Talk:Hawkeye (1994 TV series)

Requested move 28 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus is clear, and well-supported by discussion of the potential ambiguity in the phrase "TV series". BD2412 T 16:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

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Hawkeye (TV series) → Hawkeye (1994 TV series) – The article name is too confusing because there is also Hawkeye (miniseries). This article's name was originally Hawkeye (TV series) , moved to Hawkeye (1994 TV series) in 2019, but moved back to Hawkeye (TV series) with no discussion in 2023. However, since then many articles, including List of Hawkeye supporting characters and Clint Barton, have wrongly linked to this article, thinking this article is Hawkeye (miniseries). Since the current disambiguation is not working, this article should be moved back to Hawkeye (1994 TV series). saebou (talk) 13:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: WP:SMALLDETAILS applies in this instance. If there are incorrect links, then those should be corrected rather than adding further unnecessary details in the disambiguation. The similar article titles are already covered by the hatnote in this article and are correct in the Hawkeye DAB, so the fact that some links were not updated/corrected should not be the sole basis for an article's title to be moved. Trailblazer101 (talk) 14:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I just corrected the four instances where the link was incorrect (which were only added by IPs earlier this year), so it was clearly not as much of an issue because all of the other articles pointing to "Hawkeye (TV series)" are correctly referring to this 1994 series. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support. A miniseries is a TV series. The page was moved without discussion on 14 August 2023 based on a personal opinion of how the title should be. The title should be restored to its previous status-quo title if this ends in a no-consensus (this RM shouldn't have even been opened as WP:RM/TR is the correct route here). Gonnym (talk) 16:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

  WP:BOLDMOVES are allowed and not everything has to be vetted before being changed. Aside from the 4 brief instances from this year where the wrong link was added, this has not been an issue and the proper hatnotes and disambiguations have been provided. Courtesy pinging @InfiniteNexus, Favre1fan93, and Alex 21: as all have been involved in these moves. By all intents and purposes, a miniseries is a type of TV series, though the SMALLDETAILS do not make this enough to warrant adding the year back when having it as a redirect suffices. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)#Series television and WP:TVYEAR, which show that "(miniseries)" is an acceptable disambiguation alternative to "(TV series)" when applicable, with years only being necessary if further disambiguation is required. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  There are several previous examples using (miniseries) and (year+TV series) to avoid confusion between two TV shows. For example, "Hercules" (Hercules (miniseries) and Hercules (1998 TV series)), "Barbarians", (Barbarians (miniseries) and Barbarians (2020 TV series)), and "Elvis" (Elvis (miniseries) and Elvis (1990 TV series)). I think this kind of disambiguation has also been acceptable in the naming conventions of TV shows. --saebou (talk) 19:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support (STRONGLY) per nom. (1) there was no discussion, and (2) a miniseries is a type of TV series, making this is a SUPER ambiguous title. Paintspot Infez (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  One is a miniseries (short run) while the other is a long-form TV series. This is not that ambiguous and follows the TV naming conventions to a tee. Not all moves require a discussion when they are BOLD. Further disambiguation would only be needed if the Marvel miniseries had a second season, which it currently doesn't. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support in the heading text this source makes reference to "TV series" and the miniseries has 19,713 views compared with only 1,607[[1]] for the 1994 one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  One cherry picked reference is not enough justification for a page move, and the fact that the miniseries article has far more views is proof that it is more sought after than this one. Not sure how that supports this being clearly ambiguous when the vast majority of readers and views point to readers navigating to what they are looking for. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  Most people tend to get to Wikipedia articles via Google etc so it may not be getting a huge number of people arriving in error but its confusing to people searching or linking. As noted a miniseries is a type of TV series. Partial disambiguation generally violates WP:PRECISE and the principal of least astonishment. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  The fact that a miniseries is a type of TV series should be sufficient enough of a a precise distinction of its own. There are only two series titled "Hawkeye" and one is a miniseries. The necessary hatnote is already in this article in case anyone does get confused, though the vast majority of our readership does not seem to be having an issue finding the distinction between these two articles. The naming conventions should be upheld first and foremost over what others think without much merit or standing. "Miniseries" is precise enough that this one does not need further disambiguation, per the TV naming conventions. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  The fact a miniseries is a type of TV series is a reason to disambiguate completely. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)#Series television doesn't say anything about miniseries not being ambiguous with other TV series it only says that "miniseries" can be used according to common usage. WP:TVYEAR makes reference to using country or year if there are multiple of the same type which could suggest we use a different method but there doesn't appear to be a type of TV series we can use so using the country or year seems most appropriate. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom though I would also suggest moving the other series article to Hawkeye (2021 TV series). ~~ Jessintime (talk) 14:44, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  The "(miniseries)" DAB for the 2021 series was used per a consensus and that type of DAB is acceptable per the TV naming conventions, which is what we should be basing any move requests off of, not personal opinions of slight confusions. A miniseries is not the exact same as a TV series. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  I read all six of your posts here before I commented. Do you really think commenting for a seventh time will change my or anyone's mind? ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  A miniseries is clearly a type of TV series. They are not different; one is a subset of the other. You cannot use a subset as a disambiguator against the wider set; that is no disambiguation whatsoever. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:31, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television). Reason: Relevant naming conventions for this topic. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: The year is only needed if there is two "Hawkeye (TV series)", which there is not. The other article is at "Hawkeye (miniseries)". - adamstom97 (talk) 15:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: The 2021 Marvel Studios project initially followed "TV series" dab naming conventions, thus the distinction with the years both at this one and the 2021 series. However, given more information that has come out about the Marvel Studios one being crafted as a finite miniseries without the intention for continuation (as "TV series" would imply), it was moved to "miniseries" disambiguation as better reflective of the series (and a disambiguation modifier that can be used), thus resulting in this 1994 project moving back to solely "TV series" dab. The use of hatnotes is correct to navigate readers to where they are going given the fact that someone searching for "Hawkeye TV series" and ending up here might be looking for the Marvel Studios project. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no other article titled Hawkeye being disambiguated with "TV series", in accordance with WP:NCTV. If a reader was looking for the 2021 miniseries and landed on the article about the 1994 series, all they have to do is click once on the link in the hatnote. If they landed on the disambiguation page, they also have to click once. Ergo, there is no obvious benefit to pointing this to a disambiguation page. The fact that the page was moved without discussion is not a valid rationale: a BOLD move, like any BOLD edit, has WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS if left unchallenged for a reasonable amount of time. The existence of incorrect links, which can easily be fixed, is also not a valid justification. InfiniteNexus (talk) 06:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

  No other article that uses the "TV series" is irellevant. What is relevant is that the other is also a type of TV series. Many articles have multiple identifiers for example Madonna (entertainer) (when she was qualified) see this comment and the choice of a qualifier (or even if an article uses natural disambiguation) generally has no relevance with respect to if further disambiguation is needed, see WP:ATDAB. The 2021 one did not suddenly stop being a TV series last year just because we decided to use a different qualifier. Readers looking for the 2021 one are not suddenly going to think oh of course the 2021 one is a miniseries therefore "Hawkeye (TV series)" means the 1994 one. Readers who come to Wikipedia expect our titles to be completely disambiguated and will be confused by the current set up. WP:NCTV makes no reference to miniseries not being ambiguous with the "TV series" qualifier. The very fact that editors are making incorrect links is anyway strong indication of the ambiguity, if editors are linking to the wrong article its obvious that readers (who are less likely to know our NC) will be confused. I agree bold moves are fine but given this one was against policy we need to revert it. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:39, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. A miniseries is also clearly a TV series (nobody could possibly argue it was not, surely, given our article says A miniseries or mini-series is a television show or series that tells a story in a predetermined, limited number of episodes?), so we currently have no disambiguation whatsoever. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:33, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Given the ambiguity around what a miniseries actually is, I would also rename Hawkeye (miniseries) → Hawkeye (2021 miniseries) or, better still, Hawkeye (2021 TV series). We should not be in the business of smugness but rather of assisting our users. I would hazard a guess that most people don't have a clue what the difference is between a miniseries and any other TV series, or actually have another idea of what a miniseries is (i.e. a two- to four-part series, which is what it used to commonly mean and what many people, including me, still think of when seeing the term). -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support it's pretty obvious that a miniseries is just a type of TV series. We need a clearer distinction here. Waqar💬 18:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support. In addition to "miniseries" being a subset of "TV series", the article miniseries says that "In Britain, miniseries are often still referred to as serials or series", so there is an MOS:COMMONALITY reason not to treat "miniseries" and "(TV) series" as mutually exclusive terms. Ham II (talk) 13:15, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support per Crouch, Swale; and Ham II. Queen of Hearts ^talk 14:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.