Talk:Gun control/Archive 2

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Archive 5

Rewriting this Article

Esteemed editors, I recommend we rewrite this article almost entirely for the following reasons:

• It doesn't describe the practice of gun control as a concept
• It doesn't describe the history and origins of gun control correctly (some US and Australia junk only, not real work)
• In its current format it encourages people to just come and fight (the arguments section is just a virtual WP:Battleground] invitation)

Sadly this article has become a place to:

• argue for or against gun control in the US, UK, Australia
• try to determine what practice between US, UK, Australia is better
• as a place to say that gun crime is horrific and a health concern and as a place to say that gun control can lead to the holocaust
• as a general dumping ground and spillover on the ongoing gun control fights going on in the US
• the argument section are just a poor attempt to segregate the fighting on the topics. It's self serving and doesn't contribute to the article.

TO me that's just not right. I'm sorry. Wikipedia deserves better. We need a short beefy article that describes gun control which at one extreme bans firearms entirely from the population and at the other extreme where you have existent limits on gun ownership with might be trivial. That's the spectrum. We shouldn't be dumping a bunch of arguments in here trying to sway the reader. That's not what Wikipedia is here for. We shouldn't be dumping irrelevant statistics on the US or UK here, that's not what this article is about. We need to take a worldview with this and it needs to describe the concept - no more no less. Let's discuss on here but to me the article has way too much garbage, it's poorly organized, and it's POV laden and filled with weasle words and out of date tags which just shows nobody is really working to fix. Let's discuss.-Justanonymous (talk) 21:33, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Lots of concerns. Why do you think Gun Control is a "concept" and not simply "any law, policy, practice, or proposal designed to restrict or limit the possession, production, importation, shipment, sale, and/or use of guns or other firearms by private citizens among others?" What history do you wish to downplay, or cherry pick? Shouldn't all relevant history be given equal coverage, in proportion to what is found in cited references? Contention has been fairly low on this article for some time, at least until mid-December 2012, with Sandy Hook. Why shouldn't gun control "fights", as you call them, in the US not be covered? A "short beefy article" that only covers what you feel should be here is just not the way Wikipedia works. Statistics are clearly necessary for understanding the details, rather than simply writing a "short beefy article" that only has emotional content, which appears to be what you are advocating. All that said, can this article be improved? Absolutely! But, we shouldn't throw out the present content, that contains statistics necessary to accomplish the goal of improving this article. My $0.02. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 22:08, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Plato wrote, "As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury. Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." he also wrote, "In a constitutional government the fighting-men have the supreme power, and those who possess arms are the citizens." That was 2,500 years ago and he wasn't talking about firearms or guns. He was talking about weapons. Gun control is the modern (since 1600s or so) extension of a broader concept of arms control which dates back since humanity first arose into sentiency and probably from just before (no RS on that) but we can go back to the earliest written words like those from Plato, Chinese thought, and Japanese thought and we find that concept. Arms control was there and it progressed through Roman times, the middle ages, Rennaissance, American Revolution, French Revolution, modernity. There is quite a history that this is a concept - the concept of denying or restricting the populous from being armed. Regarding your broader point, we can most certainly cover the US, it's just that the article is not about gun control in the United States. We can start that article if we want or add to it here. This article is about gun control as the concept, not about the petty bickering going on right now. This is an encyclopedia. Similarly since this article is not about the US, we shouldn't just have US statistics particularly those that are factually incorrect.-Justanonymous (talk) 22:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

And, similarly, there is the concept of Sell your cloak and buy a sword, an instruction by Jesus to his disciples which has been interpreted in several ways. At the Last Supper Jesus says: “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” Luke 22:36, NIV. Some, such as S. G. F. Brandon point to Luke 22:36 as a justification for either self-defence or righteous violence, which is the classic counter to the Roman (and earlier Greek) belief(s) in arms control. The founders in America clearly also believed in this right to self defense and righteous violence, as well. Ignoring the God-given right to self defense is a classic approach to arms control being the antithesis to the concept of righteous arms. We should include both viewpoints in this article, rather than simply covering the secular side, as you seemingly advocate giving preference and sole emphasis and shrift to Plato, Aristotle, Alexander the Great, et. al., and to 17th-19th Japanese samurai up to about 1867. Restricting this article to just the secular coverage approach, as you advocate, would not be neutral, either. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 22:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Let's just be clear, this is an article on gun control not on self defense which is what the Luke reference is alluding to - that the road is dangerous and you have an inalienable right to defend yourself (why shouldn't you?). Also, let us not confuse a theological work, the bible, with nonfiction historical works on ancient greek philosophy. But you get my point, there is a history here to the concept and that's what this encyclopedic article should describe. Not the minutiae of Australian and US current gun control issues.-Justanonymous (talk) 22:57, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Your implication that the Bible is a work of fiction is extremely offensive. You really need to consider the viewpoints of others, rather than belittle everyone that disagrees with your secular world view. Remember, the goal to writing a good article on Wikipedia is consensus. Insulting other editors is not the way to encourage collaboration, which is always needed to reach consensus. The presumption you make, of ignoring any God-given rights to self defense and presenting only secular arguments against guns, with a presumption that "gun control is always wonderful", is showing badly. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 23:06, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I didn't imply anything, your reading comprehension and bias is clouding your reading comprehension. I correctly labeled it a work of theology and out of context since this article is about gun control not self defense. Shall we discuss improvements to the article? -Justanonymous (talk) 23:14, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Then, why use the phrase "nonfiction historical works on ancient greek philosophy", when you could just as easily have stated "historical works on ancient greek philosophy", unless you were specifically attempting to draw an offensive comparison. No, your message is and was clear, and it is extremely offensive. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 23:18, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

It's a talk page, stream of consciousness no disrespect intended. Shall we discuss improvements to this article?-Justanonymous (talk) 23:24, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Are we discussing the "offending passage" or afd here? JustAnonymous, I am asking you to return the passage to the article so that other editors can view it in context, before we discuss "whatever." I think it has been there for a month or so. WP:BRD says this:

"BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes. Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work or for edit warring: instead, provide a reason that is based on policies, guidelines, or common sense."--StopYourBull (talk) 23:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

It's back in, go to the section above and discuss that entry there.-Justanonymous (talk) 23:13, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll see you there shortly. To add my bit here, I think what you and Miguel Escopeta are discussing may fit with some changes to The Right to keep and bear arms article.Have some though about that.--StopYourBull (talk) 23:17, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Impact on Mortality and Injury - contentious text removed and pasted here for consensus

Sorry guys, this just doesn't make sense and some of it is untruthful. Facts are that:

• some countries have far worse gun crime than the United States, so it's untruthful statement
• this is not about the United States, this article is about the world, leading with the US is nonsensical
• it's filled with weasle wording that sounds to me like "Yet despite all of these horrific facts there is still disagreement by idiots out there" - it's biased sorry.
• it's questionable whether this is a matter of "public health" - that is concept that comes straight from the UK. If you want a section on the "public health" argument then we need to describe it in an NPOV manner vs trying to make the argument for gun control in the article.
• tag has been here since 2010 saying this section is to US / western centric.

There is general agreement that gun violence is a serious public health and economic concern, especially in the United States, where an average of 32,300 people die and approximately 69,000 injuries occur per year due to guns, at a estimated annual cost of $100 billion. Yet, society remains deeply divided over whether more restrictive gun control policies would save lives and prevent injuries. Scholars agree the rate of gun violence in the United States is disproportionately high relative to other wealthy countries and a 2005 analysis suggested that the United States' low life expectancy (relative to other wealthy countries) may be attributable to guns, with a reduction in average American lifespan of 104 days. Nevertheless, strong disagreement remains among academics on the question of whether a causal relationship between gun availability and violence exists, and which, if any, gun controls would effectively stem the violence.

Let's get some consensus on stuff like this before adding this to a world article. The banner saying this is to US centric has been there since 2010 and nobody has done anything about it so I'm doing something about it. Help appreciated let's keep it NPOV. In my mind, The article is not here to make an argument for or against gun control but merely to describe gun control. I'm entirely unsold on whether the article should be organized as such with a bunch of arguments for or against. This article is merely to describe gun control vs attempting to sway the reader with arguments.-Justanonymous (talk) 21:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

What changes would you like to see to this passage? What would make it more NPOV? The article is US-centric, throughout, as a lot of research had been done on gun control in the past in the US. What could we add from the rest of the world. The one article is a comparison of wealthier nations around the world, including the US. The passage as it stands is well sourced. We could start by tweaking the wording.--StopYourBull (talk) 00:04, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I wrote a detailed description in the introduction to this section. "agreement" does not seem to be in the literature of references provided. The article section talks about this bing a problem "especially in the United States" which is factually incorrect, Mexico, Brazil, Subsaharan Africa have far worse problems and it might especially be a problem in the Congo or Colombia but not int he United States. We can't lie in the encyclopedia even by consensus. Nonfactual relativistic information and pov pushing should be removed immediately. Aside from that I think we've gone down the wrong path with this article - this is not a place to pump our particular arguments for gun control, this is an article to describe gun control contextually throughout history and on a worldwide scale not a pet project on US vs Australian vs UK gun control in the early 2000s which is what this reads like. Very POV laden.-Justanonymous (talk) 13:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

References

Impact on mortality and injury

There have been a lot of edits on this section. It is glaring Pro-Gun Control. Edits are reverted by Stopyourbull without discussion on the talk. Let's get consensus:

• why can't we break down gun violence into it's constituent parts?
• it's factually inaccurate to say that the US has a "low life expectancy" It's 77+ years within a year or two of all the other industrial countries. This is not "low". Very arbitrary
• why can't we say that most of the gun violence is gang related? numerous studies out there show that it is.
• why must we have weasel words against the policy?

We need to discuss this right away.-Justanonymous (talk) 17:56, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Agree with you on the first three points. I don't understand the last one. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:09, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, and it seems we have a rough consensus to rework the article so as to be in line with WP:NPOV. ROG5728 (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Just to get this on the record, I am not the one making threats about who can and cannot edit articles in WP. I am not blindly reverting edits, but I will edit statements that run afoul of WP policies and make sure that they are properly sourced, and make sense. Contrary to what you say to each other, no page is "our page," and I take great offence to anyone trying to bully or otherwise push their opinions on any other editor. As I stated in my (bolded) response above: I simply will not be bullied. If you wish to take this to arbitration, I am fine with that, but coercion does not work with me.

To get to your specific points:

-we can break gun violence down into its constituent parts, as long as it is properly documented. Pointing out that "many' gun deaths and injuries are among people of lower-class status is wrong: the loss of their lives are just as much a part of the problem and expense as are deaths among college students. Similar deaths are included in firearms-related statistics around the world. Trying to slough them of as inconsequential is morally wrong and probably runs up against a WP policy somewhere. I will check.

-You have to read the article to understand what the authors are saying. I can provide an even longer and more detailed worldwide view that says the same thing and I will dig it out.

-You would have to provide actual numbers. It also is meaningless as a life is a life, the same types of people are included around the world, and they are still part of the cost to the health-care system.

-Some of what you have removed were weasel words. I think we should all go back and read up on what constitutes weasel words.

Apart from the rancor, I think we are making headway in cleaning up this article.

We do not have consensus---StopYourBull (talk) 18:41, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I do see what you are trying to do Stopyourbull and sadly it's not working. And there is consensus, you just don't like it. Progress is not me making an edit and you removing it. That's called edit warring, hence why I created this before we all get blocked. Agreed a rework is highly in order here - Looking carefully at the section I do note that there appears to be a bunch of pro and then a bunch of anti and then a bunch of other articles mentioned in prose. But if we want to have three formal sections that are anti, pro and other we can't do it in prose because the editor here winds up pushing an agenda with filler words that are biased. If we're going to list, pro and anti gun control research we should just list the research without accompanying weasel words and without injecting bias for the reader. It should be clear that we are listing potentially biased research and not take a position on Wikipedia as to the value of the research. Here are some examples of the bias and weasel wording:

A preponderance of studies point to a significant relationship between gun availability and gun violence.

• POV pushing uncited content, should be removed. It's uncited, it's weasel worded. Do we have a survey of studies we can point to and say like on climate change at least?

The press conference was disrupted twice by hecklers carrying banners that said "NRA: Killing Our Kids" and "NRA: Blood On Its Hands".

• This is POV pushing, shall we also add that the Newtown school board unanimously asked for armed guards? By this standard, if two hecklers warrant inclusion, shouldn't the unanimous actions of a school board acting in direct response to the tragedy in question and in line with what the NRA had requested? WP:NPOV violation.

This stems in part from successful efforts to suppress research by Congress[11] and the National Rifle Association[12][13]

• We can't just cite one side of the argument and not the other, here is the other side and it merits inclusion, "Ten senators who strongly supported the CDC gun research funding ban put their reasons in writing: 'This research is designed to, and is used to, promote a campaign to reduce lawful firearms ownership in America…Funding redundant research initiatives, particularly those which are driven by a social-policy agenda, simply does not make sense.']" Neither of the sources used here are strictly OR but if we're going to include one OR source, we should include the other. WP:NPOV violation.

The most thorough of these, the 2004 critical review by the National Research Council concluded that

• Weasel word phrase indicating a value judgement on a study. The editor in this case attempted to give undue weight to one particular study. Violation of WP:DUE and WP:WEIGHT

Another thorough review conducted in 2011 of data from many sources by the Firearm

• Another weasel worded value judgement on the part of the editor. Who claimed it to be thorough? At the very minimum we should add the person who made the claim that it was a thorough study.

Wikipedia is not a debate forum where Stopyourbull puts forth his argument and then MrGunRights puts forth his argument against gun control and may the better rhetoritician or the one with the best funded research wins. That is not what we are here to do. We document, not engage in the rhetoric. We need to rewrite this pronto-Justanonymous (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, and I noticed a number of other glaring neutrality issues. One example is the section Associations with authoritarianism, which basically acts as a one-sided rebuttal to pro-gun positions on the history of gun control; it claims that the Nazis "relaxed" their gun control laws, and yet in the very next sentence it admits Jews were eventually forbidden from possessing weapons at all. That's a bit of a contradiction, no? The section also goes on to quote an anti-gun Holocaust survivor, while making no mention whatsoever of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, or anyone on the other side of that issue. Shameful. This entire article has serious issues, and SYB seems to be the only editor stalling progress in improving it. Consensus does not require unanimity. ROG5728 (talk) 19:06, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Each edit has to stand or fail on its own. All are subject to being supported properly with verifiable acceptable references, not just opinion, or unacceptable blog posts, etc.. The weight they are to be given is due to the preponderance of information that is available (WP:DUE).

I'm not sure what you are accusing me of doing? Are you saying that I am engaged in something untoward? There is no consensus. You do not have carte blanche to make this page into one of "our pages."--StopYourBull (talk) 19:13, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Stopyourbull, this article falls under the scope of Wikiprojects firearms. It's not yours or mine or anybody else's. I'm specifically accussing you of reverting reasonable edits without discussing them materially in the talk. Above are a series of specific entries in quotes, please address your rationale for keeping them. If you can't provide rationale within a reasonable amount of time, I will remove them or modify them to comply with Wikipedia standards and policies. We're also likely going to radically rewrite the article. It's in bad shape. There is consensus for a rewrite:

• it seems that a tenous peace had been reached here where one pov pushing editor could push their agenda in their little bucket if they left the other pov pushing editor's bucket alone
• it seems that since December this tenous peace has been broken by not allowing Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership views etc from being included here along with other transgressions among other skirmishes in what appears to be a violation of WP:Battleground
• sadly the tenous peace came at the price of significant violations of Wikipedia policies. again violation of WP:Battleground

The consensus is that this article is POV laden and materially diverges from Wikipedia policy. We will work in good faith to bring it to Wikipedia standards. Do not block attempts to bring the article to a high Wikipedia Standard.-Justanonymous (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Are you threatening me? I've had about enough of your threats. You do not forbid me from editing.--StopYourBull (talk) 19:32, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Heaven forbid no Stopyourbull, we're a civil group here. But wikipedia editors have to have skin that is a bit more than paperthin. The article is a mess, both on the progun control side and anti gun control side. IT's a fact. Deal with it-Justanonymous (talk) 19:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you have references that are newer than the 17 or 18 year old references you used for the "mostly gangs" statement? Can you provide actual numbers or proportions instead of just the "majority" or "many" weasel words. That would be much better and up to WP standards.--StopYourBull (talk) 20:24, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Not a full answer to that but I did find a good source (the FBI) for the total number of firearm murders in the US in a year. For the most recent complied year, it is 8,583. [1]. I saw some figures for "disagreements between criminals" estimated at > 70% of that but still not a solid new source. North8000 (talk) 20:43, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Thank you. Those may be closer, but not quite close enough yet. I will look, too, although I do not believe that police-supplied UCR data has that degree of accuracy. I am still of a mind, however, that it does not matter who dies or is injured, someones's family is still left to deal with it and there is an equal burden on the health-care system for the injuries.--StopYourBull (talk) 21:00, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, just as with the other ~2,500,000 deaths and ~100,000,000 injuries in the US each year. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

You are correct, but the same type of analysis and treatment goes into automobile deaths and injuries. I have worked in that area and the similarities are close. With the advent of better and safer automobile construction, better road geography, and especially better trauma treatment, deaths are going down. That does have an odd downside in that it is now more expensive for the health system.--StopYourBull (talk) 21:18, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

(added later) Good observations and info. North8000 (talk) 23:16, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Not only gang related but it's estimated that over half of all gun crime victims in the United States were criminals themselves recently released from prison, felons, etc. Young people for sure with families but still criminals. Here is an article, admittedly from a conservative source but follow the links, there is some good data and insight there. Once we start peeling the onion, a very intersting picture emerges on the nature of gun crime in the United States.-Justanonymous (talk) 21:57, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

That all may be true, but the big point would be whether the constituent proportions of gun-related crimes in the US are any different than they are in other countries. If they are then you would certainly have a point; if they aren't then there is something distinctly awry that needs to be investigated.--StopYourBull (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

We have to be careful here. Gun Control is an action by a government to restrict firearms from the people. Gun crime is something that might or might not have a direct correlation with Gun control and it will vary country by country. A layperson's analysis would clearly show that the percentages in the types of violence in different countries varies widely and largely irrespective of gun control:

• Mexico has almost a complete gun ban but because of drug gangs (drug cartels) there is a very high gun violence rate, mostly among cartel members but the people do suffer.
• The US has over 50% of the world's weapons and enjoys crimes rates that are very low and in line with most modern societies (we can argue between Britain's 1.9 per 100k and the US 3.2 per 100k statistics until we're blue in the face)) and if you remove the gang violence crimes America's gun violence levels are positively benign for a country with 50% of the world's arms. This needs to come out.
• We can look at subsaharan Africa where gun violence is more indiscriminate and the mass of the population suffers and governments are not strong at all so it's irrespective of whether they have strong or lax gun control laws - it doesn't matter, you're a gun lord, you get guns (come and take them is their motto and they'll arm 8 year olds if it serves them). In Botswana you can buy an assault rifle (full auto) for $200 and it's legal.
• Japan has very strong gun control and has very low gun crime (is it low crime because of strict gun control or is it a violent free society that sees it reasonable to outlaw guns? Arguments can be made. Stories abound of women forgetting their purses in a busy park in Tokyo only to come back a week later to still find their purse there untouched. Try that anywhere else on the world!)
• Switzerland has gun crime rates in on the low end of being in line with developed countries and all able bodied men have access to an assault rifle.
• Great Britain & Australia both ban guns almost entirely yet they are still plagued by sporadic mass killings and they have a horrific statistics on other criminal violence (assault, robberies, burgularies, home invasion) - what to make of that? And yes, they have gang issues too.
• Brazil has middle of the road gun control yet suffers from horrific murder rates (a lot of them with guns).

I think this short example shows that gun control, as a crime control policy and health tool, does not benefit from strong corrollaries - that is to say, strict gun control policy does not mean low gun crime or low crime or low violence. Isolating the variables that would make studies reliable are very difficult across an entire planet that has governments that vary in size and government form, how they collect or categorize data. In some places there is no real data. The ratios and nature of crime in the United States vs Brazil are very difficult to quantify and to look at the United States too superficially yields a warped bizzaro view into the effects of gun control. I can leave my door unlocked where I live but I'm not insane enough to even drive by parts of Baltimore in broad daylight in a big SUV with my windows rolled up and a police escort. The UK and Australia are also not great examples if we refuse to talk about the ancillary reprecussions to gun control.....a shift of violence from gun violence to knife violence to where they're thinking of outlawing pointy kitchen knives! or if we insist on blatantly lying about our crime rates (an article in Wikipedia until recently stated that Australia had a low crime rate when compared to the US and UK - a blatant unsupported lie that the source did not support) But yes, in the US a very significant percentate of the gun crime and crime in general is gang related and most of the gang members have a criminal record and have done time and happen to be relatively young 17 to 31 (I'd say). Short-story is that the types of gun violence will vary from country to country. Gun control might play a role but only where the society wants it to play a role and superficially using studies to make one point while not addressing the complexity of the matter yields a POV ridden mess. Worse, this is an article about gun control not gun crime levels etc. My 2 cents. -Justanonymous (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Associations with authoritarianism

With regard to recent non-NPOV edits by StopYourBull, I would like to note that it's not a "claim" that the Nazis implemented gun control to disarm the Jewish population. It's a fact already documented by reliable sources in the article (the confiscation of weapons is also already documented in the article). Enough with the weasel wording. The fact that the Nazis relaxed their gun laws for the rest of the population is not relevant to the issue of the Holocaust or the massacre of the Jews, which this section is discussing. That text serves only to conflate and bury the relevant historical information, apparently because it doesn't suit the agenda being pushed throughout most of this article. Just because something is factual and/or sourced does not mean it is DUE. You're doing your best to make this section confusing and misleading, and it's not going to fly. By the way, one more revert will put you at 3RR, so I advise you to stop edit warring and start discussing the content here on the talk page. ROG5728 (talk) 19:26, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I would point out that it is ROG5728 that is engaged in blatantly pushing his POV by changing what the authors have said to what ROG5728 believes and would like to be true. NPOV would be stating what the authors state and not putting words in their mouth or declaring that something is accepted without providing support. The entire point of this section is that there is argument over whether weapons confiscation occurred or was or was not important, or even peculiar, to authoritarianism. The authors diverge on this point and you cannot ignore that and baldly claim that it has been decided to be the way ROG5728 wants it. ROG5728 has adjusted the passages to comply with what ROG5728 would like to be true, made assumptions that his view is accepted fact and changed the wording accordingly, added weasel words to play up parts that agree with his view, or edited out passages that disagree with what ROG5728 believes. ROG5728 has tried to remove or twist what the cited authors are saying. Some of the authors and quotations are stating that weapons confiscation is irrelevant to authoritarianism. Some of the citations and quotations also state that this line of reasoning is just a rewriting of history by a political faction involved in the US gun debate to serve their own purposes. If we are talking about WP:DUE, then up until about 1990 there is forty-plus years of historical scholarship that has not considered weapons confiscation to be either a necessary or sufficient or even notable condition to enable the Nazis to do what they ultimately did. ROG5728 must know by now that we cannot lay claim to these articles as "our articles," (whatever that may mean) and turn them into a political screed to serve our own ends. As far as threatening me that I must bend to your POV, you know where that should be housed--StopYourBull (talk) 20:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

What I removed is the weasel wording where you called it a "claim" that weapons confiscation took place in Nazi Germany. It's not a "claim" that the Nazis implemented gun control to disarm the Jewish population, so why refer to it as a claim? It's a fact already documented by the sources in the section. I removed the text about "relaxation" of gun laws in Nazi Germany because according to the sources that was only true with regards to non-Jews, so it's not relevant to the issue of the Holocaust. This section discusses the Holocaust and the massacre of the Jews. The fact that the Nazis relaxed their gun laws for the rest of the population is not relevant to the issue of the Holocaust or the massacre of the Jews. The Jews were completely disarmed prior to the Holocaust. ROG5728 (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

StopYourBull, a lot of your post is just making up nasty stuff about ROG5728. We should stick to specific content questions and issues. It seems that one specific dispute is whether to word that Nazis implemented gun control to disarm the Jewish population. as somebody's "claim" vs stating it as a fact. Maybe settling that would be a good place to start. Is this sourced, and is this in question? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:07, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, none of the sources in the entire section (Associations with authoritarianism) deny that the Nazis disarmed the Jewish population prior to the Holocaust. Furthermore, many of them explicitly state that the Nazis did in fact disarm the Jewish population prior to the Holocaust (and that weapons confiscation took place), so I see no reason to refer to it as a "claim." It's just weasel wording. ROG5728 (talk) 21:17, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I changed "claim" to "state" which is correct and neutral.

"Relaxed" is the term that is used in the citation, it has no connotation other than made less restrictive. It is correct and it is also stated that the Jews had all of their weapons confiscated. That is neutral. It certainly does not make Jewish arms confiscation less salient, and, in fact, points out that although non-Jews had more access to guns, Jews had all their weapons confiscated.

This section discusses Associations with Authoritarianism. The big problem is that weapons confiscation is a standard operating procedure during times of war or martial law. "We" also confiscated weapons from Japanese, Italian, and German citizens living in North America during WWII, and in the case of the Japanese living on the west coast of North America, that was done before we interned them in concentration camps. This is probably an argument that needs to be made in this section, as well. Leaving out cogent information is just POV pushing.

That America did something as well is evidence of a misdeed in America's past, and in no way contradicts the intended meaning of the German (and other) references. The US also acts in an authoritarian manner on occasion. The gun control opponents in the US are well aware of this, as they see the current efforts as a step along the authoritarian path. You are making a weak strawman argument, which actually argues against your purpose.. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:38, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I can back up everything I say, and I have said nothing that is "nasty." I am getting rather tired of being threatened, however, and I won't be told that my edits "won't fly" because they disagree with someone else's opinion--StopYourBull (talk) 21:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, you changed it to say scholars "claim" the Nazis implemented gun control laws to disarm the Jewish population and then wiped them out. The problem is that it's not a claim, it's a fact. The sentence is located in the middle of the first paragraph in the section (and no, it won't fly). ROG5728 (talk) 21:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

We need to be NPOV. I think what Rog5728 cleans is cleaning it up to a more neutral voice which is good. We should not inject weasel words per WP:WEASEL. Too much POV pushing.-Justanonymous (talk) 21:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

This is also not to say that gun control is evil or that it's bad. There are documented facts where totalitaian regimes enact gun control. Heck Plato was talking about them doing it back 2,500 years ago. It's quite common. Does it mirror what is going on in the US, UK, Australia? Come ask me in 300 years. I'm sure that if you asked an average Jewish person in 1935 whether gun control was bad, they might have said, "no, seems perfectly reasonable." Fact is we can't analyze and put into context modern gun control. We can only document what has happened in the past. Studies only go so far. There is a reason that Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership exists out there and why Israel insists on being a nuclear power to this day. They've had to learn some very hard lessons.-Justanonymous (talk) 21:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I have changed it to be NPOV and removed any weasel words. If you want to take this to mediation, we can--StopYourBull (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:46, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, you changed it to add weasel wording. Now it says scholars "claim" the Nazis implemented gun control laws to disarm the Jewish population. The problem is that it's not a claim, it's a fact. So why refer to it as a "claim" except to distort and bury historical information? ROG5728 (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

You also just exceeded 3RR. ROG5728 (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:3RR Stopyourbull, you have broken the 3R rule which is generally a bright red line when it comes to Wikipedia sanctions and is considered Edit warring WP:WAR. I understand that this is a difficult subject but we need consensus here not a war on the article. I will offer you an opportunity to revert yourself and restore the text and come here to discuss consensus or I will have to submit the violation for action by administrators. Sorry Stopyourbull, you have to get consensus here before you just start reverting everyone and edit warring. I know it's hard. I will leave a message on your page and on Rog's page.-Justanonymous (talk) 21:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Please do provide it to an adiministrator. I have some things to discuss about the way that this has been carried out as well.--StopYourBull (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok I assume you are refusing to revert your edit. I will report this and see what the Admin says. Please let's all agree to not further edit the article until an Admin makes a decision. It'll probably go easier on us if we behave here until someone provides guidance to all of us.-Justanonymous (talk) 22:24, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

The bundling of a large group of edits from various areas of the article into one edit by StopYourBull and then warring in the whole bundle makes it near-impossible to rationally deal with. Such bundling should be avoided / unbundled. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

This is beyond Third Opinion (since there are already more than three), and now in 3RR territory, so I'd like to suggest that all parties involved work toward clearly stating what your preferred versions of the article would be, and why, and then open a wider request for comment to invite others to come in and consider both sides. It's not necessarily binding, but it may help settle some things or at least give you some new ideas to consider. If you need help, please feel free to ask me. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department: Please take a number} 23:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Kafziel that's a lot more than I was hoping for. Here goes:

Option 1 - Gun Control - the encyclopedic article a lay person would expect to find

I was hoping to find a short beefy, 30k or so, noncontentious encyclopedic worldly article that informs the reader about Gun Control - which is simply a country's laws and policies aimed at restricting firearm ownership from the general population (ranging from trivial to absolute firearms bans). I'd expect to find the following elements:

• Lede - describing and defining gun control, the practice and the spectrum (from no gun control to total firearms ban)
• Infobox - A current world map denoting where countries fall on the spectrum of gun control (from no gun control to ban) Maybe 4 steps (no data, light restriction, moderate, outright ban) - I can do that svg, take me a bit to get good data.
• Origins - A modest entry on the history of gun control, it's roots in Greek, Chinese, Japanese arms control concepts expounded by plato and other philosophers. We've been constraining populations from having arms since the dawn of civilization, this is just a subset of a bigger concept
• History - History of gun control as it has progressed and evolved. Since guns only came into existence since the 1,500s or so, we might perhaps focus on history of gun control since then (the formal vs the arms control)
• See Also - A see also section of other gun politics and gun related articles
• Further Reading - Maybe a couple of notable books on the topic of gun control
• References - Standard References

I wouldn't expect to have a big arguments section where people propose their rationales for or against gun control. That's what we have now and it's an invitation to be contentious, long winded, disorganized mangle of words. As it is at 72,000 bytes and growing it's really hard to plow through and doesn't really educate the 12 year old and even the adults have to slog through a wall of pov pushing weasel worded stuff before they get any value from it. Right now you get an intro, an ugly infobox of guns and then you jump into a pro-gun control argument and you have to read 3,000 words to get to the next argument. It's painful and not up to Wikipedia standards. People are just trying to position their pet idea and push their POV while throwing a few stones at the other guy's pet idea. So I'm proposing almost a complete rewrite which is a lot of effort but we've done it here before. Esteemed editors, please feel free to add subtract or adjust this view, it's just a stub. -Justanonymous (talk) 00:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Option 2 I think that Justanonymous did a better job at defining a specific proposal than I am going to do here. But I may have a few useful core points to help sort this out. The first core question is whether the article should confine itself to just covering gun control itself, or whether to include arguments, rationales and reasons pro and con. Inevitably the latter would include selecting and presenting facts, (with or without spin in that presentation) and so selected and presented facts (unless the selection and the presentation is done unusually well and unusually objectively) will be just another form of slant. So I tend to think that the only choice that wouldn't be a giant eternally unstable wp:coatrack would be a narrowly defined article. The current article is immensely biased, being a combination of a coatrack mostly for one side of the issue only, and a un-wikipedian wp:npov-violating essay for that that same side. So the status quo is untenable. So option #2 is to strictly limit to gun control, not selected "background info" and rationales arguing for one way or the other. But if the latter is included, bring it in conformance with policies, (including wp:npov) which it severely violates at the moment. North8000 (talk) 01:59, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Option 3

• Simple, clinical description of what gun control is.
• VERY VERY stubby exceptionally summarized pro/con section (2-3 sentences for each side with the 10 second pitch)
• Spin-off article for Arguments for and against gun control or maybe Arguments for gun control and Arguments against gun control

Gaijin42 (talk) 01:27, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Option 4 - Gun Control - the encyclopedic article that a lay person and/or someone unfamiliar with firearms would expect to find Using the Racism article as a template of sorts...

• Lede - describing and defining gun (firearm) control, the practice and the spectrum (from no control to total ban)
• Infobox - Continue using the current one of "Gun politics by country".
• Definition/Types - A preface to help clarify that it comes in several forms such as Legislative, Cultural, Commercial, Practical, and Ecological (such as with hunting restrictions and the limitation on the number of rounds loaded at any given time).
• Influence of Technology - Firearms (as a practical and/or functional device) have evolved, albeit it slowly, but certain developments have had a greater impact than others, i.e. the self contained metallic cartridge, this made changeable magazines possible even though they did not come along until decades later.
• History - Starting with a modest section on the "Origins of firearm control' (a mini-lede of sorts similar to what Just recommends) followed by the history of the views towards gun control as it has progressed and evolved in light of technological changes. Starting with the creation of black powder in China there has been some form of control (or attempt to do so) over this technology. As Just correctly states, "We've been constraining populations from having arms (bows, swords, etc.) since the dawn of civilization, this is just a subset of a bigger concept".
• See Also - A see also section of other gun politics and gun related articles
• Further Reading - Maybe a couple of notable books on the topic of gun control
• References - Standard References

The caveats to this format hopefully are obvious, but my intention is that as clinical of an approach to the subject matter as possible be taken or that the references permit.

Discussion

I completely agree North8000, at a bare minimum we have to remove the countless Wikipedia violations present. Also at 72,000 bytes and with editors looking to still add content, this current structure is too long and too biased, hence the proposal for a more radical rewrite. At a minimum I hope we can get a dissenting vision from Stopyourbull so that we understand his vision for how this ends up like a high quality Wikipedia article. Once we get a couple of other Options and recommendations we can open it up for Rfc and see what the community thinks. Thank you for all the help. -Justanonymous (talk) 21:46, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I'm not sure if this will result in another format "Option", but here's my 2 cents on this matter. I regard this article in much the same way that I view the article, for example, on Racism. It's a worldwide phenomenon (meaning not limited to the U.S. regardless of the activity level or media attention), cultural norms do impact how it is viewed (understood, reviled, and/or accepted), as well as there are political elements affected by recent and historical events. Maybe the structure of the Racism article would provide a good framework for this article....?

That said, there seems to be ample information (meaning reliable and non-controversial sources) just to construct an article on the "concept of gun control worldwide" without getting into the myriad of POV arguments about who is "right" or "wrong" and/or gun control is "good" or "bad". It would seem that we can talk "about" gun control without actually debating it within the article. Make sense?--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:06, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with your idea Scalhotrod, we should be able to tackle this like we do in the "racism" article. That's a very logical way to describe this in a noncontentious NPOV manner. Let's wait a few more days and then open it up to Rfc.-Justanonymous (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I decided to go ahead and be WP:BOLD. I restructured and rewrote the article according to some suggestions in this discussion. I snipped a LOT of excess arguing and POV violations, moved the authoritarianism section into history, and condensed some info into the Arguments section. The arguments section still needs some trimming/balancing. Thoughts? ROG5728 (talk) 20:52, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I think this is the right path. The RFC on the dispute page attracted the usual high quality editors and the consensus was to go down a more NPOV path rather than have a bunch of pro and anti gun control entries. Let's keep making it better. I've been a bit busy but I'll help here.-Justanonymous (talk) 21:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Recent work

Looks like an immense amount of good work. Hard to be specific on such a scale, but in general the article looks much more wikified and encyclopedic now. North8000 (talk) 02:15, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Hear, hear! I second the praise of the judicious efforts. Nicely done... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

great stuff! Finally, some great NPOV movement!-Justanonymous (talk) 03:12, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

"Association with totalitarianism"

The section titled "Association with totalitarianism", which I just removed and was reverted, is clearly highly POV and partisan to the point of deceiving the readers of this article. A quick glance at Gun politics in Germany#The Third Reich's Discrimination Policy & 1938 German Weapons Act gives a completely different account of gun laws in the Third Reich. The section in this article consists of a series of highly selective quotations designed to give a particular impression to the reader, an impression which is opposite to the (better sourced, better written) to the content at Gun politics in Germany#The Third Reich's Discrimination Policy & 1938 German Weapons Act. The section in this article should simply be removed. Readers can read about gun policy in the Third Reich on the Gun politics in Germany page. There's no reason to have two separate and conflicting essays on the same topic. — goethean 22:46, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Did you actually read the Wiki article you just linked? It doesn't give a different account of gun laws in the Third Reich at all. Jews were eventually forbidden from possessing firearms at all. That info is correct and relevant to the history of gun control. ROG5728 (talk) 23:01, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

As for the quotes from Holocaust survivors, there is currently one quote each from Holocaust survivors on both sides of the gun control issue. ROG5728 (talk) 00:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The simple (verifiable) fact is that the Nazis used gun control as a tool in their genocide of the Jews, so of course that's going to be the gist of what the section says. ROG5728 (talk) 00:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Are the Holocaust survivors quoted in the article (in the clearly POV version has been restored twice) recognized authorities on "the association of totalitarian regimes with gun control"? — goethean 01:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

And although no one has responded to my reasonable question, User:North8000 has reverted my removal of the quotations from non-expert Holocaust survivors, with the edit summary: "Undo mass deletion. Please get consensus in talk." — goethean 15:34, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I will answer the false implied premise of your question which makes the question faulty. They do not need to be "recognized authorities on "the association of totalitarian regimes with gun control"" to include what they said. And, as indicated previously, folks on both sides of the issue were included. North8000 (talk) 15:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I will take that to mean that you agree that these people are not authorities on the subject. Why and how, then, were these seemingly random individuals selected to have their views on gun control published on Wikipedia as representative? What was the process by which these two people were selected? — goethean 15:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Goethean, please read what I actually wrote. If you want to make an actually "reasonable" question, try a more direct one rather than one with a false statement knitted in as a false implied premise. North8000 (talk) 16:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

All of the above machinations maneuvers aside, and saying that the answer isn't dictated by policy. I think that it would be a good idea to discuss the paragraph which includes the quotes from the two holocaust survivors. On one hand, such a way to select material runs a high risk of being cherry-pickable and so I am generally against such a process. On the other hand, there are two quotes in there from Holocaust survivors, both eloquent, who are in direct conflict with each other on the topic at hand. And so I found it to be gripping and informative, and a neutral approach. North8000 (talk) 17:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)North8000 (talk) 11:35, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no good reason to include quotations from two random non-experts in the article. And yet, when I removed them, you immediately reverted my edit with the edit summary "Undo mass deletion. Please get consensus in talk." And then here at talk you simply dismiss my reasonable questions as "machinations". You have provided no valid rationale for keeping the material, which is obviously inappropriate. You need to undo your edit immediately. — goethean 18:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

You don't have consensus to delete the quotes, so North8000 doesn't need to undo anything. Obviously it's interesting to see what Holocaust survivors say about the subject, and it's neutral (one quote per side). ROG5728 (talk) 18:39, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

As I said I am of two minds on this, but have no problem seeing the plus side....answering Goethean's question, a good reason to include would be to add to the informativeness of the article. North8000 (talk) 19:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment - from a historical perspective, as relatively recent and readily used of an example as WW2 Germany is, there are equally glaring examples over the course of history going back to days of the Roman Empire as well as the rule of Genghis Khan. In the U.S. similar circumstances that come to mind are the prohibition of native Americans and slaves owning weapons in the 1800's. My point is there are plenty of other historical examples of "association with authoritarianism" for us to debate, let alone argue, over a solitary (however recent/relevant/etc.) historical reference. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 04:20, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's a good point, but it simply emphasizes how obviously WP:UNDUE and inappropriate the article's attempt to associate gun control with Nazis is. — goethean 12:58, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The are prominent and notable examples of gun control which is the subject of this article. I don't agree with trying to use (IMO stretched use) technicalities to get coverage of such removed. North8000 (talk) 14:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

NPOV is not a technicality, it is a non-negotiable bedrock policy of Wikipedia. Pretending that gun control is most closely associated with Nazis by spending an inordinate amount of space in this article discussing gun control in the Third Reich is a clear violation of NPOV. User:Scalhotrod's comment above also illustrates this obvious fact. What other societies throughout history had gun control? Instead of treating that somewhat elementary question, this article attempts to tar a public policy by associating it with Nazis and communists. — goethean 15:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Gun control as a policy is not inherently "good" or "bad", its just a tool of society and the article should be written to reflect this. That said...

• To the best of our ability, as editors we should cite examples that demonstrate the historic ramifications and effects of how different cultures, societies, and governments have implemented gun control. During the Roman Empire the phrase "Civis romanus sum" (I am a Roman citizen) was enough to protect any person traveling through the Empire. It's might was so great, that no one dare take arms against or harm one of its citizens. Did crime still happen, YOU BETCHA, but it was still effectively a form of early "arms control". Fast forward several centuries to the 1800's city of Tombstone in the Arizona Territory, Marshall Wyatt Earp and his deputy brothers famously controlled the level of violence by limiting the possession of firearms while "in town". The policy was also implemented in the Black Hills of the Dakota Territory and in Montana. I found this reference, Gun control in the Old West. I don't agree with every word of it, as its an opinion piece, but it demonstrates the point. Crime and violence have pretty much always happened because of "people with bad intentions".
• Now on the flip-side of this coin, we have WW2 Germany (already being debated and yes, what the Nazis did was bad) and more recently the gun ban, buyback, and confiscation in Australia. Regardless of how you characterize the chain of events the fact is that the citizens of Australia have far less firearms in their possession and the crime rates skyrocketed. Murders, assaults, and yes even armed robberies went up by significant percentages, double digits in some instances or areas.

In other words, we need to include all of it, not "play favorites", and be as neutral as we can the facts permitting. Make sense? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The most valid argument I see for removing those two quotes mentioned earlier is to trim down the section so it doesn't take up too much space in the article; I agree the section is probably bigger than it needs to be. Thoughts on that, everyone? The NPOV argument is invalid; those two quotes are NOT a violation of NPOV. ROG5728 (talk) 17:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Holocaust survivor Haas, whose opinion was apparently elicited by an unspecified questioner and context, is not recognized as an expert in history or policy. Why is his opinion notable? The cited source does not appear to be a WP:RS. I don't see how WP policy supports the inclusion of this material. SPECIFICO talk 17:50, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, the quotation is cited to the website of "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" which doesn't exactly sound like a first-rate public policy reference material. — goethean 18:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

On the inclusion/exclusion of the survivor quotes, I'm on the fence/neutral.....I've made arguments in both directions above. But I must note that folks have been implying non-existent policies and norms as arguments for exclusion. "NPOV is not a technicality" hides a false implied assertion that the arguments I was discussing were wp:NPOV based and that I was dismissing such. Next WP:notability is a criteria for the existence of articles, not for the existence of content within articles. And "first-rate public policy reference material" or "recognized as an expert in history or policy" are much higher bars for sources than policy or the norm. Finally, folks are implying false criteria for what is being sourced, I.E. as if the inserters had inserted broad claims on the topic. What the sourcing needs to and does support is only that survivors said those things. North8000 (talk) 11:42, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That having been said, and without implying an opinion on my part one way or the other on the value of the inclusion of the opinions of a group highlighted as Holocaust survivors in this section, it seems to me that if opinions characterized by highlighted group membership are to be included, those opinions should be balanced by opinions (pro, con, whatever) expressed by members of other highlighted groups. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The section under discussion consists of two directly opposing opinions from survivors. North8000 (talk) 11:59, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I do understand that the section under discussion consists of two directly opposing opinions from that one particular group. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Clarifying my point -- it seems to me that if we are going to say "some members of group A agree and some disagree", we ought to present the positions of groups B, C, D, etc. as well; or, perhaps, to summarize the opinions of the various factions of these groups. At this point, we have not admitted the existence of any groups with opinions worthy of consideration other than group A. It seems to me that we beg the inference that the opinions of the various factions of Group A are the only opinions worthy of consideration. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:08, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Who said all of that? Folks seem to be setting up a straw man that this little paragraph purports to be coverage of the entire topic. When in reality it purports to be just 2 opposing opinions from two survivors. North8000 (talk) 14:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

What if there were a Mexican veterinarian who was wounded in a shootout of drug lords in a town plaza while ministering to an ailing donkey? Should the article cite a website "Mexican Veterinarians for Gun regulation" that solicited his opinion about gun ownership? Should we find an opposing Mexican veterinarian to balance the article? Would this be relevant and informative for WP users? SPECIFICO talk 15:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Severe wording problems

Even after a few minutes I've spotted a few very creative wording problems.

The first is nameing everything where a firearm was involves as caused by the firearm. That's like saying that drunk driving deaths "caused" by automobiles.

Second is the deception in the US numbers. In the US, the vast majority of firearm deaths are by suicide. Efforts abound to make those sound like something else. For example calling a suicide "killed by a family member" because a person is technically a family member of themselves, or "victims of gun violence" because technically whatever you do to yourself could be called "violence". This article does the latter, by following an unexplained listing of total US firearm deaths by a reference to deaths by "gun violence". North8000 (talk) 01:50, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, North8000. Can you quote specific instances, please. I think that the original data tend to be named that way. For example, it would be "automobile deaths, drugs or alcohol involved." I'm pretty sure that the sources discuss deaths by gunshot wound as "firearm deaths," or "gun violence." This is certainly the case in the press, at the very least.--StopYourBull (talk) 02:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the first item, "involved" is fine, but the instance of "caused by" in the article is not. North8000 (talk) 02:24, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

An example of the second item is where "where an average of 32,300 people die" is both preceded and proceeded by the term "gun violence" North8000 (talk) 02:26, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Would you rather have it as "death due to/injury due to gunshot wound?" For the your second example, would it be better as:

High rates of gunshot wound mortality and injury are often cited as a primary impetus for gun control policies.[1][page needed] There is general agreement that gunshot wound deaths and injuries are a serious public health and economic concern, especially in the United States, where an average of 32,300 people die[2] and approximately 69,000 injuries occur per year due to gunshot wounds,[3]

I would have to stare at that to figure out if it wasn't just an odd form of political correctness. Anyone else?--StopYourBull (talk) 02:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

it's a not a factual statement, it's a lie. " There is general agreement that gunshot wound deaths and injuries are a serious public health and economic concern, especially in the United States,". No, not especially in the United States, it's a far greater problem in Mexico, Brazil, an subsaharan Africa. The US is tame by comparison. We can't lie in Wikipedia even by consensus guys, yet his ludicrous statement is here. Can we at least take out the outright lies?Justanonymous (talk) 05:45, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

also where exactly is the agreement? Not in. Sources provided. -Justanonymous (talk) 05:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think that dialing back the most obvious wording problems as proposed is a good first step. But the result should not carry the imprimatur of being a finalization of the wording. North8000 (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

agree, it'll never be final. We should first make sure the comments are factual, then we should try to remove the bias at a minimum and get the basic english down. There are huge issues here. We also have some international editors on here and the multilanguage things is adding a lot of complexity to the sentences and it's frankly really messing up the nuance of the meaning in some complex sentences. That's part of the issue. Finally we have editing where the author assumes the reader knows something. The glaring example is the "especially in the United States" Miguel Escopeta writes in his talk that it's especially a problem because the US has a second amendment -- that context that the author is trying to make is not present in the sentence in question, it's a crime statistics sentence. The reader can't make the leap from "especially in the United States" to the because of the "second amendment" when the sentence is about statistics - the reader is logically going to assume that it's "especially a problem in the United States" because of the high number of deaths cited, only the numbers are not high when compared to Mexico, Brazil subsaharan africa and a bunch of other places. We have huge writing issues here. -Justanonymous (talk) 14:26, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that you and Miguel Escopeta may be in agreement at the "big picture" level but may not realize that. North8000 (talk) 14:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I 100% agree with your analysis. I came to realize some of that on his talk.-Justanonymous (talk) 15:00, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

This article is about gun control, not the philosophical underpinnings of self defence or the right to bear arms. I think that the article Right to keep and bear arms may be a better place to deal with that, and I would be perfectly happy to assist in promoting that effort. This article does, and should deal with, gun control in the modern world, with all the current realities that that includes. Twisting and turning to avoid these realities either by ignoring them or by couching them in gentle, politically correct language, is not dealing with the topic at hand.

The actual fact--from the cited documents--is that, among nations that are of the highest economic standing, the United States is a glaring anomaly in that the rate of deaths and injuries attributed to gunshot are vastly more than the other countries of equivalent economic standing, and even outpace most third world statistics. Every year, a city the size of Ann Arbor, Michigan (e.g.) is either killed, maimed, or crippled due to gunshot wounds in the US. The rest of the world wants to know what it is about firearms, especially gun control, in the US that produces this anomaly. I would think, also, that there is now probably a majority of Americans who are also wondering why this is the case.

I have little problem with the current wording of this article, although I do find some of the content superfluous to an article on gun control. It can always be improved, however, and I believe that adding more research and citations to back up--and balance-- what is there would be a step in that direction, along with trying to find more research done in countries other than the US. The article currently does have too much information from the US, but that can be remedied if we put some effort into it.

The big problem I can see with all of the articles on "gun politics" in Wikipedia, is that whenever someone is unhappy that the article is not slanted toward their particular values, or world view, another article is spawned to push the unhappy person's point of view. That's what needs correction.--StopYourBull (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• What this article is about - Respectfully, you StopYourBull don't get to unilaterally decide what this article is about. Right to keep and bear arms is a different topic as is the topic of Self Defense. This article is about governments and societies limiting guns. It's a meaty topic and there is a rich history to that that stretches all the way back from Plato and as Miguel said it's even mentioned in the bible to an extent. I'm ok with touching on the politics of specific countries of it but those shouldn't be central. We need to rationalize our gun articles.
• Be Clear and NPOV- If you're saying that America stands alone among "developed countries" then say that! don't assume that the reader will know. The way it's written at the moment it says that America is the worst but what you really need to say is that it's the worst among developed countries We need to be clear, "among developed countries the United States has a gun murder rate of 3.9 vs Britain's 1.2 per 100,000" and let's say it without judgement and weasle words like "yet." Let's also be completely clear that although the UK has lower gun crime, violence has shifted to knives - that's relevant. Analyzing gun crime in a vacuum does not yield an accurate picture to the full effects of gun controls. You're something like 4 times as likely to be stabbed in the Uk than you are of being shot in the US. Home invasions are up in the UK and Australia - some of the worst rates in the world (collateral to exercising gun control indiscriminately?)That's a huge part of the problem here with the article. Authors are assuming that the reader is an expert on gun control and they could very well be a 14 year old coming to write a book report and they get this specialist garbage loaded pov language and at the end of the day you wind up with a brainwashing article - which is what this is at the moment..
• Improvements should still be welcome- just because you don't see an issue is no reason to block improvements to the article
• The real problem with these articles - is that they are treated not like an encyclopedia but as a personal forum for POV pushers to drive home their personal agenda to the exclusion of everything else. We don't need US only statistics on this article and we don't need those detail US statistics on the Right to bear arms page either.....maybe in a Gun pollitics or Crime in the United States but not everywhere someone wants to dump their little POV.-Justanonymous (talk) 17:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. We cannot have just a pile of articles dealing with the polemics of weapons ownership in history. This is an article specifically dealing with gun control, and it must deal with the topic in the modern world and not with just the wisdom of the ancients. If you want to merge the content of this article with Gun politics (from which it originally sprang from what I've seen), I would have no problem with that. It may also solve some of the US-centric problem. I oppose just making this another philosophical treatment of gun ownership to avoid dealing with the provable realities of gun control.

I did not write that section, but I can see that, in an attempt to add balance and to phrase the issue in fair terms, what you are calling weasel words and not NPOV are actually one way to provide both sides of an issue: thus the terms "yet," "however," "on the other hand," etc.. As far as the statistics not agreeing with what you know to be true in Britain and Australia, you know that well-sourced additions are part of the WP process, and you can make such additions. You cannot expect, however, to go unchallenged if the statistics are spurious, out of date, bear less weight, or are irrelevant to the arguments being debated.

Yes, we always need to make improvements. I think you are saying the same thing I am saying: POV pushing is not good. The censoring of the exploration of the current realities of gun control is also not good.--StopYourBull (talk) 18:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

You are clearly saying that you want to write an article that exposes the perils of not having gun control? I'm sorry that is NOT what this article is about and that is not what Wikipedia is about. This is an encyclopedic article about gun control. Please read WP:NOT right away. This is not WP:Battleground. It's a topic and it has a history and we should NOT ignore nor gloss over the history of gun control and we should absolutely not create some kind of pro gun control article here (and we shouldn't create an anti gun control article either). That is clearly outside the boundaries. You also need to read WP:WORD and WP:WEASEL which explicitly states that we should not use weasel words and the wikipedia policy is that we should rewrite those articles per the policy. Please do not block me as I clean that up. We can go to arbitration. -Justanonymous (talk) 18:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

'POV pushing is saying that gun control is either good or bad based on distorted rationalizations, philosophical ramblings, unconnected anecdotal quotations, and censorship; presenting both sides of the argument supported by data as compared to specious argument and innuendo, is NPOV. I, for one, will oppose such changes, and demand facts bolstered by up-to-date empirical evidence'.--StopYourBull (talk) 18:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear -

• Will you will oppose the removal of weasel words? Yes or no?
• Will you oppose any addition of a history of the concept of gun control (it wasn't invented yesterday)? yes or no?
• Will you oppose the addition of facts for worldwide gun control by country?
• Will you oppose the addition of facts other than the onese you like? (your facts are very one sided, Mexico has a full gun ban and horrific gun crime we can take it from there.)
• Will you oppose the philsophical context from notable historical philosophers like Plato and notable figures in gun and arms control? (you label them ramblings I think)

We need answers to these and based on those answers and I think the other editors here need to know what you will and will not be able to live with in a consensus. I will seek arbitration if you are unreasonable as you appear to be and we'll figure out whether you have your personal pool to push your agenda or whether we have an encyclopedia here.-Justanonymous (talk) 18:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello Stopyourbull. Your last post was quite a blend of things.....some good ideas, some things that are in line with Wikipedia policies and guidlines, and some things that are directly in violation of them. I think we'll need on focus on specifics to sort this out. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:58, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello StopYourBull:

• A big chunk of your post seems to be arguing a reason why this article should be be POV'd. I think that that says a lot, but that is not right for a Wikipedia article.
• You seem to be conflicting with yourself. You start by saying that the article should be narrowly construed to be only about gun control itself, not arguments related to it. I guess that would also be fine, but it would entail deleting about 3/4 of the present article. The alternative would be to include the debates/ arguments / reasoning for and against and such is partially currently in the article (mostly the "for") and you said you like the currently article. So I'm guessing that you would prefer to have the "for" in there and not the "against", but that is not right for a Wikipedia article.

North8000 (talk) 17:49, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

There is a very glaring agenda here from Stopyourbull to cast the United States as the worst gun crime country on earth, that is what is written on the article and there is very strong resistance to changing that view eventhough it is patently incorrect. Wikipedia is not a place to push your bias or to drive your agenda. This article is very straightforward, I would expect to find a History of the concept, maybe a map of the world denoting countries on a spectrum from restrictive to unrestricted (I can do that if I can find good data), maybe some summaries of connections with right to bear arms, self defense, differnt types of governments. Very straightforward very substantive vs this garbage (pardon my french). I'm sorry, I'm just frankly agast at some of what the article contains. Also, just because this article hadn't gotten much attention pre-sandy hook doesn't mean it was a good article. We need to fix this asap, it doesn't stand up to Wikipedia standards.-Justanonymous (talk) 18:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The article in its current state is incredibly slanted in favor of one side of the gun control issue. Lumping the number of "gun suicides" into the number of "gun deaths" in the United States is just one example of the rampant issues in this article. The number is much lower if you confine it to gun murders. As pointed out earlier, the wording gives the impression that those are deaths caused by the availability of guns, and that is absolutely not true. The problem we're running into here is that people on the anti-gun side actually believe "more gun violence" means "more violence," when in fact it just means "more gun violence." The United States has a whole lot of guns and a whole lot of gun owners, so of course it's going to have more "gun violence" than other comparable countries. If people are killing each other (or themselves) with guns instead of with other items, is that a "serious public health concern?" Of course not. Murder is murder, suicide is suicide, etc., regardless of the means. The aforementioned issue is just one of many glaring issues in this article. The entire article needs a makeover so as to be in line with WP:NPOV. ROG5728 (talk) 00:35, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this article in a while and now that I have, I agree with JA, it is very poor. My opinion is that ROG5728 made the article much worse than it was. The revision not only rendered the article desultory and fragmented, but removed much material that he apparently found objectionable, though it wasn't necessarily invalid. I see a lot of claims of NPOV and undue weight on these talk pages, mostly by the gun advocates, and it seems they have been successful in gutting the article. Even the denigrations and attacks on the existing text are misdirected (e.g. the partisans do not seem to understand the meaning of term "weasel word", seem to think that the adjectives like "thorough" hide insidious value judgments, and think it is fine to remove material that is validly sourced under various pretexts).

I think the attempts to define the proper contents of this article are important, to prevent it from being mired in bickering. The history section seems like a good idea, but the Association with authoritarianism is horrible and should be removed (at least from this section). It is an argument not a historical treatment. The Argument section makes no sense as written. I think a description of the arguments commonly used to support positions for or against greater or lesser gun control would be valid in this section. I think this should consist of a statement of the argument, and the key supporting information, rather than a lengthy recitation of all the data possibly in favor of or against a particular position, i.e. no extensive rebuttals. I also think a section on research into gun control (How well does it work?) would be proper for this article, as would a section on the major advocacy groups and political positions involved in this issue. The issue of the scope of the article is a tricky one: US vs. global. Clearly, it is easier for most of us to find sources for the US, and perhaps focusing the article explicitly on that is the solution.Michaplot (talk) 18:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Michaplot, for the information of editors who come here looking at the RfC below, please consider repeating the relevant portion of your remarks, and/or view of the Proposal, in that section. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 18:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

close RFC

I motion to close the RFC, without prejudice. The arguments are all over the place, with people on all sides of the argument talking orthogonaly to each other (and even orthoganly to people on the same side). I doubt we could get consensus on what the RFC is even asking, let alone consensus on the result of the RFC. It is been largely derailed by tactical specific editing questions. If the Overall section needs to be removed/reworked a new RFC should be tailored to that question and handled from scratch. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

It was flawed from the start in many respects. I think that it answered one question which is that there is strong opposition to total elimination of the section. But even the specific meaning of that is unclear and not helpful towards guiding the process. North8000 (talk) 20:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

=

Reliable sources

From policy "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Sometimes "non-neutral" sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject"

As the entire goal of the section is to present a viewpoint, these sources are entirely valid. Gun guntol, like every other tool can be used for good intent, or evil intent, and with more and less effectiveness. We list attempted uses of gun control that are (to one viewpoint) positive, such as Australia etc, and document its effects and effectiveness. Documenting times when it was used as a tool for evil is equally valid. Both are a core part of the history of the topic. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Straw Man: Of course RS do not have to be neutral. Content does however need RS citations. SPECIFICO talk 14:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Rather than a straw man, I saw it as addressing your earlier post which, as I was interpreting it, was saying that JPFO is "fringe" because their viewpoint on the topic is very biased. North8000 (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Holy Holsters, North. Fringe and RS are two different things. Like Nazism and Democracy. SPECIFICO talk 15:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that there is question of your use of "Fringe" for JPFO, and consideration of the possibility that you wanted to give call them that to exclude them due to them having a very strong opinion on the matter. So I thought that Gaijin42 was addressing the latter rather than true "fringe". North8000 (talk) 16:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

North, their paranoia is infectuous. I have absolutely no opinion on Hitler's gun laws. I just like to see content conform to WP policy, which is pretty well thought out for the most part. Why would I care about Hitler's gun policies? Again, it's no more significant than his preference for mayo rather than the more conventional mustard on his sausage. SPECIFICO talk 16:19, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

thanks north. Specifico, how about a dose of WP:AGF and a bit less snark? His choice of mayo has no impact upon the holocaust or on the jews or other victims of his regime. Gun confiscation is very well documented as a tool that was used by the Nazis to implement the Holocaust. Not the only tool,not a sufficient tool, perhaps not even a necessary tool. But it is completely uncontrovercial and undeniable to say that it was a specifically implemented tool to aid in the Holocaust. We have MANY primary sources specifically commenting on the plans to confiscate guns, and that pogroms and other attacks have low risk because of the disarmament. This has been commented on by multiple secondary sources. Some of those sources are indeed pro-gun viewpoints expressing a POV, but there are also significant neutral sources linking the topics (specifically about the Holocaust and more generally with totalitarian regimes and genocide). To say that this is an unrelated sub-topic is beyond the pale, and reeks of holocaust denialism and trolling. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, I do assume your good faith. I just think some editors, I forget which one you are, evince much confusion about policy -- in particular the use of sources, synth, veiled implications of language and juxtapositions of text, and other matters, many of which I've commented on here. I stumbled on this article entirely by accident. If you believe that "gun control" was a decisive factor that led to the Nazi genocide, you should have no trouble finding recognized historians, public policy experts, and others to cite in support of your belief. Have at it. Don't resort to some pathetic demented Survivor. Pity him, but don't wave his fear and rage at us in this WP article. Please consider. If you intended to accuse me either of smelling or of being a denier or troll, please strike through your remarks, with or without apology. Thanks. 16:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC) (by SPECIFICO)

You are putting words into my mouth. I did not say it was a decisive factor. In fact in my last comment I specifically said it was just one tool used. You seem to be saying we have not sourced that it was a factor at all (or at a minimum a factor according to the opinion of some people). Gaijin42 (talk) 17:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Gun confiscation is very well documented as a tool that was used by the Nazis to implement the Holocaust.

This is an argument by opponents of gun control, not a fact of history. You will not find this statement in a mainstream history book. The section belongs under arguments, not history. — goethean 17:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

1. Don't forget to strike through your Personal Attack on me. I mean it. Also, in the future put all personal attacks on my talk page where they at least won't disrupt the editing of the article. 2. Find an uncontroversial source, please see my previous comment. SPECIFICO talk 17:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

No one made a personal attack. ROG5728 (talk) 17:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

To say that this is an unrelated sub-topic is beyond the pale, and reeks of holocaust denialism and trolling.

User:Gaijin42 just said that to espouse a particular position (actually, the mainstream position) on gun control "reeks of holocaust denialism and trolling." You are now claiming that this a constructive statement? — goethean 17:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but that's not a personal attack. He was talking about an editor's recent actions, not the editor himself. And he was right, the editor's actions on this page have been completely absurd. ROG5728 (talk) 18:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

@Specifico - This is NOT an argument at all. It is an uncontroversial interpretation/analysis of history. There are numerous reliable primary and secondary sources documenting the fact of gun confiscation by Nazis against the Jews. The controversy is in how IMPORTANT of a factor it is, not that it WAS a factor. The quote/paper from Harcourt and many others are in perfect agreement with this. The ARGUMENT (which is NOT being made here) is that gun control should be avoided in the future to prevent/hinder similar atrocities in the future. But that argument is NOT being made in this section. Don't put words into other mouths. My comment was not about a particular position on gun control, but that a denial that the gun control is related to Nazi atrocities was (trolling). (In the context of Specifico comparing gun control to Mayonaisse. obviously a constructive starting point. ) Gaijin42 (talk) 18:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Concur. ROG5728 (talk) 18:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

1. Saying that an editor's position on gun control amounts to holocaust denial is unconstructive and uncivil, and the user who does this should be warned about personal attacks, and his personal attack should be removed from the talk page.

2. If the "gun control caused the Holocaust" thesis were a neutral observation of history, and not an argument made by anti-gun control activists, the article wouldn't have to cite obvious pieces of propaganda like Lethal Laws: Gun Control is the Key to Genocide -- Documentary Proof that Enforcement of Gun Control Laws Clears the way for Governments to Commit Genocide, Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership. But it does, because your thesis is an anti-gun control argument, not a mainstream or neutral fact of history. — goethean 18:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

2) Nobody is saying that gun control caused the holocaust. We are saying that it was one of the tools used to implement the holocaust. It WAS (now deleted) quoting some who argued that more access to guns could have enabled some additional resistance, and saved some lives. Again, this is not controversial. Actual debate the real topic and not your boogeyman and we will be much more productive. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow Goethean, that's quite a straw man argument. No one said gun control caused the Holocaust, but to say that it wasn't a tool used by Nazi Germany in the Holocaust is absurd and completely at odds with history. ROG5728 (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

If the ARGUMENT weren't controversial, you would have been able to dredge up better sources. You haven't. It is. — goethean 18:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

NOBODY IS MAKING THE ARGUMENT. We are stating facts. The facts are well sourced. Gun control was a tool used by the Nazis to further the Holocaust. There are ZERO sources that dispute this. Nobody is saying it was the cause. Nobody is saying it was the primary method etc. Stop putting words into others mouths and acutally debate the real argument. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Goethean, do you really want us to add gun control quotes from Hitler?

The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty.

- Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations

Or would you rather we add gun control quotes from Mao?

Every communist must grasp the truth, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party.

- Problems of War and Strategy, 1938

Both of these individuals are on the record clearly stating that gun control was an important means to their political ends. ROG5728 (talk) 18:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Just be sure to include the NRA website that you got those quotations from. — goethean 18:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, they're actually well known quotes that have nothing to do with the NRA or any kind of pro-gun source. I cited the sources. You're deluding yourself. This is historical fact. ROG5728 (talk) 18:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

They are historical factoids carefully selected by people with an anti-gun control agenda in order to make an argument against gun control. NO mainstream history book contains these factoids. That's why this article doesn't cite mainstream history books. — goethean 18:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

uh, google scholar or google books either one of those quotes, and you will see that they are both quoted in a plethora of sources, many of which are not directly on the subject of gun control. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

All the hits I get have to do with gun control. — goethean 18:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow Goethean, anything that disagrees with you must have come from the NRA, huh? Even if it's directly quoted from Hitler or Mao's own literary works from the 1930s or 1940s. Do you realize how incredibly ridiculous you sound? ROG5728 (talk) 18:52, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not arguing that we should include these two quotes, merely refuting Goetheans position that the only use of these quotes is from biased pro-gun sources. They are quotes of high historical notability outside of any pro/anti gun arguments.

• The rise of the fourth rich
• Hitler's table talk
• The western world
• Inside Hitler's Germany
• Moscow to Stalingrad

• numerous results for the Mao quote

Your citations actually prove my point. These quotations are obviously cherry-picked. — goethean 19:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, they're actually direct quotes from Hitler and Mao's literary works from the 1930s/1940s and I already cited the sources directly. The only point being proven here is that you won't accept any information that disagrees with you. ROG5728 (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The "common sense" middle ground route which is allowed but not dictated by policy, and which is fragile under mus-statemetns of policy is that things which meet the basics of wp:ver and where the veracity of the statements themselves is not challenged should not be tried to be knocked out by setting higher sourcing standards. I think that what actually historically occurred described in a straightforward manner would fall under this. Also, if sourced, that gun control/confiscation was a factor / tool (without reaching farther to words like "essential" "major" etc.) falls under this category. I think that "what if" type statements would fall more under "arguments". North8000 (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The current state of the article is nowhere near being neutral. The article does not describe what took place in a straightforward manner, as you claim. It uses a highly selective set of historical factoids, crafted by opponents of gun control legislation in order to create an anti-gun control narrative. This should be plainly obvious to any neutral observer. You don't read about Hitler's gun control in mainstream history books. That's why this article is forced to use outlandishly partisan, fringe sources to make its highly partisan point. — goethean 19:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Goethean, from long history, I've learned not to expect better from you, so I'm not going to spend much time on this specific response. My comment was speaking in general on a way to proceed on certain material, and you just came back pretending that I said a bunch of stuff that I never said such as claiming that the whole article already is that or falls under that. North8000 (talk) 21:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Guys, Goethean is absolutely correct and the problem with these primary source quotes is typical of the errors numerous editors have made here. WP is not just a collection of facts. We editors are not the ones whose judgment can be relied on to organize and interpret the world's facts. We need secondary reliable sources which place the facts in context and make specific associations among them. It's mayonnaise again, in spades. SPECIFICO talk 21:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we should start with some specific item to discuss. North8000 (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good. This article is a POV fork of Gun politics and should be merged with that article. Two, the history section is a transparent attempt to link gun control with Nazis using an agenda-driven, highly selective reading of history and bad sourcing. There is a gun control article. It is split up by country. The history of gun control by country is there, should go there, and not here. There is no (legitimate) need for this article. — goethean 23:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

That's the overall article and the opposite of what I meant. (Responding on that topic, gun control and gun politics are absolutely fundamentally different) I meant a specific paragraph or set of sentences. North8000 (talk) 00:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)