Talk:Haplogroup J-M267/Archive 5

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the people with Dys388=13 are just persons , and all the clades mentioned are 2 to 3 people at best. only P58 with 99.99% of it the arabs. why make it difficultValentino2013 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not really possible to understand what point you are trying to make with such broken sentences. Can you explain a bit more clearly?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

J1 is a homogenous haplogroup, meaning all of J1 people are in one clade that is of the Arabs, the other clades are made up of 2 or 3 people (7 at best). this article is made impossible to understand. and made to turn off people thinking they are not in the right clade or haplogroup even though they are. a monophyletic clad characterized by YCAII=22-22(semino 2004) I added last time, was changed into (MOTIF ycaii=22-22 AND DYS388=17 cluster) this is not right a cluster of DYS388=17 is DYS388=16 (the majority of DYS388 in J1) a cluster of YCAII=22-22 is YCAII=19-22 and others. There is only 2 YCAII in J1 YCAII22-19 and 22-22. and all the references lead no where what do you mean by Tofnalli 2008 for this guy has 12 studies in that year Am I supposed to read them all, there should be a real ref with a link to the study (title of the study, and some url, or ID such as which journal which year etc), so these refs are good as nothing, and I checked some statements and the ref studies did not say that at all, so I am going to rearrANGE THE article.21:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)Valentino2013 (talk) 21:02, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• When you say that all J1 people are in one clade which is "of the Arabs" apart from "2 or 3 people", please name a source. This seems to me like a comment you will not find in any normal source! (To say the least.) But it also seems to be the core of what your want the article to move towards.
• The article as written before your attempt to change it does not talk about any DYS388=17 cluster. It describes (like the published sources) a cluster with DYS388 values above 15.
• What is your source for saying that there are only two J1 values for YCAII?
• Your edit uses a wiki as a source, in order to give discussion about L147, which appears in no reliable sources yet as far as I know, but which becomes the major focus of attention after your edit. You've already been told this is not acceptable.
• The Tofanelli article is properly described and linked to.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:52, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I added an edit few days ago called (motif YCAII=22-22 clade) , somebody changed it to motif YCAII=22-22 and DYS388=17 cluster clade. this complete nonsense. a cluster of 388=17 is 388=16 and 388=15 even 388=13 all those are in 388=17 cluster. 388=17 is found only in arabs ( but not all arabs barely 3% of J1-arabs have 388=17, finding it in a population means they most probably are of arab descent. YCAII mutate 3steps in one mutation. it is very slow STR , it outlasts haplogroups. its mutation rate is once every 5000 generation (or 5000 births), meaning if a person had 22-22 before Adam (who lived 50000 years ago ), some of his descendents will still be 22-22. semino 2004 giacomo 2004 and all others state there is only two variation 22-22 or 23-19 in all haplogroup J1, have a look at eupedia website here so neat. Tofranelli says 30% of Dagestan Kabushians are j1 (but kabushians are 500 people in total) he said the Dagestan tats (tats means jews they were in the caucasus in the neolithic age!, plus the tats are 10 thousand people, Dagestan Avar! there was no avars in caucasus in the neolithic age they came from sweden 1000 years ag for crying out loud. Tofranelli claims all 400 million arabs branched from the tats avars and kabushians, even though he himself claim in a previous study that several J2 branches ended in europe so he advice don't think the variance of J2 in europe means founding effect. the same situation applied to Caucasus , two j1 immigration ended up in caucasus one neolithic and one arabic and that is they have more variance because they have the old and the new immigrations that started in arabia( the well known semitic migrations that went from saudi arabia north)Tofranelli study is three pages only, compared with semino 2004 which was huge and a land mark. now see this site eupedia: (((J1-p58 ( j1b2) is by far the most widespread subclade of j1. it is typically semitic haplogroup making up most of the population of the arabian peninsula of male lineage. the dominant lineage in J1-P58 is branch J1-l147 which corresponds to the demographic explosion that followed the muslim conquest in the 7th century. l147.1 is the Cohan Modal haplotype of J1 cohanim Jews. the common ancestor for Cohens is Aaron: ))) Semino 2004(((( The lower internal variance of J-M267 in the Middle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two dif- ferent migrations. In the absence of additional binary polymorphismsallowingfurtherinformativesubdivision of J-M267, the YCAII microsatellite system providesim- portant insights.ThemajorityofJ-M267Ychromosomes harbor the single-banded motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the Middle East ( >70%) and in North Africa ( 1 90%), whereas this association is much less frequent in Ethiopia and only sporadically found in southern Europe. Considering the distribution of this YCAII sin- gle-banded pattern—which, besides the usual stepwise mutational mechanism, could be due to a stable mu- tational event (one locus deletion or a single-nucleotide mutation in the primer sequence)—we suggest that the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 potentially characterizes a monophyletic clade of J-M267. A comparable situation is observed within HgI-M170,in which the single-banded haplotype YCAIIa21-YCAIIb21 parallels a biallelic marker (O.S., unpublished data).)biallelic marker means a haplogroup!!!)) low internal variance means 22-22 and 23-19, while only motif 22-22 is a monophyleltic clade, no mention of 388=17 YCAII is so slow it could not be added to a haplotype. it outlast the haplotype (4000 years the atmost age of a haplotype ) and it outlast a haplogroup (10000 years for J1). it could outlast adam if we believe adam was a bottle neck as the evolutionists say. because 5000 generations*25 years for a generation is more than 50000 years the supposed Most Recent Common ancestor for all humans on earth (AKA Adam). Now if an arab came to this wiki page hoping to see that he is arabic, the corrupt statement of 22-22 and 388=17 will make him think he is not arabic and go commit suicide because he have 3488=16 not 17.

I checked the phantom references on the page and they don;t say what the editors say. are these phantom refs allowed? like semino 2004 if you go to Pub Med on ther web where all studies of the world are there you find 10 studies by semino or tofanelli made in 2004, so am i supposed to read 10 studiesValentino2013 (talk) 05:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Your posts are almost impossible to read, and your edits in the articles are also very poorly written. Can you please write in a more clear and careful and compact way. Please take your time and only explain your concerns in terms of real published sources, and not your own unpublished research. (And definitely please stop referring to anything which connects any haplogroup to be a true Arab or true anything! If you are wanting to spread the idea that being in the wrong haplogroup can cause people to think they are not a true Arab then you are spreading nonsense.) I can only understand two complaints you make, and neither of them make any sense:

First, you keep complaining about our article mentioning DYS388=17. It simply does not mention this? It discusses DYS388 being 15 or higher, which includes 15, 16, 17, and so on. This is also what the published sources do.

Second, concerning the Semino and Tofanelli references you complain about, if you look down the page you will see them very clearly marked and linked to...--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Semino, Ornella; Magri, Chiara; Benuzzi, Giorgia; Lin, Alice A.; Al-Zahery, Nadia; Battaglia, Vincenza; MacCioni, Liliana; Triantaphyllidis, Costas; Shen, Peidong (2004). "Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area". The American Journal of Human Genetics. 74 (5): 1023–34. doi:10.1086/386295. PMC 1181965. PMID 15069642. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Tofanelli, Sergio; Ferri, Gianmarco; Bulayeva, Kazima; Caciagli, Laura; Onofri, Valerio; Taglioli, Luca; Bulayev, Oleg; Boschi, Ilaria; Alù, Milena (2009). "J1-M267 Y lineage marks climate-driven pre-historical human displacements". European Journal of Human Genetics. 17 (11): 1520–4. doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.58. PMC 2986692. PMID 19367321. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

why J1 is not mentioned as same as haplogroup m267 in the opening. J1 is known to the public. J1 is significant amount in europe! .5% is average J1 in europe did you count england germany, or just cyprus. l222.2 and YCAII22-22 are inside L147.1 which is inside P58 which is inside M267. these clades are not seperate clades as presented, they are all insided P58 http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/J1-tree.gif the YCAII22-22 &DYS388>15 cluster, is not a clade, it is made up by an editor. why not use J1 instead of J-m267. why most info about J1 is found in j pages and j2 info in J1 page. people come to this page J-M267 think it contains j1 and j2Valentino2013 (talk) 22:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

(((the occurrence of J1-M267 affiliated subtypes at frequencies exceeding a few percentage has not yet been reported. 18 tofanelli himself, plus most new snp are brought into private after it is discovered only 2 or 3 persons have it see FTDNA , the people in the caucasus are mostly p58 but tofanelli claim they have 388=13 so what many arabs in FTDNA data have that tooDYS388 is just one str it mutates really quick compared to a haplotype how could it stay 113 since the neolithic 5000 years ago unchanged, 7:18 am, Yesterday (UTC+1))))

• I agree with you that "J1" shoul certainly be mentioned in the lead. Thank you for putting it back in.
• Concerning eupedia it is not considered a published reliable source for Wikipedia.
• Apart from the ISOGG website, which I think is accepted as a reliable source for naming SNPs and their position, I think there is no other source about L147, and therefore not yet much more we can say about it here? If you have other sources that eupedia and FT DNA please make it clear.
• DYS388 does not mutate quickly at all.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

References

"These north mountain tribes of Subari..."

Certainly, it is a fact that J1 is Hurrian/Subarean haplogroup initially.No the bedouins from Negev or Saudi Arabia! J1(J<IJ) is marker of Hurrian/Subarean nation of Abraham,marker of Clan of God etc.,haplogroup of the Abrahamity.The modern Aramaic-speaking so called "Assyrians"(the Arameans of Iraq/Iran etc.) really have a high percent of haplogroup J1 because they are people of Abraham.The biblical Abraham (aram. Ebrahim) belonged to Hurrians of Mitanni (ancient Ebartu/Naharayna etc. "across the river").His Hebrew nickname was "vagrant Aramean"(The biblical "Abraham's city of Ur" is a rethinking of the Akkadian word urru "early morning", which is a symbol of the Hurrians).The Eastern Hurrians of Upper Messopotamia mentioned in sources as Subareans,and most supreme rulers of Assyrian Empire belonged to the Subarean clans: "The most ancient Assyrian tsars were closely associated with the native subarean population of country...In an equal measure some Mitannian influence is felt in most ancient Assyria" (See Avdiev V.I. Istoria drevnego Vostoka.Leningrad.1953.P.416).In the Assyrian sources, according to an academic Avdiev V.I., "these north mountain tribes of Subari" are mentioned also "habitants of the Upper country"(P. 215).

All Caucasians from Caspian (Wrkan/Gorgan) sea to historical Carpathian-Transylvanian Caucaland with haplogroups J1,J2 are foremost Ḫůrro-Caucasians and Ḫůrro-Caucasian World,according to bibl./akkad./aram. sources "Sons of Beyt Ebartu/Naharayna", "Khorrəim/Subari". The own name of so called Mitannian (also Hurrian) hurritized Aryans was also in cuneiform ḪRY (ḪRJ in works of German authors;See Schmökel H. Die ersten Arier im Alten Orient.Leipzig,1938.S.16), in the Egyptian sources Syria and Palestine are named as "earth of people of Ḫari". The Jews with J1/J2 are in reality semitized Hurro-Mediterraneans (or Hurro-Israelites), J1/J2 among Horasani Persians, Afghans (J2) & Uyghurs(J2) are Hurro-Parthians and J2 among Greeks are Hurro-Mediterraneans etc. It is necessary resolutely to dissociate oneself from more than doubtful Sudaneses, Yemenites, Ethiopians and them similar to.Any normal man sees and understands this difference. Northern Caucasian Nakh-Daghestanian peoples and their neighbours do not speaking Semitic languages and cleanly anthropologically (Balkano-Caucasian race,-according to the terminology of Soviet anthropologists) also very distant from south Arabs and Ethiopians with Somalians.It is real so.If there are some reasons, is needed to explain, why all these people of Balkano-Caucasian race do not Semitic-speaking. And also why they and does not have such Negroid facial features and dark skin as South Arabs,Sudaneses,Ethiopians etc. Sorry,haplogroup J (<IJ) it is not camels,date-palms and Arabs (pure Arabs)! This haplogroup is haplogroup of freedom-loving armed militant Highlanders,snow-capped rough mountains,rapid rivers and a rising sun as a sacred sign of good (hur. hwyrrə/hurri "Morning,Orient,Land of Hurrites"). According to academic Avdiev V.I. "winged sun is typical Hurrian motiv".It is necessary clearly and clear to differentiate Hurro-Caucasians (also Hurro-Europeans,Hurro-Parthians )from all this Pan-Babylonian fantastic nightmare, delirium.

What education and mentally limit people is this article counted on? Who is it wanted to deceive? The Hurrians/Subareans originally a nation number 1 in the Levant, Eastern Anatolia and northern Iraq. Great Armenia (or Eastern Anatolia), Upper Mesopotamia, Syria and partly Palestine all of it initially belonged to the Hurrians and ethnic groups with a noticeable Hurrian presence.The modern Armenians are armenized Hurro-Urarteans and Byblical Ararat mountain is distorted Hurrian word of "Uruatri" that means "Urartu"(See Avdiev V.I. Istoria drevnego Vostoka.Leningrad.1953.P.458 ).

It is a fact thatThe oldest identified J1 sample to date comes from Satsurblia cave (c. 13200 BCE) in Georgia.From this page it is necessary to clean everything that is connected with mentions of "the Arab origin", "the Arab expansion", "Semitic languages", etc. It is unambiguously Caucasian Haplogroup. And the most ancient to her the center in Georgia."The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. The oldest identified J1 sample to date comes from Satsurblia cave (c. 13200 BCE) in Georgia (Jones et al. (2015)), placing the origins of haplogroup J1 in all likelihood in the region around the Caucasus, Zagros, Taurus and eastern Anatolia during the Upper Paleolithic.http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.172.58.15 (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

89.211.50.134

89.211.50.134 made a lot of unsourced and biased deletions and edits. I think they should all be reverted. --Victar (talk) 04:26, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

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Commentary on "Levant and Semitic populations" (See: Hammer & Behar (2009))

Figure 1 from this study suggests that of the 952 Jewish subjects tested, only 7 were of the J-M267 haplogroup, and none of those were Cohanim (all were Israelites). I'm not sure where the 46% figure comes from, and definitely don't see why it would apply to this haplogroup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.38.200 (talk) 19:20, 16 November 2018 (UTC)