Talk:Hiberno-English/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Travellers

This is horribly offencive and will be removed immediatly.

• Knacker - itinerant or traveller. A small but persistent group of human pest, where domestic violence, fighting, general lawlessness, non-existent personal hygiene, skip (dumpster) pilfering and inbreading is common. "The knackers are raiding the skip again dad."

--James Brown Monster, 23:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesbrownmonster (talk • contribs)

It is offensive - the spelling of" inbreading "is offensive too. A pun on getting stuffed is almost irresistible.--Tumadoireacht (talk) 19:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Changed 'Republic of Ireland' to 'Ireland'

I changed the line 'British English, however, remains the greatest influence on grammar, spelling and lexicon on English in <the Republic of> Ireland.' as the language used can be found throughout the whole island of Ireland as opposed to just the Republic of Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.223.163.6 (talk) 11:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

False derivations

I am trying to go through the long list of jokey slang words in this article and change the fanciful folk derivations given to proper etymologies (e.g. I just fixed "jackeen" and "jacks"). But it's a mammoth task. Whoever entered all this text in the entry did no-one any favours -- there is no linguistic basis for any of it, just a desire for folksy whimsy. Help fix it please. Pleidhce (talk) 01:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Changed Dublin English section

I edited the Dublin English section so that all the facts there are directly derived from Dublin English: Evolution and Change by Raymond Hickey--an actual book by an actual linguist written two years ago. It's a start, at least. Why would you presume that someone who found a publisher is the final word. i worked with an old beekeeper who was illiterate but brilliant. When presented with information from the latest books about beekeeping he would laugh gently and say "That's all very well and it is really such a pity that the bees cannot read" --Tumadoireacht (talk) 03:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I, for one, welcome our linguistic overlords

Echoing sentiments scattered about on this page, this article is in need of a complete rewrite by a linguistic historian. Sorry folks, amateur linguistics is the stuff of bad jokes, and this page is an ad hoc, anecdotal, and thoroughly incomplete attempt at best. Not to mention it fails to acknowledge regional dialects and variations outside of the largest metropolitan areas, as if they don't exist. These local variations are in fact where some of the most interesting linguistic synergies are to be found. In summary, this article reads more like a chapter from a Fodor's travel guide to Ireland than an encyclopedia article.

Dublin, Cork and Kerry accents

I was looking at the list of English dialects in Wikipedia, which is very logically sub-divided. Under "Ireland" I then found Hiberno-English and came to this article. So I expected to then find the different 'dialects' of English as spoken in Ireland listed. When reading this article, however, it mentioned Dublin and says that the accents here differ from the rest of the country, and it mentions Cork and again says the accents differ from the rest of the country. It doesn't mention other accents. I'm not sure if the implication is that Dublin and Cork are exceptions, and the rest of the country all speaks a similar brand of 'Hiberno-English? I think this article could benefit from at least breaking down the dialects/accents in Ireland (i.e. Republic of Ireland as I assume Northern Ireland is covered under the UK), and ensuring that every area in Ireland is covered. I would suggest, for a start, that the distinctive Kerry accent should be kept separate from other accents. I think there may be a distinctive Donegal accent too, but I'm not sure about that. I know it's difficult because the accents just merge into one another as you travel around Ireland, but you do have that problem in every country. At the very least could I suggest that the accents be divided into the Cork accent, the Kerry accent, the rest of the country except Dublin, and then Dublin could be divided into two, the general Dublin accent, and the very pronounced accent you hear in the markets in central Dublin (the Dublin equivalent of 'Cockney'). What do others think? 82.35.15.212 06:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I gather dialects in the wild exhibit differences every 1 or 2 hundred miles; mass media and other factors interfere with that pattern. The way Hiberno-English seems set up as a discipline the interest is Irishness rather than dialect I think Hakluyt bean 02:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Dublin is dealt with in detail as a result of being the most heavily populated area in the country. Kerry and Cork are added, it would seem, to provide contrast. Accents vary widely throughout the country, with no real standard accent or dialect. One could divide first by province,i.e. Leinster, Munster, Connaught and Ulster and then further by county and/or towns and cities. ErraticIrishMess (talk) 02:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Please define airing cupboard.

what is "airing cupboard", "airing cupboard"?

As Time Goes By.

Thank You.

hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 18:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

airing cupboard. hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 21:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a cupboard (or press in Hiberno-English) over the water heater/boiler where the likes of bedclothes and towels are put after drying to "air" them. Donnacha 22:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In Ireland it's frequently called the hot-press

What a mess

Yes, this page is a disaster. Alas so many Irish pages on Wikipedia are the victims of ignorant enthusiasts. I could spend my whole life trying to fix these pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pleidhce (talk • contribs) 02:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC) Pleidhce (talk) 02:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I got rid of the totally amateurish and out-of-place section on Cork, which had no linguistic basis, but was obviously written by someone with a touching but misguided desire to talk about his/her home-town. Pleidhce (talk) 02:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is a hotch-potch of hunches, factoids, urban legend and folk-linguistic speculation, combined with lists of various favourite words and phrases, the whole misleadingly presented as reliable information. It reads like an article on plant physiology written by an accountant who fancies he has green fingers. It's in desperate need of attention, if not top-to-bottom rewriting, by a linguist (as opposed to an enthusiastic amateur) who has actually systematically studied Hiberno-English on the basis of the wealth of scholarship that's been done over the last century and more. Someone who won't, for example, confuse phonemes with letters, writing things like "'r' is pronounced wherever it occurs in the word".

For fecks sake this is wikipedia! If you want stuff like that go to Brittannica.

I agree this entry is a mess, although it's generally more incomplete than incorrect. Also, there's some historical dialect features that are fairly anachronistic in modern speech (the herd/bird/curd and hoarse/horse splits are pretty rare in most modern dialects--they mostly merge the same way the Americans and British do). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.73.95.84 (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

This may be Wikipedia, but it should still be accurate as possible. This seems odd for an article on Hiberno English, as there must be a large number of formal (primary and secondary textbook) references on it (my Syntax textbook used it to demonstrate differences from standard English syntax). -- Jim Witte —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.9.143.221 (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

I agree, this article is in need of a clean-up. 90% of it could be deleted in my opinion. Some of the constructions used as examples Hiberno-English are ridiculous and in no way indicative of language used by the vast majority of the population while many more are regional. The "Lexicon" section belongs in a dictionary of slang rather than a serious linguistics article and can be deleted. I'm going to wait and see if anyone has anything else to add to this discussion and then make some changes that I deem necessary in order to make this article as informative and factual as Wikipedia articles should be Retro2112 12:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.193.182 (talk)

Langerhead

""Langer" is a variant used especially in Cork but has began to spread through the rest of the country."

Langer originates with Irish soldiers in the english army stationed in India. Langar monkeys would wake them at all hours and throw crap at them so langar became a term of abuse. This was imported to Cork on their return. Check out http://langerland.com .

corrected the link (ar to er) Hakluyt bean 17:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Unrelated, but I popped in to say that the word scallion is by no means Hiberno-English. The Joy of Cooking (American, 1997 update) refers to the onion in question as "scallions, called green onions in some parts of the country.", but uses the term scallions in recipes. I'm in my kitchen in Florida looking at a store-bought Thai cooking sauce, and the recipe suggestion also specifies scallions. Just doing my part to debunk the scholarliness of this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.244.170.125 (talk • contribs).

Much American English derives from Hiberno and from Gaelic. The word is from the Greek. The usage is typically Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumadoireacht (talk • contribs) 19:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

For anyone wanting to know Irish phonology, really, not like this...

Here: http://venus.unive.it/canipa/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=pdf .. Go to Celtic on "English PronunciationS" and download it, you'll find the Irish accents WELL described

Langar monkey business

If Langar monkeys were a menace to the English army to the point where it became a term of abuse among them, then it's a bit baffling why the term survived only in Cork. I'd like a source on this etymology. It sounds like one of those top-of-the-head folk etymologies based on the coincidence of two like-sounding words.

Langur monkey

As far as I know, the term 'langer' isn't very common in any area other than Cork, although I've heard it being used in Dublin once or twice. Although I'm not absolutely sure of this, apparently, the reason the term 'langer' is common in Cork, is that the term was particularly popular with troops originating from Cork, who were stationed in India. It was originally a reference to the langur monkey's tail, which to the troops, appeared to have a phallic shape. Mushed 17:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That's enough Langers

http://www.corkslang.com/ :

• A disagreeable person - Derivation: Unknown, but note 'Élang' - a defect, flaw, weak spot. (Joynt and Knott)
• A penis - Derivation: Unknown, but 'Langur' - a long tailed monkey from India. (Concise Oxford Dictionary) Note influence of the Munster Fusiliers.
• Drunk - Derivation: Unknown Hakluyt bean 17:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"English"

Reading the article I see an awful lot of places where some Hiberno-English feature is set in contrast to "English"; except that the HE feature is shared with some or all dialects of American English. I assume that these were entered by someone who lives in Britain or elsewhere in the Commonwealth, but we should be careful about this sort of thing.

Also, we need to work on citing a whole lot more stuff in here. /blahedo (t) 18:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This mightn't go for everyone, but amongst a lot of people in south Dublin and North Wicklow 'Langer' is used to refer to someone FROM cork. probably because of their prolific use of the word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.37.46.228 (talk) 01:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

"Hot news tense"?

Can somebody confirm that the "hot news tense" and "warm news tense" really exist? Do they have a more correct linguistic name? -- Strib 04:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"hot news perfect" is from McCawley, James D. (1971), "Tense and Time reference in English", in Charles J. Fillmore and D. Terence Langendoen (ed.), Studies in linguistic semantics, New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, p. 104, ISBN 0030852676:

The present perfect in English has the following uses:

(a) to indicate that a state of affairs prevailed throughout some interval streching from the past into the present (Universal):

(31) I’ve known Max since 1960.

(b) to indicate the existence of past events (Existential):

(32) I have read Principia Mathematica five times.

(c) to indicate that the direct effect of a past event still continues (Stative):

(33) I can’t come to your party tonight - I’ve caught the flu.

(d) to report hot news (Hot news):

(34) Malcom X has just been assassinated.

"Hot news perfect" is a questionable category in general. It is still commonly used, but always in quotes; the term "perfect of recent past" (which is slightly different) is used instead by some. The suggestion the "after doing" in HE is used only for this form of the perfect, not for any others, is even more questionable. "Warm news perfect" looks like something a Wikipedian made up. The point about "hot news" is not the hotness but the newness; it emphasises the past act rather than its present relevance. jnestorius^(talk) 16:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

a bit racist

i think this is a bit racist, it seems to be full of prejudiced. although some of the stuff is correct, when writing irish english you dont need to write things like 'awk, aye, twil twil twil' and things like that. this should be changed to be more like standard english but without losing the hiberno enlighs aspect —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daniel625 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Etymologies

"Knacker Derived from the Gaelic 'eachaire' meaning a horse handler..."

Come on ... English Knacker - horse dealer etc.

The Hiberno-English Archive [1] suggests "n. someone dealing in horses (for excessive profit); pejor. a person involved in shady deals (cf. knack n. a trick, a device); (pejor.) a member of the travelling community; an impotent man < E dial. origin obscure." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.135.197.245 (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

knacker (n, vb) A dealer in old horses and other livestock. Scan. It formerly meant a saddler and harness maker. Ice. knakkr (saddle). Now used as a verb in colloquial E to indicate anything spoilt or ruined or tired-out (knackered). from English words which have a Scandinavian Etymology Hakluyt bean 17:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hiberno-English

So far as I can tell it's English that has been profoundly influenced by features of the Irish language hiberno-english.com. Quite a lot of what the article contains atm is not really in the category, seems to me. Hakluyt bean 18:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

In Irish there is a modh connealach, a conditional tense which doesn't exist in English. In English if you ask someone if they will do something, eg "Will you complete the task", it can only be answered I will or I will not, Irish has "I might" or "I may" as legitimate answers. Then there's the old gag, one yellow line means no parking at all, two yellow lines means no parking at all, at all. Repetition for emphasis is more prevalent in Irish than English, such as many many years ago, far far away, and ordering two pints every round. 83.70.248.72 00:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is simply wrong. Of course one may answer "I might" or "I may" in response to that question. Where did you learn to speak English? [unsigned]

Sorry, I don't know Gaeilge, what does "I might" mean? A long time ago in a galaxy far far away... More seriously, the answer "I might" is not conditional anything; the auxiliary verb :would ,not the auxiliary verb :might, is called conditional. The use is termed a MOOD not a tense; there is no such tense as conditional. If you have to be wrong, please don't do it on Wikipedia. Froggo Zijgeb 00:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Gaelige has the módh coinniollach, which is not a mood in Irish, it is an actual tense, you don't add might or may, every verb has a distinct form. Kool Aid Relic (talk) 18:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a mood, as indicated my the word "Módh", because one is speaking about potential actions, as opposed to the usual "indicative mood" (definite action) or "imperative mood" (commands). The Irish for tense is "Aimsir". The conditional mood can appear as present conditional, past conditional, or future conditional tenses. Just because English demands the auxiliary "would"/"could", doesn't mean it lacks a conditional mood. 137.43.55.43 (talk) 19:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The modh connealach is better translated to "I would" or "I would have" than "I might". It is its own tense, one that english does not directly have. Because of this, it remains in hiberno-english. Saying "I would have gone to the shop" is the hiberno-english way of saying "I did not go to the shop". 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Northern Ireland

Presumably Hiberno-English is spoken in Ireland and Northern Ireland? This isn't stated anywhere - the intro should say so. Ben Finn 21:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• But Northern Ireland is part of Ireland, so it does not need to be stated. [prepares to duck...] Snalwibma 18:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
• Absolutely no need to duck. The above guy was clearly trying to be funny. 86.43.160.67 18:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
• You realise that N.I. is legally, culturally, politically and socially a different country, right? That's like saying Canada is the same country as America because they're both on the same continent...If there's a different accent, currency, prime minister, political system, judicial system, educational system, brand names available, age restrictions, law enforcement procedures, economy and military, I think it's safe to say it's a different country, yeah... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.69.112 (talk) 16:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
• Well, then, by that definition I suppose prior to 6 December 1922 the 26 counties was a different "country" to, well, the 26 counties of today. Funny how Dublin, Cork and Galway have not moved though! Dastardly natives! There's only one Ireland, no matter how many times the colonial power decides to divide the country up into different states. The game is up for the British Empire, and the privileges of its remnants across the world. 86.42.84.131 (talk) 07:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Irish English?

Should the article be called Irish English instead? That was the most common name in the past, to my knowledge, although I don't claim any academia on the subject. Why Hiberno, it's like going back to Roman times. Come to think of it, the Romans never reigned in Ireland. - Gold_heart 12:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• This was discussed some time ago - see the archive here. Snalwibma 12:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. Could Hiberno-English be a neologism, WP:NEO, an if that is case, would there be call for a change in title? -Gold_heart 12:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

In every case, "Irish English" should at least be mentioned in the opening sentence; I've just edited the article accordingly. --Jonik (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Bucklepper

Added; how was this essential HE word missed?!86.42.222.157 14:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

To be sure to be sure

What a load of rot. I've never heard this nonsense in Ireland. This article looks like it was edited by someone whose sum total knowledge of language use in Ireland is based on 'The Quiet Man' and 'Far and Away.' Hollywood Irish is not an actual language, you understand. Would someone PLEASE have a go at making this article less silly? To be sure, to be sure - come off it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.203.12.243 (talk) 15:15, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

I've heard the majoritiy of the words here, including 'to be sure to be sure' - sometimes films are annoyingly accurate!

Andrewl957 23:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• I've lived in Dublin my entire life, and I've been to Monaghan and Cavan enough to become familiar with the dialects - never heard anyone say that. I've come across old geezers in pubs that spit onto the ground if you mention England, but never came across one of those stereotypical leprechaun types... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.69.112 (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I built a kitchen with a Kerryman -his two stock expression were greeting "Any news,Any news?" and when measuring"to be sure to be sure"--Tumadoireacht (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a linguistics jounrnal

Does anyone actually know the full phonetic alphabet? Do they know what 'alveolar pronunciation' sounds like, or what a monophthong is? Seriously, is the purpose of this entry to inform, or impress the reader? Because either way I am neither informed nor impressed.

Someone needs to either translate this stuff, or go back to whatever it was before. I'd take informal over needlessly complicated anyday... 83.70.69.112 16:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)Emerald

IPA is the only way to express in text how a language is spoken. The only alternative is to add a bunch of MP3 files. Are you going to do that? If not, the IPA stays. --Red King (talk) 12:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Chemistry articles shouldn't use fancy-pants phrases like "dinucleotide" and "phosphorence" either. 137.43.55.43 (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Why is technical gibberish allowed in linguistic articles but not elsewhere?

I think that if someone edited the "personal computer" entry into a detailed, jargon-filled description of the layout of various microprocessor circuits, people would object. And yet that is what has happened to this language article. To be fair, though, the changes on this page bring it into line with the other language articles on Wikipedia - it isn't just this article, it is all of them. I do love the ability to really dig into something that readers enjoy here; you simply can't get that from the encyclopedia on your bookshelf. For that reason I hate to whine too much on this subject, since presumably if we got rid of all the jargon, we would be back to the kind of fluff that was this article before the linguistics geek made it unreadable. But I think it is reasonable to question whether this is a real encyclopedia article (as the comments above do). Perhaps the best of both worlds could be achieved if the technical info was left intact, but was made more accessible with more examples and explanations. I want this info to stay in the article - but I want people to understand it (I want to understand it). Presenting it in such a nakedly inaccessible format does not consider the audience and is frankly quite arrogant. Kgdickey (talk) 01:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have just tried to read this article. It is of almost no use to anyone who is not a specialist in linguistics. This is not something just any editor can fix, or I would have tried. It needs an expert who can explain without the jargon. I appreciate that this is likely a difficult task. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

What gibberish? If you don't understand what is going on, then go and read the International Phonetic Alphabet article, same as you would for any other topic you don't understand. IPA is the only way to use text to indicate pronunciation. Otherwise we need to record a load of MP3 files. Are you going to do that? --Red King (talk) 12:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. This is useless gibberish to the approximately 99.5% of the population who are not trained linguists. I mean really, the Phonology section could be read absolutely unchanged as a Monty Python skit. It is so completely incomprehensible to most people that it's actually funny. How about something useful on this interesting topic. GillArts 04:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gillartsny (talk • contribs)

I agree with Red King. Go read the IPA article. Trust me, nothing in linguistics is as difficult as it seems. You will see a lot of jargon, but it always looks way more complicated than it actually is. If I can understand this stuff, you can too. Thegryseone (talk) 08:37, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Definite Article Clarification?

Though I risk the ever-popular Wikipedian accusation of American bias by even asking, could someone possibly see it in their heart to add a sentence to point out what exactly is atypical about the sentence below? Which "the" in this sentence is unusual in British English, and why?

• She had the flu so he brought her to the hospital.

As one of those ignorant, ethnocentric, and badly dressed 67 percent myself, I guess I've never heard this sentence phrased the correct way. Xezlec (talk) 06:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

In English English diseases never take a 'the', and you'd probably say 'She had flu so he took her to hospital' Simon Q (talk) 15:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. In "English" English you would not say "the flu", but in Hiberno-English it is likely that you would. This a carry-over from Gaelic where the definitive article can be used for emphasis e.g. Tá an fliú aicí stresses that "She has the flu" whereas Tá fliú aici ("She has (a) flu") lacks any great emphasis. --sony-youth^pléigh 15:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, "she flu to hospital", saves ink. ;~)) 78.19.40.19 (talk) 16:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting about the Irish use of "the". Any citations? 86.42.91.234 (talk) 12:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

PS: Surely the flu would be on her/uirthi? 86.42.91.234 (talk) 12:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No citations but it's accurate, I had to read that sentence five times before I realised that speakers of 'English-English' would not use 'the flu' and 'the hospital'! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of letters of the alphabet

The article mentions the letters a,h and z. I would have thought the pronunciation of "r" (rhyming with oar rather than are)is the most noticeably different letter in hiberno-english 81.62.155.49 (talk) 10:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Text changed - though I'm not convinced the paragraph in question is correctly positioned within the article. Snalwibma (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Grand

Just noticed that there's no mention of the word grand - probably the single most common hiberno-english word (or hiberno-english usage of a word anyway) Any mention of it would probably need to point out the differences in real usage and that of Oirish characters in certain (mostly American, but even the odd British) films!81.62.169.112 (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

'Isn't it well for you'

Just googled this as a fella said it to me and all the results that came up were Irish. It's cute. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

'You and whose army?'

Where did this come from? It's a great one. In school in the 1980s it was all the rage as a generic response to 'I'll kick the living shite out of you' and other fine sentiments such as 'I'd hammer ten shades of shite out of you'. I remember one incredibly annoying spiky-haired little fella, who was really tiny, used to say that to everybody who rose to his annoyance and then run with a big smile on him before they got him in a headlock and did the aforementioned. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008

also prevalent during my childhood (1950's and 60's) in the predominantly celtic ottawa valley.Toyokuni3 (talk) 16:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Scope of the article

Another editor has queried my deletion of some terms which did not fit this statement in the article: "However, some unique characteristics exist, especially in the spoken language, owing to the influence of the Irish language on the pronunciation of English." (my emphasis) Let me reiterate my position; unless a term is uniquely used in this dialect it does not belong here. Unless its unique usage can be verifiably demonstrated using reliable sources, it does not belong here. It doesn't seem difficult or controversial to me, but there you go. This would be a better place to discuss the matter than on my talk page I think. --John (talk) 18:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

"I have you now"

OK, where does that come from? Most of us say it to mean 'I understand you now' (as my elderly neighbour just did). Is that the same in British or US English? 86.42.119.12 (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have heard this in the UK but mostly people say "got you" or "got you now". Fainites ^barleyscribs 17:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Help wanted: Linguistic studies on transition between languages

I have T.P. Dolan and P.W. Joyce's studies on Hiberno-English. However, I got in a discussion with a guy who denied the existence of a transitional phase when a community is changing from one language to another: he reckoned the Irish went from speaking Irish to speaking British English without such a phase. I contended that there was a transitional phase, that there had to be such a phase, and that it was reflected in grammatical forms direct from the old language- e.g. táim tar éis mo dhinnéar. These grammatical constructions, much moreso than Irish words used in English, are for me the solid basis of Hiberno-English. Are there any linguistic studies of societies undergoing such changes that would support my contention of a transitional phase (which seems like basic common sense)? If somebody knows about this, this article would benefit hugely from a linguistically-focused section on this aspect. Thanks very much in advance/Míle bhuíochas as ucht bhur cabhair. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

When English was adopted in 1600-1800 very few schools existed, and so the poor slotted each word into a Gaelic-style word order as they learnt it. And then copied each other.86.42.221.153 (talk) 12:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There are some well established amusing studies of swathes of Africa where Hiberno_English prevails due to teaching Irish missionary nuns and priests. The best example is "I usedn't to do something" versus the cumbersome received UK english of" I did not used to do something".--Tumadoireacht (talk) 20:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Bearna Baol

Just heard Seán O'Rourke on The News at One on RTÉ Radio 1 saying 'today the Minister [for Finance] was in the bearna baol over the budget'. Nice! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.3.209 (talk) 12:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

More Grammar Derived From Irish

You're missing how people often use prepositions to express feelings and the like.

For example instead of saying: He's a mean fella when he's drunk. people would usually say: He's a mean fella when he has a few drinks on him. as in the Irish for a feeling, like: bhi athas an domhain orm. (The happiness of the world is on me)

Also, in the dublin english theres no mention of how some people mash syllables together, like when people say "howiya" instead of "how are you" and "yungfla" instead of "young fella". Oh, and there's the ever annoying "wilyumee'huwr" instead of "will you meet her". - Cian, 11:42, 17th April 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.147.172.242 (talk) 11:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Aye for Yes

Outside of Northern Ireland, Donegal and around the border areas i've not heard an Irishman using aye for yes, are yous becoming like lilly limp wristed Londoners? 167.1.176.4 (talk) 09:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

What About Northern Ireland?

Does this article include the English spoken in Northern Ireland? If not, then where is the article on the English spoken in Northern Ireland? Thegryseone (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Trudgill distinguishes between Northern Irish English (the "ScotEng-origin varieties spoken in the north of Ireland (not: Northern Ireland), i.e. Ulster-Scots and Mid-Ulster English") and Southern Irish English ("the EngEng-origin varieties of the south of Ireland"). "This distinction is not coterminous (emphasis in original) with the political division of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland". Soundfiles: NIrEng SIrEng I'm [dʒæˑkɫɜmbɚ] and I approve this message. 22:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Mid Ulster English. jnestorius^(talk) 23:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Truce term

Hi. I'm writing an article on this subject and would like to know what Irish children use as truce terms. Truce terms are words used to call a temporary respite in a game to do something like tie a shoelace, go to the loo or discuss the rules. They are often regional. I really would like sources too. Such as regional or folk dictionaries and so on. Many thanks! Fainites ^barleyscribs 17:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Come on guys! There must be somebody in Ireland who remembers using truce terms at school? Primary school? Pax, pays, tax, keys anyone? Fainites ^barleyscribs 22:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't give sources but I seem to remember saying 'pause', 'safety', 'break' or just 'time out'. Either that or we'd shout things and yell stop until the game stopped...

Mostly we used to say "Touch me before I tell you and I'll plant you. you heathen Sasenach bastard" in kindergarten--Tumadoireacht (talk) 01:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I remeber talking about being "in the den" (usually a wall you had to reach before being caught). I can't remember the word for stopping play. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Loodar/Ludar

Doesn't just come from lúdramán, it's a combination of lúdramán and the English loser.

Also added lúdramán since amadán was in the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.40.41 (talk) 03:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Celtbion/slabber

What does "slabber" mean - it seems to be a dialect or slang term. Autarch (talk) 15:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Anglo-Norman English

The introduction to this article gives the impression that English in the Pale was established during the plantations of Ireland during the 16th and 17th centuries when it would much more likely have been established around the time of the Norman conquest of Ireland during the 12th century. The article definitely needs a separate history section to properly explain where all the different influences come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.2.157 (talk) 22:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yer Wan (Your One)

This always refers to a woman, it is not used when one is not sure of sex. Also it should not be spelled 'yer wan' as this is an approximation of its pronunciation in some parts of the country, not a spelling. It could similarly be spelled 'yur wun'. The phrase is 'your one'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

2nd person plural

"Local Dublin can feature the word 'ye' for the second-person plural (although the more common Hiberno-English 'youse' is still common)."

This sentence confuses me to no end, it says 'common' too much... Local Dublin uses 'youse' more than ye, and the rest of the country uses ye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Culchie Alternative Origin Theory

I read somewhere that the term Culchie originates from UCD in the 1960s, where students from the country would go to study Agricultural Science, and were referred to as 'Culchies' by those from the city. Can't remember where I saw that though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.132.50 (talk) 19:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The use of 'less' in place of 'fewer'?

A common feature of Hiberno-English is the use of 'less' instead of the England English use of fewer, e.g. I would rather attend less meetings. Perhaps there might be some mention of it in the lexicon?

Eoin O (talk) 10:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Eoin O'Mahony

Equally common in British English, I'd say. Unless you can find a source that says it's more frequent in Ireland, forget it! SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 11:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I think English speakers everywhere do that. • Anakin ^(talk) 12:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yup - no evidence that less people do it in Britain, or in America! SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 12:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:V

Can we remember that this article has to conform to WP:V and WP:RS, just like any other. I have put a lot of time over a long period into trimming out neologism, slang and "I heard it in the pub"-type entries from the "Lexicon" section. I inserted a hidden note into the article reminding folks not to add unreferenced material. Maybe that will help, I hope so. --John (talk) 15:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The dialect in this page is way out of date!

The dialect here is even out of date to my grandparents!It needs to be relooked! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.112.11 (talk) 12:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Misspelling

Being from Dublin I would say that the plural form of "you" should be spelled "yous" rather than "youse" as in the article. Do others agree? If so, I think the article should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.241.118 (talk) 18:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Whenever

It has been my observation that Irish people often use "whenever" when most(?) English speakers would use "when". For example, "I will tell him whenever I see him" would, I believe, mean "I will tell him every time I see him" to English-English speakers, but means "I will tell him the next time I see him" to many Irish-English speakers. I have no idea whether this accurate, whether it applies widely to different Irish-English dialects, but if it is accurate perhaps it could be added? 122.107.58.27 (talk) 06:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Problems with article

A number of points that need to be deleted or amended: - The article states that /r/ is postalveolar tap in "conservative" accents. "Conservative accents" is also mentioned later. An explanation please. - Distinction between /w/ and /hw/ preserved - not true. I've never heard this. - thin and tin, then and den described as "near-homophones". These are not near-homophones, they are total homophones! - herd-bird-curd - articles claims distinction in vowel maintained. Where in Ireland is this so? I've never heard this. - took is never proounced with a /u:/. Only certain words like book, cook and hook. Some corrections to the Irish language phrases cited:

- Bíonn siad ag caint go leor ar a fóin póca - should read "Déanann siad a lán cainte ar a bhfóin phóca - Is air a bhíonn mé ag smaoineamh - should read "Is air a bhím ag smaoineamh" - Ar imigh sibh go léir chun é a fheicint? - should read "é a fheiscint" - críochnaitha - should read "críochnaithe". - An raibh sé sibh go léir nó tusa féin? - should read "Sibhse go léir a bhí ann nó tú féin amháin?"

And, no one in Ireland ever ever says "To be sure, to be sure" in spite of what one might hear in a Hollywood film. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 13:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

1. I disagree, the distinction between 'when' and 'wen', 'which' and 'witch' are very clear. The distinction between /w/ and /hw/ is preserved.
2. thin/tin, then/den are only exact homophones in Dublin. Note for example the clear difference between 'thai' and 'tie' in the west. But not lisped of course - the former is pronounced with the tongue fully forward against the upper front teeth and front palate, the latter is with the tip of the tongue touching just the upper teeth
3. herd and bird are very different in the west. But curd and bird are very similar.
4. I agree re took, though it might be a local dialect as rhyming book with cook/hook is very Dublin (elsewhere it rhymes with took). --Red King (talk) 18:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

1. They may be very clear where you live but I've never heard this either in my home town (in south Leinster) or in Dublin. 2. They are exact homophones where I come from too. Similarly, there is no difference between 'thai' and 'tie'. 3. Herd-bird-curd are all homophones in southern Leinster. 4. Took is always with /u/ where I come from and the same goes for "book" but "cook" and "hook" are always long /u:/.

An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

On point 4, the sound of a double "o", it is inconsistant within any english dialect. The best example is "good schooling". This would never be pronouced "/gu:d/ /schul/ing" 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:55, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Moving Dublin English to its own article

I would say the Dublin English section is now long enough to merit its own article. It takes up a big chunk of the page—this article should be an overview of all the dialects in Ireland and not focus too much on one in particular. Given that it's a big city, Dublin has a few dialects and these could all be discussed and expanded upon in a separate article.
Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 10:37, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I would say that this is in its entirety one of the WORST articles I've read in ages. It needs massive clean-up and now would not be the time to split the Dublin English section off from it. As an aside, wouldn't it be nice to have some maps and isoglosses? -- Evertype·✆ 13:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I think it could take some pointers from Mid Ulster English, although it needs a bit of a cleanup too. ~Asarlaí 13:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I've been trying to keep the dross off this for ages now and it is an uphill task. Everything needs to be referenced or it needs to go. Some more help in clearing out the "heard-it-in-the-pub" stuff would be appreciated. --John (talk) 14:17, 28 September 2010 (UTC

Way forward

Since June 2008 I have been trying to stop the influx of horrible, cute, "heard-in-the-pub" slang and neologisms from swamping this article. Our safeguard against this is WP:V, and I think this needs to be ruthlessly enforced. I asked this question quite a while ago, and inserted a hidden note on a particularly problematic section of the article. What we need is someone with the time and patience to find sources for those things that can be sourced, and then we can finally trim out the dross. It's a nice question whether, failing this, the article in a week or two should be (as at present) 90% unsourced but with some interesting and probably true material, or as a (sourced) stub with potential for expansion. I am leaning towards the latter. What do others think? --John (talk) 18:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

John, the vast majority of these sayings are used in Ireland all the time or were used a lot. The phrases here are much more likely to have been heard from parents or grandparents than "heard in the pub". It would nice to have citations for them all, but failing that I think it's better to allow people to decide for themselves what they want to take on board. Some of the older sayings an Irish person might just about remember being used from years ago, and they might be interested in reading these phrases again. I personally would also take the one or two ones I haven't heard before with a grain of salt, the others are many decades or centuries old. Anonywiki (talk) 03:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Whether they are decades, centuries, or months old, verifiability is the only plausible test of inclusion here; otherwise (as we have seen) we get a great rambling list of putative and unverifiable dicdefs. I'm as keen as you are on preserving and even celebrating dialect and language, but this is not Wikipedia's main focus. --John (talk) 05:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, John is right. I say unfortunately because it may mean removing a lot of content from this article. Our verifiability policy is clear that challenged material may be removed. I don't really favor enforcing the policy as to things that both of you know to be true, but for which we simply cannot locate sources (in other words, material that neither of you wish to challenge). On the other hand, it may encourage people to make additions without sources if they see that large parts of this article are not sourced. As far as I can tell, there are lots of things in here without either citations or {{fact}} tags (like the material from the recent disagreement). I think the first step is for each of you to tag uncited assertions that you wish to challenge with {{fact}} and then we wait a reasonable period (I previously suggested a month) and then remove tagged content for which no references have been produced. Content can always be added back later as references are found.--Chaser (talk) 16:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The works of Roddy Doyle, James Joyce, John B. Keane and others must be mines of suitable citations. --Red King (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we need third-party secondary sources which talk about the words rather than primary sources which use them. The alternative would be for articles like this one to expand indefinitely; I love Joyce, to take one of your examples, but imagine if we had to gloss every neologism and pun he used! The William Shakespeare article doesn't do that and neither should this one. --John (talk) 19:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

hiberno-english.com in References

The website http://www.hiberno-english.com/ appears to no longer be online. The WayBack Machine has it at http://web.archive.org/web/20080616105858/http://www.hiberno-english.com/ - However, I have not changed anything as I am not clear on Wiki's policy regarding archival sites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.189.102 (talk) 08:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Wet Thing

Is this really a phrase which is in common use in Ireland? I'd say it is seldom used and not worth mentioning on a page like this.

"Wet thing – A crude turn of phrase describing a sexually attractive girl or woman. More recently, the term is simply put as wet. Wetser is also used, mainly in Dublin. The term is more common in reference to females but can apply to males in certain contexts. "Jaysus, yer one over there's a wet thing!" "That bird I met at Wesley was wet!"" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomsweeney (talk • contribs) 00:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I suspect the term refers rather to a sexually eager female Tom, for whom Wesley is, I am told, a magnet. A young lothario friend tells me that when one drops the hand if it does not feel like feeding sugar lumps to a horse then one should seek succour elsewhere--Tumadoireacht (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the entire section. It was generally lacking cites, unverifiable, and by the look of it mostly unnotable slang. Wikipedia is also not a dictionary, which is what the section appeared to be trying to be. -- Escape Orbit^(Talk) 00:12, 14 January 2011 (UTC

I hotly disagree with the peremptory good faith 25,000 character revert by Escape Orbit Many of the references were unlinked and needed work but many also contained easily verifiable clues for that word, referencing songs and history and other WERE referenced which should not have been touched .

A country where speaking ones' own language and where learning were until quite recently illegal has, quite naturally a stronger oral tradition and a more casual link with attribution and etymology.

I suggest that for starters she/he revert his/her own edit and offer a grace period of, say a month for others to tidy up the etymologies.I would be willing to lend a hand. Putting up a noticeboard notice would help. It is a rich resource.

After that a cull of the worst offenders could be considered.

Sometimes verifiability becomes a fetish that gets in the way of the prime purpose of sharing knowledge. In gardening or in cooking compost or stock are not ends in themselves but tools to produce lovely flowers and sauces

"Generally lacking cites" is not a good justification for taking out the good with the bad in a great sweep. Better in than out IMO.

--Tumadoireacht (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm with User:Tumadoireacht on this one, sorry. As a native Dubliner myself, a quick glance over the list shows about 90% of them to be correct and highly likely to be verifiable. I'm comfortable working on getting them sourced too, over the next week or so. I view Hiberno-English as part of our cultural heritage and given that the English language is a relative (well, sorta) newcomer to Ireland, it's important to document this - Alison ^❤ 01:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Be careful Alison or we will be accused of Original Research ( a "mortaller" in the wikiuniverse) because we are native speakers with an ear and an opinion and a laptop- the touching faith that wikipedia has that if someone managed to find a book publisher that that confers legitimacy on their opinions is amusing as is the fact that many folk just use wikipedia for making up table quiz questions or settling bets. You are "the heart of the roll" for weighing in --Tumadoireacht (talk) 03:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I will revert my edit and am happy to discuss. As Tumadoireacht indicates above, just because individual Wikipedia editors can vouch for a phrase does not make it verifiable. Most of the content may be genuine Dublin craic, but that can't be verified by the reader and doesn't mean it should be in this article. And I still suspect that more than a few are just amusing turns of phrase that someone heard down the pub once, or made up as a private joke. That makes them neologisms, which don't belong here. It also remains the fact that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and if this article is to have a Lexicon section it should strictly stick to a small selection of solidly cited examples of proven relevance and common usage. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I tentatively agree with EO here. See also this section above. --John (talk) 22:19, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a sneaking disregard for the anti lexicography stance of WP for short lists like this. Looking through the list there are a lot more referenced than I expected

My eyes lit on "acting the cod" and two derivations occurred to me -an actor's codpiece or smelling odd like codfish. I must go down the Pub for an authoritative second opinion :) I think a distinction ought to be made between books of merit on H.E. and dodgy books published for the tourist trade or by Sir Bufton Tufton after one pink gin too many --— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 22:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Taking this article to pieces

Has been mentioned on this talk page a number of times, but I think that this article needs gutting. As is, it's pretty hard to tell the wheat from the chaff with it - if I was coming to it for encyclopedic knowledge, I'd go away empty-handed.

I'm happy to start taking chunks out of this article - maybe putting them here or in a non-displaying namespace & putting stuff back in as it gets verified. Just wanted to mention it here first before I started hacking at the thing - reckon anyone seriously interested will respond here, as opposed to most edits, which seem like kids adding their latest favourite words.

If there's no objections, I'll start doing this over the next few days Dave (talk) 23:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC

This little kid would like to see a generous list of hiberno-english words retained so that a reader approaching the article for the first time could actually see a good dollop of hiberno-english rather than just a gielgudian grapple with rhoticity and glottal stops. Although WP is not an indiscriminate list it is also not a scientific journal[[2]]. A list and some clearly described science improve this and most articles. I suggest that Dave foment his proposed improvements elsewhere and then present them in this discussion page for discussion. This approved method is underused but useful. The article needs work without doubt. Even the first paragraph is a joke. But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let the article stand untroubled by major demolition until there is consensus. Per our definition, an encyclopedia is a compendium and the WP highest aim is to be a repository of ALL knowledge. Cha bhi fios aire math an tobair gus an tràigh e.--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 02:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

What use is your well if its water's dirty though? =) I don't know the first thing about guttural stops, so I'm not advocating a technical manual. Saying it's a compendium of knowledge - that knowledge isn't meant to be based on original research. My view would be to get rid of the complete rubbish, take stuff that seems useful & put tags on it, & then try and clean it the whole thing when it's more managable. Don't mind putting together a page outside of the main namespace as a start Dave (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan Dave.You are quite right. Attribution is King after all even if the king snores after dinner ! I think there may yet be a place in the hyperspace world for a Wikispeculation site or Wikistories where all the salmon that John West rejects can swim freely. Editors frpm the Flann O'Brien branch of etymological lexicography could disport themselves there to their hearts content.It is easy to forget that this is not the UN, few are watching and most people do not give a toot, about pages outside their areas of expertise.--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 04:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed redraft

As mentioned above, I've worked on a redraft of the current page, which can be found here. Most of the material is still intact. I've removed sections that are unsourced, especially stuff that I don't know to be true, and have tried to source refereces for other bits.

Still needs a lot of work, mainly focused on citing the vocabulary and putting main section headings in place.

What do you think? I'd be proposing replacing what we have currently with this & then continuing work in the main namespace Dave (talk) 21:50, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Scallion/spring onion/green onion

Erm...there is actually a difference between the three items mentioned. The scallion is the dull green bulbless variety. The spring onion has a bulb, while a green onion is of a vivid green colour, again bulbless. ^{‣Mac Tíre} _Cowag 13:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Scallions do have a bulb, although it is quite small. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Well they do, but I'm more talking in comparison with the others. It's not scientific (as far as I know), but to suggest they are the same is just wrong. Where I grew up (in Meath) the three terms were used quite commonly, but each referred to a different shape/colour/aspect of this type of onion. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 01:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I've a feeling that usage may vary. I never heard of anything but scallions growing up in Dublin, and only came across the term "spring onion" as a British name for scallion when I started reading British recipe books. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 23:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I think usage probably does vary. I can't say for the rest of the country, but here are some images of what we in Meath (original Royals, rather than inclusive of the newcomers, as their usage will, no doubt, vary from the original usage in Meath) would describe as green onions, spring onions, and scallions: Spring onions (notice the bulb is larger than the "stalk"), Scallions (notice the bulb is the same size as the "stalk" or only ever so slightly bigger), and Green onions (notice the bright green colour, and again a lack of bulb, or at least the bulb is the same width as the stalk). ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 10:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting! I think I would happily call all of those 'scallions'. Certainly the second and the third; the first look a bit on the big side, but I wouldn't have any other name for them - as I said, I had until now simply thought that 'spring onion' was the British term equivalent to Irish 'scallion'. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 11:40, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah, but isn't that the beauty of language! Different strokes for different folks, as they say. Even if we take the word "kettle" - many here in Ireland would assume you were talking about the chorded jug used to boil water, or the "steel" jug with spout and lid that sits and whistles on your granny's cooker for the same purpose. Ask an American though, and you'll find that a kettle there can refer to a much broader spectrum of vessels used for boiling any sort of liquid or soup! Or the old chestnut - broiler vs. grill! ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 11:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Norman Invasion

Surely, when the Normans arrived the language they spoke was French. Also, the languages used at court were French and Latin. Middle English was still evolving into English. Also, given that the Normans, famously, 'became more Irish than the Irish themselves', then, surely, 'English' did start to arrive into Ireland until much, much later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artied (talk • contribs) 10:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

At all, at all

I note the following in the text:

the Irish ar ngíthe corresponds to English "at all", so the stronger ar ngíthe go bhfuar ina bfhuil go shó gives rise to the form "at all at all". "I've no money at all at all."

"ar ngíthe" does not exist in Irish and "ar ngíthe go bhfuar ina bfhuil go shó" is meaningless gibberish. What is more, I am Irish and have never heard anyone say "At all, at all". I have only ever heard this in American films from "stage Irishman" characters. I suggest that the reference be deleted unless a credible source for its by Irish people can be produced. 212.129.68.207 (talk) 13:04, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

As someone born and raised in Waterford, I can attest that "at all, at all" is something I've said. I cannot work out what the irish is supposed to mean, so it may well be gibberish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

'd' between 'r' and 'l' or 'n' in Dublin English

There's no mention of the tendency to add a 'd' phoneme between 'r' and 'l' or 'n' in 'Local' Dublin English. E.g 'Herald' being realised as [hɛ:(ɹ)dld], 'girl' as [gɛ(ɹ)dl] and 'puttering' as [pʊtɛ(ɹ)dn]. Can anyone fix this/find sources for this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.225.183 (talk) 19:43, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Will for shall British

"Will is often used where British English would use "shall" ("Will I make us a cup of tea?"). The distinction between "shall" (for first-person simple future, and second- and third-person emphatic future) and "will" (second- and third-person simple future, first-person emphatic future), maintained by many in England, does not exist in Hiberno-English, with "will" generally used in all cases." --I'd say this is generally inaccurate 'Should i make us a cuppa tea?' would be much more common than 'shall' which is old fashioned and marginalised to the upper and middle classes i'd say. 90.222.161.11 (talk) 21:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

'Z's or 'S's

So which i'z' it? RashersTierney (talk) 23:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Given that both are equally acceptable in British English (which is what we use for spelling with in Ireland), my opinion is that it shouldn't have been changed in the first place. As far as I can see, most of it occurs in the lengthy section about regional accents which is one of the few well-sourced elements in the article, and while I didn't go trawling all the way through the history, it looks like the person who put in the work on that used the 'ize' spelling, so I think their preference should be respected. I know the spelling manual of style, when it talks about not changing existing spelling versions, is really referring to US-British differences, but I think that would be a good rule of thumb for the ise/ize difference in British (or Irish, if you wish) spelling too. --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 00:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The use of s rather than z is generally the spelling in the local variant. RashersTierney (talk) 01:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

It may be more common, but I don't think it's "generally the spelling". The "z" spelling is given first in the Oxford English Dictionary, for example. The idea that the "-ize" spelling is an Americanism is a misconception, and we shouldn't go around changing articles based on misconceptions! --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:11, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Americanizms really have nothing to do with it. Nor really does the OED, unless it now determines rather than interprets language use. RashersTierney (talk) 01:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

If we're not going to rely on dictionaries to indicate what are accepted spellings, what do you suggest as an alternative? And if Americanisms have nothing to do with it, what is your objection to "-ize" spellings? --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

So which dictionaries, in your view, should we consider definitive for Hiberno English? RashersTierney (talk) 01:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

This is a case of WP:ENGVAR. "-ise" endings are far more common in modern Irish and British English. — Jon C.^ॐ 08:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Old English and Irish English? (Title of section 3.2)

How could there ever be any Old English retention in Irish English since Irish English only began ca. 1100 at the earliest? Besides there isn't a single example of an Old English retention in that section. Shouldn't that section's name then be changed to "From Middle English". Incidentally are Middle English and Old English hyphenated? This is not the usage I personally have most often observed. Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 15:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

non rhoticity

Currently there is only a little bit on non-rhoticity near the top of the pronunciation section, worth adding its own section? 195.162.87.201 (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

nonsense in first(!) sentence

"English was first brought to Ireland as a result of the Norman invasion of the late 12th century, although during that time the Normans did not speak English, but rather Norman-French." - This obviously needs to be rephrased and requires more information to not be complete nonsense because invaders obviously cannot introduce a language they don't speak. It's truly amazing how many WP editors don't bother to read what they've written and how many other editors don't check even the introduction of articles they work on... --Espoo (talk) 12:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: article not moved. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 09:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

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Hiberno-English → Irish English – more common name 76.120.175.135 (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• !! Support as per WP:RECOGNIZABLE Red Slash 21:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose without further evidence. An important reference on the topic is A Dictionary of Hiberno-English and my OR says the term is common in Ireland. —  AjaxSmack  07:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose not recognizable. Irish English dialect would be better. The proposed name does not indicate if this is a linguistic article or citizenry or ethnic group. Would this be English people of Irish descent, Irish people of English descent, the Irish version of putting the "English" on it, the English version of making things "Irish", etc. -- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 04:18, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose It's not clear in what community the term Irish English may really be more common. In any case, there's minimal preference or prioritizing of terms expressed via a redirect, provided that the actual destination article lede includes a phrase like "also known as", "often called", or "sometimes referred to as", as is the case here. jxm (talk) 05:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Vowel charts

I think the phonology section needs vowel charts like those on Scottish English and Welsh English. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 20:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It's not as simple as saying that the page needs a diagram of vowel targets. We need sources for such things. Peter238 (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Infobox

Talk here about the infobox. Uamaol (talk) 05:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Reflection for emphasis

In the Reflection for emphasis section, the second part, beginning with 'This is not limited only to the verb to be' needs some work. Back in 2010, the version at [3] removed a chunk of material that this was referring to. I'm not sure if this part should also be removed, or if it is unique to Hiberno-English and just needs to be redone a little. 24.144.49.125 (talk) 02:20, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hiberno-English/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Just wanted to say that after spending a month in Dublin absorbing the sounds of "Hiberno-English" and reading a lot of contemporary Irish fiction, I found the article delightful and insightful reading. Thanks to the author from a non-specialist afficianado. 69.86.191.195 21:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC) John Epstein

Substituted at 20:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)