Talk:Hồng Bàng dynasty

Hong Bang etymology

Hong Bang is not a dynasty. It is a period of time. I'm not sure but seems like "Hong Bang" was named by historians later, not a existent during its own time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sophisticate20 (talk • contribs) 08:22, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Legends and recorded materials

Should the article focus more on the legendary dates (ex. beginnings in 28th century BC) or recorded dates of Van Lang in the Viet Su Luoc history book of the Tran dynasty? (which mentioned Van Lang's creation in the 7th century BC) A summarized English excerpt of Viet Su Luoc on Van Lang and the Hong Bang dynasty can be found here. [1]

Manofedit2 (talk) 03:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

This article seems to take the old legends awfully seriously, with the kings that lived for 700 years and so forth. Kauffner (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

And was it truly a Dynasty? I though it is only an Age (Thời) with full of legends, gods?--Amore Mio (talk) 03:25, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Come on, most of the "historical data" presented in this article is utter rubbish - vietnamese writing systems invented in 3000 BC? Kings that rule for 250 years? I would absolutely love to delete that ridiculous list of rulers, but as a new editor without an account, I would propably only get banned and this joke of an article would simply get restored. So, could someone else do it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.23.64.51 (talk) 13:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You are right about the writing systems. No historians in Vietnam dare to confirm them (they think that it was existed but there are no supporting evidences).

About the list of kings. According to a VNese scholar, a title might be shared by many rulers so you can see a king who was 250 years-old.

This article need to be explained. Even Vietnamese historians doubt that Hồng Bàng Dynasty are really existed so that when describing Hong Bang Dynasty, they always make footnotes which said "this [section] might not be true" or "this section might be a legend".--Amore Mio ^(talk) 17:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Re-write recommendation

This article is full of mangled English and legends confused with history. Not the least of its problems are that section headings don't always seem to have anything to do with the section text (such as the "Creation" paragraph). It really needs to be re-written by someone knowledgeable in the field such that it can be properly cited and worded. Cerowyn (talk) 01:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

BEMIS AVE UPTOWN #ALLDAWAY #NiMeanIt  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.235.89.98 (talk) 15:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC) 

You should also know that this article seems to have been lifted wholesale from VietVisionTravel's page on the "Hong Bang dynasty". I would have included a direct link, but apparently the website is on Wikipedia's spam blacklist. I found it easily enough though, by googling Hong Bang dynasty. It was the second result. --Emishi (talk) 17:08, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Nguyen dynasty which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

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Silk production

On April 1, 2013, someone claimed that Vietnam knew how to produce silk since 2000 BCE. In a later article, the same author stated that it was known in Ly dynasty 1700-1600 BCE. Both of these edits (to articles on viet myths!) are sourced with a quote supposedly from the Book of Han. That book has several dozen volumes (impossible to look up quickly) and was written 1500 or even 1800 years after the alleged fact in a time when there was no possibility of scientific verification of the claim.

That's reason enough for me to delete this dubious statement in both articles. --Enyavar (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

tribal states?

how are "tribal states", as distinct from others, definded? for some ethnologists this sounds like a contradiction in itself or a mixing of two different developmental stages with one skipped... (comp. "band" > "tribe" > "chiefdom" > state" according to Elman Service). elsewhere the social organisation of that time is described as "tribal federation". so please could you say more about that? was a describable development von independent tribes to losely confedereated ones and finally firmly and formalized federated ones, this stage being defined as state? thanks! HilmarHansWerner (talk) 00:59, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Federal? You don't know about Vietnamese history right? There was no alliance with the Vietnamese tribes... Except the Xích Quỷ Army Alliance against the Xia Dynasty... But it disbanded after the Great War of Hong Bang. Kendy Windlyrin Childy (talk) 08:55, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Information (maps and names)

@Qiushufang, I have stated before, but I am doing it again.
So first, the map. The nation (Xich Quy-Van Lang) itself was a myth, a legendary entity. We don’t know how many truth it has, but if Wikipedia is all about “neutral” and “try not to be biased on selecting information”, then why try to delete anything? The maps are based on outside-nonWiki sites, and so does the article about this mythical kingdom. And if you need information of the territories, then Lĩnh Nam chích quái stated: “Âu Cơ và năm mươi con về ở đất Phong Hiệp (Nay là huyện Bạch Hạc), cùng nhau tôn người con cả lên làm vua, hiệu là Hùng Vương, lấy tên nước là Văn Lang, đông giáp Nam Hải, tây tới Ba Thục, bắc tới Động Đình hồ, nam tới nước Hồ Tôn (nay là Chiêm Thành).” meaning “Au Co and fifty children returned to the land of Phong Hiep (now Bach Hac district), together made their eldest son as king, named Hung Vuong, taking the country's name Van Lang, bordering South China Sea to the east, and Ba Thuc to the west, north to Dongting Lake, south to Ho Ton country (now Champa)”
Secondly, the name. The main name for the infobox should be both Xich Quy and Van Lang as in this edit considered that the Hồng Bàng dynasty did change the country name through its rules (again, legendary). Not sure why did you delete that?
End until we have another debate.

— Daeva Trạc (talk) 04:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

None of this negates WP:UGC and WP:RS. There are no reliable sources at all so there is nothing to debate when it comes to neutrality or bias. Qiushufang (talk) 05:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

See 1 and 2 as an example. You can use gg translation or I can help you with that.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 05:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

“Lĩnh Nam chích quái (Hán tự: 嶺南摭怪 lit. "Selection of Strange Tales in Lĩnh Nam") is a 14th-century Vietnamese semi-fictional work written in Han scripts by Trần Thế Pháp.”

“The Hồng Bàng period (Vietnamese: thời kỳ Hồng Bàng), also called the Hồng Bàng dynasty, was a legendary, semi-mythical period in Vietnamese historiography.”

These may help.

— Daeva Trạc (talk) 05:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The Vietnam National Museum of History in Hanoi actually has several maps (Internet Archive's Wayback Machine) of where these bronze drums were found. This all points out to the Red River Delta area and hardly points out to anywhere nearly as large as the map of Xich Quy. Again, Prehistory (as no actual records exist) isn't my strong point. When actual documents lack I prefer to go for any other evidence and the only evidence we have are these bronze drums. I am against including a map of such a large territory in the Infobox as it could be highly misleading to the readers without the proper context (namely that it's the territory ascribed to it by later sources as removed from it as we are removed from those sources). --Donald Trung (talk) 10:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Donald Trung maybe I should also make a de-facto map based on archaeology. Thank you for your edits and suggestions.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Donald Trung: Uhm, i think we should just delete Daeva Trạc's map from WikiMedia, no? I mean, he/she literally uses a Facebook post as a source for this. Billcipher123 (talk) 18:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Billcipher123, You could nominate it for deletion there. I saw the comments on their Vietnamese-language Wikipedia page and I think that user "TUIBAJAVE" is wrong with the assumption that they are "Unserefahne" (their Enwiki Master), but it's a common myth (Internet Archive's Wayback Machine) and a simple Ecosia search turns up many more results. My main issue is against using these maps in Wikipedia articles, I was tempted to revert their edits but I want them to be able to realise the mistake they made and do it themselves, possibly replacing it with a better map (plus in an ongoing discussion it's not wise to immediately start reverting the content until consensus is reached, hence I only wrote "Alleged").
This all aside, user "Daeva Trạc" didn't base this map off of nowhere, they noted that this is actually described to be the boundary of the mythical kingdom in the Lĩnh Nam chích quái. The Wikimedia Commons hosts educational content that is realistically useful in an educational setting, fake maps and fake flags are useful if they are used in other sources and could be illustrate why these maps / flags are wrong. South Korea makes maps of itself claiming the entire Koran peninsula, India even has laws which state that maps must include "the correct boundaries", Etc.
The issue with this periodisation is that this dynasty was invented in the 11th (eleventh) century while the Dong Son culture was only discovered in the 1920's and named by historians in the 1930's. The Hồng Bàng Dynasty can best be treated as a fully fictional entity and how the historical books of Vietnam described them should be contextualised in a manner that properly explains what they said about it and what later historians have discovered. Whether or not we should include a map is probably dependent on if we can easily convey the message that no such historical entity ever existed while stating that later historical records ascribed these borders to this mythical kingdom. -- — Donald Trung (talk) 19:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Billcipher123, I put other websites (included Facebook) as I also used them for references. I mean, based on the description in the books alone 12345, I couldn’t really imagine the map (I can’t just draw a straight line border from place-name A to B, can I?).— Daeva Trạc (talk) 12:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

@Daeva Trạc: At the end of the day, it is still Facebook. I don't know about you but to me, Facebook is NEVER a reliable source, well at least for this dubious subject. Anyway, i think Donald Trung has a point, so at the moment i will not seek further actions against you. Just make sure to use better source for your future work. Cheers! Billcipher123 (talk) 17:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for understanding, @Billcipher123, I have removed them. I just put those in as I also used the already existed maps there as references, beside the official description from those books.

— Daeva Trạc (talk) 19:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

"Removed them"? I'm still seeing these fanciful maps ("Alleged map of") in the article, where half of modern China is painted as Vietnamese. These maps are not worth the pixels they are displayed on - like all area maps of prehistorical cultures that allege rule over souvereign realms of some kind. In such matters, Wikipedia should remain neutral and either show no map at all, or a dot map of archaeological sites classified by the cultures that archaeologists assigned to a dot... preferably with site names in the image description at Commons. Yes, that is harder to produce than just circle a big area and fill it in photoshop: but such a map can then be considered sourced, and it's possible to get verification when someone checks the sources. --Enyavar (talk) 09:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 23 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 05:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Hồng Bàng dynasty → Văn Lang. Preferably, I would like to see these two have their own articles, but @MarkH21 has decided to merge them by his own choice. Văn Lang is the more popular concept when talking about this period. The dynasty's name is less relevant when referring to the whole area under its reign/rule (if any), as well as its population, language, economy, culture, etc. Although both terms have legendary elements, Hồng Bàng basically means chaos and ambiguity, and it is likely that it was never a real name at that time. Meanwhile Văn Lang has a more historical basis, meaning that at least there once existed a socio-political entity etymologically named so. Greenknight dv (talk) 08:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 05:20, 31 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The merge was done 3 years ago because the actual content in the two articles at the time covered the same scope - the legendary/semi-legendary state & period of Vietnamese history.

We would need substantive evidence (based on strong reliable sources, e.g. peer-reviewed academic articles/books) that the two concepts are discussed in sufficiently separate and distinct ways that this warrants having two articles for a WP:SPLIT. Alternatively for a rename, we need evidence that "Văn Lang" is more common among reliable sources than "Hồng Bàng dynasty" for this. — MarkH₂₁^talk 15:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Southeast Asia has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Vietnam has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Xích Quỷ - Guifang

A person named Nhượng Tống believed that "Xích Quỷ" was created by historians based on the story of Thánh Gióng and Guifang. [2][3]

"Người Tầu tự cho mình là văn-minh, và người giống khác là dã-man, là quỷ. Cho mãi đến đời gần đây, họ còn gọi người da trắng là Dương-quỷ, Bạch-quỷ. Như vậy, rất có lẽ đời xưa họ gọi người mình là Xích-quỷ. Vì ta ở phương Nam mà theo thuyết Năm-Hành của họ thì xích (đỏ) là mầu của phương Nam. Nhưng có lẽ nào vua nước ta lại tự đặt lấy một cái tên xấu-xí như vậy? Chuyện này chắc là tự các nhà Dã-sử bịa ra! [...] Họ đã căn cứ vào truyện thần « Phù-Đổng Thiên-Vương » trong sách Lĩnh-Nam Trích Quái của Vũ-Quỳnh. Theo đó thì thần đã đánh nhau với giặc Ân... Và vào sử Tầu, có chép truyện Cao-Tông đời Ân « đánh nước Quỷ-phương, ba năm không được! » Nhà Dã-sử ấy đã tinh-nghịch đổi chữ Quỷ-phương ra chữ Xích-quỷ cho nó thêm mầu-mè, thế thôi!"

(means "The Chinese believed that they are civilized while other groups of people are barbaric, are devil. In recent time, they even called the White people Yang devil, Pale devil. Because of this, there is a chance that our people were called Red devil. Because we locate south [to them] and in their philosophy of Wuxing, xích (red) is the colour of South. But why would our ancestorial kings chose this ugly name [as national name]? This story must have been invented by historians! [...] They created this based on the story of « Phù-Đổng Thiên-Vương » in Lĩnh Nam chích quái of Vũ Quỳnh. This story was about a god that fought the Shang enemy... And in the Chinese textbook, there is a story about Gaozong of Shang « battled Guifang [Quỷ Phương in Vietnamese] for three years » Those historians simply changed the name from Quỷ Phương to Xích Quỷ, that's all!")

vi:Nhượng Tống was a a writer, a journalist, a translator (include Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư), and a member of Việt Nam Quốc Dân Đảng. So should his speculation be put in this article?

— Daeva Trạc (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)