Talk:Heal's

A reviewer for the Times described the works as 'ghastly'

I found this claim on the Heal's website [1]. I have searched The Times for the "ghastly" comment without success. Their main review is generally positive: "Naked And Unashamed". The Times. 4 September 1919. p. 13.

The "ghastly" phrase is misleading. I will delete the phrase and add references to the reviews in The Times and in The Manchester Guardian. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:13, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Promotional

This page reads like a brochure or a press release and needs to be cleaned up. Hans RayBan (talk) 10:32, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

@Hans RayBan:, I disagree. Most of the phrases that you appear to object to are well-sourced. Wikipedia articles should explain why their topic is important and try to draw readers into the subject. Heal's is not 'just another store', it was significant in the history of twentieth century British furniture and we should try to make this clear. You have removed significant and worthwhile material, some of which is reliably sourced.

1. This edit removed "For over a century, it has been known for promoting modern design and employing talented young designers", with the edit summary Remove promotional statement not covered by source. Did you check this source? I added this text, and I based it on the cited source which I remember included the phrases "promoting modern design" and "talented young designers", or equivalent. Unfortunately the relevant page is no longer available from Google Books and I failed to keep a copy of the page. I added this to the lead section to establish the notability and importance of the topic. The source is a book published by the Victoria & Albert Museum, which is the very best authority in this area.
2. This edit removed the section on Ambrose Heal, who was a notable figure and was central to the development of Heal's. The section might be toned down and trimmed slightly, but it merits its place.
3. This edit deleted the 'Acquisition by Storehouse' paragraph. The ownership history of a company is important. This should be restored and tagged {{citation needed}}.
4. This edit deleted the section on 'Acquisition by Wittington Investments'. Again, the ownership history is important and this should be retained. The new owner's intentions for Heal's are also relevant. This sentence might be regarded as promotional, but I think it would be ok it it were sourced. Wittington Investments' ownership is confirmed on their website.
5. This edit deleted 'flagship' from 'The flagship Tottenham Court Road store', describing it as promotional language. 'Flagship store' is a neutral term identifies this as Heal's principal store, not one of the branch stores. This term is also used in Bloomingdale's.
6. This edit removes the phrase is a distinctive modern building, immediately hailed as a landmark in shop architecture. This is an architectural description and is probably justified. It should be retained and tagged with {{citation needed}}.
7. Another deletion in the same edit leaves wording that indicates that the author Dodie Smith sold the building, whereas she only sold its bronze cat. We should either keep or delete everything about the cat. I would keep it as it is a colourful episode concerning a notable person. We should not add trivia, but an occasional lighter section makes the encyclopaedia more approachable.
8. This edit to Mansard Gallery deleted the text "it was where Aldous Huxley first met Virginia Woolf, and where sets of furniture were presented to Mies van der Rohe, Marcel Breuer and Maxwell Fry." (Sourced to University College London.) These are major artistic figures. It is noteworthy that they had a connection with what you might think was an insignificant art gallery in a department store. It is not 'trivia' as you indicated in your edit summary. You tagged the paragraph but you had deleted the citation that was the its source.

Please discuss these edits. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:17, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

In the absence of a response I have reverted these edits. Verbcatcher (talk) 14:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher I disagree around the usage of 'For over a century, it has been known for promoting modern design and employing talented young designers'. You're using a book that is over 20 years old to claim that something still is the case. News coverage over the last few years seem to simply be around store closures, poor quality and a failed buyout. In any case it is slightly troubling that this reference is based on your memory of something you read in this book rather than an actual reference in the book - the book might not say this at all. I would think this reference needs a source that's more verifiable than someone's memory, needs modifying to say 'was known for' or needs removing entirely. Itsfini (talk) 13:54, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

@Itsfini: the sentence was not based on my memory of the book; I had the specified page in front of me when I wrote it. Sources for Wikipedia do not need to be available online, see Wikipedia:Offline sources. This source is verifiable: the book is available in libraries[2] and a e-book version is still available.[3][4]

However, I take your point that the book is old, and that Heal's reputation may have since declined. To address this we could change the sentence to:

• In 2001, a guide published in association with the Victoria & Albert Museum wrote that for over two centuries Heal's had been known for promoting modern design and for employing talented young designers.

The preview pages on Amazon say that the book was published 'in association with the Victoria and Albert Museum', and that they own the copyright.[5] This indicates that the V&A endorsed its content. I would change the citation to indicate this

• Elizabeth Lomas, ed. (2001). Guide to the Archive of Art and Design, Victoria & Albert Museum. Routledge, in association with the Victoria and Albert Museum. p. 132. ISBN 9781579583156.

Verbcatcher (talk) 20:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Apologies for the confusion as to whether the book was consulted or not. The update you suggest seems like a very reasonable update/change to me; I'll make it now. Itsfini (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

@Itsfini: pages 132-134 of the V&A book are currently included the Google Books preview (at least from where I am).('search in this book' for Heal's) The relevant sentence is

• Under the leadership of Ambrose Heal (1872 - 1959), who joined the firm in 1893, Heal's became renowned for promoting modern design in Britain by encouraging and employing talented young designers.

On reassessing this, I see that my addition of 'For over a century...' was not quite accurate, as the source only covers the period 1893 until 1953, when Ambrose Heal was chairman. I will adjust the sentence accordingly. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Intro written directly by marketing

"talented designers"? 51.9.166.254 (talk) 20:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Please see the discussion in the preceding 'Promotional' section. The phrase " talented young designers" is sourced to a publication by the Victoria & Albert Museum, which is the very best authority in this area. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)