Talk:Holly Williams (musician)

Article needs to be renamed

The article needs to be renamed from "Holly Williams" to "Holly Williams (American singer and songwriter)". This is because there are two other "Holly Williams" Wikipedia articles about different people. **This is causing Google search to give confusing results.

This can be done by using the "Move" option, and changing the article name there.

This will allow the article to show up in less confusing search results in Google and other search engines. [REDACTED - Oshwah] 15:17, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Done. There are actually three other notable people named “Holly Williams”. Corrected to disambiguate confusion inside and outside of Wikipedia.

Changed to “Holly Williams (American singer-songwriter)”

Chesapeake77 (talk) 09:12, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Responding to your own IP? Do better. Nothing suspicious about a [REDACTED - Oshwah] address being responded to by a user named after a [REDACTED - Oshwah]. But both have similar grammar issues. That is suspicious.

Pogo Greek (talk) 03:20, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Withdrawn by proposer, as the opposition is unanimous for the first two requests which I've already withdrawn, with no attention being garnered by the third request, which hasn't yet been withdrawn. Will create a new RM for the same. Regards, (closed by non-admin page mover) ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 19:01, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

---

• Holly Williams (Australian journalist) → Holly Williams (journalist)
• Holly Williams (British writer) → Holly Williams (writer)
• Holly Williams (American singer-songwriter) → ?

– Neither of them appears to be a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Holly Williams. However, current titles have unnecessary disambiguation, as all three have different professions and are independently disambiguated without their nationality per WP:NCPDAB. The title Holly Williams (American singer-songwriter) shouldn't be simply moved to Holly Williams (singer-songwriter) as WP:NCPDAB discourages hyphens in the title & encourages the use of a single recognisable term as qualifier. Possible titles include Holly Williams (singer) or Holly Williams (musician). Page view analysis for past 12 months for those interested are here. All 3 articles have been the most viewed at some point in this time period. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 20:00, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Holly Williams (British writer) seems to be also mostly a journalist; I don't see she's written for anything other than news sources. --GRuban (talk) 20:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:NCPDAB says For example, "Engelbert Humperdinck (musician)" could still refer to two different people, so Engelbert Humperdinck (composer) and Engelbert Humperdinck (singer) are used. So, I think we can differentiate accordingly here. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 21:19, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

What specifically would you recommend, then? The example seems to discourage (journalist) because it could refer to either Holly Williams. As, for that matter, could (writer). I agree if we can shorten the words in parentheses without causing ambiguity we should, but how? --GRuban (talk) 23:23, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• Weak oppose they both appear to be journalists and writers. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:52, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

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• Note: Alright, it appears that I misinterpreted some parts of the guideline, per GRuban above. And thus, I'm withdrawing the first two move requests. However, the third request remains. Pinging @GRuban and Crouch, Swale:. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 11:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

  I have no opinion on the 3rd move so if you want to withdraw this completely I'm fine with that, my opposition was for the 1st 2. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. There are TWO JOURNALISTS that go by the name "Holly Williams", the other one is British. The other does not yet have a Wikipedia article but she likely will. The whole premise of these requested changes is also overly fastidious and insignificant in its proportion. Please stop wasting people's valuable time with trivial concerns. Chesapeake77 (talk) 12:59, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Chesapeake77: I did say that withdrew the proposal to retitle the articles about the two journalists above. And now this proposal is only about retitling the singer's article as it is a pretty clear violation of WP:NCPDAB. I'm sorry if I couldn't make my proposals (current & withdrawn) clear. Regards, ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 18:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 14 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 06:51, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

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Holly Williams (American singer-songwriter) → ? – Per WP:NCPDAB which discourages hyphens in the title & encourages the use of a single recognisable term as qualifier. Possible titles include Holly Williams (singer) or Holly Williams (musician). ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 19:08, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

• Move to Holly Williams (musician) per WP:SINGERDAB. 162 etc. (talk) 20:04, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
• Move back to Holly Williams, though it is likely that she is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and therefore should be moved back to Holly Williams, especially since the original mover didn't follow process. Skyerise (talk) 02:57, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
• Move to Holly Williams (Singer songwriter) (Leaving out "American"). "Musician" is far too vague and I predict the that Google searches will ONLY be for "Holly Williams" and "singer" or "songwriter" and the article will not be found If it is only vaguely tagged with "musician".

I would also like to respectfully point out that just because something has a "WP" in front of it does not always mean that it is a good idea. I ask everyone to think for themselves-- who searches for "musician" on Google when they are looking for a "Singer" or "songwriter"?? Nobody. Chesapeake77 (talk) 08:02, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Chesapeake, redirects are indexed by search engines and would lead to this article, if those redirects exist. There should obviously be redirects from plausible search terms. Personally, I believe, that existing guidelines need not be compromised for external search engine reasons, especially when readers would reach the correct destination by a single click. However, if consensus is to change the guidelines, I'm open to it too. Afterall, consensus does evolve over time. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 09:05, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@Chesapeake77: 1) Singer-songwriter is inaccurate. It would only be appropriate if she didn't play any instruments, but she does. 2) We don't care what Google does. Our disambiguation system is designed for Wikipedia's search engine, not for Google. 3) Dabs should be as short as possible; they should not be artificially lengthened to produce certain interaction effects with Google. [For example, (journalist) and (writer) are distinct, therefore they do not need and should not have the nationality added; we would only do that if we wanted both to be 'journalist', eg. (Australian journalist) and (British journalist). However one is actually a reporter, and the other is a critic and columnist. I have moved those to the minimal disambiguating titles; sorry if you don't like it, open move requests if you think they should be moved.] 4) Redirects should be added at CX Zoom suggests. I really believe the article should be moved back to Holly Williams - she is part of the Williams family and unless you can prove otherwise, and the burden is on you as the original mover, most likely the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Therefore I am changing my !Vote. You should have started a move request, not just moved the article without discussion. Skyerise (talk)

Here's the primary topic data:

"Holly Williams" American = 404,000

"Holly Williams" singer = 277,000

"Holly Williams" Australian = 398,000

"Holly Williams" correspondent = 129,000

"Holly Williams" "Australian journalist" = 925

"Holly Williams" critic = 9,230

"Holly Williams" "British writer" = 1,860

"Holly Williams" "British journalist" = 456

Skyerise (talk) 13:21, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support move to "musician". --Spekkios (talk) 22:30, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support - Support move to either Holly Williams (musician) or Holly Williams. --Jax 0677 (talk) 11:18, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.