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Talk:Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg

Latest comment: 11 months ago by Vif12vf in topic Name
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House

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Latest comment: 10 years ago12 comments9 people in discussion

Why house of Bourbon-Parma, the official name of his house is Nassau-Weilburg although he is agnatically a Bourbon. The Queen of the Netherlands is also an Orange-Nassau and not a Lippe-Biesterfeld. Xerxes 1.6.2006

Hi Xerxes, please sign your posts with ~~~~. The Grand Duke is correctly categorized because he is a member of the House of Bourbon-Parma (whether he likes it or not, actually, according to the rules of royalty). Of course, one can be the member of additional houses. At this time, however, a Nassau category has not been created. If there were enough articles to warrant a Lippe category than the Queen of the Netherlands would most certainly be in it as well. Charles 16:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Should we mention that Henri is a direct descendant of Hugh Capet in the male line? The Bourbons are a junior line of the Capetians, and he's the great-great-great-great-great grandson of Louis XIV. Assuming all those sons are the children of who they are supposed to be.--Syd Henderson 23:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

It is already implied by mention of his membership in the House of Bourbon. I don't think it really needs to be mentioned as it is more of a trivia thing. Charles 00:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
Actually he was a member of the House of Bourbon-Parma. Grand Duke Henri wanted to marry Maria-Theresa Mestre, but the head of the House of Bourbon-Parma, the Duke of Parma, disapproved that. On the site of Grand Duke Jean:
Jean renounced the titles of the House of Bourbon-Parma for himself and his family in 1986[1] when his eldest son, then-Hereditary Grand Duke Henri married Maria-Theresa Mestre. The reason for this being that the Duke of Parma, Carlos Hugo, ruled the marriage unequal in 1981.
If there was no House of Bourbon-Parma, and there was no head of this house, there wouldn't be all those troubles. Demophon 17:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
He still is a member of the House of Bourbon through the Parma line. The construction "Bourbon-Parma" is a genealogical one and the Duke of Parma is only the head of a ducal family, but not of the House of Bourbon. There is a head of the House of Bourbon, that is the whole house, and there are sub-branches composed of formerly reigning families over which the would-be sovereigns yield jurisdiction only in matters as far as their individual dynastic practises allow. The Duke of Parma, however, cannot kick anyone out of the House of Bourbon of any line because these sub-lines are genealogical constructions which are really only named for, but independent of, the titles that line bore or bears. Charles 22:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

The line under 'Patrilineal descent' is not only fabricated but absurd. The given source is completely a fabrication and should not be used for any genealogical purpose. By the way, if Henry IV of France was a descendant in male line from Merovech, then all Bourbon and Orleans are too. That includes the king of Spain; therefor Luxembourg's patriline would not be the longest of any currently ruling European ruler, as said. I think the whole ancestors line should be erased. Nachoseli (talk) 07:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

How can his patriline be any longer than anyone else's? The article defines the patriline thus: patriline is the line from which he is descended father to son. Everyone has a father, who had a father and so forth, back millions of years before humans became human. We are all alike in that respect. Qemist (talk) 13:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
By "patriline" in dynastic contexts is normally meant "traceable" descent, father to son. The source cited here was wrong (and false) in trying to make the Bourbons Merovingians in patriline (or matriline; no such descent is considered established by reputable genealogists), but the male-line legitimate descent of the Bourbons and Orleans from Hugh Capet is undisputed (as is the illegitimate descent of the House of Braganza). Since the patrilineal descent from antiquity of the current Bagration pretenders, both Gruzinsky and Mukhrani has been debunked (because the patriline of Queen Tamar of Georgia's consort, David Soslan, is no longer considered proven Bagrationi) and the last Irish and Rurikid patrilines were deposed in the 1500s, the Bourbons are widely believed to be the oldest reigning dynasty in Europe. That said, Surtcicna's edit of the article is correct: the Luxembourg Bourbons are legally junior to the Spanish Bourbons. Perhaps a footnote to that effect in the articles on those dynasties might be worthwhile? FactStraight (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
So this patriline has to be documented and and the person has to be a reigning European monarch? I have doubts about the noteworthyness of claiming to have the longest one of these, and the concept seems laden with sexism, eurocentrism and hereditary privilege. Without DNA tests I would think it more likely than not that a 42 step patriline was interrupted by paternity fraud. Estimates of the rate of paternity fraud vary, but taking the median 3.7% from that article, the probability that a 42 step patriline would not contain at least on incident of paternity fraud is only about 20.5%. Doesn't the Emperor of Japan have a patriline that goes back to the sun goddess Amaterasu in about the year 1000BC? Qemist (talk) 23:06, 17 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yes, the patriline has to be documented and the person has to be a reigning European monarch because the article claimed that Henri was the reigning European monarch with the longest patriline. The fact that he is an agnatic descendant of Hugh Capet is certainly noteworthy. You may consider it sexism, but that's how it is - a patriline was always considered more important than matriline (especially regarding monarchies). I do not understand why you mention eurocentrism; would you consider it americocentrism if an article claimed that John Smith is the most rewarded American actor? Regarding hereditary privilege, well, we are discussing a monarch, aren't we? Now, the article has never claimed that he was superior to any other person and there are no traces of eurocentrism or sexism or whatever. Regarding paternity fraud, it is very possible that there was one or two or more. It is also possible that Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, is not his biological father. But we still mention him because he is certainly his legal father. Thus, all the men in the line are legal fathers of the man who follows them in the line and (as far as I know) no historian or geneaologist has questioned their blood relation. If you have a source, please cite it here. Mentioning the Emperor of Japan is unnecessary because the disputable (and removed) sentence specifically referred to European monarchs. Surtsicna (talk) 23:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
Well said, Surtsicna. I noted that the current Bourbon monarchs represent the oldest, legitmate dynastic descent reigning in Europe, and very deliberately did not say "oldest genetic patriline" for the precise reasons Qemist noted. Juan Carlos I of Spain (rather than the Luxembourg grand duke) officially holds the claim for monarch of greatest legitimate dynastic longevity, an historically noteworthy fact, but his male-line descent from Hugh Capet has been frequently doubted since the mid-19th century (The article on Spain in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, published only 7 years after Isabella II's death, notes, "Palmerston, on behalf of Great Britain, had agreed to the principle that the queen should be married to one of her Bourbon cousins of the Spanish line, and that the younger sister should marry the duke of Montpensier, son of Louis Philippe, but not till the birth of an heir to the throne should have obviated the danger of a French prince wearing the crown of Spain. Louis Philippe, with the aid of the queen-mother, succeeded in forcing Isabella to accept the hand of Don Francisco d'Asisi, her cousin, who was notoriously incapable of having heirs; and on the same day the younger sister was married to the duke of Montpensier. The queen's marriage was miserable; and she consoled herself in a way which at once made her court the scandal of Europe, and upset the French king's plans by providing the throne of Spain with healthy heirs of genuine Spanish blood"). Nonetheless, "legitimacy" is a matter of genealogical law, not DNA. BTW, historical sexism is rapidly being corrected since there is now a great deal of research on tracing matrilineage now via Mitochondrial DNA back to Mitochondrial Eve, still Surtsicna is right that it isn't Wikipedia's role to retro-actively "correct" sexism, classism or other inequities, but to document history accurately so that we are knowledgeable enough to avoid the doom of repetition. FactStraight (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

House of Nassau-Weilburg

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Shouldn't this article say the Luxembourg grand ducal family consider themselves to be the House of Nassau-Weilburg not Bourbon-Parma. Forget what "rules of royalty" says. We need to reflect sources actually say and the official postition of the family. We have an interesting contradiction here now where the infobox says Bourbon-Parma while the succession box says House of Nassau-Weilburg as cadet branch of the House of Bourbon-Parma.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 11:27, 18 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ Grand Ducal Decree, 28 July 1986

File:Henri of Luxembourg (2009).jpg to appear as POTD

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Henri of Luxembourg (2009).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on April 16, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-04-16. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, in 2009. Born in 1955, Henri is the eldest son of Grand Duke Jean and Princess Joséphine-Charlotte of Belgium. He took the throne after his father's abdication in 2000.Photograph: א (Aleph)
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Name

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Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Shouldn't the name be changed to Henry? Nick.968 (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Personal names should generally not be translated, unless the person in question already accepts the translation in question. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 03:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
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