one that uses drone notes: Pantera Suicide Note Pt. 2... but at the end it has a couple of nice break down groove riffs.

Meshuggah

Now, I'm no expert, but I wouldn't call them groove metal. I mean, they are very hard to categorize, but wouldn't it make more sense to put them in the Thrash article instead?

They sure ain't thrash (even though they did have one release that was actually thrash). Most sites classify them under post-thrash which is the same thing as groove metal. Pasajero 02:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Contradictions Collapse and Destroy Erase Improve sound very thrashy. Chaosphere has some thrashiness but traces of groove are also in there. Nothing and Catch 33 are pure groove. Markendust

The article states that groove metal isn't very riff based, as compared to other genres of metal music. Meshuggah's music is very riff-based, and they don't have neither a clean bass sound (the bass is distorted to almost the same degree as the guitars) nor any bass fills. They're hard to categorize, but I wouldn't say the meet enough of the common traits of groove metal to be called such. Klumpfot 09:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

That's because they play post-thrash which is more riff-oriented than groove metal. Most of us use the terms interchangeably, but they have their differeces. Maybe that sentence should be changed. --Pasajero 01:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Groove metal?

The term "groove metal" is constructed many years after most of the bands and albums mentioned in the article formed/were released. Maybe it exist, maybe it doesn't. I don't agree with listing bands like Entombed and Sepultura in this category nor as creators of this genre; if it exists. If there is a genre called "groove metal" it would sound like Suicidal Tendencies newer albums or maybe even Primus.

I heard a couple of tracks from Chaos A.D. (Sepultura) for the first time a few days ago and it sounded like something old Machine Head would release. I would definately categorize it as groove metal. --Pasajero 14:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Pasajero, it is the other way around. Sepultura released Chaos A.D. in 1993, and Machine Head's debut Burn My Eyes came out one year later. Check your facts. Musicaindustrial (talk) 01:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Groove Metal as a genre is signifigant in Metal History

The history of heavy metal would not be complete without the formation of Groove Metal from the blended forms of minimalized thrash, death, blues, and hardcore. You can tell the style is distinct enough from thrash because of the sound. Several thrash metal bands eventually simply "evolved" into Groove Metal. You can tell a groove band by hearing the way they sound. The formula for minimalism is usually cutting away all the unnecessary. Groove Metal pretty much follows that formula, and usually saves complexities for the guitar solos themselves, whereas the rhythm is more prominant, solos aren't as long, and the rhythm guitar is usually slower than most other metal genres but not slow enough to be considered doom or sludge. Accentuation is put on beats in groove metal, even more than in thrash or death. Palm muted chords in groove metal are very percussive and more frequent than in thrash or death, even though thrash and death use palm muted chords a lot for punctuation, groove metal uses it for a "paragraph" for musical phrasing, the guitar usually following a percussive beat in itsself. (Listen to "A New Level" by Pantera, "The Impossibility of Reason" by Chimara, or "Dividian" by Machine Head to get an idea of what I'm talking about) This isn't always the formula, but most groove metal bands use some kind of formula akin to this. A "sustain or palm mute stop" phrasing, if you will. Dimebag called it synchopated beats because the guitar would be playing a complimentary beat with the drums, but it'd be different (See Primal Concrete Sledge for an example)

Interesting, although it also fails to produce any verifiable source grounding its arguments on empirical evidence. Musicaindustrial (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the verses in "Psycho Holiday" (Pantera) also follow that formula. --Pasajero 01:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

A term coined by one band, and applied only to that band by its fans does not a genre make, nor does it meet Notablity for Wikipedia.

See my comment in the section right below this. Nufy8 01:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

What the f..

Just tell me who in name of satan use this term? I've never seen this genre in any serious metal magazine or web page...it's just thrash... with this criterion then we'll be going to invent a genre for every band in the metal world... half thrash? puf,ridiculous....post thrash? maybe, but thrash after all....

Get real! Machine Head, Pantera, and so on bare little resemblance to thrash metal. Go learn a thing or two about thrash metal. The term is mainly used by thrashers and black metallers which I can tell from your reaction to the term that you are NEITHER. --Pasajero 16:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Here, here, here, and in the booklet to Pantera's compilation album, after a quick search. I'm sure there's more out there. Nufy8 16:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Metallum uses it heavily. Enter Machine Head or any of the bands listed below and you will see. You can also use the search function to look under genres. Markendust

Groove Metal is a signifigant enough change from its parent roots (Thrash, Death, Doom, Hardcore and Blues) to warrant a genre for itsself. Most Thrash bands usually used faster riffing throughout an entire song, same for Death. Groove however has slow breakdown beats for many a song, and usually follows a percussive minimalistic approach whereas thrash is usually more tonally complex, faster tempo etc. Also if you listen to the difference between Chaos A.D. (Sepultura) and their earlier work such as Arise, you'll hear a signifigant difference. Chaos AD and later is more percussive with guitar work than is Arise (although both are very good albums) and it shows their evolution from thrash to post thrash(groove) - almost all songs made by sepultura after chaos ad don't contain blazing thrash riffs anymore, its mostly beat driven guitar work, with the minimalistic approach we keep discussing (it still is good music, in my opinion, but thats POV). The difference is major. You can tell it. If you listen to early Slayer, early Testament, early Metallica, in the 85 - 92 period of heavy metal, then listen to peers such as Pantera, Zombie, Machine Head, you'll see a signifigant change. Especially compared side by side, its hard to classify something with such a moderate tempo (generally 60 to 150 beats per minute) as "thrash" when thrash back in the 80's up to the 90's had typical blast beat tempos around 200 beats per minute or higher, So yes, Half-Thrash, Neo-Thrash, Post-Thrash, or Groove Metal as we so colloquially call it, is a genre in and of itsself, like it or not, there is a signifigant shift in the 1985 through 1990's era of metal, possibly due to many things... (backlash to grunge, backlash to popular music, backlash to hairmetal and glam rock) Many elements from thrash are removed. So how can you possibly call it thrash? The technical style is different. You can't honestly say you can listen to Meshuggah and think its the same genre style as oldschool Megadeth, I know its comparing apples with oranges, but if you listen to Testament, Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer, all side by side (all their early albums) you can tell they are simular enough to be considered thrash, even though they are all different in their own stylings, they still have a simular musical phrasing. Fast as hell. Groove isn't all bells and whistles and going as fast as you possibly can 100% of the time. Its about building up to a breakdown beat (and thats mostly influenced by hardcore punk)

This is blatantly not a genre. "Groove Metal is a signifigant enough change from its parent roots (Thrash, Death, Doom, Hardcore and Blues) to warrant a genre for itsself." Well done, see here for the fact we dont allow coin terming here.

"Groove however has slow breakdown beats for many a song, and usually follows a percussive minimalistic approach whereas thrash is usually more tonally complex, faster tempo etc." Also see this article.

Also, as previously explained, coined-terms for one band do not make a genre. Most bands change genres over time, its called musical evoloution. That doesnt mean you can coin a term and use it to advertise a band on Wikipedia.

This article is a poor clone of the Thrashcore article, and as such will be put up for AFD shortly due to this regard.

You must have missed the sources I pointed out to you that contradict your statement that this subgenre is a coined-term for a single band. Read the third paragraph after the "What the f.." topic. And you can add this to that list, as well. Nufy8 16:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait a minute, since when is it only "one band" that coined the term? And since when is it an "advertisement?" where do you pull this from? Several bands call themselves by this term, several fanzines use this term, several websites use this term, several magazines use this term, so who are you, as one person, to say that "one band coined the term?" and who are you as a person to say what is allowed as a genre and what isn't? Obiviously, there are several magazines, several bands, and several fanzines and websites that go against your statement of it being only "one band" and "a coined term just off the cuff" so where are you comming from? Musical evolution DOES start new genres. Don't be a dolt. And also, its very different than the "Thrashcore" article. "poor clone"? what crack are you smoking? Perfect example of musical evolution: Black Sabbath started out as a blues band. Are they still a blues band? Is calling them "heavy metal" coining a term? PS- since when is Wikipedia censored? And who are you to want to censor people for making an article about an important movement in musical history?

here is proof that its wide spread around the world, not in just ONE spot, not just ONE person, and not just ONE band. THEY CALL THEMSELVES THIS GENRE. Obviously we all must be insane then, by this person's standard. Several people use this term, people I've never even heard of in Australia, half way around the world where I'm at on this planet. So don't tell me one person coined this phrase, don't tell me I'm "advertising my favorite bands" or whatever you think we're doing. All we're doing is making an article about a signifigant period in history for heavy metal. If you don't like it, we have plenty of proof that the genre IS a genre, and IS signifigant in history, and that WE didn't make the term up, and that SEVERAL bands call themselves this term. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. Being a wikipedia bully and saying "i'm going to bring it up for AFD" is just being a silly and arbitrary, you're trying to censor people and last I read wikipedia isn't censored. Its also not a soapbox. So if you want to debate about the existance or not of groove metal as a genre, debate it with the countless other people who use the term and call themselves that. Its not a competition on here. a few people here felt the need to write an article based upon a musical genre at a certain point in history. Thats it. The genre has historical signifigance, and as a genre deserves a place in history and in heavy metal articles just as much as death metal and thrash metal does. Honestly, who are you to say "this is not a genre?" Honestly, argue with the thousands upon thousands of others. I don't have time for people who are elitists or stubborn.

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=134 http://www.last.fm/tag/groove%20metal http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/groove%20metal http://www.shadesofdust.com/ http://www.devyce.com/ http://www.mrgig.com/performer/622 http://loscuro.musica.com.uy/xartists/?g=MzM= http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:--r0nXF3ma8J:www.live4metal.com/tourniquet.htm+Groove+Metal+bands&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=69 (interview with Ted Kirkpatrick of Tourniquet, March 2003, mentions "Groove Metal" in discussion of genres ) http://www.in-cyde.com/ (An Austrailian band whom I've never heard of before that call themselves groove metal) http://www.annecarlini.com/ex_interviews.php?id=638 (A band I've never heard of called Hostility, describes their own music as Groove Metal in the article interview)

By the way, some of the above link to artists websites, not to advertise them, but to show they call themselves that specific genre of music. (because evidently somebody must think one person made up the term or something? Which isn't the case.) Its not an ad (I haven't even heard of some of the bands on that list). Just proof that the words "groove metal" exist outside of this article. If anything type it into google and see what you come up with and stop trying to be a bully saying you're going to bring up for AFD. Thanks. DarrelClemmons

Most of those 'sources' are POV sites that are changed by its users, and most of them dont meet Wikipedia Standards of Notability. I didnt bother reading your whole complaint section, just your sources. All of which fail to be reputable.

You seem to be ignoring the sources actually cited in the article, which are clearly reputable. Nufy8 18:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Metallum is reputable, The Metal Observer is reputable. What are you talking about? Please follow wikipedia etiquette and sign your editsDarrelClemmons

I added references at the bottom of the page along with Pasajero's, this time with the actual links of the record company Road Runner records labelling some of their own artists as groove metal. Hopefully this will prove to be "reputable" enough for someone to stop complaining about sources. Its comming from actual record companies and music industry people. Not just some coined term one person made up. DarrelClemmons

Some more references

• http://www.eraseronline.com/styledisplay.php?Style=101
• http://www.antenna.nu/genre_des.php (look under neo-thrash at the bottom of the page)
• http://loscuro.musica.com.uy/xartists/?g=MzM=
• http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/artists/Exhorder/bio.aspx (Roadrunner Records' official Exhorder website. Describes them as groove metal)
• http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/artists/Sepultura/ (Roadrunner Records describes Sepultura as Groove Metal)
• http://www.korg.com/sbytes/article.asp?ArtistID=278 (Korg, a music accessory company describes Fear Factory as Groove Metal)

--Pasajero 01:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC) &DarrelClemmons

Post-thrash and groove metal, not 100% the same

I feel that someone should clear things up since there is much confusion about the terms. Post-thrash is very similar to groove metal, but with more thrash influence and is more riff-oriented. In other words it's groove metal that is borderline thrash, but not quite thrash. The only reason they are grouped together is because the difference between the two is not significant enough for each to have it's own article. Try giving the listed albums a spin to see if you notice the differences. Both genres nevertheless, groovy :)

post-thrash

• Exhorder - The Law
• Pantera - Cowboys from Hell
• Sepultura - Chaos A.D.

groove metal

• Machine Head - Burn My Eyes
• Pantera - Vulgar Display of Power
• Sepultura - Against

--Pasajero 10:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I kinda agree with this comment. I wouldn't even go as far as to say post-thrash on the first 3 albums. Just a different side to thrash like a smaller sub-genre / style within thrash. Groups like Exhorder (plus the many other thrash bands who have done the same similar style on certain albums (Overkill, Artillery, Sacred Reich etc etc) weren't trying to do anything other than thrash. I can remember it was just a natural direction some thrash songs went in. When the groove metal (& industrial) comes in it is definetely post thrash as it is bordering on becoming Nu-metal (or whatever it is called). Metalosaurus (talk) 20:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

removal

I removed this text

It is a popular belief that nu metal spawned from this genre of metal, due to both genres utilizing strong usage of down-tuned power chords, having mainstream popularity and similar lyrical subject matter. However, groove metal never reached the commercial heights nu metal achieved and is generally more respected by groups of heavy metal fans instead of nu metal.

it just seemed like a way for somebody to say that he liked groove and that nobody should say that Nu metal is inspired by groove 'cause he hates nu metal because it's commercial or something like that. All in all it's an attempt to weasel in a POV and there is never any clarification on who these "some" who believe these things and which "groups of heavy metal fans" he refers to, sounds like original (and misguiding?) research to me.

The first sentence of the paragraph is perfectly fine. It's just stating the similarities between both genres and how groove metal influenced nu metal. The second sentence is debatable though. --Pasajero 16:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Addition of scale stylings

I found it somewhat necessary to add this: "Many artists using such scales as blues minor/blues pentatonic, natural minor, and chromatic scale for heavier based riffs, accentuating riffs usually with heavily palm muted power chords, while soloing scales vary from artist to artist, although most have used the blues minor." Because of all my history of listening to metal, the "flowing" riffs of Groove Metal tend to be influenced by blues minor, and its not meant as "selective wording" - its just self-evident, as most bands (Machine Head, Pantera, Exhorder, Pissing Razors, White Zombie, and most of the artists on the key artists list) Tend to use Blues Minor a LOT for their rhythm guitar work, as a matter of fact, for MOST of their rhythm guitar work. Its not meant as selective phrasing, just as self evident fact, even though many groove metal artists incorporate their own stylings into it. (Source for this research is from several Guitar World articles, off the top of my head Dimebag Darrell's Riffer Maddness articles come to mind, for whomever needed this cited) User:DarrelClemmons

Groove metal is an internet fad

I have heard the term "Groove Metal" used loosely in connection with some of the bands mentioned on the article, specifically with reference to Pantera and Machine Head, but generally this is a non-existant phrase. Can anyone provide a source from the period when "Groove Metal" was apparently at it's height that actually uses the term? I've been looking for non-internet sources such as magazines from the late 80s/early 90s that actually use the term. I have had no luck finding any such term in use, even when reading reviews for Machine Head and Pantera albums from Kerrang! in the early 90s.

There may be articles on the internet of people who use this term. But just because it is a term referenced on the internet, does it make it a valid genre?

Also, I've talked to so many people in the metal community about the term, and when I bring it up, most people have never even heard of it, despite knowing the bands called "groove metal" very well. I think this is a term that may have been used loosely in the late 80s/early 90s to describe the emerging metal sound, but never really took off as a name for the style of music, and is being used now by genre enthusiasts who are unwilling to let bands be called Metal without a prefix.

There may be bands who openly call themselves groove metal. Consider this: a rock band wants to stand out from all the other rock bands on the planet, so they call their style dogpoobumface. Does this make dogpoobumface a valid genre, especially considering that it could also be classified as rock? Just because a small number of people use the term groove metal, doesn't mean it's valid.

And for all you who think that it isn't a small number of people using the term, consider how many millions of albums "groove metal" bands like White Zombie, Pantera, Machine Head, etc have collectively sold, and how many people use the term. It's not even 1%.

Furthermore, imagine if Machine Head had released Burn My Eyes and told people it was a punk album. This wouldn't make it punk. It's metal. Not thrash metal. Not neo-thrash metal. Not half-trash metal. Not Post-thrash metal. Just metal.

I state that this term is an internet fad used by people who feel a need to over-classify music. --Cannonlab 15:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that there is no such thing as "just metal." --Pasajero 09:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Pasajero, the problem isn't that there is no such thing as "just metal", the problem is that people like you feel the need to over-classify music, thus inventing false genres. Metal does exist without a prefix. Accept it.--Cannonlab

Metal without prefix does exist of course. But it is a synonym/abbreviation to Heavy Metal. Heavy Metal is the name for all Heavy Metal subgenres - just Heavy metal music. Thrash Metal, Death Metal, Black Metal are all Heavy Metal, or just Metal. So of course Machine Head is Metal, cause it is also Heavy Metal. But it is not the Classical Heavy Metal, so it has to be some Heavy Metal (Metal) subgenre. It seems to be Groove Metal

.--Lycantrophe 18:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

are you kidding me?

groove-metal? my god man. you people that just love shuffling music into genres are wasting your time, helping to kill music as we know it. just stick to ROCK, METAL, POP, etc.

Absolutely.--Cannonlab

For me this is the same as if you say: "Metal? you people that just love shuffling arts into categories are wasting your time, helping to kill Metal as we know it. Just stick to music, painting, sculpture, design etc."--Lycantrophe 18:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What? Pardon me for a moment, while I collect the proper words.... Alright.. Let me get this strait... if you go to buy a car... do you go to the dealership and say, "HEY! I WANT A CAR!" ...the dealer looks at you and says, "sure, what are you looking for? We have SUVs, trucks, compacts, sportscars/muscle cars, and hybr..." but then, you cut the dealer off, and tell him he's "a fucking idiot, for classifying cars into groups and he's helping to kill the car industry as we know it", storm off the lot in a tantrum, and leave the dealer scratching his head at what idiocy he just witnessed? My God man. Think about it. Sure, metal is metal. But like classifying different types of cars, there are different types of metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DarrelClemmons (talk • contribs) 13:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

people who don't find the articles for themselves in magazines must be monkies

I saw a couple months back a guitar one magazine I believe which mentions the top 100 metal bands of all time and several bands were described as "Power Groove"

- so shut the fuck up being crybabies already. P.S. as was said earlier above - if you look and read, (which I know must be hard for some) some of the record labels (namely Roadrunner) has labeled the bands groove metal as well. Not proof enough of a genre to be in use by a record company? What the hell else do you want?

- Ok, first up, which issue of Guitar One mentions "Power Groove"? Secondly, the Roadrunner sources listed use the term groove metal loosely and with very little authority. It is almost as if someone searched the Roadrunner website looking for anything that has the word groove in it. If Groove metal is as real as some of you say it is, why are there only really weak uses of it? Why don't you see the term on Machine Heads website? Or Fear Factorys? Or Sepulturas? Or any of the other major bands that some people on wikipedia are calling groove metal? The term is being used erroneously! Cannonlab 17:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

No, cannonlab, its not being used erroneously, thats where you are mistaken. Its used as a way to define the certain specific sound of bands. The bands on this list certainly don't fit the thrash or death context. The bands on this list certainly don't meet the nu metal context. Most bands on this list don't meet the metalcore context. If you were to sit and listen and actually use your ear to hear the different styles between genres - all the bands on this list of major contributors actually have this distinctive groove sound. Its not erroneous. It is used by Roadrunner Records. Exhorder reffered to themselves as groove, I mean come on man, what the hell, do these bands websites basically have to have in big bold letters taking up the whole screen in a super high resolution format (like 1500 x 2900) using a size 800 font, have to have an intro that says "WE ARE A GROOVE METAL BAND!!!" and say it 1,000 times on their website for it to be verifiable? Come on man, be realistic, since when to Metallica, Slayer etc. say thrash 1,000 times on their website? They may say it in passing, but who reffers to themselves like that over and over and over? People focus on themselves too much to say what genre they are every sentence they say. Live with it man. What friends you talk to may not know the genre, but hey, not every metalhead knows every genre man, face it, I know a guy who listens to death metal who has never even heard of power metal, I know a guy who listens to black metal who has never heard of Naglfar! So I mean, even if they are slightly familiar, or even heavily familiar with the music, does it mean they know what the hell they're talking about? What makes ANYONE an expert at ANYTHING? Who is to say is what or is not what? I mean seriously? Who makes METAL itsself a genre? Why not just call it MUSIC? And why not go a step further than that and turn us into the citizens of the book of 1984 and further limit our language down and call music MSC. Why not censor EVERYTHING? I mean come on, who's to say really? Groove Metal is a genre, deal with it. Stop trying to censor it. Its been a genre since the late 80's - Early 90's. Get used to it.DarrelClemmons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.152.147.92 (talk) 17:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Very nice said. But do you know why all the people just donˈt know Groove Metal? How often do you hear a Groove Metal song in an avarage rock/metal radio or see a videoclip in TV in 2007 compared to other heavy metal subgenres? Groove Metal is just not a mainstream genre. It is not so attractive as Nu Metal or extreme as Black Metal.--Lycantrophe 19:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Whoa!

There's a lot of bands here who just don't belong under the "groove metal" moniker. Some of them are:

• Fear Factory: they're primarily an Industrial Metal band, with roots in the Death Metal/Grindcore scene. They also had a brush with nu metal (i.e., Obsolete). Yes, FF were eventually influenced by Pantera and Sepultura, but those groups aren't the musical pillars of their sound.
• Helmet: what??? They're unclassifiable, period. And people call them "heavy metal", in my opinion, out of pure sloth - Helmet is closer to The Swans and Killing Joke than Iron Maiden. Even the metal bands they admit liking - Napalm Death - aren't the typical examples of the genre.
• Sepultura: yes, Chaos A.D. might be termed "groove metal", but Roots (1996)? That's actually one of the first nu metal records ever, along with the Deftones' debut and Korn's first two.
• Soulfly: if this band's ouvre is a direct descendent of Sepultura's Roots phase, than they're nu metal.
• White Zombie: Astro Creep: 2000? Industrial Metal.

Musicaindustrial (talk) 22:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I actually to an extent agree with Sepultura's Roots album being experimental and.... well... probably the first venture into "nu-metal" - if not at least being very influential to it... but same thing happened with Machine Head and Fear Factory...

Helmet is hard to classify I agree but I do think they had some Industrial/Groove stuff...but... they are hard to classify

But yeah... some of the stuff I disagree with you on. White Zombie could be classified as Industrial, Groove, and Alternative Metal.DarrelClemmons (talk) 07:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Screw this!

Why was most of the musical traits taken off? I'm putting them back! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Pepin (talk • contribs) 16:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

WTF!

Holy fucks! this is one of the hypoexistential genres i've ever heard or seen..do you just not have an any more sources to back up, than just a www.metal archives.com??? If anything Groove metal is DEFINITELY power metaaaaaaaaaaal!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.6.74 (talk) 14:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Honestly said, Groove metal and power metal are the biggest opposits in metalLykantrop ^(Talk) 22:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Power Metal is different than Groove Metal dude. "Power Groove" Metal doesn't mean "Power" Metal... I mean, Helloween is Power Metal... Iced Earth is Power/Thrash Metal, DragonForce is Power/Thrash Metal, Dio is Power Metal... then you got bands like Pantera, Machine Head, Sepultura, White Zombie, Lamb of God, Pissing Razors, Chimaira, Gojira, A.N.I.M.A.L., and Fear Factory (to name a few) that are all clearly Groove Metal. - DarrelClemmons

Post Thrash vs Groove metal

I think that post thrash and groove metal are not exactly the same. IMHO we should label as post thrash those bands that have their roots in thrash metal but are not properly thrash, maybe because they also have a lot of other influences from other styles, while groove metal is a subgenre of thrash (different, but always thrash in its deepest core). So, post thrash bands could be ones like Strapping Young Lad or Meshuggah (not all the people agree the term "thrash metal" for them, and maybe they're right: bands like those are very particular and original, a mix of other styles that often gives difficulties for labelling... but still has got a connection with thrash), and groove metal bands could be ones like Machine Head.

Furthermore, even "post" rock and "post" metal are not properly the same of rock and metal in their conventional, common sense, but they still have links with those genre in their mix of styles, influences, tendencies and other gigs.

Groove metal (or groove thrash metal) can be thought as a subgenre, like, in example, melodic death metal, where At the Gates are certainly different from Obituary, Death or Morbid Angel, but this doesn't mean that they are not similar, and they are always a death-based band.

I hope my thoughts could be interesting and not only something of boring and useless. :)

While to some extent I agree, I disagree on Post Thrash being that much different than Groove. Post Thrash isn't that far off from Groove Metal. I happen to think of "Post Thrash" as "Proto-Groove" - Groove Metal before it fully formed, as it was maturing. Post Thrash sounds like both thrash and groove, so to me, in my opinion, is the link between the two, as bands evolved in sound. Some bands kept more of a thrashier stance, and slightly higher tempos than others, where as others kept a slower, sludgier influence - just my two cents. - DarrelClemmons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.157.84.206 (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Post-thrash metal is, simply put, what came after thrash metal. Post-thrash bands are 'modern' bands highly influenced by traditional thrash metal, and play thrash metal in a contemporary way.

Groove metal bands are also "highly influenced by traditional thrash metal, and play thrash metal in a contemporary way" but groove metal has something extra. Groove metal is meant to "groove", so many groove metal riffs are relatively slow, syncopated and low, unlike straight ahead thrash metal riffs.

In a way, groove metal is post-thrash focussing on groovy rhythms and riffs. A groove metal band is a post-thrash band, but a post-thrash band is not a groove metal band per se. I'd say The Haunted is a typical post-thrash band (fast, aggressive thrash but contemporary), Pantera is clearly thrash influenced, groovy, not focussed on speed and modern sounding: groove metal.

Post-thrash and groove metal often go hand in hand. Bands often play both styles, and the terms are used interchangeably, as synonym although there is a slight difference.

The biggest problem is that there is no source making a good distinction between the two. It's only original research. Kameejl ^(Talk) 12:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

requesting inclusion for Scum of the Earth

They are a major artist and to me seem very simular to White Zombie's old stuff, They are in the vein of Groove Metal with some industrial/alternative overtones (like Zombie) I vote we add Scum of the Earth to the key artists list. They are a signed act and have been around for a little while they aren't just some band that popped up out of nowhere, they are guys who used to play for White Zombie and Rob Zombie's solo stuff. It sounds pretty groovy to me. -DarrelClemmons

Is Unearth Groove Metal?

I don't know, I saw that it was added by a fly-by anonymous user recently. I checked them out and they sounded kind of like a mix somewhere between Groove, Metalcore AND Thrash depending on what song you hear... I don't know this is a gray zone for this one I think they're a blend of genres... but I think they lean more towards Metalcore? I heard some of their stuff and it has solos, but some of it doesn't... so I don't know (e.g. Zombie Autopilot for example) Who knows - its up to you guys to decide -DarrelClemmons

No, but I can see why you would think that. They are a little too fast to be Groove Metal. Their later stuff has a lot of Thrash Metal in it but not Groove Metal. -Snook666 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snook666 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

First Thrash Metal albums with "groove"-oriented songs

• "Albums such as Exhorder's Slaughter in the Vatican, Pantera's Cowboys from Hell, Sepultura's Arise, and Artillery's We Are the Dead first incorporated groove-based rhythms into thrash metal".

There's some noteworthy omissions on that list... Megadeth's Rust in Peace (1990), for example, has a "groove"-oriented song: "Lucretia" (Track #6). There's also the case of Anthax'es collaboration with Public Enemy ("Bring the Noise"), featured on the Attack of the Killer B's (1991) album. And what about Metallica's black album? "Through the Never" has some "groove" quality on it, if I remember correctly.

Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur with the Black Album being possibly up for debate on being a post-thrash album. I believe the Black Album was post-thrash. It definately wasn't a RTL, MOP, or AJFA, thats for sure, which those 3 albums were pure thrash/progressive thrash, but TBA was post-thrash in my opinion. But they didn't really stick with it for long as they kind of went in a loopy ass direction and kind of lost theirselves. So as far as being a key artist in post-thrash/groove? eh, thats up for debate, as in my personal opinion I kind of view it as a band would have to stick to the genre at least a decade to be considered a major contributor, but Metallica only had one post-thrash album (IMO)... Megadeth had some post thrash elements as did Anthrax but nobody is debating that.DarrelClemmons (talk) 05:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"Similar stylings and offshoots"

I think this section would become more interesting if someone would add the differences between "groove metal" two other metal subgenres: nu metal and Death 'n' Roll.

Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What is Mastodon doing here?

According to their MySpace page [1], their music style is "Metal/Hardcore/Progressive". No "groove metal".

Also, if you make a Google search for Mastodon and associated labels, you come up with the following results:

• "mastodon" + "groove" + "metal" = 19.800 hits
• "mastodon" + "math" + "metal" = 20.6000
• "mastodon" + "post-hardcore" = 41.400
• "mastodon" + "sludge" + "metal" = 87.100
• "mastodon" + "progressive" + "metal" = 170.000 hits
• "mastodon" + "metalcore" = 214.000 hits

So, not only "groove metal" comes off last, but its search hits amount to less than 10% than the list's top contender - "metalcore".

So, dear Wikipedians, please remove Mastodon from the groove metal page, will you?

Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Myspace isn't a reliable source.Inhumer (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Myspace doesn't have a listing for certain genres. Heck my band is Groove metal but we can't list ourselves as groove metal because myspace is gay. So we just put it under our description.

Maybe because it is a minor genre... If a genre at all, according to some people. Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes bands just take "metalcore" as their label even though they truely aren't metalcore at all. Mastodon is groove metal, not metalcore.DarrelClemmons (talk) 05:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"Mastodon is groove metal, not metalcore". 214.000 Goggle search hits openly contradict that. Also, there's a POV issue right there. Show me some reputable sources - let's say three, at least - that describe Mastodon as a "groove metal" band, detailing specific characteristics of their style that prove they belong on this page.

A side note: DarrelClemmons, have you ever thought that your personal liking for this "groove metal" metagenre has made blind to any reasonable against what you personally think is "groove metal" or not? Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

have you thought, possibly, Musicaindustrial, before you edit, delete, and make changes to things that may prove to be controversial amongst many to consult a vote?

Many people would disagree with you about Mastodon. I'm not alone. Hey though I'm not bashing and I'm not trying to say it in a biased way man I just thing removing things hurdy gurdy from the article is jumping the gun - some of that you added I agree with, some of what you took away I disagreed with... I mean, I think some of us contributors to this article would preffer a vote if you're going to decide to remove key artists... I think that'd be more of a civil way to do things.

Please don't personally attack me though, as I wasn't attacking you or trying to sound biased I was just using my ear... They really don't sound metalcore to me man.... I think metalcore is more like Killswitch Engage/Zao/Unearth type stuff... Mastodon sounds nothing like that... they probably got lumped into "metalcore" just like chimaira and lamb of god did by the confused masses (the two genres are related... but different, not just my opinion, but several people's opinion as well...)

Take votes next time instead of just removing something and see what passes or doesn't pass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DarrelClemmons (talk • contribs) 07:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Mastodon is DEFINATLEY Groove Metal! -Snook666 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snook666 (talk • contribs) 02:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Helmet doesn't belong here either...

According to Helmet's MySpace page, their music style is "Rock/Alternative/Metal". Again, no "groove metal". Their MySpace site also states that they were "forefathers of the post-hardcore/punk genre", that the "HELMET sound sparked a new brand of metal" and that the band made "important connections with indie-rock and metal", but nowhere I see "groove metal" mentioned. Not once [2]!

Also, if you make a Google search for Helmet and associated labels, you come up with the following results:

• "helmet" + "groove" + "metal" = 31.800 hits
• "helmet" + "alternative" + "metal" = 41.400
• "helmet" + "post" + "hardcore" = 72.6000
• "helmet" + "noise" + "rock" = 758.000 hits

Again, "groove metal" comes in last, with only 4% of noise rock's search hits!

Also, the source [3] used to identify Helmet as a "groove metal" band fails to meet Wikipedia's notability criteria. Why?

• For one, as previously mentioned, it's only one source. "Multiple sources are generally preferred", according to Wikipedia's notability criteria.

• Second, who is this "Jonny EOL" anyway? (The guy behind the "EOL-Audio v8" site). Is he a recognized music journalist? Did he ever write articles and reviews for major Rock / Metal mags such as Kerrang!, Metal Hammer, Spin, Decibel or Revolver? Did he ever submit his material for mainstream publications such as the New York Times?

Or is he yet another case of the internet "lone wolf", whose self-published reviews and articles are plain POV cases? I personally think the latter is the case.

• Some truly notable sources either don't call Helmet "groove metal" at all or, when the label is mentioned, they fail to define it. Rolling Stone's entry on Helmet, for example, calls them "noise-rockers" [4]. The All Music Guide considers them either "Alternative Metal" or "Post-Hardcore" [5]. The last (but not least) source, one frequently cited source on this discussion page - Rockdetector - primarily classifies Helmet as "Alternative Rock". Rockdetector also includes "Alternative Metal" and "Groove Metal" as alternate subgenres, but it fails to: (a) define both stylistically and (b) don't provide any specific criteria for telling them apart [6].

In all in all, Helmet doesn't belong here. They belong on the Noise Rock page, although being on the Alternative Metal would be somewhat acceptable.

Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Like I said above. Inhumer (talk) 18:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Groove metal should be a section under thrash metal

This so called term "Groove metal" is just a bulls**t title for Thrash Metal songs that sound "Groovy". It isn't really a genre in it own right. It really only discribes certain songs off certain albums. Another rubbish term made by genre junkies.

Thrash since its early days has always had a comical side to it as part of its rebellion against mainstream metal / rock and also due to its punk influences. This has reflected in its live performances and often Thrash bands would do a "groovy" song or a fun songs (often covers) the same way they have often done ballads (we don't need a term for ballad metal do we?). Anthrax have done numerous songs like "friggin in the riggin" and the obvious "I'm the man" (ok they took it too far with "bring the noise"), Exodus did "Toxic Waltz", Megadeth have done "these boots were made for walking" and "Anarchy in the UK", Nuclear Assault did "Happy Days" and later "Funky noise", Xentrix did "Ghost Busters", Sacred Reich did "Surf Nicaragua" and followed later with "the American way", Testament did "Souls of Black", Athrophy did "violent by nature"..... The list goes on.

You're definately wrong here man. I wish I could underline wrong.

Groove isn't about silly sense of humor songs either, I don't know where that came from... but.. Groove is however a derivative of thrash, and lots of groove metal bands were once thrash, but not all bands that are groove were /thrash/ - let me clarify for ya:

The bands named below have always been groove and in my opinion never true thrash:

Chimaira,, Lamb of God, ANIMAL,

I mean the list goes on and on... some bands never really had the thrash element that defined the thrash genre, however were very inspired by it. (especially the new wave of groove metal happening currently)

But as for today's standards man... I really think Groove is too different to be considered the same as classical/traditional thrash. I mean if I were to put on say... Master of Puppets by Metallica, and then put on Resurrection by Chimaira, yeah you hear the influence of MOP IN Chimaira, but at the same time the approach is so different, and the difference isn't vague either by any means... its larrrrge man. Give classical thrash a whirl and then listen to some groove dude... its totally a different ball game. And I'm not trying to say it to sound biased but really you should listen to the two and write down on a notepad the differences you hear. It will add up on you quickly man... seriously. It is a genre of its own. I'm not saying it to bash this or that or try to show favoritism to anything here. Just listen to the music and you'll hear the differences... So I vote no removal of article/relocation to thrash.

And this is to all the bashers of this article:

hey, if death and black metal deserve an article why doesn't groove? They are both derivatives of thrash as well. Yes they are their own genre, I am not bashing. I'm just saying I do not understand every basher that comes along that tries to knock the genre. Its like traditional metalheads have mixed views on it, and while its not as looked down on as nu-metal, some metalheads almost want to "disown" it as it is seen as a direct link to nu metal, and some want to re-classify it (remove groove from metal and evidently have just an umbrella term) to take away the link it had from nu-metal to I guess erase nu-metal from history (who knows???? I'm not a nu metal fanatic so I don't know?

Also, just so you know, this has ALREADY LONG AGO been discussed on the thrash metal discussion, and mass majority voted to keep this article as most viewed it as historically important yet different enough from thrash to have its own page. Please do research before you make statements like that again. Thanks.DarrelClemmons (talk) 07:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I kinda see where your coming from. I feel that the term "groove" is trying to single out thrash bands from being thrash. All the albums mentioned (Exhorder's Slaughter in the Vatican, Pantera's Cowboys from Hell',[3] Sepultura's Arise, and Artillery's We Are the Dead first incorporated groove-based rhythms into thrash metal. However, it wasn't until later albums like Exhorder's The Law, Pantera's Vulgar Display of Power, Sepultura's Chaos A.D., White Zombie's La Sexorcisto: Devil Music, Vol. 1, and Machine Head's Burn My Eyes that groove metal took its true form.)Many are still just thrash albums. The songs that are being "bannered" under this "groove" title isn't fair as they are still just typical thrash songs like I said but just not as serious as say MOP by Metallica. The song cowboys from hell is just a typical thrash song (so what if its got a "groove" to it) just like Exodus 'Toxic Waltz' (which could equally be said to have a "groove" to it. What about the bass line at the start of Peace sells by Megadeth? is that groove?

Pantera's Vulgar display of power is no more groove than cowboys from hell. I not defending White Zombie or Machine Head as they are different. Its as though some death metal sounding groups can be "groove" as can thrash bands as can "alternative/experimental/nu bullshit metal" etc. Is Skid Row's 'Piece of me' also "groove"? Or G'n'R's 'Welcome to the jungle'? as they have a kinda groove to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx-0VJvQTZM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV2xVvJddxY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHijgQ1UVw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhEhdOTir8Q Are they all that different? Surely its all still thrash. Who needs label junkies? (And for Heavy Metal song that grooves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qcreOv4_c8 compared to a Pantera or Artillery song. No one categorised songs like Skid Row's)

Well honestly I'm not a label junkie man. But I do see a difference between Post-Thrash/Groove Metal from Classical Thrash man. I don't think you really took in what I meant from my above comment.

Look, let me elaborate... don't call "bullshit" on this just read it, take it in, soak it up, and stop fighting it so much... Metal's history began with such bands as Iron Butterfly, The Spiders, T-Rex, Kiss, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepplin, (early) Aerosmith etc. Around the same time punk was born. It grew from there. Bands such as Black Sabbath who took the darker approach inspired traditional and doom metal... some traditional metal bands took a faster approach, and developed speed metal. Around the time of speed metal, hardcore punk was being born. Hardcore Punk + Speed Metal = Thrash Metal Thrash Metal + even more Hardcore Punk = Crossover Crossover + time to inspire a new wave of bands = Groove Metal or Metalcore depending on whether the band takes a more metal aesthetic or a more punk one.

I don't know man its like all you guys that have issues with the term don't even read the article (especially for its historical purposes) for all intents and purposes, its like you just see the word groove and your eyes turn red and your blood pressure rises... why? Let it be man, stop trying to call bullshit - its been cited already, let it go. Too many sources site the term "Power Groove" just let it go stop trying to argue about it. Please stop trying to erase history.DarrelClemmons (talk) 05:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

DarrelClemmons, I want to point out some inconsistencies on your arguments... And please, these are not meant to offend in any way.

• T-Rex plays glam rock, not hard rock. No relation to metal.
• Punk wasn't born around the time of hard rock. The first punk rock record - Ramones - came out in early 1976, while Led Zeppelin were releasing records since 1969.
• What are you calling "traditional metal"? NWOBHM?
• Actually, Hardcore punk came to be before Thrash metal. The first Thrash records - Slayer's Show No Mercy and Metallica's Kill 'Em All, both released in 1983 - came out later than the first Hardcore full-length debuts. Here are some examples:
  • Dead Kennedys: Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables (1980)
  • Black Flag: Damaged (1981)
  • Discharge: Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing (1982)
  • GBH: City Baby Attacked By Rats (1982)

Early Thrash is basically NWOBHM meets Hardcore punk - in other words, sped-up British metal.

• Yes, "Power Groove" is gets mentioned a lot when Pantera is brought up, but what about other bands such as Sepultura? I have their official biography [7] and "groove metal" isn't mentioned on the book.

And let me repeat: these remarks are not meant to offend you. I just want to a concensus to be reached. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually I cited a usage by Sepultura on one of their websites somewhere on this talk page. I don't feel like hunting for it but its somewhere on here. I believe it was on a biography page, ran by the record company, if I'm not mistaken. That to me is source enough. DarrelClemmons (talk) 19:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit, here it is, roadrunner records refference to groove metal on sepultura

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/artists/Sepultura/bio.aspx DarrelClemmons (talk) 22:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

In addition to this I still say this new "groove" title should be split between "Groove style of thrash" ie Pantera if you really want to genre them different from mainstreal thrash and a different title for experimental alternative groups like white zombie and machine head. As for softer sounding bands that aren't thrash then they are groove heavy metal or something, but to make a complete new genre from bands that are blatently a type of thrash band is wrong.

Too many genre junkies in metal music! I can understand styles like power metal, speed metal, doom metal as a discriptive term but to me these are styles or characteristics and not seperate genres. Its like classic Helloween sound very much like Iron Maiden yet genre junkies try and seperate genre them as "speed metal" and Maiden as "Heavy Metal". Speed Metal like Helloween is just a faster style of basic Heavy Metal. Megadeth used to call themselves speed metal, but they were also listed as one of the four main thrash bands. Speed metal is a characteristic or style and not a genre. These "Groove Metal" bands are just branch off thrash bands. Not every Pantera song sound like "Groove" and some thrash bands may do an album full of mainstream thrash with one or two "groove" styled songs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 10:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't get where you draw your distinction. You're basically saying thrash bands did "fun songs" or whatever - but you fail to draw the distinction between certain bands that their entire albums were essentially groove metal.

Ever hear Burn My Eyes by Machine Head? Ever heard any of the old Vio-lence material? Thats a good starting point. Vio-lence is traditional thrash, Machine Head's initial album was pure groove. Not just 2 songs on the album. Moreover, your classification of Pantera doesn't sit well with me. Ever hear TGSTK?(The Great Southern Trendkill?) - one of Pantera's most underrated albums IMO, I can't seem to find a "thrash" song on there man. At all. As a matter of fact, a few songs just have a few "peppering" of thrash influence here or there (Hell's Wrath for example) - See, where I think you fail to make the distinction is you don't hear the more overtly hardcore influence. Sure, Thrash had adopted hardcore as an influence from the start, but didn't have the same structuring as hardcore did. Groove adopts much more of the hardcore aspect while not shying away from its metal roots (solos, technicality, virtuosity, etc) - for example, many, if not most, pure groove metal bands tend to use "breakdown" riffs, as opposed to a traditionalist thrash riff (which I've not heard any traditional thrash bands use breakdown riffs), for example, an intro riff in thrash may be a very intrequite structured melody layered over top of other harmonies... whereas in groove, a lot of the time, a breakdown or hook riff is just "the main riff" - or sometimes used for verse/chorus structure (instead of using it in a PUNK aspect [which would in a more traditional hardcore punk sense using breakdown riffs in place of solos]), groove metal typically uses a styling of "breakdown" or "hooks" for the verse/chorus structure, although using a lot of thrash technicality, but moreso for soloing as opposed to rhythmic guitar. Am I making any sense? In other words, in modern groove, thrash is still peppered in there, along with hardcore, but the way its structured is unique to its own right. Many bands seem to follow this simularity of structuring within this genre. I also would like to point out the sludge movement's influence over groove as well. If you hear songs like "This Love" by Pantera, or "Death of Me" by Gojira, or even songs by Chimaira, such as "Power Trip" you can hear a sludge influence. This Love's heavy outro part takes the earlier breakdown and slows it down to a crawl. Death of Me's outro riff uses destinct start/stop dynamics, and is peppered with both thrash/sludge influence but is clearly groove. Power Trip is minimalistic, a dynamic aspect of groove metal, but yet still contains a solo, the chorus riff is the "hook" riff I'm speaking of. You can very easily sit down, and compare, if you're an audiophile, and listen to this, say, vs. Reign in Blood by Slayer, or Testament's old stuff... its just too different to be the same thing. DarrelClemmons (talk) 00:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are more sources. Please check them out

Citation for the hardcore influence on groove metal:

http://exhorder.tripod.com/lookagain.html

Jay Ceravolo:"You obviously have a big Slayer influence. Can you see yourselves slowing down and/or becoming socially conscious like they did?"

Exhorder:"The Slayer infuence isn't as big as the hardcore influence, actually. We were into hardcore because out singer and drummer like it alot. We were into the Dead Kennedys and stuff like that. Kyle sings and phrases things really fast. People think he gets it from Tom Araya, but he actually gets it from the D.K.'s and Henry Rollins and stuff. Now, we are socially conscious, but I don't think that we'd bring it into our music. That's for the politicians We'd rather talk about the fucked up things. I mean, we dwell with the fuckin shit anyway."

(the above interview is with Look Again Zine #4, released in 1991)

There are tons of others out there, Phil Anselmo's interviews speak of it so many times its almost too many to count...

Also, here is the official pantera website citing the term "Power Groove" http://www.officialpantera.com/

"After being turned down “twenty-eight times by every major label on the face of the earth,” an Atco Records A&R rep named Mark Ross saw the band when Hurricane Hugo stranded him in Texas. The long-sought record deal finally arrived, and with it, Pantera’s “official” 1990 debut, titled Cowboys From Hell. Co-produced by the band and Terry Date (Max Norman turned the project down in favor of Lynch Mob), Cowboys From Hell took Pantera’s evolution to the next level. Darrell’s chugging, jagged guitars, Vinnie’s machine-gun, darting drums, and Philip’s collection of harsh screams, clenched-fist roars, and eerie melodies, all fused together into a sound they called “power groove.”

Some of the magazines and zines you'll have to look in fanzines/magazines and shit that dates way back for sources but the Pantera one above is a good citation, so there is a citation from Roadrunner Records & Sepultura, a few citations from Exhorder, from Pantera, and several several others, but those 4 especially I would say are the most important ones.74.226.157.119 (talk) 18:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thrash has always been influenced by hardcore full stop. So whats new? Groove is a style of Thrash Metal. hence me saying it should be side headed under thrash. Power groove refers to the power metal style vocals. "Jagged , & machine-gun, darting drums" to me sounds like thrash, especially the Chugging guitar bit.

Thrash metal features a number of fast and rapid tempos, low-register, quick, complex guitar riffs, and high-register guitar solos. Thrash rhythm guitar playing is characterized by palm muting and staccato used with a heavily distorted tone and tightly controlled riffs to create a "chugging" sound. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrash_metal

Death metal is different as death metal has a more gloomier sound and singing style that stands out to that of thrash. Many new "Black metal", "Gothic metal" & doom death bands would do good being side genred under death metal as they are basically the same thing only with different styles and influences. Lets be honest Venom didn't intend to create a new genre with their album 'black metal' as the title just meant they were evil / satanic, hence black metal. Musically they were bordering NWOBHM and thrash. They sound nothing like these newer death metal influenced "black metal" bands from Northern Europe.

So, you're saying that Lacuna Coil (a gothic metal band) should also be filed under death metal? Are you really sure about that? Because if you went to a death metal gig and screamed "Lacuna Coil is death metal!" on the top of your lungs, you would be beaten to a bloody pulp... or worse. Musicaindustrial (talk) 17:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I said many bands, not all. Paradise lost was called doom-death which in reality branched off from the death metal culture. Venom is now called black metal even though black metal used to associate to any satanic referenced band like Venom, Slayer, Sodom etc. Venom used to be classed as NWOBHM or Thrash. How does Venom sound the same as Immortal? They sound as close as Iron Maiden and Metallica.

Good points throughout, although I slightly disagree with the last three sentences.

If we consider that Venom were the de facto creators of extreme metal, almost every underground metal band that came after them - Anathema, Mayhem, Morbid Angel or even early Metallica, for example - would end up sounding like Venom. I'll explain that later.

Regarding the classing of Venom into NWOBHM or Thrash... Yes, Venom came to be in that late 1970s / early 1980s metal phase, but the only NWOBHM that might have been close to them, soundwise, were Motörhead, largely because:

• Both bands used a distorted bass guitar sound;
• Both favored "rough" vocal deliveries;
• And both of their drummers (Abbadon and Phil "Philthy Animal" Taylor) were keen on fast tempos and double bass drumming.

Even considering those commonalities, Venom and Motörhead had huge differences. One was Venom's lyrics, which dealt primarily with satanism, occultism, etc. The other was the very different playing styles of Mantas and "Fast" Eddie Clark. You see, the latter was basically a classic rock guitar player i.e. lots of pentatonic, Blues-based riffs, extended guitar solos filled with double stops, etc. Jeffrey Dunn/Mantas solo's, on the other hand, favored fast double picking, tapping and Floyd Rose whammy bar techniques, which put him in league with other 1980's guitar players and not the 1970s "school" that Eddie Clark belongs to. Also, Mantas created a lot of chromatic riffs, which practically don't exist in the Motörhead canon. Eddie Clark would never have written the verse riffs of "Black Metal" (the song), for example - they're too fast, too chromatic.

And regarding the Metallica and Iron Maiden comparison... Kill 'Em All had some of Iron Maiden's influence on it, don't you think? There's even a song - I don't remember which - that quotes those double-guitar, classically-inspired harmonized riffs common in early Maiden...

Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree with you here Musicaindustrial. Its like these guys above want to remove any classification of metal whatsoever. This is basically my same arguement. In the 90's many thrash bands took a different appproach than classical thrash bands did, and took a big influence from the crossover scene. Its true, and sourceable for several of the bands. Even Sepultura had some influence by hardcore man.

(I know you want to validate every statement on this article, but at least thats commendable, at least you're not an a$$hole like mehplep and bring it up for AfD, so thanks musicaindustrial for trying to clean up stuff) but at the same time, your above statement is true. Black metal isn't Death. Same goes with thrash, man. I mean a lot of the bands that are groove wouldn't really fit in with stuff like old school Anthrax or Metallica, etc. Groove is more minimalistic due to its hardcore influences being more distinctive than thrashs' hardcore influence (am I making sense?) e.g. thrash really doesn't contain breakdown riffs... but you find that a lot in groove metal. And this "so called" groove metal was around before nu-metal and metalcore (by a few years) so how would one explain the link? Groove metal is the missing link its the only way to explain it. And anyone who says any of the artists on the key artists (if it is sourced as groove) says it isn't, without sources (at least) are all blatantly POV as this genre has been sourced. Anyway thanks for your addition in that Musicaindustrial, you provided a good counterpoint to the anonymous poster. oh yeah and please do sign your post, Mr. Anonymous.DarrelClemmons (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The origins of thrash metal are generally traced to the late 1970s and early 1980s, when a number of bands began incorporating the sound of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal ,[2] creating a new genre and developing into a separate movement from punk rock and hardcore. This genre is much more aggressive compared to its relative, speed metal. There is often significant crossover from one metal category to another, and some bands use musical influences from non-metal genres, including classical music and jazz. - I'm sure groove falls within this boundary

Like I said "too many Genre junkies" ruining metal and building barriers within its structure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 12:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Genre junkies? Man you're strait up Point Of View. Do you not realise that what you're saying is 1000% point of view and that we have sources to at least validate it?DarrelClemmons (talk) 19:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Who here thinks mehplep's AfD was totally uncalled for?

I know I certainly do, and I thought it was completely rude, uncalled for, point of view (BLATANTLY) can he site sources that say it IS NOT a genre? We've cited sources that say IT IS. I think it was completely wrong to nominate this article for AfD because this is an important genre. Please, someone post your thoughts (not just POV people who want to argue incessantly that it isn't a genre. At least we have sources to back it up as a genre man)DarrelClemmons (talk) 19:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with you - that was vandalism. Musicaindustrial (talk) 22:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Also - why were the key artists and sources removed from the article? Someone is trying to sabotage this page in bad faith. Please put the key artists and sources back up somebody. Thanks.DarrelClemmons (talk) 19:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yet Another Source, in print

New Wave of American Heavy Metal, by Garry, Sharpe-Young, in print. In focus here is the historical prevalence to neo-thrash/post-thrash/groove metal - and the book links the ties between hardcore, crossover, post-thrash/groove, nu metal, and metalcore. A very important citation. Links here: http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=44955 http://books.google.com/books?id=uIIf03bGyAAC&dq=new+wave+of+american+heavy+metal+garry+%22sharpe+young%22&pg=PP1&ots=ZyEO_pWx5N&sig=hkRxHsuukkkkuaDtwHznGLSqmPg&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=New+Wave+of+American+Heavy+Metal,+Garry+Sharpe-Young&btnG=Google+Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail please remove AfD now, as I see it is entirely from bad faith, point of view, and just blatantly from spite. 74.226.157.119 (talk) 20:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Good contribution. DarrelClemmons (talk) 22:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Not a seperate genre but a style

yer Groove (metal) is a style but not a seperate genre. like speed metal & power metal are not technically genres in their own right as it can be either heavy metal or they can be thrash metal.

Helloween used to sound just like Iron Maiden, yet Megadeth who used to call themselves "speed metal" on their t-shirts are also one of the big 4 of thrash. Slayer are speed metal. It just means fast riffing. Pantera on their cowboys from hell are equally thrash as they are power metal. As for being called "groove" on this album I would not agree. Nor is Sepultura on Arise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 12:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

That is all just original research we have reliable sources to back things up here. Also, don't remove talk page discussions, it's considered disruptive. You may want to read the talk page guidelines. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 12:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr. 82.34.227.166 (since you don't sign your posts, may I call you that?) Anyway, while in one sense I can kind of feel what your infliction is on "genre junkies" - being that many people "build barriers" within specific genres (e.g. black metal heads having their own cliques, thrash metal heads having their own cliques, death metal heads having their own cliques etc. etc.) yes I see your concern here but at the same time you're kind of misinformed as well. Its not trying to form walls between genres man. Not at all. We're not trying to box in anything or limit anything. Simply put: Metal begets metal. Genres inspire genres. If it wasn't for - say - folk music, country music, and blues, we wouldn't have metal today. Why? Simply put, metal is a form of "popular music." By that I don't mean "pop/glam" music. I don't speak from that sense. I speak from modernized minimalistic music that roots from the late 1800's to now. It spawned from blues, which spawned rock, which spawned hard rock, which spawned both metal and punk, and both metal and punk diversified and created their own styles. And man I hate to say it but every band, every metal musician falls into certain musical "trappings" - by that I mean they all have a niche, and usually can be paired up and compared to contemporaries like them, because people inspire people man. Its just how life works.

Now when its tied in like that, yes, its hard to swallow, but over the past say - I don't know - 200 years of music, you can see what I'm talking about. And furthermore, to complicate your fallacy in your argument it all basically stems from MUSIC itself. So, with your above arguments, could you not claim "whats the need for genres? its all music!" I mean come on man. Why label things metal? Why not just call it music? Why not just take away any kind of niches and trappings and just call everything that makes noise or sound what it is? Music? I mean that seems to be the formula you've put together. Thats simply not how consensus works. Most humans feel the need to identify, classify, sub-group, and organize. Why? Hell, I don't know, maybe because of higher reasoning. But my point is this, you'll have to deal with and swallow the fact that Groove Metal is a genre. Because it is, and has been cited. And, also, as a warning, if you keep deleting posts in discussion contributors may report you to an administrator because it is disruptive and very, very rude. And, as always, I'm not trying to deride you, usurp you, or lambaste you, I'm just tired of all the arguing. Thanks. Also I would like to point out, "speed metal" is not a form of thrash, you got it backwards - if anything thrash metal is a form of speed metal & hardcore punk... Folk -> Blues -> Rock 'n Roll -> Hard Rock -> (Traditional) Heavy Metal, Punk (later on punk begets several diverse sub-genres, like hardcore punk) Traditional Heavy Metal -> Speed Metal, Power Metal, Doom Metal Speed Metal + Hardcore Punk -> Thrash Metal So, in the early 80's you had traditional, speed, thrash, power, and doom. From thrash spawned 3 sub-genres, Black, Death and Groove. Chronologically speaking, as far as sub-genres of Thrash go, I would say Black Metal was first. Venom inspired it, and it took off. For anyone to say "Black Metal falls into a category of "Death Metal" as you have, clearly states how misinformed you are. Black Metal came before Death Metal. In the mid 80's you had Slayer inspiring bands with extreme thrash, many called Slayer a death metal band but that is false they were always just a very dark Thrash band... although their influence on death metal is pretty obvious. You had bands like Death, Cannibal Corpse, Necrophagia, Nile, all kinds of stuff spawn from that movement. To deny it would be stupid. Then, you have the sub-genre thats the bullied on stepbrother of the rest: Groove Metal. Yeah you had bands comming up all over the place doing crossover thrash/hardcore and most kids at the time didn't know what the heck to call it, but as time progressed and it matured ... and in my opinion, had it not been for Groove Metal in the 90's, keeping metal somewhat "in the edge of the spotlight" as I'd like to say, not enough to be a sellout, more like, it stuck out like a sore thumb in contrast to what was already out there - so it kept interest going because it was different without even trying, it was extreme, but not usually enough to be offensive to the masses like say black or death metal were, however it still didn't get tons of radio airplay, just moreso than most of the others who went underground in the early 90's... then the mid/late 90's come, nu metal is born, and groove is pushed out of the way and pushed under the rug like its supposed to be forgotten about, just like thrash metal was....DarrelClemmons (talk) 21:31, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

get one thing straight. I deleted something I had written. Not somebody elses. After reading it back the next day I deleted it. Anyway, back to the subject. look in the dictionary and find "groove metal". It is not a recognised genre and is a label invented by a selection of fans. It seems by reading many discussions and views of many if not most fans that they do not recognise "groove metal" as a title. So what if Pantera use the term "power groove". You try to educate me on music. Heavy Metal IS a form of rock which originated from blues. Rock and blues are different but metal is just a form of rock (hard rock to be precise if it makes you feel better pinning more labels - hard rock literally mean HARD rock. It is a discriptive style and not a boundary genre). What you are doing is mass labelling within one specific type of music. It is a joke!!! No Black metal did not come before death metal. Venom wrote an album called black metal. But if you search white metal then you will understand the original meaning of "black metal". It meant satanic metal. It was not a genre - genre junkie! Infact, Venom isn't even like the newer black metal groups that sing in a vocal style originating from death metal. Venom were formed from the NWOBHM. It is people now trying to re-label them as a new genre. No I don't recal saying speed is a type of thrash. It is basically speeded up heavy metal. I understand labelling specific genres or major sub-genres. Heavy Metal (metal for short) is a complete movement within rock with hundreds of bands to it name. Speed metal just means it played fast. power metal was an invented term to discribe certain groups with a certian vocal style. Thrash was invented to discribe a certain style of group influenced on earlier styles of heavy metal but adding the energy of certain punk rock and started a new sound using a certain chugging riff style. notice the difference. Still Heavy Metal. From thrash came death metal which spawned doom, goth & black metal - they all basically got death metal and changed it using the influence of earlier music types. Yes. Industrial metal is a definetely a unique style / genre within Heavy Metal music. The obvious being the introduction of electronic sounds. If anything this was the next generation of Heavy Metal music. Using soul as an example. Soul developed from early soul which has its roots with rythm & blues and gospel singing. Like Metal developing from early Black Sabbath & Deep Purple. Soul then developed into different more refined modern styles. i.e. the Detroit sound (Motown was just a record label), the memphis style etc etc. Although different styles they were still just soul. Then came the electronic age and the next generation of soul came out. Artists like Rob Zombie come under the same generation as industrial bands. From this generation (industrial metal - and funk metal which thankfully died a death as was about as much funk as it was reggae) came Nu Metal which technically is a completely new developement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 (talk) 20:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Please report vandalism, defacing and hijacking to administrators

Vandalism will not be tolerated!!!!70.157.65.60 (talk) 12:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Overkill is a Groove Metal band

Well, at least MOST of their albums are from 1993 to 2005. Their recent release is more thrash based. Source : Decibel Magazine. http://www.decibelmagazine.com/reviews/jan2008/overkill.aspx?terms=Groove+Metal&searchtype=2&fragment=True 68.18.147.15 (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I kinda have to disagree. You a little right because i heard some Groove Metal in Horrorscope but they are mostly thrash i think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snook666 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe so, but they have a decent source there. Should definitely be included if other editors think they're notable enough for the article. Either way, should definitely be on Overkill's page. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I support that notion. It is a good citation, after all, Decibel Magazine is a pretty good Metal Magazine. Thanks for your support on that, guys. DarrelClemmons (talk) 02:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Musical Traits

I have edited the paragraph re: Korn's "Issues" and the Megadeth mention out of the article. It was very unprofessionally written, rambling and not the kind of material you'd be likely to read in an encyclopaedia, even a publicly edited internet based one. Amphetachronism (talk) 12:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I thought the last edit was quite a bit biased and sounded like one big advertisement for Korn, DevilDriver, and Megadeth. I mean, I have nothing against the previous editor but it seemed riddled with weasel words. DarrelClemmons (talk) 11:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Number of Bands on MA

Just thought I should point out that there are over 1300 bands on MA that are listed as "Groove". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.252.157 (talk) 22:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Metal Archives isn't a reliable source of information... Musicaindustrial (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Its better than wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.252.157 (talk • contribs) August 12, 2008

Most Groove metal can comes under either Industrial metal or just thrash Metal

So what if the songs have got a groovy rythm to it. This does not make it into a distinct category.

Rob Zombies uses electronic produced sounds etc and influences from electronic dance music just like indutrial groups that came out at the time. Keep them all together instead of trying to invent multiple silly titles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 (talk) 09:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You, sir, are a fucking moron. Pantera is not an "electronic dance music industrial band" - neither is Chimaira, neither is Exhorder, neither is Machine Head, neither is Lamb of God, neither is Five Finger Death Punch, none of those bands are "Just Thrash" as you say. "invent silly titles"??? You're just like all the other fucking morons who think its just bullshit. Look, we editors of this article haven't "invented" this term. It has been around since the late 80's, since the term was pretty much thrown around by Exhorder and Pantera. Then other bands picked up the term, like Machine Head frontman Rob Flynn threw it around, so did Sepultura (and Sepultura was so inspired by the movement in the states that they totally reinvented themselves with Chaos AD) So honestly, FUCK YOU. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.252.157 (talk • contribs) August 13, 2008

I'm not the one that the above message was adressed to, but I'd like to answer it anyway:

1) "You, sir, are a fucking moron".

First of all - try to be civil to the other anonymous editor.

2) "It has been around since the late 80's".

Not true. I dare any editor of Wikipedia to find a printed source (a music magazine, for instance), published in the late 1980s or the in 1990s using the term "groove metal". Good luck with that. "Groove metal" - not as a "style", but as a term - is surely a recent internet invention, and no reliable source has surfaced yet telling us otherwise.

3) "...and Sepultura was so inspired by the movement in the states that they totally reinvented themselves with Chaos AD..."

First, there's was no "movement" or "scene" to speak of. Second, to say that "groove" metal was the main driving force behind Chaos A.D. is incorrect. There was a whole slew of influences that went into making that album, including industrial metal (Ministry, KMFDM), funk rock (Faith No More, the Red Hot Chili Peppers), 1980s hardcore punk (Doom, Discharge, GBH) and crossover (Amebix, Biohazard) or even Ice-T's Body Count project.

4) "So honestly, FUCK YOU".

Civil? Musicaindustrial (talk) 15:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

MusicaIndustrial, I have to strongly, strongly, strongly disagree about the term not being in use at least by thee 90's. There were some sources in print that used the term "Power Groove" to describe the stylistic approach, as well as post-thrash, many of which have PREVIOUSLY BEEN CITED.

Yes, "power groove" can be sourced. I have a '92 Pantera interview on Kerrang! where "power groove" is mentioned... But "power groove" is one thing, and a printed, reliable early 1990s source using the term "groove METAL" is quite another. For all the debating, that very important piece of information hasn't surfaced yet... Musicaindustrial (talk) 09:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Namely, mostly from Exhorder and Pantera, and some from Machine Head and Pissing Razors, as well as a few citations from Fear Factory. I'm not going to go through the trouble of hunting it down when its all spaced out within this discussion. It has already been sourced. Even early usage of it from the early 90's. Read the whole discussion and you will find these sources.

Sorry but no, this haven't been sourced. The article itself uses five recent internet sources, and just one of them (Blabbermouth) is reasonably reliable. The rest are, basically, garbage. And the sources used in the discussion are also recent, unreliable internet sources. Musicaindustrial (talk) 09:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and also, for you to say there was no movement is erroneous too.

Prove me wrong then, mate. How many bands were in this movement in early nineties? How many labels were exclusively dedicated to this style of music? How many fanzines? Or proper music magazines? Hundreds of bands make a movement... not five or six. And when the so-called "groove metal" picked up momentum in the mid-1990s, it wasn't percieved as a "movement" but as a fad within the metal community. I know, I was there... Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

And yes, Sepultura did take influence from early crossover and groove metal that was occuring in the united states. You're very erroneous on this trust me this stuff has been cited and sourced.68.18.174.226 (talk) 18:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"And yes, Sepultura did take influence from early crossover and groove metal that was occuring in the united states". Did I say otherwise? No. What I said is that: a) to consider "groove metal" the main driving force behind Chaos A.D. is incorrect, and b) I did say that crossover (Amebix, Biohazard) was one of the alternate influences of that album. Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Musicaindustrial. I understand your concern but there are citations out there that pre-date this article. If I'm not mistaken there was the term used "Post Thrash" as well, along side "Groove Metal" - many see it as synonymous.

"...many see it as synonymous." Too vague. "Many" who? What are their names? Are they professionals? Are they worthy enough to be considered reliable sources? Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is a citation - from Century Media and from Metal Edge, describing band "The Haunted" as Post-Thrash. http://www.centurymedia.com/us/news.php?artist_ID=22

An unreliable source. It's news section from the band's label. Labels will do anything to sell, including the adoption of new "genres" for marketing purposes. Again, a good source for this should be old, printed, and third-party. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, since both the terms "Power Groove" and "Post Thrash" are cited long before this article was created...

How long ago? By whom? Again, a unsubstantial atgument. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

...I don't see what the big hooplah is all about. Just my two cents. Oh, and also, did you miss the citation from Decibel magazine as well? So there are sources for it in Kerrang, Decibel, AND Metal Edge, not to mention Roadrunner Records.DarrelClemmons (talk) 21:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

All recent sources! I want a printed source from the nineties! Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

ROB Zombie is a industrial rock/metal performer. WHITE Zombie was a rock/metal band that played groove metal at one time. And what about Machine Head, Pantera, Lamb Of God, or Exhorder? They clearly aren't thrash, or industrial. So what are they? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.252.157 (talk • contribs) August 12, 2008

The industrial band I am refering to is Rob Zombie. Most of the other stuff is just an advancement on thrash. The chugging guitar style and major use of rythms is still the same. So what if a new style within thrash appeared that some might try to call "groovy" hence trying to start a complete new genre - "Groove Metal". I am the only one who feels that Groove metal even sounds retarded if not embarrissing to use. Industrial metal was basically the start of the next genration of heavy Metal as it took more modern influences and sounds. Funk Metal which appeared and has hopefully died (it was as much funk (which is a type of soul) as it was experimental, rap, reggae or punk) also was a major influence to change at the time. I thank the poster who's approach was far more mature unlike the great debater ... Fuck you???!!!

"groove" in groove metal implies its beats, swings, shuffles or odd polyrhythms. Timing structures in it with the guitar and drums changing the feel from half-time to double time, etc. And I'm sorry if I sounded a bit rude I'm just tired of people whining about crap when this has been sourced several times over. 68.18.174.226 (talk) 05:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

To the people removing stuff from the article, stop it

Citations from the net on various groove metal artists influence...

Phil Anselmo: http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.Net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=88583 Also, so you know, the guy that keeps removing the hardcore punk influence in groove, several groove bands did cover songs of hardcore bands. E.g. Pantera covered "The Badge".... I mean - come on dude, self evident shit shouldn't have to be "cited" every word of wikipedia shouldn't always have to require citations man. Just the "main" point. Stuff that you can find browsing on basically any website of the bands should be fairly obvious. But I guess not to those who want every single letter to have a source. More on Phil Anselmo: http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/news/article/0,,4545764,00.html Exhorder hardcore influence: http://exhorder.tripod.com/lookagain.html http://www.carnagedeathmetal.de/carnage/oldschool/interviews/Exhorder_2006.html Sepultura hardcore influence: http://sepultura.uol.com.br/v6/en/profiles-andreas.php Machine Head hardcore influence: http://www.machinehead1.com/bio.html

I just wish that people would, rather than deleting important parts of an article based upon their opinions or upon "doubt" they have about the written article, that they would contribute to it by at least first researching and seeing how they can contribute, rather than helter skelter, hurdy-gurdily delete things. Its irritating. I know people want a citation for every letter on wikipedia anymore, but please, realize, I may not know how to add the citation at the bottom of the page, but I'm well versed in music history, and I've been involved in heavy metal since I first started listening to it back in 1986. So please, trust me when I say this: When I add stuff to this article, its not out of bad faith or out of "original research" - its usually stuff I got from magazines, interviews, reviews I've seen in videos, some of this stuff you can even find on "youtube" if you look long and hard enough... but wait! Thats right, wikipedia bitches about citing youtube as a source. Wikipedia has become so flawed, everything contradicts everything. Every rule they have is contradicted by another rule, contradicted by another rule. Its so damn beurocratic anymore to just get 1 important thing put in an article, and it has become so arbitrary that people delete things from articles (important things, mind you) without looking up the self evident stuff and contributing to the article. Rather, they delete what they think isn't worthy because of a high self opinion. Its sickening.68.155.232.203 (talk) 17:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

A dare

Go on to the MA and say that Pantera, Machine Head, modern Sepultura, White Zombie, and Grip Inc are thrash and see how long it takes you to be dursted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.253.21 (talk) 04:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Metal Archives isn't a reliable source... This has been discussed through and through. Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the debating, Kerrang!, Metal Edge, Decibel, Roadrunner Records, Blabbermouth, and Century Media are all reliable sources. All of which have used the phrases "Power Groove" and "Post Thrash" which are all synonymous with Groove Metal (And both phrases were in rotation during the early and mid nineties, long before this article was ever created, and before wikipedia ever even existed. I've made the citations above. Hopefully the citations will make it on the article by good faith editors. Hopefully it will help everyone come to a consensus. DarrelClemmons (talk) 06:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No, they're not. Roadrunner, like all successful music labels, is market-saavy, which means it will adapt to what the demands of the business are. If the buying public wants to call Chaos A.D., 15 after being released, a "groove metal" album, fine - Roadrunner will go along with that. After all, they're in the business of selling.

And the rest are all recent sources, which only proves that "groove metal" as a genre tag is a recent internet invention. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

groove thrash & thrash groove

Whats the difference? One is thrash metal that has a certain groove in its rhythm and the other is groove metal that uses thrash guitar. I just made that up but it kinda explains the reasoning behind alot of the arguments being presented above. Metalosaurus (talk) 20:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Pantera have a lot to answer for genre categorising

I can remember seeing an interview with Venessa Warwick on MTV implying Cowboys from Hell is "power metal" as Venessa comments on Pantera being similar to Judas Priest and how many fans class them as thrash. This is the first time I heard someone use the word groove which was Phil saying they try to add groove to their songs as opposed to basic thrash which is just in ya face & repetative. A year or so later they are calling themselves "power groove". It is from Pantera that this term gets pushed forward. They are like Napalm Death as they love to invent or cite genre labelling into interviews.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a0S6CKT4LfU

I personally think genre labelling has been the root of so much problem in Heavy Metal music. Some people feel the need to box groups into a category as opposed to just use the term to mean styles of heavy metal when discribing a band. On the album "Power Metal" Pantera were always bordering on a Power metal / thrash metal line. On Cowboys from Hell the difference in style is great and Cowboys from Hells is very much a thrash influenced album. Notice even in the interview when Phil tries to describe his music he has to identify it with thrash only with a bit of a "groove" to it. In the beginning of the 90's when thrash was still very popular many thrash bands were incorperating a catchy groove into there songs. Its what the fans loved at the time. It was a slow build up due to many popular older thrash songs having a kinda groove to them. Songs like Toxic Waltz, Caught in a mosh, Violent by Nature & Surf Nicaragua are fine examples.

It was after this that the Funk Metal (later dropped back to being called "Funk Rock") fad came and went with the after mass leaving groove metal, industrial metal, Rap metal and all the other styles that contributed to Nu Metal

Metalosaurus (talk) 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you not think this talk page should cleaned up & started again?

as the question asks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 20:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

As in archive, then yes it should be. Although I'm not too sure if we could do it manually or just let a bot do it for us. FireCrystal (talk) 23:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Archive 1