Talk:Hanpu

Not Hanpu but Hanbok

Hanbok is a Korean, so his name should be pronounced in Korean style. It should be Hambo, not Hanpu. "He came FIRST from Goryeo, but just from Goryeo." 金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來(in the history of Jin(金史))

may we delete this 'original research'?

'From Mount Baektu, Hanpu, who was among the defeated participants, led a group of people into Manchuria in hopes of establishing a new kingdom to glorify Silla. ' Georgezhao (talk) 03:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

A non-existent source

I just deleted a note that cited: Wontack Hong, "How Did the Rulers of the Jin and Qing Dynasties Trace Their Ancestors? The Manchu Origins." This reference was added by an IP on April 4, 2011.[1] Problem: I found no mention of this article on Google and on Wontack Hong's own website (http://www.wontackhong.com/homepage4/data/4002.pdf). I'm concluding that it doesn't exist. If someone finds the real article, please cite the whole reference here so that we can trace it and see what it really says. Thanks! Madalibi (talk) 01:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Rewrote the whole thing

I rewrote the entire page in light of scholarly sources I had access to. Every single claim should now be referenced. There are no footnotes in the lede, but all the information contained in there is referenced in the body of the text. Let me know if I forgot anything! Madalibi (talk) 06:36, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Pre-GA comments

I may review it for GA; for now - some early comments:

• are there no images (depictions) of the subject? How about a monument, inscription or such dedicated to him?
• this article does not mention the word Korea. It probably would be a good idea to add a sentence or two explaining the link between Jurchen and Korea for the readers unafamiliar with the context of Korean history (note that I am more familiar with Korean history, so this is the context of my remarks; if the subject is also relevant to Manchurian/Chinese history, the same applies).
• "Hanpu's burial site" - where is it located?
• Empress Mingyi 明懿皇后 - parenthesis missing, I presume? Would she be notable? Most female co-rulers (queens) are.
• It would be nice to have a Korean speaker review this as well, commenting on the context of ko:함보 and Korean sources.
• Reviewing the article's history, I think the English version was based on the Chinese version zh:函普? If so, similar comments from a Chinese speaker may be helpful.

If responding here, I'd appreciate a WP:ECHO ping. Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 19:12, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Piotrus, and thank you for your helpful comments! Let me address them in order:

• As far as I know, there are no images of Hanpu anywhere, probably because he is not seen as the ancestor of any modern nation. My ignorance isn't a proof of non-existence, of course.
• My sources didn't mention "Korea" per se, so I avoided that term. On your request, I've added a mention of the Korean peninsula, but I'm hesitant to add more lest I fall into OR. I've actually been very careful not to extrapolate on Hanpu's ethnicity, something modern historians know nothing about. A 12th-century Chinese memoir states that the Wanyan clan (which by the 12th century had become the imperial clan of the Jin dynasty [1115–1234]) originally came from Silla, the state that dominated the entire Korean peninsula after 668. The Jurchens themselves, however, claimed that Hanpu arrived from Goryeo, a kingdom founded in 918 that defeated Silla for good in 935. Hanpu could have been a Silla man or a Goryeo man, we just don't know. He may even have been a Jurchen who had lived in Silla and fled north after Goryeo defeated Silla. But this is all speculation: neither the History of Jin nor modern historians shed light on Hanpu's ethnic origins. We're left with geography, that is, names of contemporaneous states, and now a mention of the Korean peninsula.
• Let me investigate about the location of Hanpu's burial site...
• I purposely didn't add a red link to Empress Mingyi. Hanpu himself is a semi-legendary figure about whom very little is known. All that is known (or, rather, claimed) about his empress is that she married him when she was 60 years old and gave birth to his three children. Since all this information is already contained in this article, I don't think it would be helpful to devote a new article to her.
• Korean page. I added the Korean pronunciation of Hanpu's name, which I should have done before. Otherwise the Korean page is not very helpful. The lede simply says that "Hanpu is the founder of the Wanyan imperial clan of the Jin dynasty." The first section recounts the story of his coming to the Wanyan clan at the age of sixty, whereas the longest section cites at length a passage concerning Hanpu in the first chapter of the History of Jin, followed by a home-made Korean translation. The section on the empress and Hanpu's descendants has the same content as the English version. The entire article cites only one source: a KBS (Korean Broadcasting System) "History Special" that discusses a survey book on Korean history. Not an RS, if you ask me.
• Chinese page. A very old English version of this article was probably based on the Chinese article, yes, but I replaced the entire text with sourced information. The only sources for the Chinese article are a 12th-century memoir and a 14th-century official history, the History of Jin that I've already mentioned above. It cites no scholarly studies or reliable sources. The 12th-century Memoirs from Songmo (Songmo jiwen 松漠紀聞), written by a Chinese man who was exiled in Jurchen land in the 1130s, claims that Hanpu was from Silla and already belonged to the Wanyan clan when he arrived among the Jurchens. This story contradicts what modern historians have claimed, namely, that Hanpu arrived from Goryeo (the kingdom that defeated Silla) and was accepted into the Wanyan clan after he put an end to their cycle of vengeance with another clan. I'm hesitant to mention the Memoirs from Songmo, because it would be easy to fall into original research.

I hope my comments will encourage you to do the GA review! Thank you again! Madalibi (talk) 06:43, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Madalibi, thank you for the extensive set of replies. I think a note about 'Memoirs from Songmo would not be out of place, if we can find a RS for it. If it contradicts other texts, that's fine, we can say "According to..., however". I guess I might as well do a GA review, but as a non-native English speaker I'll see if I can find a co-reviewer to look at the prose. I hope that you can find out more about his burial site. If you can read Korean and/or Chinese, have you found any good references in those languages, even if only to cite in further reading? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your stimulating questions, Piotrus, and of course for the GA review! I don't read Korean well enough to find sources in Korean, but I'm starting to find interesting studies in Chinese that discuss the origin of the Jurchen Wanyan clan in some detail. Unfortunately it's 1:20 am where I live, so instead of making a few rushed edits right away, I will wait till tomorrow to integrate the new information into the article. Meanwhile I've added an image to the article as you requested in the GA review. Cheers! Madalibi (talk)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hanpu/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Piotrus (talk · contribs) 13:04, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   No obvious copyvios. Prose is properly written. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:04, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   No problems MoS-wise.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   No problems with references.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   No problems with references.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

   C. No original research:

   No problems with OR.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Seems comprehensive, given the sparsity of sources.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

   B. Focused:

   Focused.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   No issues with NPOV.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   No issues with stability.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Pre-review has taken place at Talk:Hanpu#Pre-GA_comments. I will ask for a prose reviewer at GAN talk. Image wise, the article can pass with no images (per previous comments about no image of the subject), but perhaps we can illustrate it with an image of a relevant subject? A photo of History of Jin, or something like that? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

   Hi Piotrus! I added an image of Wanyan Aguda, the founder of the Jin dynasty, who according to Wanyan oral history was Hanpu's eighth-generation descendant. On your suggestion, I also did some research in Chinese sources. I ended up integrating 7 new reliable sources into the article. I even created two new sections: "Names" and "Hanpu's ethnicity". In my personal view, the concept of "ethnicity" is not particularly useful for that period, especially for Hanpu, since we have so little information on him, but Chinese historians use it all the time, so I thought it deserved to be discussed. For the sake of balance and brevity, I decided to present only their conclusions, not the details of their arguments. Sadly missing are the views of Korean historians, because I could find such sources but not read them. I assume that they would say "Hambo" was from Silla or Goryeo – two states that are part of Korean history – because this is what several primary sources state explicitly. I worded the section on ethnicity in such a way that the Silla and Goryeo points of view will not be discounted simply because I am citing more Chinese scholars who think that Hanpu was a Jurchen all along.

   Ok, that's it for now! Let me know if you have other concerns with the article! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 07:57, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

   Amazing job. As far as I am concerned I am ready to pass it. I'll leave a ping at WT:KOREA to see if anyone wants to help with Korean sources; they would be nice, but are not required for GA-level comprehensiveness. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:59, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

   Thank you! And it was a good idea to leave a note at WP Korea. Let's hope a competent editor will show up to help. Cheers! Madalibi (talk) 12:19, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

   If nobody from WP:KOREA stops by within week, I'll pass it (ping me if it slips your mind). If anyone replies here and would like my quick reply, please WP:ECHO me. Cheers, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

   I'll have a look this weekend. If I don't do it this saturday, ping me on my talk page. —Revi_Discussion 02:58, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

   I had some free time yesterday, and searched library and Google, and I could not find any new reliable source in Korean. (There is two papers, though I had no access to see it.) Everything I found was already in the article. @Piotrus: Feel free to pass it. —Revi_Discussion 03:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

   Thanks for doing that, Revi! It would be great if you could put those two papers in a "Further reading" section. Make sure you Romanize the author's name, translate the title, and include a link if relevant. That way, other editors may eventually find access and use these two sources to further enhance the article. Thank you! Madalibi (talk) 03:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

   I was going to suggest exactly this. I may be able to obtain access to those papers if I get that information - would you (or anyone else) be interested in a copy? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:13, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

   [2] and [3]. If possible, I am interested in copy of it. —Revi_Discussion 11:32, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

   @Hym411: I was able to obtain a copy of said articles. Anyone interested, please email me for details. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:14, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

   Piotrus: I unfortunately can't read them, but I would be very interested to know what they say about Hanpu's ethnicity! Even if I made every effort to write in a balanced way, it would still be beneficial to balance the Chinese scholarly point of view with an explicit Korean POV. Thank you again for your help! Madalibi (talk) 07:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

   Looked two papers. One can be used for other article, and the other's all content about Hanpu is included in article. @Piotrus: Feel free to pass it, and @Madalibi: great job! —Revi_Discussion 13:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

1. Passing. User:Hym411, will you expand the article with the new information from the first article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

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