Talk:Heimat (film series)

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Someone who has seen the Heimat films and/or has access to the videos should write up a list and summary of each of the plot segments. Information about these films is pretty hard to find on the internet and more detailed information about the films would be very useful. 131.122.105.209 16:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Update: the German page has lots of info. If anyone can translate German there's is a lot that can be used from that source. 131.122.105.209 16:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I added some info on the episodes, characters, and criticism. Hope that helps. I just finished watching the episodes and making the character list helped me resolve some things that weren't clear to me. The information is definitely hard to find on the Internet except in bits and pieces. -Rolypolyman 18:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

@131.122.105.209:, @Rolypolyman: Hey, ten years later. I have Heimat on DVD, and inside is a booklet with a full summary of each "episode". I could use that as inspiration to expand on information not present.

Also, I have noticed majority of this focuses on the first one, I will be planning to watch the second and third film (& later prequel) so I could make notes for characters that appear in that, plot, etc. It will be a big task though, but I am watching for my own leisure 82.44.112.108 (talk) 08:25, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't agree with this sentence

In the article there is currently this sentence: "There is no treatment of the hyperinflationary spiral of the 1920s, the Great Depression, or the Jewish Holocaust of WWII."

This isn't really accurate. Characters in the 1920s episode refer to the inflation and cost of items, and periodically characters afterward will refer back to the hyperinflatonary period of the 1920s. Characters in the early 1930s refer to hardships they're facing, and characters in the early/mid Nazi era describe how better business is for them than it was in the earlier period. Moreover, Wilfried refers directly to the Holocaust in a WWII-era episode, and other characters refer to it more obliquely (Lucie, for example, in the 1945-1947 episode). The point of this series is to see the major events in Germany through the very specific prism of a remote, small village, so it's not Heimat's place to treat the Holocaust in the way a documentary on WWII, for example, would.

Personally, I think Heimat made a mistake by putting Otto in the Germany army despite his mother being Jewish (which, um, also makes him Jewish), which seems incredibly unlikely considering the lengths to which the Nazis went to determine who had "Jewish blood" in Germany, but that is different from saying the series has "no treatment of the Jewish Holocaust of WWII." It does treat that subject, but only from the perspective of a village not near any concentration camps. It's not really reasonable to expect an expose of, say, concentration camps in Poland when the perspective of the series is by definition so limited. Do you see what I mean? Can we work on rephrasing this section? Moncrief (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

@Moncrief: Nine years later, I agree too. It does say now "limited treatment", but it could be worth noting what you have already said linking direct to film? 82.44.112.108 (talk) 08:29, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I disagree about Otto. There is a book called Justiz Im Dritten Reich in which a case discussed is that of a Jewish man who was executed for making an Aryan woman pregnant (apart from that, I've been too lazy to read it). I was given a copy of it by the man who was born from that liaison. He was inducted into the Hitler Youth, but was too young to serve in the army in the war. Later he became a lawyer. He died only a couple of years ago. I am still friends with his sister who lives in London. Fuficius Fango (talk) 08:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Criticism ?

Can we talk about criticism when the only source is a few page in a historical review ? I mean, "has been criticized", for me, it means that a certain number of people or famous cinematographic review has criticize this. Kenneth Barkin may be an good historian, but what I read is just an opinion, clearly not the truth.
"Heimat has been criticized for its selective interpretation of German history."
Well, when you make a movie that cover 60 years of history, you have to be selective, isn't it ? This movie is quite long enough.
"There is little treatment of the hyperinflationary spiral of the 1920s, the Great Depression, or the Jewish Holocaust of WWII."
I have not seen everything, but I clearly disagree with the last part. I remember an officer, at a family meeting or something, talking about his colleagues working at the crematories, and his wife look at him like : "Don't talk about that in front of the children." I think it's clearly what could have happened in a small village at the time.
Its themes of decadent American values and Western corporate greed rising up against the innocent simplicity of the Hunsrück have been seen as "resurrecting a discourse that prevailed in the nineteenth century about the modernization of Germany's society and economy ... no compromises or delicate balances are possible"
"has been seen" = an opinion. Really this criticism is unfair. Look at the imdb comments and you'll see this is not the film people have seen. (heimat-viewer (talk) 16:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC))

• Well Wikipedia isn't really the place to criticise an individual review of Heimat; really this section should be there to give an overview of what published criticism there has been of this film. Trouble with this section of the article is that the actual published reviews of Heimat (as well as the feedback from members of the public) have been overwhelmingly in the positive, yet the entire treatment of criticism here is a whole bunch of paragraphs devoted to one single negative review, and a mention of a single film director's opinion (okay, it's Great Kubrick Almighty, but still) later on in a seperate 'Reception' section. Aim Here (talk) 08:01, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

It does look like here, as if there was criticism from loads of people, due to the bulk it takes up in Reception. It could be changed, but it is hard to even find reviews even now, especially in English. There will be a lot more in German somewhere. We can't mention public reviews listed on Amazon or IMDB can we? As there could be something there if we can. 82.44.112.108 (talk) 08:32, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

This is a TV-series

The way the article currently presents it, one could easily believe this is actually movie made for a movie audience. As everyone know all three series were produced for and first shown on TV, even if they were filmed with filmcameras and also have been shown at special movie screenings later on. However, everyone knows how we define TV-series and movies and this one should be easy. Please change. /M96hardh (talk) 08:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

It is an epic movie, that for certain countries (and later DVD) was edited into more reasonable sized chunks to fit TV schedules. Karl, who serves as the story narrator, his "polaroid" recaps were made for the TV. But it was shown originally as a movie, even classified as a whole such if you'll see the BBFC. However, you would also see the sequels are classified in their seperate "episodes" for cinema release. 82.44.112.108 (talk) 08:35, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Expansion

Because of the films significance (because of its running time) it should be expanded the plot, production information, reception, and significance.--Paleface Jack (talk) 00:56, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Major Page Update Coming Soon

I have seen that the Heimat page hasn't been very active or updated. Barely 250 edits I think I saw in past decade. I myself have been watching them the past few months and noting everything down, as well as other information that will be incredible helpful to expand production and reception, as there is a lot of great detail in a booklet that came in the DVDs of Heimat 1-3.

On my sandbox I have been re-creating this page and its "List of Heimat episodes" where once I have completed in several weeks I will update it all onto this main page. It will include detailed synopsis for each film and it's "episodes" it was cut down to for easier viewing, and also the helpful information (Development, pre-production to release & reception) from the booklet in my DVD boxsets and some other websites.

I am writing this purely to inform anyone who might look at these talk pages, as I feel it needs a major update as it is quite lacking at the moment, in detail and information linking to the 'sequels'. Heimatchen (talk) 09:15, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

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Major Page Update Finally Here

After several months of watching the films and countless researching online and in books, I have finally managed to update the majority of the page. I have completed a great addition for "Heimat", but still in the process of Heimat 2. I will update and likely finish with Heimat 2 over Christmas/New Year. I will follow into Heimat 3 likely in 2018. "Fragments" and "Home From Home" I imagine will be a much easier task as much smaller 'films'. Heimatchen (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

NOTE: The UK remastered Blu-Ray release has been delayed from December 2017 to February 2018. The special features listed provides more insight into the film, including the resoration, Marita B acting in it and features a booklet. I love the film anyway, so will be buying this and any more helpful information at that time I will include on the respective 'Heimat' pages. Heimatchen (talk) 19:39, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

NOTE: This Blu-Ray has now been delayed again until April. Means delayed edits/extra info/citations. Heimatchen (talk) 09:28, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

NOTE: Will be updating this page slowly, as do a re-watch and note taking for references from books, websites, documentaries, interviews etc. This will be a slow process but is a long time coming. Will also update episode plots where necessary. (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

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"Multiple Issues"

"-THIS ARTICLE HAS MULTIPLE ISSUES - PLEASE HELP improve it OR DISCUSS ON TALK PAGE-

• Article needs citations for verification.

• Article may require copy editing.

• Article possibly contains original research.

• Article may contain excessive detail that only interests specific audience"

I have just addressed a similar issue on the "episode guide", please see there for some comments which may relate here.

I first posted a while ago that the entire article was a work in progress. I have been watching through films, making notes on the stories and researching background information (there is very little online) and also in magazines etc.

Firstly, regarding "verification" and "original research". I understand Wikipedia needs sources to back up any claims etc as it can be classed as OR. The fact is there is very little online sources to help me. I have found a few scattered articles, some of which contain amazing information that the page can use but I do not believe you can use the same reference multiple times? In the "Heimat" boxsets I own, each contains a booklet detailing the plots, characters, background, development, production, release, reaction - practically everything. I have sourced these booklets under "development" or "production". It contains very helpful information on the development of the entire films. Most of the 'production' information I have been getting from there. I can understand upon viewing that as there are not many references next to this section it can appear as Original Research, but it is not. It is simply from these booklets for some of the information. I could reference the exact pages of each 'source' and I'll gladly put that up so it breaks down the reference using one book?

About "excessive detail that interests specific audience". I feel this 'issue' is more from the editors own view and opinion. Talking frankly here, when does anything not interest a specific audience? The audience for the Star Wars page will have information about the movies and their development that will interest it's audience or similar, so this page here will have information that will interest viewers of Heimat. I do not believe this is a true issue. And regarding the "detail", do you have any certain aspects you are not sure on or ideas of what could be moved, (perhaps onto a difference page)? If not, I feel the claim is very vague and unhelpful. And once again, the "specific audience" I do not believe to be a true issue as I believe it can be argued about any page.

About the "copy editing". I am from the UK and have made my notes and edited the way I would in a British style. There have been some spelling mistakes, which I've noticed editors have kindly fixed. I am more than happy for whoever to edit the page into whatever is the appropriate 'language' etc for this Wikipedia. It is a German movie and I edited using British English, it is a kind of grey area, but understandable.

As I also pointed out on the "episode" page, if you check the edit history of "Heimat", you will have seen I have contributed more edits by single editor, in the last decade. I am working hard by myself to improve this page into something that before was very basic and unfinished. If there are any editors who have also watched the films and know information, I'll gladly work with them to improve the article. But it is not a big film, and I know about the "OWN" policy which states no editor can 'own' an article, but frankly, I do feel mildly insulted by some of these vague 'issues' stated, as I am the only one at the moment to be working on the entire article, not including mild edits to improve any spelling or referencing etc.

Please take what I have said, as well as on the "episodes" talk page into consideration regarding these 'issues'. Heimatchen (talk) 09:27, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

@Heimatchen: Hi! I've come by in response to the copy edit tag on the article, and for what it's worth will offer my thoughts on the other maintenance tags.

• I'm not great at finding sources either, and appreciate the difficulties you're facing. I think that generally reviewers like to see one citation per paragraph, plus an additional citation on anything which expresses an opinion or statistic, is controversial, or is likely to be challenged. There's nothing wrong with using the same source multiple times, if it supports multiple sections or paragraphs.
• It's fine to use the DVD liner notes as a source. There's even a citation template for that {{cite AV media notes}}. Try to fill in as many parameters as you can. Although the liner notes are a primary source, it's fine for non-controversial things like the cast and production team credits, running length, and any production details not likely to be challenged. However, for a statement like The film's soundtrack also became the longest soundtrack ever produced it would be good to get a secondary source to support that, or at least note the length of the soundtrack. Similarly for ratings and awards won, things which might be promotional if coming from a primary source. I put a few {{citation needed}} templates in to point out some of these areas.
• I did not find it to be overly detailed and removed that tag. (However, it may cut down some redundancy to integrate the separate cast and characters sections into a single section.)
• I briefly looked at List of Heimat episodes. Generally on a "list of episodes" article, which tend to be in table format, they want under 200 words of plot summary per episode, regardless of whether they are 22 minute episodes or 60 minute episodes. Here the "episodes" are more like full TV movies, 90 minutes. I think you make a strong argument with the Star Wars "episodes", and the first few plot summaries look okay at about 300–500 words. However, as is often the pattern with writing these, they become increasingly longer as you go down the list and should probably be trimmed to a consistent size. This is not a big deal and is really the normal way of doing things: first list everything, then determine what's most important and trim the rest, applying more concise language while summarizing.
• Not much to report for my copy edit: a lot of little MOS fixes, punctuation and grammar, and trimmed a little here and there for conciseness or tone.
• The text doesn't connect "Die zweite Heimat" and "Leaving Home" which the seventh section header notes in parenthesis, making it look like a translation (it is not). I'm curious how that got there and what the connection is.

I appreciate your work on this article and hope you come back to it. – Reidgreg (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Reidgreg:, it is nice to be noticed on here. I know I haven't edited a lot past year but it is still on my mind and unfortunatly due to how big these films are it is about taking time. I have almost finished Heimat 2 and made notes but just need to write on the plots. I also need to analyis and note down the new special features created for the amazing Blu-Ray release which will easily give new citations and info to the use. The booklet from the DVDs does contain loads of really good info, but I am worried at my usage of it as it might appear to other editors I am not venturing out to find other sources, but the fact is, the booklets are really good. If I can for larger sources I will do some secondary research as well.

About the episode plots, Heimat 1 is about 90 minutes on average per episode, while Heimat 2 episodes are all around the 120 minute mark. It does become difficult to write the plots and trim down any fat. I have been meaning to look over the Heimat 2 plots again. But I wrote down what I would hope to see as a casual person wanting some more insight or refresher or help understanding the "films" and visiting wiki.

I will at some point try to look at these, but with the vastly diverse set of characters and subplots in Heimat 2 it is difficult and I do feel they should be viewed more as a film plot than TV. But I will try and condense them more. :)

Regarding the "Die zweite Heimat" and "Leaving Home", that was part of the original wikipedia entry for the page when these were nothing more than what looked like a quick cheap creation with no effort put in, almost a decade ago. It is just The Second Heimat. I (or someone) should/will look up an exact translation with perhaps a source for that one.

I hope we can work together on this. Heimatchen (talk) 18:38, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

No worries. We're all volunteers and there's WP:NODEADLINE. When you have the rest of the Heimat plots added to the list, feel free to put it on the GOCE Requests page and maybe ping me for attention. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:03, 15 September 2018 (UTC)