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Talk:Hiberno-English/Archive 3

< Talk:Hiberno-English
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Bastun in topic "Notable lifelong native speakers"
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Requested move 7 January 2016

Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as a purely procedural action. Requests to revert uncontroversial requests at RM/TR should be actioned except in exceptional circumstances (and this is not exceptional). Anyone preferring "Irish English" should feel free to start a new RM as soon as they want. The closing admin of the next discussion should consider "Hiberno‐English" to be the status quo ante title. Jenks24 (talk) 16:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Irish English → Hiberno‐English – Please get this dispute settled. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page move from Hiberno-English to Irish English

Latest comment: 8 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

This article was moved back on the 3rd of October, 2015 on the same day it was reuested (in fact within hours) and was suspiciously placed in the uncontroversial section, despite previous requests for the same thing showing the opposite.
The request can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Technical_requests&diff=next&oldid=683991510
As shown, there was no consensus sought as to why the action should have been taken apart from that of the requester, mainly due to the fact that there was no close to enough time for editors to find out about it, let alone respond but also because it was placed, I believe in the wrong category for requesting its moving. Is there anyone who would like to take this further?
Thanks. Uamaol (talk) 04:30, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, blatent abuse of the "uncontroversial" procedure, which happens far too often. It should never have been posted there. You could ask an admin to reverse, or set up a WP:RM. Personally I think I would support the move though. Has it been requested & rejected before? Johnbod (talk) 10:27, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, in 2014 - Talk:Irish_English/archive_2#requested_move. Johnbod (talk) 10:29, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
User:Anthony Appleyard did the move and will probably reverse it if you ask nicely. Johnbod (talk) 10:43, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Ah, thanks, Jenks24 - This discussion from 2006 is also relevant, if we proceed further. Johnbod (talk) 18:58, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 10 January 2016

Latest comment: 8 years ago23 comments11 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: WITHDRAWN. Wolfdog (talk) 13:41, 30 January 2016 (UTC)


Hiberno-English → Irish English – I'm deliberately now following controversial (rather than uncontroversial) procedure; I'm not sure if the last request's being "suspiciously placed" was my own fault or the moving admin's. I apologize if it was mine; in any case, we can now have a fuller discussion. Here was my original and still basic argument: "Irish English" is undeniably a more widely recognized and recognizable title. The linguistic giant regarding this topic, Irish scholar Raymond Hickey, states in the Introduction to his Irish English: History and Present-Day Forms that the term "Hiberno-English suffers from two drawbacks": namely, it is both too technical for laypersons (an appropriate argument too for a Wikipedia article) and carries with it certain "un-academic" or sentimental implications (p. 5). If anyone is interested in checking out his thoughts in full, I'm happy to send a copy of the complete work, which I own. Wolfdog (talk) 00:30, 10 January 2016 (UTC)--Relisted. Cúchullain t/c 17:43, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

NOTE: It was your fault - you put it in the "uncontroversial" section. You might claim inability to follow the voluminous instructions at WP:RM. Johnbod (talk) 18:20, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Here is the main quotation from Hickey: "Hiberno-English, suffers from two drawbacks. On the one hand, it is too technical: the use of the term demands that it be explained in studies intended for a general readership outside Ireland. On the other hand, the use of the term within Ireland may imply a somewhat popular, if not sentimental, attitude towards English in Ireland which is often not regarded as a topic worthy of academic research. In the present study, the simpler, more neutral label Irish English is used. There is no substantial objection to the term. It refers to varieties of English in Ireland (internal distinctions can be made additionally) and is parallel to labels like Canadian English or Australian English. Of recent date, many authors, such as [Jeffrey] Kallen (1997) and the present author, favour the term as do some non-Irish scholars such as [Sarah] Thomason and [Terrence] Kaufman (1988)."
Note that there was a previous discussion of the issue here. —  AjaxSmack  03:09, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Really, neither alternative does that. Johnbod (talk) 03:25, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. This Ngram shows "Irish English" is more common than "Hiberno-English" over the last 30 or so years. This is also borne out on Google Books search: 10,200 hits for "Irish English" dialect, vs. 5,540 hits for "Hiberno-English" dialect. All of this supports the Raymond Hickey quote above about recent scholars preferring "Irish English"; it appears that it is now the more common (and arguably clearer) of two well-established options.--Cúchullain t/c 17:41, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Your Ngram is inappropriate, as "Irish English" without "dialect" can refer to other things, like an Irishman in England, the Anglo-Irish, and so on. That's why I used "dialect" for both of them in the ngram above, which makes clear that "Hibero-English dialect" is preferred. RGloucester — ☎ 17:42, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
The Ngram is as useful as any (yours, for example, excludes the very many sources for the dialect that don't happen to use the phrase "Hiberno-English dialect" or "Irish English dialect", which is much less common than just "Hiberno-"/"Irish English"). However, the general Google Books results and Hickey's quote are the real kicker here. --Cúchullain t/c 18:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not sure linguistics is the right area for you frankly. Johnbod (talk) 03:09, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Not a helpful or collegial comment for a discussion. Wolfdog (talk) 19:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Support per Cuchullain. Mo ainm~Talk 01:19, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose I see no strong argument to change to Irish English. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:17, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose As a native speaker of Hiberno-English and a degreed Linguist, I oppose the moved because this IS the name of the dialect in most Academic writing and research. Also, the term Irish-English is often in common speech to simply refer people with a Bronx Irish Accent or a Southie Accent while ignoring the significant Grammar differences in Hiberno-English. The name change would be confusing and contrary to current academic precedent, in my experience. It may be changing , but not enough. Let there be a redirect to Hiberno-English from Irish-English. it would make it difficult to find older references and research about the earliest roots of dialect. I had to completely relearn English to "pass" as a "real' American sometime in early adolesence and yet, when tired, angry or amongst other native speakers of the dialect, we slip right back into it and are usually not understood by speakers of other dialects of English. if I had written this opnion in Hiberno-English, how many of you would have been able to follow? Native speakers know it as Hiberno-English just as we know that Hibernia is Latin for Ireland and that the Ancient Order of Hibernians plays the pipes at our Dah's funerals when they die in the line of duty. It is not an unusual term to those born into the dialect. The article should stay as is and be expanded.LiPollis (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
IE already redirects, of course. Re "if I had written this opnion in Hiberno-English, how many of you would have been able to follow?" - per the above, Lugnad yes, Wolfdog no. Re your edit summary, a "page move" is what we call an article rename here. Johnbod (talk) 01:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Lisapollison, do you have any quotes from linguists about the prevalence of the terms in the scholarship? That would be most useful here.--Cúchullain t/c 18:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Notable lifelong native speakers

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The 'Notable lifelong native speakers' includes two highly Americanised speakers - Rory and Liam. Inappropriate methinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eomurchadha (talk • contribs) 22:16, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

L2 speakers

From the infobox: "Native speakers c. 4.5 million (2011)[citation needed], 130,000 L2 speakers (native Irish speakers)." Wouldn't native Irish speakers also be likely to be native English speakers? See first language for an explanation of the linguistic usage of this term; it refers to languages acquired in childhood rather than limited to one language. Alázhlis 19:45, 1 January 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alázhlis (talk • contribs)

Inappropriate IPA reference

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The phoneme ɞ links to the Help:IPA page, but is not described there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.161.134.218 (talk) 18:32, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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New Dublin English

Latest comment: 6 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

This section, even if apparently referenced to a academic work by Hickey, reads like someone with a massive chip on their northside shoulder having a go at southsiders. Are broad generalisations such as 'rejected their Irishness' really appropriate in an encyclopaedia? My friends and family never rejected any Irishness, our language, English, and our accents were normal, unaffected.213.202.161.252 (talk) 06:31, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm glad you brought this to the talk page first. It actually says "rejected traditional notions of Irishness, regarding themselves as more trendy and sophisticated" and is talking about the D4 accent. Do you have any wordings/sources that can help "lessen the blow"? Wolfdog (talk) 12:51, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree, the whole section feels like it's very POV. "This "new mainstream" accent of Dublin's youth, rejecting traditional working-class Dublin, pronounces:" - How can a seires of natural sound changes in a specific sociolect imply "Dublin's youth" are "rejecting traditional working-class Dublin"? Can we at least change that to ""This "new mainstream" accent of Dublin's youth, in contrast to local Dublin English, pronounces:"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4D8:2:27:4D0F:13E8:8AA5:3EBC (talk) 16:28, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Vocal of "what"

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

@Nardog: Please note that Wolfdog inserted this part over five years ago, so you've got to take it up with him. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:46, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

That's not how it works. Restoring is akin to adding (see WP:BURDEN). Nardog (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 6 December 2020

Latest comment: 3 years ago24 comments12 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hiberno-English → Irish English – Clear common name, see below (t · c) buidhe 20:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

  • Per NGRAMS and Google Trends, the clear common name for this topic is "Irish English". It's not even close. (t · c) buidhe 20:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
    • A normal google search gives 183 unique hits for "hiberno-english" while "irish english" only comes to 171 unique hits. No so clear as you claim. The Banner talk 20:59, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
    • The Google trends seems to only pick up American hits. It's very doubtful that searches finding "Irish English" are all talking about language varieties, or the right ones. My 2nd hit on a google search is "This is a searchable electronic version of Ó Dónaill's Irish-English Dictionary which was first published in 1977" - "Irish" meaning Irish Gaelic. Johnbod (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
      You can change the locale as preferred. Here's the result of Ireland. I agree that it's possible that some "Irish English" searches may be referring to something besides the dialect of English, but when it's nearly 100% in favor of one option, even if you throw out half of the "Irish English" results, there is still overwhelming dominance of it—even in Ireland. (t · c) buidhe 15:36, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
      I think even throwing out only half is too little, if you look at the related searches, they are all phrased looking for translations or dictionary sites! Smirkybec (talk) 15:44, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Strong support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 00:13, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Strong support: This has been discussed numerous times, I believe most recently when I was, in fact, the nominator on 10 January 2016 (see that date in the discussion archive for this page). I withdrew the nomination for reasons I don't honestly recall, though it is worth noting there was plenty of opposition to the move at that time. Here's the strongest case I had then, which I still believe to be the strongest case today: "Irish English" is undeniably a more widely recognized and recognizable title. The linguistic giant regarding this topic, Irish [and Irish English] scholar Raymond Hickey, states in the Introduction to his Irish English: History and Present-Day Forms that the term "Hiberno-English suffers from two drawbacks": namely, it is both too technical for laypersons (an appropriate argument for a Wikipedia article) and carries with it certain "un-academic" or sentimental implications (p. 5). Certainly, no laypersons outside of Ireland would immediately understand the title (and I wonder how many inside), and no other English dialects on Wikipedia follow the odd prefix-hyphenated structure of "Hiberno-English". "Irish English", on the other hand, seems to me fairly transparent a name. Wolfdog (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
"Certainly, no laypersons outside of Ireland would immediately understand the title" - you should also exclude Britain (and very possibly Australia etc) from that sweeping generalization. As for Ireland, you can ask them yourself. Johnbod (talk) 16:26, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose: As per The Banner's point there is no clear dominance of "Irish English" as a preferred term. But speaking more specifically to the content covered in the article, the issue with "Irish English" is the misinterpretation that it refers to the effect of the Irish language on English spoken in Ireland, as opposed to the many and varying languages that have had an effect to make Hiberno-English. It seems to be an oversimplification with very little benefit. Smirkybec (talk) 11:51, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
As a side note, there is already enough international confusion about Irish being its own language rather than purely being the English spoken in Ireland. This will only add to that confusion. Smirkybec (talk) 13:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Your suggestion that "Irish English" could be misinterpreted as the effect of the Irish language on English spoken in Ireland 1) feels to me outlandish (almost like the exact opposite of wishful thinking) and 2) isn't even a problem, since Irish English would be the appropriate article to discuss Irish substrate effects on the English language in Ireland. So what's the actual problem here? As for "Irish English" not being dominant, well, on Google Scholar, "Irish English" articles far outnumber "Hiberno-English" articles. Plus, there's the appeal that the term is clear ("What kind of English are we talking about? Oh, Irish English.") and follows the established pattern of many, many other English dialect pages on Wikipedia that use "[Regional Adjective] English" (like Texan English, Scottish English, Indian English, etc.). Wolfdog (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
I have two issues with your invocation of academic discourse - 1) it is relying on one singular academic (Hickey), and 2) the search results on Google Scholar till use nothing about WHERE those academics and researchers are based - are they invoking "Irish English" as the descriptor from outside or within Ireland? And are they drawing that terminology from Hickey? Also, academic terminology shouldn't dictate what the article is called, especially when there is a perfectly serviceable redirect. There is enough US-centric dominance of Irish topics without adding this to the pile. From an academic standpoint, the Irish Elk article should be renamed the Giant Irish Deer, but the "common" usage of the name dominates. As a side bar, seeing as I had a chance, I ran a quick experiment on Twitter. Smirkybec (talk) 18:13, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
That survey is a very cool idea. Be sure to send us the results. (I'm amazed how many Irish respondents think Hiberno-English "just sounds better" or "sounds more formal"; interesting to hear that perspective. Also, several Irish people mention [as much as it baffles me] that the term "Irish English" indeed confuses them. Wow! I fully admit that I'm coming at this from a non-Irish outsider's perspective.) Side-note: one of your Twitter comments mentions that a lot of the research on this page comes from Raymond Hickey, with perhaps an implication that it's biased toward his publications. That may be the case (I certainly am partially responsible), but, in my defence, where's everyone else's research out there? I'd love to see/know about other scholars of this dialect, but I find that much of the modern research ties right back to Hickey. Anyone's help is much appreciated. Wolfdog (talk) 23:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
In general, it would appear that in linguistics it is indeed Irish English, but within Ireland and in relation to the study of literature it would be Hiberno-English. Within Ireland, the work of Diarmaid Ó Muirithe and Terence Dolan would be far more familiar (both published popular books, and were regular contributors to Irish newspapers) and I think their use of Hiberno-English to describe their work probably is a big factor in that terms more recent popularity/familiarity. I mentioned the use of Hickey to see what linguists thought (as that Twitter account would have a large following from that area) just to see if I could tease out whether that would be a potential bias, but it doesn't look like it. Smirkybec (talk) 23:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
So on that Twitter poll, out of 1,180 82.4% favour Hiberno-English. I think this speaks to Johnbod's point that those in Ireland and interested in the languages of Ireland would use Hiberno-Irish when talking about the form of English spoken in Ireland. Some have pointed out that these older more rural spoken forms are probably on the decline, although this seems to be disputed. I again will proffer that there is the redirect from Irish English for those coming from outside Ireland or from a linguistics background. While I will always be in favour of clarity and simplicity where it is of a net benefit, I feel that here it is a simplification purely for the sake of it, and will be at a loss for the community that is actually being represented here. Smirkybec (talk) 12:36, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mary Robinson/"Affluent"

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Can we change this description? Robinson does not come from an affluent family, nor is she especially wealthy now. Furthermore, she has spoken this way her entire life. She was educated at Trinity College Dublin, which may have affected her accent in the early years. Hanoi Road (talk) 14:28, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Hanoi Road (talk) 22:11, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Messages

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Messages for doing the shopping, is that exclusively Irish. It's used in Scotland too. And might come from the Dutch "boodschappen" (messages), which is used in the Netherlands as the word for doing the shopping. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.174.48.97 (talk) 21:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

"Notable lifelong native speakers"

Latest comment: 1 year ago13 comments8 people in discussion

Wolfdog reverted my removal of what I consider to be trivial and poorly verified. To take the last point first, proving that Christine Bleakley, Jamie Dornan, Rory McIlroy, and Liam Neeson are somehow "lifelong native speakers" is done by a link to a newspaper article, which states, in full, "The dulcet tones of Liam Neeson, Jamie Dornan, Christine Bleakley and Rory McIlroy helped ensure the accent came top of the popularity charts when it comes to 'sweet talk'." So that's a no-no already, and the sourcing for the others is no better. But Wolfdog claims that "It's a commonplace on multiple WP dialect pages"--even if that were true, that wouldn't make it right for this article; in addition, how is it true? In the move discussion, above, Wolfdog lists a few Englishes (Texan English, Scottish English, Indian English)--none of them have it. I'll list a couple that I know, none of which have it: West Frisian Dutch, Limburgish, Brabantian dialect, Gronings dialect, South Guelderish, West Flemish, Southern American English--and The Banner knows some of these too. In addition, other sections in this article (Dublin English, Standard (Southern) Irish English) don't have it either. Wolfdog, you may be attached to this content because you added it, so I'm sorry, but you didn't add it to other articles you edited: Jamaican English, Western New England English, Canadian English, New England English, and while that undermines your "commonplace" argument, it's a good thing that you didn't.

I'm not the first one to have problems with this content: Ceoil thought it was "silly" too, and you reverted him with a simple "reverting material removal". So I'm sorry, but the arguments you provided don't hold water, and the content should be removed. Drmies (talk) 14:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Johnbod (talk) 14:56, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
I am not an expert on this matter but I looked at this addition with alarm. The Banner talk 14:57, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
It's trivia, it's hard to nail down as it's highly subjective, and it's going to be a magnet for throwing in just about anyone from Ireland. I'm fine with its being gone - Alison ❤ 17:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Alison, it is always nice to see that little heart of yours pop up. Thank you for all you've done over the years to make this place better. Drmies (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks :) It's nice to pop in here as often as I can, though I'm less active these days. Trying to step up just a little bit of late! Lovely to see you here, too - Alison ❤ 23:13, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
I understand your objections. However, why are you oddly cherrypicking dialects I mentioned in an unrelated post above (what do Texan English, Scottish English, etc. have to do with this particular discussion?). Anyway, I'm quite sure I didn't start the trend, though I've certainly added/expanded such sections or speakers on various pages, true. What does that, or the fact that many (most) dialect pages "don't have it," have to do with its validity? The fact that certain notable people use certain accents can surely be useful for lay readers unacquainted with linguistics, so this is obviously well-intentioned. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "it's a good thing that you didn't" along with its subtly threatening tone, as if I'm editing pages in bad faith. What's that about? All you needed was to provide some logic for your point of view. If anything, the "poorly verified" argument and Alison's argument about the inherent subjectivity of choosing speakers make sense. I get that. Obviously if the consensus is against me then so be it, but I'd at least throw this out there: Can we think of any way to keep this section but with stronger sources (less vulnerable to subjective disagreements)? (And maybe the answer is honestly "no" and so be it.) Wolfdog (talk) 12:47, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Because those other dialects are not relevant for this discussion? The Banner talk 13:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Huh? Wolfdog (talk) 14:14, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
They are relevant, and both cockney and Received Pronunciation have it. We should have a Wikipedia-wide consensus to remove such sections from dialect pages. And please don't bring WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to this, I'm saying that we should decide what to do with such sections in all relevant articles, not that the section shouldn't be removed from here because other pages have it. We don't have to do both at once. Sol505000 (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
  • It reads to me that Drmies is making the point that your actions belie your arguments. Also, I suspect that Drmies would be far happier with examples that a qualified linguist had said were examples, rather than the unidentified "Staff Writer" at the Belfast Telegraph with unknown credentials in the field that you are presenting.

    Shane Walshe who wrote ISBN 9783631586822 has a doctorate in Linguistics, for example. Try reading what xe has to say, for starters. And then you can look to Angela McCarthy in ISBN 9781851829576 and elsewhere observing how Charlotte Godley is an example of how New Zealanders and Australians once commonly conflated Irish and Scots accents, quoting this letter. I suspect that you'll get a lot less resistance to genuine scholarship than to "Staff Writer" at the Belfast Telegraph and a poll run by a supermarket as a publicity stunt for Valentine's Day.

    As noted at User:Uncle G/Cargo cult encyclopaedia article writing good content keeps out the bad somewhat. This is currently the latter, though.

    Uncle G (talk) 09:41, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Great finds. Feel free to bolster the article with those better sources. No one here is thinking staff writers are the best we can do. That was my whole point! I'm glad to see there are strong sources out there -- thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the removal. Arbitrary and poorly sourced. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:18, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

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