Talk:HMS Thunderer (1872)/GA2

GA Reassessment

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This is a new article (recent substantial expansion) and new GA. Yet it has never adequately sourced significant aspects of the ship's history. Even now, after expansion post-GA, there is a list of significant problems listed on the Talk: page. These are technical issues with obscure histories, but they are key to the record of this ship, and why this ship is of note (it has no service record of note, but demonstrated an important technical innovation and suffered two major accidents which led to technical developments on other ships). The factors that are key to this are unsourced, contradicted across sources in a way that is acceptable in an article generally but is not adequate for a GA, until resolved. Some of the article is also simply wrong - the "12.5 inch" calibre issue has been addressed at talk: and could be considered resolved, but the article as is still states the incorrect version.

I have attempted to expand the article and address these problems as far as I can, but have now been reverted as "excessive detail". I see an underlying problem here too with OWN and GA as hat-collecting, more than article quality. This is certainly not an article as robustly sourced and unambiguous as GA needs. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:49, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

WP:CITEVAR prohibits adding sfn format cites so I converted them to match the existing formats. I also deleted all of the shell data that I'd added earlier as I believe, on further consideration, that properly belongs in the class article. As does the detailed explanation of the hydraulic loading gear, IMO. I had invited interested parties to add a detailed note about the contradictory sources about the caliber of the ship's new guns as I knew that I wouldn't be able to revise it to reflect the additional sources anytime soon, but all Andy did was add some dubious tags rather than a full-blown note with a discussion of the sources, so that somebody (anybody) else would have to clean up the mess. And to take this to GAR rather than follow BRD for a long-term Wikipedian like Andy, who can be expected to know better, just baffles me as to his motivations. And I have no explanation for his failure to follow WP:SOFIXIT.

To reiterate, I have no objection to anyone adding sourced information to the article, although there might be a discussion about whether it's better placed in the class article or here. So I object to his characterization of ownership and hat collecting as I wrote it based on the best information available to me. He found better information and I'd expect him to add it to the article rather than mark it up with various tags. Or take things to GAR rather than to the discussion page.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

SOFIXIT was here. You blanked it all, including the added source. Now your good friend Parsecboy, of many mutual GA reviews passim, is edit-warring to bulk revert this over and over.

"I'd expect him to add it to the article rather than mark it up with various tags." I did add to your article, weeks ago, but clearly you don't like that. Have you even read the talk: page, where I've gone further into this? Yet when I add tags to the article on some small pieces that are now clear errors of fact you then, and only then, get pissed off and bulk-revert me. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:27, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with what constitutes edit-warring before you start slinging accusations around.

And no, Sturmvogel did not "bulk revert" you - the fact that you had to include 4 different edits in your diff above should make that clear. As should a simple comparison of the article before you touched it and now. While we're on the subject of bulk reverts, you actually introduced errors (see for instance the "obvious" you changed to "obvioous", because you could not be bothered to not hit "undo". Parsecboy (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Andy, you added useful info from the Engineer on the hydraulic loading system as well as info from Hodges, most of which I left in place. I deleted one paragraph that I thought was too detailed and thus better suited for the class article as well as all the info on shell weights and penetration that I had originally added. That included your note about no change in shell weight if the gun caliber remained 12 inches. So go ahead and add a detailed footnote on the various sources that discuss the guns and their caliber. Adding text to tags is clearly insufficient to explain the issue and that's why I discount your claim to have fixed the issues that you've raised. The account in Brassey's, I think it was, that Rcbutcher found seems to be the most definitive one to me, but you may think differently.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:41, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Closing comment

Nothing has been posted here for over three months, so I am closing this and leaving the article at GA for the present. I think, given the clear disagreement between Andy Dingley and Sturmvogel 66, that an individual GA reassessment was not the right choice: the WP:GAR page cautions against using an individual reassessment when said individual is a major contributor (debatable) or a decision by him or her is likely to be controversial (almost certainly true); in such cases opt for community reassessment instead. So if any issues remain, Andy Dingley, a community reassessment is still open to you. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)