Talk:Historic Hotels of America

NRHP listing status of these

In developing articles about a lot of these, I have been noting the fact of NRHP listing for some. I think, so far, that ones whose HHA pages state they are NRHP-listed have all borne out, i.e. I could verify that. And some/many HHA pages and hotels' own pages don't bother to mention NRHP listing, when in fact they are contributing buildings in NRHP-listed historic districts, where i have found that to be the case.

• But now I come across one at least where there is NRHP claim, in the hotel's own pages, which is not true. Talk:Kendall Hotel#NRHP listing? covers, and this discussion at wt:NRHP. So far it seems the NTHP/HHA itself is properly informed about such things.--Doncram (talk) 19:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: HHA's own webpages about the Kendall Hotel did not state it was NRHP-listed, but the hotel's own webpages do, still, now, in January 2023. HHA has now been informed of that. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• However, about Hotel Viking (Newport, Rhode Island), the HHA webpage about it claims that it is in the Bellevue Avenue Historic District, but that appears not to be true: Description of bounds of the district in its 1976 NRHP document explain it goes north along Bellevue Avenue only as far as Memorial Boulevard, which is still south of the hotel. I don't see a claim of historic district-ness in the hotel's own webpage however. --Doncram (talk) 02:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: After communications with the HHA in recent days, the HHA pages for Hotel Viking have been corrected to drop claims that the hotel is in the historic district. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Hotel Viking in R.I.

The dab page has a red link: Hotel Viking (Rhode Island). Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 20:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: The current page about the hotel is at Hotel Viking (Newport, Rhode Island), to which now Hotel Viking (Rhode Island) redirects. And it is included on disambiguation page Hotel Viking. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that helps. In other cases I have added items to dab pages or created dab pages as needed, but hadn't gotten to this one yet. It seems that the red link is now because there previously was a page, which was deleted by edit:

06:45, 3 September 2015 Jimfbleak talk contribs deleted page Hotel Viking (Rhode Island) (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion) (thank)

(Also by the way there previously was a "Viking Hotel", different but deleted similarly, which I have now redirected to the dab.)

Okay, re-using that name in this list-article, and re-starting an article. --Doncram (talk) 00:57, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, maybe you can get back anything useful that was in the old article. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:04, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't have access to the old version. Hmm, the HHA page about it states it is in the Bellevue Avenue Historic District, but that district is not well-documented and I can't verify if the hotel is there, much less useful detail, from the NRHP doc of 1976. --Doncram (talk) 01:45, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: After communications with HHA, the HHA pages about Hotel Viking have just been updated to remove (incorrect) claims that the hotel is in the Bellevue Avenue Historic District. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:50, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

You can ask administrators to give you a copy of a deleted page, but it was deleted because it was too much of an advertisement, so there might not be anything worthwhile there. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Moot now, article was created from scratch i guess. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

bits

Some bits (notes) to keep track of (strike out when fully addressed in the list-article):

California

• Fairmont Heritage Place, Ghirardelli Square (1893), San Francisco, California. Includes NRHP-listed clocktower. Shows as redlink Fairmont Heritage Place in Ghirardelli Square article.

Delaware

• "in Delaware's Brandywine Valley; the inn is, in reality, a restored 19th-century hamlet with 28 guest rooms spread across 11 carefully restored buildings accessible via a maze of ornate gardens."

Florida

• La Concha Hotel & Spa (1926), Key West, Florida. Try La Concha Hotel. Colonial - Colonial Revival.
• The Terrace Hotel (1924), Lakeland, Florida. Renaissance Revival.
• Casa Faena (1928), Miami Beach, Florida. Casa Claridge's Spanish Colonial Revival.
• Greystone Miami Beach (1939), Miami Beach, Florida. Art Deco.
• The National Hotel (1940), Miami Beach, Florida.

Indiana

• • French Lick Springs Hotel (), French Lick, Indiana. Was built as French Lick Resort Casino? Beaux Arts

Louisiana

• Omni Royal Orleans (1843), New Orleans, Louisiana, previously The City Exchange, St. Louis Hotel or St. Louis Exchange (redirects done, do alternate names show in bold in article?)

Maine

• The Colony Hotel (1914), Kennebunkport, Maine, included as "The Colony" in Cape Arundel Summer Colony Historic District per NRHP doc
• Portland Regency Hotel & Spa (1895), Portland, Maine, in the heart of the "Old Port District".

Maryland

• Historic Inns of Annapolis (1727), Annapolis, Maryland. Colonial Revival. Any component specifically NRHP-listed?

Massachusetts

• Founding: Fairmont Copley Plaza (1912), Boston, Massachusetts. Named for John Singleton Copley (1738-1774). The hotel's architect: Henry Janeway Hardenbergh. Renaissance Revival.
• Hilton Boston Downtown/Faneuil Hall (1928), Boston, Massachusetts. Try Hilton Boston, Hilton Boston Downtown, Hilton Boston Downtown Faneuil Hall. Art Deco.
• Harbor View Hotel of Martha's Vineyard (1891), Edgartown, Massachusetts. Shingle Style. (doncram: the only Shingle Style one of all HHAs?)
• Crowne Pointe Historic Inn (1900), Provincetown, Massachusetts. Also Crowne Pointe Historic Inn & Spa. Victorian.
• Publick House Historic Inn (1771), Sturbridge, Massachusetts. Try Publick House

New Hampshire

• Eagle Mountain House (), Jackson, New Hampshire. Also Eagle Mountain House & Golf Club. Colonial Revival.

New York

• The Otesaga Hotel and Cooper Inn (), Cooperstown, New York. Try Otesaga Hotel and Cooper Inn. Colonial Revival.
• Hotel Skyler Syracuse, Tapestry Collection by Hilton (1921), Syracuse, New York. Georgian Revival.
• Marriott Syracuse Downtown (1924), Syracuse, New York. Originally opened in 1924 as Hotel Syracuse . Renaissance Revival.
• 21c Museum Hotel Durham by MGallery (1937), Durham, North Carolina. Art Deco. Try Hotel Durham, Durham Hotel. Was Durham Bank & Trust Company

Pennsylvania

• Ledges Hotel (1890), Hawley, Pennsylvania. Federal.
• Silver Birches (hotel) (1929), Hawley, Pennsylvania. Includes Colonial Revival architecture.
• The Settlers Inn at Bingham Park (1927), Hawley, Pennsylvania. Tudor Revival.
• The Inn at Leola Village, Est. 1867 (1867), Leola, Pennsylvania. Period Houses and Residences.
• Distrikt Hotel Pittsburgh, Curio Collection by Hilton (1924), Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Listed on the National Register of Historic Places
• Omni William Penn Hotel, Pittsburgh (1916), Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Try William Penn Hotel. Classic Revival.
• Hotel Warner (1930), West Chester, Pennsylvania. Converted into a hotel in 2012.

Tennessee

• General Morgan Inn & Conference Center (1884), Greeneville, Tennessee, aka The General Morgan Inn and Conference Center. Where John Hunt Morgan was shot and fell. Per NRHP doc, General Morgan Inn was the Hotel Brumley, originally Grand Hotel. Included in Greeneville Historic District (Greeneville, Tennessee).
• 21c Museum Hotel Nashville by MGallery (1900), Nashville, Tennessee. In downtown Nashville, in the historic Gray & Dudley Building. in NRHP doc of NRHP-listed Second Avenue Commercial District (currently a redlink)
• Union Station Hotel Nashville, Autograph Collection, Nashville, Tennessee. Try Union Station Hotel Nashville. It must be Union Station (Nashville), a former National Historic Landmark.
• The Hermitage Hotel, Nashville, Tennessee.

Vermont

• Castle Hill Resort and Spa (), Cavendish, Vermont. Try Castle Hill Resort, Castle Hill. Period Houses and Residences.
• The Middlebury Inn (1827?), Middlebury, Vermont. Federal.
• Basin Harbor (), Vergennes, Vermont. Eclectic.
• Woodstock Inn & Resort (), Woodstock, Vermont. Try Woodstock Inn.

Virginia

• The Virginian Lynchburg, Curio Collection by Hilton (1913), Lynchburg, Virginia. Try The Virginian Lynchburg, Virginian Lynchburg.
• Inn at Willow Grove (1778), Orange, Virginia. Willow Grove Inn.
• Airlie (1899), Warrenton, Virginia. In village of Airlie, Virginia

Washington

• Mayflower Park Hotel (1927), Seattle, Washington. Not found by searching Washington, but in map.
• Fairmont Olympic Hotel (1924), Seattle, Washington. Originally the Olympic Hotel. Not found by searching "Washington", but in map.
• Former one: Montvale Hotel, Spokane, Washington, added by this diff, no other info.

Washington, D.C.

• The Churchill (1906). Or The Churchill Hotel? try Churchill Hotel. Beaux Arts architecture, originally a luxury apartment building
• The Fairfax at Embassy Row (1927), Washington, District of Columbia. Originally "The Fairfax Hotel" or "Fairfax Hotel"?
• The Graham Georgetown, Tapestry Collection by Hilton (1962), Washington, District of Columbia. try The Graham Georgetown, Graham Hotel, The Graham. Formerly Hotel Monticello. Try Monticello Hotel.
• The Henley Park Hotel (1918), Washington, District of Columbia. Is it named after Henley Park in Oxfordshire?

References

Photos

I think that rather have a long string of photos of the hotels on the right, make a gallery of photos for each state (that has more than one), or (if there is only one) put it in that state's section. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Current and former hotels and sourcing

I reverted these changes done by newly-registered editor Liviekitty33 as this is a list of current and former HHA members, while they deleted many. New ones can be added, with sourcing, and old ones can be updated to indicate they are no longer current HHA members, however. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 17:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Certainly restoring/adding new members should be done, and I was starting to revisit Liviekitty33's edits to do so, when Wikipedia editing went down, an hour ago or so. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 19:31, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

In these edits just now, addressing Alabama thrpugh California only so far, I added indications of which hotels are no longer HHA members as of December 2022, per Liviekitty33's having checked at the HHA website, and I also added back the new members Liviekitty33 had added, with indication that they are recent members as of December 2022. The indications are by use of two new footnotes named "no2022-12" and "new2022-12". The information could be indicated in some other way, perhaps by color-coding of rows, but this is what I came up with for the moment. Hopefully User:Liviekitty33 and perhaps others will join discussion here about how to handle this info. A different potential treatment would be to completely delete all mention of former HHA members (I don't happen to think that is a good idea, but it could be proposed). --Doncram (talk,contribs) 19:57, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the solution above to merely list all former members as that--former members. My concern was that the presentation may confuse any new people pursuing this subject when I made my earlier updates. But if the convention is to do the above, then I certainly concur. Perhaps a table of some kind similarly used for NRHP listings by county/city on Wikipedia could also help with the interpretation of membership. Liviekitty33 (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds like a good idea. Perhaps in each state section there could be a table of current members and a table of former members. Or just one table but with color-coding indicating current vs. former.

I wouldn't characterize former members as "merely" former members. It is my sense that listing of a hotel in the National Trust for Historic Preservation's program is a significant indicator of a place's importance. This is why I was interested in developing this system originally. As is listing of NRHP places in the National Park Service's program, although the NRHP program does have better documentation which continues to be available. Once historic and notable, always historic and notable, IMHO.

I created Category:Former member hotels of Historic Hotels of America, a subcategory of Category:Historic Hotels of America, and applied that into the article Admiral Hotel (Mobile, Alabama), one of the 32 charter HHA hotels. Note I restored text and sourcing in the Admiral Hotel article about it being part of the HHA program, which is significant information. And I added new statement that it is no longer listed in HHA members, with December 2022 sourcing. However, I was a bit shocked to see that some footnoting to HHA sources had been deleted, leaving statements in the article unsupported. Of course any source used should continue to be cited, we don't disallow an HHA source just because a given hotel is no longer an HHA member! User:Liviekitty33, do you not agree? And I wonder if you can be of assistance in reworking the recent edits to HHA articles? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 22:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Doncram, you still seem to be unwilling to admit that HHA is nothing more than a marketing association. No doubt it involves payments for listings; and if a hotel no longer sees any advantage in being a "member", it will no longer pay and thus be delisted. Deor (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Righto, User:Deor, I am indeed unwilling to term this merely a marketing association. The fact is that membership in HHA is indeed a valid signal of significance, in fact of Wikipedia-significance, as is borne out by all the individual hotels gradually getting articles as I figure out which ones are in historic districts and/or however else they are documented. I was right, others (perhaps including yourself) were wrong back in evil-type ANI proceeding which tarred me. I correctly was estimating that HHA membership implied significance. I would have been happy to agree that the HHA pages themselves come across as promotional so they don't seem like most other valid sourcing in Wikipedia, but I absolutely not wrong in the judgment I had. And I gather you are happily monitoring me, like you mention skeptically above that u are going to watchlist the two drafts you restored for me (thanks again). But I perceive you are monitoring me perhaps partly hoping find fault and make more trouble for me, out of i don't know what misguided purpose. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 05:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Consider this: do you seriously think that the National Trust for Historic Preservation, a seriously legitimate major organization with a responsible board etc., is going to blithely accept a modest fee and go out on a limb to deem a hotel historic, when the hotel is not, or when some it may actually be an old hotel but one which has not retained historic integrity? And/or, do you seriously think that hotel owners/managers would sign up for a shoddy program asserting historic nature of their hotels, just to attract visitors who would be disappointed? There are self-correcting processes in play. Not the same, but similar to self-correcting processes of places being listed and sometimes later delisted on the National Register of Historic Places and other governmental historic registries. ANI participants simply did not understand how things work, there was a stupid rush to stupid judgment, IMHO. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 05:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Liviekitty33, maybe you've seen in your watchlist that I have been stepping through your own contribution history (i am up to your edit of 16:15, 14 December 2022 m on Riggs National Bank, Washington Loan and Trust Company Branch with edit summary ‎"Cited hotel's induction into Historic Hotels of America" so far). In these edits, I trust you don't mind, I am adding HHA category, and changing your characterization of HHA as "the official program" of the National Trust into "an official program" (it is in fact a tiny component of the National Trust's work (it has $86 million revenues!)), and using an internal wikilink to HHA article rather than an external link, and perhaps a few other similar changes. Please do comment if these are fully okay by you or if you prefer some other tweaking.

I do mainly want to say that I very much appreciate your having updated this main HHA article and linked to all the new HHA listings, and more. I myself wasn't recently willing to do all that work ... in my HHA-related editing time I was still working at addressing draft articles about HHA places listed by something like 2019. Thank you for you attention to this.

Also, do you want to work on any of the drafted-and-not-in-mainspace articles (see list linked from a section above), or further develop any existing ones, or create new ones? Let me know and I would be happy to work together with you. cheers, --Doncram (talk,contribs) 02:13, 22 December 2022 (UTC)