Talk:Hermann Göring

Role in the Reichstag

This article contains nothing about Goering's position as Speaker of the Reichstag -- and HHitler's apparent fear of his control of the Party.

Nor is there anything about his personal cruelty to the left members of the Reichstag after they had been thrown into the camps.

-dlj. User talk:DavidLJ [1]

Main Photo

War criminals should not have glorified military photos as main photo. A picture of Goring on trial is more fitting for his crimes against humanity which he was found guilty of at Nuremberg trials. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamthehistory (talk • contribs) 21:13, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

According to WP:IMAGE, "Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in, properly referenced, and large enough to reveal relevant details without overwhelming the text." The picture of Göring is all of those. It isn't glorifying him or any other Nazi; it is simply a picture used in the Infobox. There's no reason to replace it. Whilst his actions were indeed abhorrent, Wikipedia isn't a place for moral grandstanding.ExcellentWheatFarmer (talk) 21:05, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

By your logic, why is the military photo the standard bearer for him? I would argue you are showing the Nazi viewpoint of how great he looks in a military uniform representing the Nazis? Why not look at the potential victim viewpoint that he is man that committed terrible crimes and was put on trial for this - albeit not enough justice that came too late. Iamthehistory (talk) 00:50, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

The purpose of the photo in the infobox is to identify the subject of the article, not to right great wrongs or to present a particular point of view. Nazis, including the top brass as well as the rank and file and military, wore their uniforms virtually all the time. So photos of them in uniform are probably better for identification purposes than ones with civilian clothes.— Diannaa (talk) 12:24, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Diannaa as to her reasoning in relation to the main photo. And, he is not "let off the hook". The article makes clear his war crimes and the photo of his corpse, post suicide (to avoid his sentence to death by hanging) is shown in the last section of the article. Kierzek (talk) 16:27, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I noticed that the photo or more likely the negative was painted over. Take a close look at the ears and the hair quiff. --Zaunkoeniglich (talk) 20:13, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

He didn't look much like that in 1945, the purported date of the photo. Time to swap it out? I suggest the trial photo File:Hermann Goering - Nuremberg2.jpg. Comments? Other suggestions?— Diannaa (talk) 21:37, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

He looked more like this in 1945.

• Agree w/ the trial photo; Göring looks more like a real person, vs a propaganda icon. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:05, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Ideally, infobox / recognition images shouldn't have an obscured face. There is no specific requirement for it to look like he did in 1945, just that it's a good rendition that people will recognise. (Hohum ^@) 22:54, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I've just flicked through his commons images. The current picture is the only one I see of high quality, where his face isn't at least partially obscured, where on looking at it, he's instantly recognisable. The retouching isn't ideal, although it seems relatively minor. (Hohum ^@) 23:04, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

My comment was more intended to acknowledge that the current photo is indeed heavily retouched and therefore might not be the best option for the infobox. And I'm not entirely sure it was taken in 1945.— Diannaa (talk) 01:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I found a version without overpainting, on which however the Pour le Mérite is only half visible. Is this version also in the public domain? I do not know the death year of Robert Röhr. --Zaunkoeniglich (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Actuially I am not particularly satisfied regarding the sourcing on the copy of the image we already have, as the source url does not mention Goering or the purported photographer, Robert Röhr. So I don't think your version is a good choice as we can't prove its copyright status.— Diannaa (talk) 01:50, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

You can access the precise source URL by clicking on the link next to "Signature". The photographer is misspelled as "Rohr". Göring is likewise misspelled as "Goring". --Zaunkoeniglich (talk) 13:35, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, I see it now. Regardless, I don't think we will be using that image, as the consensus so far is to use the trial photo.— Diannaa (talk) 13:49, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Should we then move the title image to an appropriate section in the article, perhaps to whichever part mentions his promotion to Reichsmarschall? SuperWIKI (talk) 14:15, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure we have space. There's already so many images in this article.— Diannaa (talk) 21:12, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I personally fail to see how any of this makes sense. The previous photo (the one at the time of this discussion) was perfectly fine and as mentioned clearly met the criteria for an infobox image. The current image as was proposed here is both poor quality with its blurriness and with Goering's face obscured. This seems very inconsistent with the other articles of prominent Nazi war criminals. What about Eichmann's infobox image? Applying this logic, Eichmann's infobox image also glorifies the man and should be replaced with an image of him during his 1961 trial in Israel. It was an image that clearly showed Goering, regardless of whether it was a propaganda photo as again that could also be applied to most prominent Nazis on Wikipedia including Hitler's infobox photo. 85.255.234.80 (talk) 05:13, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

The consensus of the September 2021 discussion about the Eichmann infobox was to use the military photo. There's no reason to make all the articles the same - different consensus can exist on articles in this group, and that's okay. You can view previous image discussions about this article in Talk:Hermann Göring/Archive 1. We are limited to freely licensed public domain images only, and there's not a lot of choices. The problem is with Göring's images that many are too blurry, too hagiographic, been altered by adding thicker hair, too young, etc.— Diannaa (talk) 14:35, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I honestly do not understand how one would rather have the current image replace the previous. The new one is horrendous, with half his face covered and is from an angle among other things. It seems that you are being biased with the argument that because he was a war criminal that he should not have his portrait be shown even though that image is of higher quality in ever respect. May as well remove Hitler’s portrait from the main page and replace it with some garbage image taken from an odd angle w/ half his face covered with that irrational logic. Just because someone is a war criminal doesn’t mean they should have a shittier portrait be displayed, at that point you’re removing the neutrality of this article and using your own bias to judge what should be displayed. It’s irrelevant what someone did in the past when the main objective of the infobox image is to display the clearest possible image of one so that they can be more easily identifiable, not that it display some image based on their actions and reputation. You’re argument is horrendous and contains the fatal flaw of it being biased. This idea to change the image due to your personal beliefs and emotions of his actions highlights your incompetency at its worst. Sorry, but it had to be said. Fluffy89502 (talk) 10:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

You may as well replace Trump’s image with some shittier image if you believe that he was a horrible person with your logic. See the problem? Where do you set the boundary of who deserves a better image than someone else, and it seems that most people in this discussion seem to agree that the reasoning to replace his photo w/ the Nuremberg photo was an idiotic move. Fluffy89502 (talk) 10:16, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, unbiased presentation has never been Wikipedia speciality. 77.130.108.223 (talk) 20:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I think the original photo provided a much better quality image of the subject.Emiya1980 (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

What's the "original" photo? The trial photo is the one that was in the infobox when the article passed WP:GA :) — Diannaa (talk) 18:38, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The trial photo should be restored; it was picked by consensus. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:58, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I have restored it.— Diannaa (talk) 17:00, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Diannaa: @K.e.coffman: What consensus? Based on the above thread, only two users have come out firmly in favor of the current image. In order to reach a true consensus on the subject, I think an Rfc is in order.Emiya1980 (talk) 18:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Please consider reviewing the previous discussions and suggestions from the archives:Talk:Hermann Göring/Archive 1#Image change; Talk:Hermann Göring/Archive 1#Image option; Talk:Hermann Göring/Archive 1#Yet another image proposal. You did participate in those discussions. Consensus at that time was to use the trial photo. You are welcome to open an RFC obviously, if you think consensus has changed. There's detailed instructions at Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Creating an RfC— Diannaa (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Diannaa: I'm not sure there is a clear consensus for the image change, as you're referring to multiple discussions, going back almost five years and almost all archived. There are different people commenting at different times, and there are different images suggested in different discussions. It's good that you have suggested an RfC on the issue, but it would've been better to actually have an RfC before any change was made. (jmho) - wolf 01:59, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

You are welcome to open an RFC if you think consensus has changed. There's detailed instructions at Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Creating an RfC. — Diannaa (talk) 14:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think the trial photo is an excellent portrait. I think the hand-wringing over his pose and our inability to see part of his chin is a little tendentious. I acknowledge that the sensitivity of the subject foregrounds pov issues, but I think the trial photo can be justified over the full dress photo simply on its merits as a photograph, without resorting to moral claims about our duty to frame Göring as a criminal rather than a hero. Regulov (talk) 09:11, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Interesting image

[2] could be uploaded and used in the article (t · c) buidhe 01:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's worthwhile - it tells us nothing— Diannaa (talk) 15:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Diannaa, trivial. Kierzek (talk) 18:52, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

date of marriage

Hello,

According to the Carin Göring page: "She was divorced from von Kantzow in December 1922 and married Göring on 3 January 1923." According to the Hermann Göring page: "Carin obtained a divorce, followed Göring to Munich, and married him on 3 February 1922."

Which date is correct? Thanks

Stijn — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stijn74 (talk • contribs) 18:41, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

3 February 1922. The source cited in Carin's article does not actually give a date for the wedding.— Diannaa (talk) 20:36, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Voice file?

Would it be appropriate to include a voice file for Göring? If so could someone of whom is smarter at wikipedia put a voice file on this page? 166.181.249.17 (talk) 22:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

When I saw mustangs over Berlin, I knew the jig was up”

did this happen ? 3MRB1 (talk) 02:27, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Radio broadcast - Keep or remove?

I have removed content about a broadcast by Göring that was interrupted by noise from the RAF. I don't think this incident is important enough to include here, and tells us nothing about Göring. If it had been present when we applied for Good Article status, the reviewer likely would have asked for its removal. Discussion welcome. — Diannaa (talk) 02:32, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

• I agree with Diannaa. The incident is, in and of itself, amusing, and would certainly spice up a TV documentary on Goring, but it really doesn't have anything to say about the man, and could have happened to any of the Nazi's top leaders, if they were scheduled to speak at that moment. It might be acceptable as a footnote, but not in the body of the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:13, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
• I agree with the removal, per above. Kierzek (talk) 03:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Kierzek This is the first allied attack on berlin...3MRB1 (talk) 14:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• 3MRB1, that does not make the broadcast interruption in itself noteworthy. Kierzek (talk) 16:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Kierzek it was an attack on the broadcast itself 3MRB1 (talk) 00:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

RfC regarding the main infobox picture

Hi, everyone. There was recently some discussion regarding the article's infobox pic. Do you think the main infobox picture should be changed? Here is an example:

Thank you all! Gamle Kvitrafn (talk) 20:10, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Your RFC is malformed in a couple of ways. Your RFC should be in the form of a question, and should be neutrally worded. That's not the case here, since you've specified your preference for a military photo instead of posing a neutrally worded question. And you haven't specified a specific photo you think should be in the infobox.— Diannaa (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

What Diannaa said. This si not a proper WP:RFC, so I've commented out the RfC tag.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:43, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I've fixed it. Thanks for the guidance. Gamle Kvitrafn (talk) 00:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Your RFC is still flawed, because your question is not neutrally worded, and is designed to sway the user in favor of the new image. I have commented out the RFC template. — Diannaa (talk) 01:21, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Let's try this again...Gamle Kvitrafn (talk) 17:51, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

• No - (Summoned by bot) Keep as is. I see no reason to replace the infobox's current image. Meatsgains^(talk) 18:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes - In nearly every other article on senior Nazi members, they are shown in their respective uniforms. Göring with a sour face in a suit is the odd man out. Gamle Kvitrafn (talk) 19:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes. The photo suggested here shows his face more visibly without his hand obscuring part of it, and is overall of higher quality. If there were a photo of this quality from his time during the trial, that should be considered too, but absent that the better and clearer photo should be used. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes It shows his full face and shows him "on the job." (Summoned by bot) I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 19:33, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• No (Summoned by bot) The current photo is fine. It shows him on trial for his crimes, not resplendent in the uniform he wore while he committed the crimes for which he was executed. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:46, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• No Keep as is; the suggested photo is from 1934, before the majority of events in the article took place, and thus does not strike me as being very representative of Göring's historical impact.— Diannaa (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: I have posted a notification at WT:WikiProject Military history.— Diannaa (talk) 20:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes but not the suggested one. If showing any role, should one that he is most noted for, North8000 (talk) 20:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• Abstain(Summoned by bot). Goering´s life has many facets, which no single photo can capture. What photo could possibly be "representative of Göring's historical impact"? Göring as the founder of the huge Reichswerke Hermann Göring, the man behind the Reichstagsbrand , or rather him ordering Heydrich to prepare the Final Solution, the Holocaust, ....? I think that there are so many photos of him on the page that it doesnt matter what particular photo is in the infobox. The current one is fine, the suggested one is fine. --Wuerzele (talk) 21:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes / Support change - more than anything else, Göring is known as a top Nazi officer and the infobox photo should align with that. (I have more reasons, but you'd have to have seen Inglourious Basterds to understand them.) - wolf 22:34, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I was asked to clarify this. Basically, the courtroom image tells us nothing. Can't even tell this in a court. And placing that image in the infobox places importance on the fact that he was in court, facing... some sort of justice(?) And no longer in uniform could be seen as being no longer a Nazi, and everything evil that being a Nazi represented. Since there's no images with a Swastika carved in his forehead, I believe that an image of him in uniform, in the infobox, helps to clearly summarize the most important aspect of who, and what, he was, in the most appropriate place in the article to so. (That's the gist of it.) - wolf 01:05, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

• No - Should be left as is. We have been through all this, as recent as the end of 2021. The current photo in the infobox does its job; it identifies the subject of the article. No reason to change it. Kierzek (talk) 01:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
• No: (Summoned by bot) The suggested image is far lower resolution than the trial photo and the trial photo adequately identifies the subject (his hand being placed over his chin definitely doesn't outweigh the bad quality of this replacement image). Alduin2000 (talk) 16:00, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
• No. I am baffled that some editors think the trial photograph is "low quality", apparently because we are unable to make out at a glance whether or not he had a cleft chin. It is a better portrait than the uniform picture, a better photo, and a higher-resolution file. It's one thing to insist on the regalia; it is true that most of our Nazi biographies have brass-and-ribbon photos in the infobox. But the proposed shot of Göring is crummy. It's a low-resolution crop. Anyway, I'm not convinced we need the uniform. Nazis also looked like this; in fact, isn't this perhaps the apotheosis of the Nazi? A war criminal in defeat, soon to commit ignominious suicide. Regulov (talk) 18:01, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
• No I really like the current photo: it's visually arresting, shows what he looked like and doesn't glamorise him. Nick-D (talk) 11:30, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
• No Essentially per Alduin2000...and as this has been brought up: he isn't "more than anything else known as a top-Nazi officer". All these photos of other Nazi Grandes in uniforms...well, there is a reason they wanted to be shown in uniform, even at the times. Lectonar (talk) 12:20, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
• Comment I LOVE the current picture, but I think that someone who has no idea or a very small idea of who Göring is (or was, rather) would get a better idea of the man from a uniformed picture than from a frumpy courtroom picture. I'm just thinking of being as general as possible, i.e. high ranking Nazi, at the beginning of the article and then getting more specific, i.e. explanations as to why he might be sitting in a courtroom looking so dour. Gamle Kvitrafn (talk) 00:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
• No Keep trial photograph if it is a choice between that and the proposed one, which just shows a man in a unuform. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 07:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
• No per Alduin2000 mostly. The uniform pic (and others I've seen) are lower quality than the trial photo.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:24, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
• No Changing it to the new picture will not enhance or improve the biography page. Therefore, abstain from the edit.Writethisway (talk) 22:21, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
• YesPerfectly suitable pic, German WW2 officers need to be shown in uniform to link them to what they were most known for, their dubious role in WW2. Also, as others have noted, this shows his face clearly, in the other one his face is obscured. Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
• No (Summoned by bot) current photograph is perfectly fine. This is an encyclopedia article about a convicted war criminal who was sentenced to death for his crimes, not a Luftwaffe fan page. Coretheapple (talk) 13:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
• No No, because as stated above showing him in the courtroom is suitable. We do not need to glorify Göring. Existing photo is ok as it is.MraClean (talk) 14:18, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
• No The current photo appears to be higher quality to me. Furthermore, I do think that we should pay a little more attention to the POV of photos, and the suggested alternative photo seems pretty clearly to be taken from a Nazi POV, which we should definitely not be elevating. Loki (talk) 16:58, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
• No -- keep as is; better reflects the subject's entire career. Besides, Göring looks more like a real person, vs a propaganda icon. --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:01, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Yes Current photo is shit. Either use the above photograph or File:Hermann Göring - Röhr.jpg because they do a good job at conveying what he looked like. Current photo has him covering his face from an awkward angle. The point of the photograph is to easily display to others what such person looked like. So what if it was used in propaganda. Also, you may as well argue that the portrait of FDR is "glorifying him;" the problem is that its all subjective. The infobox photograph is not there for people to say "oh, he did something horrible in the past, so he deserves a shit photograph." That's what the rest of the article is for. What about Hitler's or Stalin's infobox photographs? Fluffy89502 (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
• Yes — The recent Talk:Adolf_Eichmann#RFC: Lead image concluded with "Those in favor of the older photo say he should be represented by a picture wearing his uniform of the Nazi regime, not only because they believe he is most well known for the part he played in the holocaust (the reason he ended up in trial), but also because it helps the reader quickly identify the subject's place in history." I think the same can be said of Göring MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
• Yes Although I can think of better replacement photos. The problem with the current photo is (among several things): not showing him in uniform and he is too lean in this photo. Goring spent most of his adult life as quite heavy.Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
• What about this image as an alternative for the infobox? Unlike the one currently being used on the article, it provides a clear view of Hermann Göring face. It is also much less blurry and out of focus than the current alternative under discussion (i.e. the photo showing Göring in uniform). Furthermore, unlike previous infobox pictures that have since been rejected, it is a photo of the man as he appeared in real-life with no signs of being airbrushed for propaganda purposes. Thoughts? Emiya1980 (talk) 01:31, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

  The image might not be in the public domain. So no, we should not use that one. — Diannaa (talk) 02:36, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Alternative Image Proposal

How about this one? A version of this image is already in use on the German wikipedia. Emiya1980 (talk) 18:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Alternative Image Proposal #2(suggested by Emiya1980, 4 June 2024

@Diannaa, Obenritter, Kierzek, Nick-D, Favonian, Beyond My Ken, Tuckerresearch, HangingCurve, A.S. Brown, Skjoldbro, Troy von Tempest, Dapi89, Antique Rose, and Attilios:Emiya1980 (talk) 18:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Antique Rose:Emiya1980 (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I am not in favor of using that, as it says "unknown author" yet claims it was taken by armed forces personnel. Both can't be true. It's just as likely that the photo was taken by a member of the press. The source magazine is not a government publication; it's a copyright magazine published by in indelendent organization. — Diannaa (talk) 01:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

There is an issue of the status of the one photo offered, as Diannaa mentions. Agree, not in favor of using it. Kierzek (talk) 02:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Kierzek and Diannaa about not using this photo, as there are potential copyright issues to reconcile. --Obenritter (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

First image size

I tried to shrink the first pic, but I got reverted. Honestly, I'd argue it should be deleted altogether; it's clearly going against MOS:SANDWICH and the text is hard to read this way. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 16:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It looks fine on my Acer Chromebook. SWhat areyou viewing it on? — Diannaa (talk) 23:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I have both a vertical and horizontal monitor, but even on my horizontal monitor it's still sandwiched to the point of slight inconvenience. There will be devices and font sizes for which the sandwiching will be worse. To be clear, this is an unambiguous case of MOS:SANDWICH; the policy is designed to account for these variations. You can disagree with the policy, but it's policy.

I like the picture, I think it's informative. Shrinking it was my attempt at a compromise. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 23:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not a policy, it's part of the manual of style, which is a content guideline.

I assume you are using a desktop computer running Windows? — Diannaa (talk) 04:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I have both windows and mac, but I'm not sure why you're pursuing this line of reasoning as I've already addressed it before. Devices will differ, fonts will differ, we design for general audiences. The guideline (my mistake on wordchoice earlier) is meant to account for that. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 05:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Because my screen is 10 inches wide and the space between the image and the infobox is 4 inches, which seems quite adequate. I assume that the available space would be even wider on a larger screen? I will look at it when I get to work and see how it displays on a bigger monitor. — Diannaa (talk) 14:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

We are not supposed to specify a size using number of pixels, but rather using the coding |thumb|upright=0.75 for example to reduce an image to 75%. I have reduced to 60% as an example of what we could do. — Diannaa (talk) 14:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I have a big monitor here at work. I've shrunk my window for viewing the Internet to about 15" for easier readability. Logged in using Vector Legacy skin, I get 7.5" of text width between the image and the infobox using standard image setting and 8.5" when the image is shrunk to 60%. When not logged in, I get 3.5" of space for text between the image and the infobox using the default size and 4.5" when the image is shrunk to 60%. People who are not logged in are served the Vector 2022 skin, which has an automatic restriction on page width no matter how big the monitor. This is because tests have found that trying to read text on an ultra-wide monitor is difficult for most people. — Ninja Diannaa (Talk) 15:50, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Rfc for Herman Göring's Lede Image (2024)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Which of the following images should serve as the infobox picture for Hermann Göring? Emiya1980 (talk) 00:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• 
  A (Current Image)
• 
  B
• 
  C
• 
  D
• 
  E

Emiya1980 (talk) 00:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think we should use image D, because we don't know for sure that the copyright tag is correct. In other words, we don't actually know for sure that the photo was taken by someone in the Air Force. Looking at the source I see the notation that the photo is marked as "Photo via Stan Piet", who could have been a jouranlist or other civilian. We really don't know. So of the three remaining alternatives, I like Photo A, the current image. It's a clear crisp image. B is a little blurry, with weird shadows in the background, and C is a Nazi image issued as a souvenir postcard, too promotional for my taste. — Diannaa (talk) 03:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• I also prefer the status quo, Image A, for the reasons just stated by Dianaa. By our normal standards, it's not an ideal image but better than the alternatives. And I will add: as a portrait in the more profound sense, i.e. a picture that gives you some insight into a person's character, I think the candid and unposed nature of Image A actually adds to its strength. It's a haunting picture of a haunted man, and for that reason I think it serves to elevate the encyclopedic value of the article. But yeah, if you think my musings are a load of cruft, then just consider this an endorsement of the perfectly rational reasons given by Dianaa. Generalrelative (talk) 03:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Emiya1980 C, it's the best image of Göring. It in no way glorifies him or the NSDAP. He was a military man and the chief of the Luftwaffe, they are facts whether we like it or not. C best represents him and is also the best quality image Troy von Tempest (talk) 02:05, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Just need to say that after two people had already commented on the RFC, Emiya1980 added a fifth image, "E". I am pretty sure the terms of an RFC should not be altered once people have started to respond, but I'm not going to edit war over it. — Diannaa (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• I still believe that photo A is fine and there is no good reason to change it; the others, except for D, which has a shadow and the copyright is clearly in question, are all just standard “strong man” images or official poses, which don’t relay the stripped away nature of “a haunted man”, as Generalrelative so aptly put it. Further, I also endorse the reasoning as stated by Diannaa. Kierzek (talk) 23:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• I would prefer the image from the Nuremberg trial but his face is obstructed. Thus maybe some other option would be better. Trimpops2 (talk) 12:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Trimpops2 Seeing as how you have expressed reservations regarding the current image because of the obstruction to Goering's face, is there another choice that you prefer? Emiya1980 (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Emiya1980, Is there any other image from the trial with the face non obstructed? Trimpops2 (talk) 20:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Trimpops2 Here are links to some other good-quality images from the trial. Emiya1980 (talk) 22:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:G%C3%B6ring_in_the_dock_at_the_Nuremberg_Trials_(cropped).jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hermann_G%C3%B6ring_in_1946#/media/File:Goering_on_trial_(color)_crop.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hermann_G%C3%B6ring_on_trial_at_Nuremberg_1946_(cropped)(2).jpeg

If you're interested, here also is a link to his mugshot after being arrested by Allied forces. Emiya1980 (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Emiya1980. I don't know how often mugshots are used. I din't notice much of them on Wikipedia. For other 3, maybe something from the front would be better. Options 2 and 3 seem good enough. Trimpops2 (talk) 22:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Trimpops2 Judging by the flow of the thread, it doesn't seem like the images you favor are likely to catch on. Do you have any preferences among the 5 images originally provided for selection in the Rfc? Emiya1980 (talk) 02:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Then I would opt for A. Thanks for consideration. Trimpops2 (talk) 12:24, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• C, then A My philosophy has always been that for historic figures we should use the best quality image that is most representative of the subject. I think the propaganda argument can certainly be applied to many images of Goering (something like c:File:General Goring (Mann Gerrf).png would be completely inappropriate), but I don't think it is particularly relevant for C; at its essence, this is a military portrait in a similar vein to those of Moltke the Elder and Wilhelm II; Nazi iconography is certainly present but is not really at the forefront (unlike say c:File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-L04232, Walter Koch.jpg). Status quo is also acceptable for reasons laid out above, but would be a definitive second choice for me. Curbon7 (talk) 19:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Striking due to the comment by Nick-D. I am clearly not read enough on Goering to make such a judgement. Curbon7 (talk) 02:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  I am leaning back towards C. It is a recognizable portrait of the subject which is both high quality and comparatively high resolution. It does not appear to have been digitally altered (at least not significantly). I don't think the medals are an issue; all (not counting the Nazi medallion as a medal) besides the Italian grand cross on his right chest seem to have been World War I service medals (such as the Pour le Mérite around his collar). The Swastika medallion is not overly large, and I think is quite important in the representation of the subject as a Nazi. Curbon7 (talk) 21:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Curbon7 I concur Troy von Tempest (talk) 01:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• To me, the fact that Göring was a convicted war criminal and many pass-by readers will only look at the article Summary, we should avoid any first-look image that glorifies him in Nazi regalia. There are plenty of other photos further into the article and the status quo does what it should already. Image A is the most appropriate here. --Obenritter (talk) 19:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
• A more familiar to the readers image D.S. Lioness (talk) 02:30, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
• A The alternatives are not a real improvement. This is basically the same discussion that was recently held at Mussolini and Frederick the Great. These aren't biographies of living people where there are new photos. These are stable, well written articles, and in this case this is a GA article. The status quo is fine and it's been previously discussed. This is a needless time sink and disrespectful to those who have spent time editing the article and those who volunteer time for RFCs. Nemov (talk) 13:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• E because he is best known as a military leader. His pose is casual. His gaze is not resolute. What I don't like about A are the little speckles (probably dust particles). At first, I thought that he had a cyst on his forehead. --Curiosity2023 (talk) 01:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  We could ask at the Graphics Lab and someone could remove the white dots. — Diannaa (talk) 12:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, that's a good idea. The dots should be removed, and the bottom edge should be cropped. --Curiosity2023 (talk) 12:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  I like the clenched fist though. It shows the tension he was experiencing. — Diannaa (talk) 13:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  A kind expert from the Graphics Lab has made the dots go away. — Diannaa (talk) 20:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Curiosity2023: So are you currently in favor of E or A? Emiya1980 (talk) 20:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• E or B I think the current one I don't very like because he is partially covering his face, and only half his face is illuminated. C I think is too promotional. D is kinda low quality and i dont like the lighting. — A Socialist Trans Girl (talk) 05:09, 11 July 2024‎ (UTC)

  @A Socialist Trans Girl When you say you're in favor of B or E, do you have any preferences between the two? Emiya1980 (talk) 01:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• A All the options but A and D are Nazi propaganda images - the Nazis made a lot of use of photography to portray an image of their regime, and these images depict Göring as a bit of a dashing type of character which he rather famously was not. A and D are post war so avoid these issues. D is very low quality, so A is the best option. The EV is strong as it depicts what he looks like during one of the better known periods of his life. Nick-D (talk) 00:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
• A, feels like “Groundhog Day”. My reasoning is stated in the RfC above, I’m not gonna repeat myself. Kierzek (talk) 00:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
• D if the copyright works out, otherwise C. I don't like A because between the sharp shadows and the hand on his chin, his face is obscured quite a bit. B and E are okay but subpar photos. D despite being similar to B and E I think is best because it's the only color photo here, and other than that C is the best view of his face. I'm not particularly convinced by the "Nazi propaganda images" argument: yes, obviously most good images of one of the lead Nazis are going to be images taken by the Nazi regime to promote itself. There's frankly no good way around this and I don't really think the promotional priorities of the Nazi regime nearly 100 years ago are relevant to Wikipedia in 2024. If anything, I feel that the rhetorical goals of the photos taken by Nazis are very counterproductive on Wikipedia in 2024, where portraying Göring as a strong stoic figure makes him look more like a stereotypical Nazi, while A makes him seem a little bit too personable to me. Loki (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  @LokiTheLiar agreed Troy von Tempest (talk) 02:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Gamle Kvitrafn, Meatsgains, Seraphimblade, I dream of horses, Figureofnine, North8000, Thewolfchild, Alduin2000, Regulov, Lectonar, Peter Southwood, Writethisway, SMcCandlish, K.e.coffman, Deathlibrarian, LokiTheLiar, Fluffy89502, MisterBee1966, Rja13ww33, MraClean, Coretheapple, and Wuerzele:In light of your participation in the prior discussion on the lede image for Hermann Göring, you are invited to participate in a new Rfc on the subject. Should you be inclined to do so, please share your thoughts on this thread. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

• C, E, B, or D (in that order) - more than anything else, Göring is mainly, almost exclusively, known as one of Hitler's inner circle, and a leader of the German military. An image in uniform certainly helps to convey that. That is likely why the infobox images of Joseph Stalin, Idi Amin, Augusto Pinochet, Francisco Franco, Hirohito and Napoleon are all in uniform. Even Hitler's infobox image is his offical 1938 portrait, with a Swastika armband and military healdry pinned to his chest. The image of Göring at trial should be in the trial section. Currently, this article has 11 images and one video of Göring in a Nazi uniform, so why is one in the infobox such an issue? We shouldn't be editing based on our personal feelings on the subject, but based on supported facts. (jmho) - wolf 21:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
• C. Agree with Thewolfchild. Doesn't make much sense to have him out of uniform....when that is what he was most noted for. Option C also captures his girth. (Something else he was noted for during most of his adult life.)Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• D, E, C, B, A, from best to worst. D because it's in color and in uniform. The rest but A because they are in uniform, and in E, C, B order for E having a clearer face view and C and B being equal in that regard but C not having a distracting white splash. A is the worst because it has a "throughtful" pose that implies intelligence, reasons, even wisdom (it's the famous hand-to-face gesture of Rodin's The Thinker), it's out-of-uniform, and it makes him look clever and even approachable. Has the feel of a portrait of a playwright. This is a Nazi war criminal, and the uniform is approprirate. A also partly occludes his face with his hand, so for encyclopedic purposes it's a crap portait even if all other considerations were ignored. The quality of D is not an issue, because it is perfectly adequate quality for inlining in the article. It only has quality issues when blown up, and even in that state it's not any worse than many other images we are using. I'm not even slightly swayed by "some of the others are Nazi propaganda images". Pretty much all Nazis-in-uniform are, by definition, yet we use them because they most accurately depict the subjects in the context for which they are [negatively] notable. None of them make him look "dashing" or otherwise glorified; they're very typical and pretty stuff military-officer portraits. The one that actually has a promotional effect is A. PS: Yes, I have changed my mind on this, from the previous round, where I supported using A (the trial photo). PPS: The black suit one from the previous discussion above would also be possible, as another alternative to A, and next-to-last choice after the uniform pics, but only if the hair or whatever it is is removed (the weird line running quasi-horizontally, and going across his forehead).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

  The difference to Rodin's whole sculpture being the balled fist, which takes away the fleeting impression of intelligence or wisdom which might have been intended. But as it is, the photos overall seem to leave different impressions on different people, viz this discussion here :).Lectonar (talk) 06:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I have nominated File:Göring Augsburg 1945.jpg and file:Göring Augsburg 1945-beschnitten.jpg (Image "D") for deletion at the Commons, as the license tag may be incorrect. Adding: I really don't think we should use it if the copyright status is in doubt, hence the deletion nomination. We gotta stay classy; we are the 7th most viewed website worldwide. — Diannaa (talk) 03:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• A. Responding to ping. Frankly I don't recall opining on this previously, but my view is that A should remain the photo. The others show him in Nazi regalia. This one shows him as a war criminal in the dock at Nuremburg, which is a more appropriate image for the article rather than him preening in full Nazi uniform. The other photos are official Nazi propaganda. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• A Responding to a ping; and it's for the same reason I gave in the last RfC in 2022. All pictures of him in uniform are essentially Nazi propaganda: we shouldn't cater to that, even after more than 75 years. And jsut as an addendum: I do not know where the idea that he is mainly known as military leader comes from: known essentially as a politician, war criminal, flyer in WWI...military leader, no. Lectonar (talk) 07:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

  Me personally, the first thing I think of with Goring is him being the commander of the Luftwaffe. (Before all that other stuff.) But I guess that's just me.Rja13ww33 (talk) 16:46, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• A Keep the status quo. The other images don't seem like much of an improvement. Or in other words, nothing is really gained from changing the current image, which in itself is perfectly appropriate. Writethisway (talk) 20:03, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
• I believe that image A is the best choice, as it is arguably the most iconic and recognizable image of him and the setting adds to its relevance. 1mikeymouse1 (talk) 02:31, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
• B or D. In light of the fact that C is clearly a glamorizing depiction of Göring designed to promote the Nazi regime, it probably should not be used unless a caption explicitly confirming its propagandistic nature is also provided. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• Seeing as how B doesn't seem to be gaining any traction, I change my vote to D.Emiya1980 (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning towards D, largely from the historic context of the image. It was taken after he was captured by US forces, already deprived of his medals but still wearing his fancy blue uniform. It depicts his transition from his Nazi past to the criminal on trial. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: it will be interesting to see the close on this. Many of the comments supporting 'A' all seem to be of the same attitude that "Nazis were awful and we shouldn't be showing Nazis because that would (somehow) be glamourizing them, and WP shouldn't be seen supporting the Nazis 'cuz the Nazis suck." While I agree on a personal level that the Nazis did indeed "suck", shouldn't we be approaching this from an encyclopaedic point of view? Arguments here should be based on what image represents the subject best, not showing what we feel the subject deserves. Changes to any content should be based on policy, not personal POV. (jmho) - wolf 13:42, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  The issue here is largely definitional. No one is arguing for A cuz Nazis suck, as you say. Rather, a good number of the A votes are predicated on the understanding that "encyclopedic" is in some sense antithetical to propaganda. This doesn't mean that we can never include propaganda when properly framed, but rather that a non-propagandistic image may well represent the subject best. Generalrelative (talk) 18:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@Generalrelative Interesting viewpoint in light of how you previously did not object on such grounds to the clearly propagandistic portrait for Benito Mussolini on the Rfc for his page's lede image. Emiya1980 (talk) 18:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@GR - You've somewhat made my point for me, in that using an image of Goring in uniform is not propaganda, but people here arguing against it seem to think it is. And Emiya makes a good point about Mussolini. who I also noted in my !vote above with a half dozen other dictators who are in uniform in their infoboxes, with no complaint. But looking past them, what about the US military? There is no shortage of critics here who believe that American officers and soldiers (and Marines, pilots, sailors, etc) have committed all kinds is war crimes, yet we have (hundreds? more?) of bio's with them in uniform in the infobox, yet I don't recall there ever being an RfC to change any of those images to remove the uniform. But that's what is happening here. People are making a distinction based on personal animus (even if well-founded), and that is antithetical to writing an encyclopaedia. - wolf 19:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't get a lot of the arguments made either. Someone even made the [incredible] statement that image "A" is the "most iconic and recognizable image". Seriously? I'm not sure I've even seen pic "A" before outside of wiki. That pic doesn't appear at all in the Encyclopedia Britannica's article on him. Here is PBS's 'American Experience' article on him. [3]. (Note the pic used.)Rja13ww33 (talk) 20:10, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah the whole reason this discussion is occurring is due to bias. His original picture (File:Hermann Göring - Röhr.jpg) was removed because "Nazi's are bad" and I argued that that picture should not have been changed because it was much more clear, but consensus decided that "war criminals don't need to be glorified." Like bruh, that pic was the most objectively clear one to see what he looked like. It was a very biased and non-neutral decision in that convo and this one seems to be infested with people who are deciding with biases formed from the subject matter of the individual, not from the photographic value of the infobox image, which should be a good image for the average reader to quickly glance and see what the subject looked like instead. It's very sad and unfortunate.

Also, the argument that focuses on having a pic of him from Nuremburg is flawed in other ways, It only focuses on a brief moment of his life and the term "propaganda" is extremely subjective and that using "propaganda images" is bad is essentially stating that Wikipedia should start censoring content that run contrary to subjective viewpoints even if those photos are objectively the most clear and useful images available. I didn't know that we have to protect Wikipedian's from being indoctrinated by censoring infobox images like WTF???? Its like the violent video games make school shooters argument. I also did not know that having an image in the infobox is "glorification." Bruh. I do not even know what to say anymore that is also a subjective term.

My first vote goes to that one (File:Hermann Göring - Röhr.jpg). Other than that, I say C, E, B in that order. Fluffy89502 (talk) 20:15, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you call File:Hermann Göring - Röhr.jpg the "original picture". I don't recall it ever having been the infobox image for this article, which I have been monitoring since 2012. The infobox image when I started WP:GA prep in February 2012 was the photo from the trial (image "A"). It was there when we passed GA, and has been in the infobox for the majority of the time ever since. I did some spot checks on diffs from early days and found that there have been other infobox images prior to 2012, but they were deleted for lack of copyright permission. — Diannaa (talk) 21:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Just randomly checking prior to 2020.....I am seeing that photo quite a bit. [4][5].

I am also seeing this photo a lot too: [6].Rja13ww33 (talk) 03:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Original in relation to the previous discussion in which I was tagged here for as the removal of that picture since it was "promoting propaganda" was at contention in there. Fluffy89502 (talk) 08:15, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Hermann Göring - Röhr.jpg (with C,D,E as less preferred alternatives) - not sure why it wasn't included in options as it is literally in the article main body at this moment, but seems like an obvious choice giving a good instantly recognizable view of the subject's face. It also depicts Göring in the role he is most notable for: second man of the Reich and commander of Luftwaffe. Current image is pretty poor as subject's face isn't even properly visible. "Propaganda" argument is quite nonsensical. It is pretty standard in wikipedia to use similar "propaganda" official photographs in all kinds of biographies from US presidents to Adolf Hitler, for a simple reason that these are commonly the best quality photos.--Staberinde (talk) 10:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
• It's starting to look like Photo D is okay from a copyright pont of view. However when I inspect it closely I noticed that it's quite pixellated, as is the image it was cropped from. So regardless of the copyright status, I don't think we should use it in the infobox. — Diannaa (talk) 14:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
• Image A looks simultaneously like a glamour shot, and like something AI-generated. He was a Nazi, we can depict him as such. Image D is my favorite because colorized, but short of that, Image B Snokalok (talk) 17:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, the glamorizing AI software of the 1945 Nuremburg trials. Curbon7 (talk) 21:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I am pretty sure image "D" is not colorized, but a color photo. Color film did exist at that time, but was not yet heavily used, as it was quite expensive, as was the processing. — Diannaa (talk) 00:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Abstain(summoned by Emiya1980). No particular point in the discussion above convinced me. Repeating what I stated in prior RfC: Goering´s life has many facets, which no single photo can capture. What photo could possibly be "representative of Göring's historical impact"? Göring as the founder of the huge Reichswerke Hermann Göring, the man behind the Reichstagsbrand or rather him ordering Heydrich to prepare the Final Solution, the Holocaust, ....? There are so many photos of him on this page that it doesnt matter what particular photo is in the lede or infobox. The current one is fine, the suggested ones are fine. Showing him in one of the pics in uniform (B-E) is no glorification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wuerzele (talk • contribs) 10:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• @Beyond My Ken, Antique Rose, Obenritter, Favonian, HangingCurve, Skjoldbro, Troy von Tempest, and Attilios: In light of the significant extent of your contributions to the Hermann Göring page (as well as the relatively recent evidence of your continued interest in said article), you are invited to participate in a discussion regarding which image is best for the lede. Should you feel so inclined, please share your thoughts below. Thank you.Emiya1980 (talk) 05:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Emiya1980 - my opinion is already made above. Thanks, nonetheless, for your considerate ping.--Obenritter (talk) 16:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

• A or E. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:14, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

• @Beyond My Ken Do you have a preference between A or E? Emiya1980 (talk) 03:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• A Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Anything but A-Image A offers a much poorer view of his face in comparison to the others. I'm fine with using any image other than that. Display name 99 (talk) 17:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Display name 99 If you had a preference for any of the other 4 images besides A, what would it be?Emiya1980 (talk) 02:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I probably like Image C the best, but there isn't really a particular reason other than personal preference. I could live with B, D, or E as well. Display name 99 (talk) 13:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• C or E - I have no preference for either, and they both have their problems, but I believe these two best depict him. First of all, both depict him in Nazi uniform. As he was one of the most powerful members of the Nazi Party, it only makes sense that the main image depicts him as such. I am also of the belief that the best infobox images do not need captions to give extra context. I'm not saying there should be no caption, but if we were to remove the caption and therefore the context from A, the reader would not immediately understand that he was a war criminal or even at least associated with war criminals. That means A is a definite "no" for me.

Aside from the questionable copyright status of D, the low resolution and general graininess of the image are the primary reasons for me rejecting it. It also doesn't help that his hat is casting a rather large shadow on his face.

My rejection of B is more of a personal preference. I'm not sure if such an unwritten rule exists for biography articles, but for aircraft articles we tend to prefer images with aircraft facing left toward the article text. B depicts Göring facing right, which does not sit well with me. There is also something off about his face that I can't quite explain.

C is obviously a propaganda photo, but that's not necessarily a bad thing here. It depicts him in all his "Naziness" (after all, he was one of the most powerful Nazis), which I imagine is something both a propagandist and an encyclopedia would want for different reasons. One minor problem I have with this one is that it is a scan of a postcard rather than a direct photo, giving it a more artificial look.

E is a direct photo of Göring facing slightly left, and depicts him in a more typical uniform. Unlike D, Göring's hat casts a minimal shadow on his face which does not detract from the photo's clarity. My only concern with this one is that it is the smallest of the five. - ZLEA _T\^C 08:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• @ZLEA: If you had to choose between C or E, which would you prefer? Emiya1980 (talk) 00:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm ever so slightly leaning toward E. I really have no significant preference between the two, though. - ZLEA _T\^C 00:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• A per Diannaa and Kierzek. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
• A per Generalrelative. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 16:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
• E, which hints at his notorious corpulence, love of bling, vanity, and military pretensions. Second choice B, for similar reasons. Not A, which shows him on trial; a minor part of his career. Not C, a rather ludicrous publicity photo designed to show off his firm chin and martial bearing, with a gaze directed nowhere in particular to emphasise his power of thought. Not D, for the reasons given by others. Narky Blert (talk) 07:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
• A per Diannaa. W9793 (talk) 00:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
• A per Diannaa. Second choice is E but I feel that showing him as a criminal on trial is the best lead image. It is a good clear image and I don't think the fact that he has his hand to his face is a problem as it is only covering a little of his chin. E could be used elsewhere in the article. --DanielRigal (talk) 03:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• A or C per MOS:PORTRAITMoxy🍁 13:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• @Moxy: Between A and C, which do you prefer? Emiya1980 (talk) 21:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  C as he's primarily famous for being a military figure. Moxy🍁 21:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• A, best picture, no odd shadows, as Dianaa and Generalrelative say it is the best among these for our purposes. As a side note, i truly don't understand the comment that implies A preferences are because Nazis suck; that seems a weird argument to use in an RfC like this. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 13:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  Well it is because several posters have specifically said (in selecting "A") that the other options are "Nazi Propaganda" and the fact he was a "war criminal". And also the selection of "A" seems so illogical as his face is partially obscured (by his hand and some shadow). So you can't blame some people for wondering what is going on here.Rja13ww33 (talk) 22:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

*Comment: TFD has posted in the Talk Page section ,"Main Photo", that he prefers Option E for purposes of this Rfc. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option E Images should show the person at the peak of their career and be representative of how they looked. A and D were taken after Goering's fall from power. B is him at a formal occassion, while C is a a romanticized picture for a postage stamp. Of them all, E comes closest: he's wearing his uniform, is grossly overweight and appearing cheeful and confident - the image most people are used to. TFD (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

(arbitrary break)

@Iamthehistory, ExcellentWheatFarmer, Zaunkoeniglich, SuperWIKI, and Hohum: In light of your participation in a prior discussion regarding this page's lede image (specifically entitled "Main Photo"), you are invited to participate in a new Rfc on the subject. Should you be inclined to do so, please share your thoughts on this thread. Thank you.Emiya1980 (talk) 01:48, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out that discussion. While I've noted some people here !voting "per Diannaa", I also noted a comment she made, in that very same discussion, that is directly on point with this debate, and is a very useful way to view the matter;

"The purpose of the photo in the infobox is to identify the subject of the article, not to right great wrongs or to present a particular point of view. Nazis, including the top brass as well as the rank and file and military, wore their uniforms virtually all the time. So photos of them in uniform are probably better for identification purposes than ones with civilian clothes." - Diannaa.

Thank you, couldn't have said that better myself. And with all that, I do hope that we will be bringing this RfC to close soon, as it's been dragging on now for over seven weeks. Perhaps someone should post a Close Request...? (just a thought) Cheers, - wolf 02:23, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

• @Thewolfchild: If the Rfc closes now, A (which features Göring NOT in uniform) will remain the infobox picture. Are you okay with that? Emiya1980 (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

What makes you say that? - wolf 03:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

By my tally, A has the most votes of any single option under consideration. At the present time, there are only two ways I can see this Rfc ending. Either (1) a consensus is held to be present in favor of A or (2) no consensus is found to be present in which case the status quo holds. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@Thewolfchild: With that being said, are you still in favor of closing the RFC? Emiya1980 (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

RfCs are not decided by vote, but by a consensus of those who participated in the RfC. At some point, someone (an editor experienced in closing RfCs, or better yet an admin, or best yet an admin experienced in closing RfCs) will review this RfC and as part of closing it, will decide if there was a consensus, and if so, what said consensus... said. Anyone disagreeing with the close can of course challenge it. I've had my say, now I'll wait for the close. - wolf 21:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

In that case, I think the Rfc should be held open for at least a few more weeks. While 18 editors have voted in favor of the current image, an equal number of editors have voted to change it. Until the scales have shifted decisively in either direction, I think it's too soon to close. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Emiya, please read this, this and this... carefully. It doesn't really matter how many are for or against, especially when it's tied, or even close, this is not about numbers (except for this), it's about compelling arguments, policy and making the best case. This has run long enough. Usually 30 days is good run for an Rfc, this is almost twice that. It's time to close this. - wolf 15:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no reason to believe that the consensus will ever shift decisively in either direction. I think it's time to request a closer to assess the consensus. — Diannaa (talk) 12:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The full photo of E might have been used for propaganda purposes during the Third Reich, but it does not look very much like a propaganda photo. Göring's body is leaning to one side. His facial expression could be interpreted as tired. What also speaks for E is that in all the other photos, except for Röhr's photo, his face is less visible. What speaks against Röhr's photo is that it was edited to make the face look younger. --Curiosity2023 (talk) 01:05, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment: It appears that this Rfc concerning the lede image for Hermann Göring will be closing soon. However, as of now, there doesn't appear to be a decisive consensus in either direction. If anyone has any second thoughts about what they've written or otherwise have not yet shared their opinions on the matter, now is the time to address it. Emiya1980 (talk) 00:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Emiya: "... as of now, there doesn't appear to be a decisive consensus either way."

- Again, this is not a vote. You can't say there is no consensus simply because there appears to be the same number of people in favour of the current image, as there are for the other all somewhat similar images. That is not how consensus is determined. Before making any more such comments, either here, or in any other consensus-building exercises, I would again ask that you read the comment I posted for you above, and the links it contains, so that you will hopefully gain a better understanding of how consensus on WP works (or how it's supposed to work). - wolf 02:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I know what Wikipedia's official policy is. However, in practice, the position with the most votes tends to receive the most deference when reaching a consensus. Emiya1980 (talk) 03:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Chicken and the egg. If there is a consensus, and a majority agrees with it, of course that is where most of the !votes bill be. But it's still supposed to consensus first. If an admin gets lazy and just goes by the majority, then often they will luck out and be right. But if not, then it gets challenged, and that does happen, with too much regularity afaic. Conversely, sometimes we will have an admin, with a backnone, who will declare a consensus that is only a supported by a minority of the !voters. That is always impressive to see, even if I happen to be in the majority. - wolf 04:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Impressive but not likely. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

A request for closure was filed by user:Nemov: Wikipedia:Closure requests#Talk:Hermann Göring#Rfc for Herman Göring's Lede Image (2024) — Diannaa (talk) 01:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Good. This has dragged on long enough; with no new consensus reached. Kierzek (talk) 18:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed Kierzek. This was unnecessarily lengthy, especially given the number of photos of him already distributed throughout the article and the fact that we've beaten this horse to death in the not-so-distant past.--Obenritter (talk) 21:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.