Talk:Haruhi Suzumiya (character)

Immediate ToDo List

Well, I find myself being "brash" about making this move on my own. Yet, the discussion seems to lean towards this direction. As a separate article, it will be much much easier to organize material relating to Haruhi. Eventually, the other characters in the series will follow some similar style of organization. For now, I'll leave an initial To Do List:

• 1. Decrease Fancruft
• 2. Increase writing focus towards Haruhi as a character, personality, history, and any other approprate attribute
• 3. Infobox (sorry, I do not know how to start one from scratch)
• 4. Citations and Sources
• 5. An extra 2 or 3 pictures of Haruhi
• 6. Fix where it says she wrote the movie. She never actually wrote anything and just came up with it on the spot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.205.221.117 (talk) 17:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Modeling this page in a similar fashion to other character pages will be of great assistance. KyuuA4 06:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

- Added, edited and clarified much of the information about Haruhi and added a new section about her in respect to Kyon. 5 June 2007.

The personality section for both the revisions were more like background info and contained very little about her personality. I separated it into Background and put in a real Personality section. Added more about Haruhi's past primarily her actions in middle school. Shortened the SoS Brigade section so it becomes more respective to Haruhi. Eliminated the entire Kyon section but made a small note at the end about him since it is relavant to information about Haruhi. However, I don't know if somehing about Closed Space and Celestial Beings should be included as well since she causes them yet its covered on the anime/series page.Fox816

Info boxes created

I've created some basic info boxes, and will begin applying them for the main characters

Feel free to edit the template to add any extra information you think may be useful - Turbanator 23:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Switch to Out-verse Style

Easy yet difficult. Does anyone have ideas in terms of rewording and sentence structure. Not every single bit of info has to be in-universe but just enough to get Haruhi to GOOD Status. I've been going over some of examples of Character articles that are such. The main problem is the lack of in-universe citation and information...Fox816 00:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

No, we need out-of-universe sources for GA status. Any article that is too in-universe, no matter how many references, how good the writing is, or so on, will not pass a GA review. Any information on her development, reception, things based on her, appearances in other media, etc. should be included and be the focus of the article. Read WP:WAF. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Argh, apologies. I had the 2 mixed up. That's what I meant. In terms of in-universe citations wouldn't be needed since it's coming directly from the story and is basically a fanpage. Haruhi has massive attention yet credible information to cite is hard to come by. It's mainly all fan-sponsered. Fox816 23:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Gonna have to competely gut out the text to make it sound out-of-universe. KyuuA4 17:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if I'm using the Talk section right, but I did a lil' work on Haruhi and Kyon. Exciting John Smith —Preceding undated comment added 20:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

=^_^=

I just watched the entire series, and I agree, this entire article and several other in the suzumiya haruhi articles are all from a "somebody who knows haruhi personally" sort of view.

So I fixed it. Offensiveandconfusing 19:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It was written in-universe basically because we had no out-of-universe information available or if ever, translated properly. Newtype-USA came out with some issues that contained interviews with the cast. If anyone has those copies and can include any relevant info from it into the article that would be great. I believe it was in the July-Oct issues.Fox816 20:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You can check out WP:ANIME/M to see who has those magazines and ask them to make scans or something.--十八 01:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Reason for "timequake"

I read somewhere that the reason a timequake occured at the mysterious "3 years ago" point was to protect Haruhi's origin so that no one or nothing could go back in time and prevent her from being born or otherwise existing. I'll keep an eye out for the site where I saw that little tidbit and, if I can find said reference (and also if it's an official fact), add it to the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.216.224 (talk) 08:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

In the anime, stated by Mikuru to Kyon when they were city searching for aliens, the timequake was caused by Haruhi and disabled time travellers from moving beyond that point. As to whether or not it was to protect her is certainly speculation. The translations done by the Baka site are pretty rough, if that's where you read it or if the info you read it used that as a source. Anyways, we'll keep an eye out if it comes along. Fox816 (talk) 17:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Personally, my theory on the "timequake" is much like the theory Itsuki gives for the reason why he and other Espers were created. Haruhi, who I hope I do not need to remind you all has reality warping ablities, wanted to meet Aliens, Time-Travelers, and Espers more that anything. As Itsuki stated, the Espers gained their powers because of the fact the Haruhi wanted to meet them. Also, based on the fact that Mikuru stated that Haruhi herself was the cause of the time rift (as pointed out by Fox816), as well as the fact that Haruhi is not aware of her own powers, it is unlikely that it occured to protect her (in fact, my personal belief system tells me that had Haruhi not been born, simply someone else would have the powers she does). Based on these points, I say this "timequake" occured because Haruhi so wished to meet Time-Travelers, she (unknowningly) created a situation where they could not go back any further than some as-of-yet unspecified date when she was 12-13 years old, which would cause time-travelers to cluster at that time so that she could meet them. Now, before I get any comments asking why, if such is the case, doesn't she go out and find them, I shall again source Itsuki as an answer (quite reliable, isn't he?): Itsuki stated in the anime (possibly the novels, I don't know because I haven't read them and probably won't for a while because I can't read Japanese, Chinese or Korean) that, while Haruhi wishes to meet things such as Aliens, Time-Travelers and Espers, she actually (and suprisingly) does have a more rational and reasonable side to her mind that knows (or as the case may be, thinks it knows) that such things just aren't possible. For my closing statement (if you've had the attention span, let alone cared enough, to read all this), thanks for taking the time to read my unnecissarily long-winded rant on this topic. ChaosVonGin (talk) 03:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is stated in the anime that the reason the time travellers cannot go back in time is because when Haruhi was around 12-13 years of age is when she realized her life was dull and not interesting compared to everyone elses. And so she subconsciously created a new world- One where things like Aliens, Time Travellers, and Espers could exist. And so, the "old world" never existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.41.90 (talk) 20:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually actually, both light novels and anime are legendarily vague on the subject of what's actually going on / has happened in the past. They float numerous hypotheses, sure, but they invite the reader/viewer to pick and choose what to believe. About the only two things they establish with any certainty are, 'Haruhi has extraordinary powers which can drastically affect reality' and, 'three years ago from the start of the series, she unconsciously did something which radically changed the world as the characters in-series perceive it'. Pretty much anything beyond that is only so much speculation, whether it's made by the characters or by the audience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.26.218 (talk) 15:02, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Changed the lead paragraphs

I want something else from the Haruhi series to become a good article (excluding the lists), namely a character page. Kyon is also a good one to try out.

I've edited the first 3 paragraphs to give more information, even quoting Tanigawa, borrowing a few ideas from the Hatake Kakashi GA, seeing as there are precious few anime character GAs.

Feel free to remove it if the changes are too much, I know there will be repeated information, as I haven't edited past that point in the main article, but hopefully this will be a start.

Turbanator (talk) 15:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ponytail

We should also include when right before Kyon kiss Haruhi while they were in closed space, he told her that he liked it when she wore a ponytail and then the day later she did it in a ponytail. Then during the baseball tournament she made Mikuru dress in a cheerleader suit and then said to have her hair in a ponytail but she saw that Kyon was right there so she changed her mind.--71.166.131.20 (talk) 01:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• ...How is that relevant to anything? 68.37.86.5 (talk) 10:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The Picture

I don't really like the picture of Haruhi. I think it'd be better to use one of her with short hair. Agree? Disagree? Zuko Halliwell (talk) 02:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I like the new picture much better. Zuko Halliwell (talk) 19:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

"Haruhiism" section

This section is, to be frank, a complete mess. I attempted to copy edit it, but it contains so many run-on sentences and random subjects that it borders on gibberish. I don't have the necessary information about the character to give the section the complete rewrite that it clearly needs, so I held off on making any edits. If someone that knows the character/subject well could clean up the section (even if it ends up shorter in the process), that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlimX (talk • contribs) 03:52, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this section is a mess. I tried to clean up some of the run-on sentences, but the second paragraph contains a summary of the Endless Eight story, a mention of the critical reception, and a vague reference to how this story relates to Haruhiism. The third paragraph has nothing to do with Haruhi's godlike status or Haruhiism. The final paragraph is really the only one to deal with Haruhiism, but it's almost entirely opinion - the author is just refuting the arguments made on Debate.org. Unfortunately, having never heard of Haruhiism prior to a Civilization mod, I don't really know how to present it in an evenhanded way. If there's going to be a section on Haruhiism, it should probably consist of: Haruhi's powers, how each faction interprets her powers, Haruhi treated as a god in the stories (that's primarily one group of the esper faction), and Haruhiism in the real world. Everything else should be moved to a more appropriate section or deleted. Jojo68 (talk) 17:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I will be attempting to edit this section in a bit. I think that it has a lot of information that is (or at least should be) in other parts of the page, so that information should be deleted. I think if any information not directly related to Haruhiism should be removed from that section. JaykeBird (talk) 18:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

EDIT: I will edit it tomorrow. (Tomorrow for me, anyway.) After looking over this article as a whole, it's all a bit more of a mess than I thought. Some important, if not vital, information about Haruhi is only mentioned in this "Haruhiism" section, so I will be moving that over into a different section, and rewriting it in an out-of-universe style. With that information moved, and small, unimportant details removed, this whole article, I think, will be better. JaykeBird (talk) 04:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

My apologies for not working on this section like I had said. I have been busy. I really do feel bad if others were depending upon me to work on this. If I can find the time and ability, I'll do what I can. JaykeBird (talk) 06:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Tsundere

"Tsundere" doesn't literally mean "hot and cold". Its meaning is somewhat similar to the figurative meaning of "hot and cold", however, it's not the same. From the Wikipedia article on Tsundere: "... that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time. The word is derived from the terms tsun tsun (ツンツン?), meaning to turn away in disgust, and dere dere (デレデレ?) meaning to become 'lovey dovey'." So rather than the bipolar-like roller coaster of indecisiveness characteristic of "hot and cold", "tsundere" displays slow but gradual warming up from "tsun tsun" to "dere dere". My main beef with the wording though is that it seems to imply that the Japanese expression "tsundere" literally means "hot and cold". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.36.194.63 (talk) 13:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

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Removal of content which is present in the source materials

I would like to know the reason for the removal of the following portion from the article:

She also refers to Mikuru as "a total little cutie" and often sexually harasses her. However, the full extent of her interest in Mikuru is unclear. Haruhi also tells Kyon in the first episode that she would be interested in anyone regardless of their gender or species, provided they are not "ordinary humans."

All of that content is present as is in the source material. What makes the inclusion of that part in the article not valid? Especially when other parts of that same chapter (she having short relationships, discussed two pages before [page 20] to her saying she's interested in anyone as long as they're not ordinary human beings) are completely fine in the article. 181.9.168.76 (talk) 00:01, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The problem with that content is that the sole reason for its addition was to argue that Haruhi is bisexual or pansexual (the edits adding the content, this one for example, are explicit about this) by taking statements she made out of their original context and placing them in a sexual context, creating the deception that she was talking about her sexuality. The content also omits out comments Haruhi made about her sexuality in the same chapter/episode, in which she unambiguously indicates that she is heterosexual. Simply because a statement is true when looked at in isolation does not mean that its usage is truthful.

And without the bisexual/pansexual insinuations, the content becomes simply indiscriminate trivia. Mentioning every last thing Haruhi ever said is beyond Wikipedia's scope. Martin IIIa (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The content also omits out comments Haruhi made about her sexuality in the same chapter/episode, in which she unambiguously indicates that she is heterosexual.

Would you mind sharing the exact quote by her using the word "heterosexual" or "straight"? Either from the book or the anime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.9.168.67 (talk) 00:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd rather not get into that here, since it's not really relevant to the article. With or without Haruhi's indication of her heterosexuality, there is an absence of evidence for her being bisexual or pansexual. Martin IIIa (talk) 02:08, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The lack of a source backing up that particular statement is very interesting, to say the least.

there is an absence of evidence for her being bisexual or pansexual

If that's true, what's the problem with those fragments staying up. The quote highlights her obsession with the unusual, and Haruhi's attitudes towards Mikuru are present in several installments of the light novels. And given that no mention of her sexuality is made, it contradicts nothing from the article. If I recall correctly, there's no Wikipedia policy that says "It's okay to remove content from the source material if it has certain implications." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.9.168.72 (talk) 02:20, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

It's hard to make sense of what you're trying to say here; you completely change your train of thought with every sentence. But as to "what's the problem with those fragments staying up", go back and read my original post in this thread, which thoroughly answered that question. Martin IIIa (talk) 01:41, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Read again.

go back and read my original post in this thread, which thoroughly answered that question

Okey.

The problem with that content is that the sole reason for its addition was to argue that Haruhi is bisexual or pansexual

Haruhi's attitudes towards Mikuru are featured very often in several light novel volumes. Haruhi's quote highlights her obsession with the unusual, which is a core key of her character. It's pretty difficult to assume good faith and not assume that you want that content removed from the article exclusively because you don't like the implications that they may carry.

And without the bisexual/pansexual insinuations, the content becomes simply indiscriminate trivia.

See above.

by taking statements she made out of their original context and placing them in a sexual context

You never elaborated on how they are out of context.

The content also omits out comments Haruhi made about her sexuality in the same chapter/episode, in which she unambiguously indicates that she is heterosexual.

No evidence for this statement was provided upon request.

Greetings.

181.9.168.50 (talk) 01:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

"Haruhi's attitudes towards Mikuru are featured very often in several light novel volumes. Haruhi's quote highlights her obsession with the unusual, which is a core key of her character. It's pretty difficult to assume good faith and not assume that you want that content removed from the article exclusively because you don't like the implications that they may carry."

Coyly pretending that the removed content has nothing to do with insinuating that Haruhi is bisexual after the edit summaries adding the content repeatedly and explicitly said that that was their reason for adding it does not help your case, nor does your strained accusation of bad faith.

The removed content neither adequately explains Haruhi's attitude towards Mikuru nor says anything about her obsession with the unusual that the article doesn't already say. Nor are either of those purposes best served by putting the content in a paragraph discussing Haruhi's romantic attitudes.

"You never elaborated on how they are out of context."

If you don't even know what context they appeared in, you shouldn't be arguing over their inclusion or exclusion. Haruhi was talking about her desire to encounter paranormal beings, not a desire to have sex.

"No evidence for this statement was provided upon request."

Because as I already stated, the evidence is irrelevant.

At this point I must be blunt and point out that the bulk of your replies here have been asking me to answer questions that I have already answered and/or you must already know the answer to if you have any familiarity with the source materials. If you have any point to make, make it; otherwise it looks like you're simply trying to prolong the discussion.

Martin IIIa (talk) 03:25, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The removed content neither adequately explains Haruhi's attitude towards Mikuru

It is still a part of the character.

Nor are either of those purposes best served by putting the content in a paragraph discussing Haruhi's romantic attitudes.

They can be moved somewhere else if becessary.

Haruhi was talking about her desire to encounter paranormal beings, not a desire to have sex.

Can you point out when the word "sex" or any related word was used in the relevant part? Diff for context. And the relevant part:

Haruhi also tells Kyon in the first episode that she would be interested in anyone regardless of their gender or species, provided they are not "ordinary humans."

Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see it.

Because as I already stated, the evidence is irrelevant.

The removal of the content was justified because it implied things that contradict an scene where "she unambiguously indicates that she is heterosexual." Evidence to prove the existence of said scene was not provided so far.

Regards.

181.9.168.67 (talk) 03:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, once again my being a nice guy has accomplished nothing except to give the wrong impression. The issue here is very simple: The removed content is fan theory, which is expressly forbidden on Wikipedia by WP:No original research (in particular by WP:SYNTH). That is the only justification required for its removal. My taking the time to explain that this particular fan theory is based entirely on misrepresentations of the source material was strictly a courtesy. I do not need to repeat my explanation as many times as you ask, I do not need to repeatedly quote back to you your own declaration that the purpose of the content is to argue that Haruhi is bisexual, and I do not need to show you proof that Haruhi has some sexuality other than bisexual. The WP:BURDEN is on you to provide a reliable source which directly states that Haruhi is bisexual without the need for creative reinterpretation. If you don't have such a source, then posting here is a waste of your time. Martin IIIa (talk) 23:46, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The removed content is fan theory

Given that you think that pointing out that Haruhi describes Mikuru as cute, and sexually harasses her, and that her quote about being interested in anyone regardless of species and gender (things with plenty of evidence within the source material) is fan theory now, there's nothing more to do. Feel free to post the ISBN of those excised versions. 181.9.168.95 (talk) 00:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)