Talk:Harper Steele

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2024

Please remove "(formally Andrew Steele)"

Reasoning: Harper's former (or "dead") name is not relevant to her wikipedia page, does not further the publics knowledge base or provide necessary information on this person, and therefore not need to be included. Other sites listing her works or a biography, such as IMDB, does not include her former name. It is generally considered by the trans community that unless otherwise noted or volunteered by the person in question trans peoples name's from pre-transition are not public information or a part of their identity that is appropriate for a third party to share.

Further, The inclusion of her former name heightens the risk for bad actors to employ this information in harmful ways. She is a public figure and a highly visible trans person in a time where the health and safety of trans people are continually under attack by national political figures. This is not a political change, simply one that would protect her as an individual. According the the National Institute of Health as well as all other major national and international health organizations cite deadnaming as potentially harmful and can result in anxiety and harm. Harper has continually asked the people in her life and in the public to be aware of when she has been misgendered or deadnamed and to correct those acts promptly, a fact included in her wikipedia page.

In the case of IMDB, Harpers credits exist exclusively under the Name Harper Steele, and you cannot find her credits under the name Andrew Steele. This is consistent with other industry websites and resources.

Jflowers.099 (talk) 00:36, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Arbeiten8 (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Per MOS:NB, the subject was known prior to the name change and the majority of her credits as a writer are under their old name. The name should stay unless consensus is reached to exclude the name but it should not be a change made without discussion. cyberdog958^Talk 02:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi I'm the editor who created this article and I only included her previous name because of the Wikipedia style guide on the subject (since she had won an Emmy under that name). I support editing it out if that is the consensus. Jessamyn (my talk page) 19:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

According to the Cleveland Clinic, deadnaming is emotionally harmful.Arbeiten8 (talk) 23:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems in line with established Wiki policy to include Steele’s former name if she was notable under it; see the articles on Elliot Page, Caitlyn Jenner, and The Wachowskis as examples of trans individuals who were notable under their dead names. As such, I would support keeping Steele’s former name in the article. ForsythiaJo (talk) 13:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Going back to the original edit request, I feel there is a distinction between deadnamimg a public figure - referring to them in the present using their former name - and acknowledging that a person used a different name at a different period in their life; ie, “Steele worked under the name ____ until year, when she came out as trans and began using she/her pronouns” as distinct from “In 2024 ___ was featured in a documentary”. ForsythiaJo (talk) 13:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't looked at the Wiki gender naming rule when I first removed the deadname. After looking at the rule and seeing its application to Rachel Levine, I don't see myself as having been off. Furthermore, I would defer to mental health professionals at Cleveland Clinic. It smacks of cyberbullying when someone said, "My first name is X," and an editor shows up at the top of the article, saying something to the effect of, "Shut up, we've known you as Y. We're the dictators of your first name." Arbeiten8 (talk) 17:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Unless the editors of Wikipedia have been asked not to use that name, this does not qualify for the Cleveland Clinic's definition of deadnaming. ("When someone uses their old name after being asked not to, that is what we call ‘deadnaming.’") -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

A perspective from a reader on this topic:

I had to come to this talk page in order to find this information. I had not heard of Harper Steele until recently. I wanted to know more about her. It is difficult to do so without using her dead name in order to research further. I came to Wikipedia to intentionally find that information. The only source of that information is on this page. I still found the information on Wikipedia, just in the worst place for it without the same sort of editorial controls, standards, and procedures. This is a misguided effort to be supportive using evidence only tangentially related to the topic of providing information in an encyclopedia. Praversplat (talk) 03:11, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: I posted a notice to the LGBT wikiproject for further engagement here. Another portion of the discussion could be found here on Arbeiten8’s talk page. cyberdog958^Talk 07:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I checked her IMDb page. It lists her former name in the credit list for every credit that was under that name -- 23 of the 24 Writing credits, all 15 of the Producer credits, all 5 of the Additional Crew credits. If you do an IMDb search for the former name, it pulls up several people by that name, as well as Harper, who is listed as "aka" that name. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I recently created an IMDb account. It is a site run by amateurs (unpaid editors)--no offense. If Ms. Steele has petitioned (ask formally in a judicial forum) a court to affirm her female name, then she has asked the public to officially discontinue using a male name to refer to her. Arbeiten8 (talk) 02:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

My IMDb citing was in a response to the post which started this thread and claimed that IMDb did not use her old name. But no, filing for a legal change of name is not a request that the public stop using any former names. And in the arts, we can point to people who have either specifically stated that their prior name is a way to continue referring to them professionally (such as Suzy Izzard) or fashioned their new name in such a way that it maintained rather than eliminated their connection to their old name (such as Jeffrey Catherine Jones.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe she is enby or genderfluid. I was totally unacquainted with this author until I saw the documentary trailer. I still haven't had time to watch it as I have been busy in real life. Therefore, I was disinclined to go back and forth with the editor who questioned my interpretation. Arbeiten8 (talk) 02:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia relies on citation of external sources to document information they contain. If 95% of all pertinent sources use the name by which she was known until recently, the article needs to establish that the person referred to in the sources cited is the person the article is about, and that the works credited to that name are the works of the article's subject. The article doesn't need to, and shouldn't, say more than the minimum necessary to establish that connection, but it is the minimum necessary. In this case, in addition, the subject herself has discussed it publicly. It's public knowledge, not an invasion of privacy. Largoplazo (talk) 20:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I am now watching Will & Harper for the first time. About 4 minutes in, in footage intended for this nationally-available documentary, Harper says "I am not Andrew Steele any more." If she is willing and able to put forth her own previous name in coverage of her, there is no reason under guidelines or otherwise why we should not do the same. It gets by the OP's concern that "unless otherwise noted or volunteered by the person in question trans peoples name's from pre-transition are not public information" -- with this statement, Harper has volunteered the name and made it public information. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 03:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 September 2024

First sentence ("From 1995 to 2008, she served as the head writer on Saturday Night Live, which won her an Emmy Award from four nominations") is garbled. Steele was a writer from 1995 to 2008, being head writer from 2005 to 2008. See List of Saturday Night Live writers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.75.171.117 (talk) 16:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I tried to make it a little less garbled. A few of those sentences had been moved from a different location which is why they seemed odd. Jessamyn (my talk page) 22:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)