Talk:Hollywood Canteen

Fair use rationale for Image:HollywoodCanteenprogram.gif

Image:HollywoodCanteenprogram.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:HollywoodCanteenposter.jpg

Image:HollywoodCanteenposter.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bette Davis and John Garfield - Co-founders?

Currently, there is a debate regarding the topic of Davis and Garfield being the alleged "co-founders" of the Canteen. However, I have found this to be a modern-day internet myth. It seems this myth may have came directly from Davis herself during her later years when she was prone to exaggerations. In researching articles on the Canteen from 1942-1943, I have discovered the Canteen was founded and established by a committee (the Hollywood Victory Committee to be exact). Davis was a member of the committee, however, she was, by no means the only member, and according to a September 27, 1942 newspaper article, the Victory Committed was head by actress Irene Dunne. It is verified that Davis served as the Canteen's honorary president after it opened, however, it was a committee effort to found and establish the Canteen. It was not established merely by Davis and Garfield. To say that it was is inaccurate and grossly misleading to the historical accuracy and integrity of this article.

Source for the Hollywood Victory Committee being the committee who established the Canteen: [1]https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/newspapers/image/v2%3A14CF7881E9584F83%40GB3NEWS-16D9E1751F1DD194%402430630-16D39CB12DF94F01%4030-16D39CB12DF94F01%40?h=14&fname=joan&lname=crawford&fullname=&exsrch=1&kwinc=%22hollywood%20canteen%22&kwexc=bette&show_kwexc=1&sort=old&rgfromDate=1942&rgtoDate=1944&formDate=&formDateFlex=exact&dateType=range&processingtime=&addedFrom=&addedTo=&sid=qwohmeirtcntpmhcojogzqrxuipmsehi_wma-gateway012_1691352706912 MonicaAng (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Reopening this discussion from August - on 10/29/23 I added over 10 additional members of the Hollywood Victory Committee who formed the Hollywood Canteen to this article, WITH SOURCES for each addition, and that was completely (wrongly) removed. These are CITED sources from newspapers such at the Chicago Sun, The San Antonio Light and others. Bette Davis and John Garfield were NOT the "founders" of the Hollywood Canteen. It was formed by an entire committee effort as proven in the 1942 - 1943 newspaper articles I posted as sources. MonicaAng (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Cannot read your sources. They just lead to "GenealogyBank.com". --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 19:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

It leads to GenealogyBank's newspaper section (like MANY citations on Wikipedia do). ALL of my sources come from legitimate 1942-1943 newspapers. MonicaAng (talk) 19:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Nope. They all lead to a requirement to login with name, e-mail, and password. Then it demands you enter a credit card information for 7-day free trial before accessing the website. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 19:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Ironically, the Wikipedia article on the Hollywood Victory Committee cite many of the SAME people I cited in my addition. That article has many sources on it, too. Proof enough? MonicaAng (talk) 19:43, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

If you don't have the ability to pay to read the news articles, that's unfortunate, but I do not consider that a valid reason to stifle that very relevant (and legitimate) information from this article. Especially considering Wikipedia is crammed full of citations from newspaper websites that have a pay wall. MonicaAng (talk) 19:45, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

It's suspicious that these alleged sources happen to be the only ones that exist which refute the otherwise well-founded knowledge that Bette Davis and John Garfield were the co-founders; Davis was president throughout the ENTIRE war as of its establishment in 1942; and Davis used her clout to help the place become integrated. All of these facts, by every source thus far, are in sync with on another, out on the open web. If these are indeed untrue an inaccurate, well then let's actually see the proof that they aren't. Otherwise, it's unreliable information if everything else contradicts it. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 19:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Additional vintage (non-modern-day unsourced-blog) info on the Hollywood Victory Committee and all they did (from NON-pay wall website): https://archive.org/details/Screenland-1944-03-Vol-48-No-5/page/n23/mode/2up?q=%22hollywood+victory+committee%22+canteen MonicaAng (talk) 20:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

No, Canteen isn't mentioned anywhere in that article. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 19:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Actually, it's a known fact that the Canteen was formed by the Hollywood Victory Committee by anyone who is a researcher of classic Hollywood, even the Hollywood Canteen Wikipedia article itself stated it was formed by the Hollywood Victory Committee prior to my addition. If you are choosing to ignore these facts, it is not I who has the "narrative" here. It is not a "well-known fact" that Davis and Garfield were the "founders." That has become a repeated modern day LIE on the internet over the past few years. Your statement of "Davis used her clout to help the place become integrated" is also false. Davis is NOT who decided that the Canteen would be integrated - it was the Hollywood Victory Committee. This very issue was also covered on a discussion on this topic months ago, with links to 1942 articles proving this information. You are citing modern day internet blogs (that never have any sources to support their information) - whereas, I have cited (sourced) vintage news articles from the actual time period of 1942-1943. Which do you think is accurate? Again, if you, personally, do not have the ability to read these legitimate newspaper articles from 1942-1943, that is not a valid reason to stifle this information from the article. I again echo my statement that Wikipedia articles are stuffed full of news articles that are sourced from websites with pay walls. Perhaps you can ask a friend to lend you a credit card so that you can read them. MonicaAng (talk) 20:06, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Hollywood Canteen is NOT the same as the Hollywood Victory Committee.

@MonicaAng I was able to get a free trial of GenealogyBank! Unfortunately, every single one of your articles, save one, are problematic. Here's why.

Not one of these articles, except the Irene Dunne citation, use the term "Hollywood Canteen". The term "Canteen": not the actual location, nor the function, no correlation whatsoever is mentioned in any single one of these other articles. The Hollywood Victory Committee and their separate activities of making appearances on radio shows for war bonds and blah blah, have nothing to do with the Canteen. The Canteen was not mentioned by one of those journalists, the founding of it, the existence of it, nor these particular stars' direct participation in any way, shape, or form. No contribution whatsoever. These sources are junk and do not validate your claims.

This is an outline of each of these "founders"—who had absolutely no part in the initial creation of Hollywood Canteen.*

*(This is the fundamental issue at hand. They did not form the concept to start one. They were not ever credited, by initial 1942 sources, for having been part of founding, organizing, spearheading, or planning. They did no laying of the groundwork. They did not make the phone calls. They did no lobbying. They did none of the hardwork. Whenever they came on board to donate their time, that's great, as volunteers. But one does not simply get listed as establishing something for helping out eventually. Otherwise, the 57th investor of Amazon would be a name today.)

However, I have taken the liberty of including both clippings and full snapshots of the articles (uploaded to my Imgur for posterity's sake, for those who cannot or do not want to register for a free trial/subscription to NewsBank/GenealogyBank), since GenealogyBank's archival software enables that:

• Edward Arnold (02/24/1942) ~ Chicago Sun Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • Said that he stopped in Chicago Monday to visit Gary's steel mills for the HVC--article dated a half-year before Canteen even came to fruition
• James Cagney (09/02/1942) ~ Chicago Sun Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • Executive member; went to Chicago, sold over $1-million war bonds and stamps at time of article, due to sell up to $57 million plus more. This concerns war efforts, not Canteen venue.
• Clark Gable (01/13/1942) ~ San Antonio Light Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • Article says HVC "organized to co-ordinate free entertainment for patriotic humanitarian..." & Gable "first chairman" who dispatched Lombard to Indiana war rally--no mention of Canteen back in LA, because it didn't yet exist; irrelevant source
• Carole Lombard (01/13/1942) ~ The Providence Journal Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • Article titled "Carole Lombard to Give First Public Address for Defense Bonds" is an inappropriate citation to post for the sentence about founding the Canteen, as it is completely irrelevant.
• Hattie McDaniel (06/13/1942) ~ Michigan Chronicle Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • Says she's a recently elected member of Hollywood Victory Committee
• Merle Oberon (01/23/1942) ~ New Orleans States Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • All hers basically says is that she's a member and members make personal appearances, like the one she did in this story; Canteen not yet founded
• Don Wilson (05/16/1943) ~ The San Diego Union Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • (Which one, by the way? You don't specify. Don Wilson (announcer)? That guy?)
    • All his says is HVC arranges for personal appearances of entertainment personalities
• Loretta Young (07/05/1942) ~ Tulsa World Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL
  • Just mentions her being a member of the committee, and her praising the locals.

Irene Dunne's article (09/27/1942 Chicago Sun) qualifies her inclusion for presiding over a luncheon: soliciting donations of various supplies from Los Angeles merchants. That's it. It does not mention her being a founder. Clipping // Full Page // Monica's URL

Also worth noting: Later realized that that occurred while Davis was hospitalized for exhaustion, the week prior to the grand opening. However, that's speculation and I am not including that in the article. I did include Dunne and the luncheon in the article, with the source, for what it is: presiding over a luncheon for the canteen. Has nothing to do with being a founder. The article did not state such a thing.

***There was one earlier article, in which the term was applied to "Bundles for Bluejackets" at the Fort MacArthur canteen, where Pickford and Colbert, among others, were doing service. Just mentioning that for clarity. I'm sure you've seen it.

That aside, back on topic. Through my own historical research on GenealogyBank's newspapers, the very earliest search of the term Hollywood Canteen*** leads me to 1942 articles in which, guess who, the first 2 names are Bette Davis and John Garfield. The very first article comes from Bay City. Most subsequent articles leading up to the official October 3, 1942 opening, that do mention any names in connection, mention Davis, which I shall source. A few exclude names. Several mention The Talk of the Town (1942)--the premiere of which raised benefits. I'll cite that too. But just any and all predominantly mention Davis and the Canteen together. I have also search combined "Canteen" AND "HVC" (the full words), and received very few results. Or rather, I get papers, but the terms will be in 2 separate articles. Again: disconnected situations.

I'll note a couple of articles (often reprints, like so many of these results) that do mention Davis as also being a member of HVC, of which is arbitrary. The same article attributes her as having almost singlehandedly having done all the Canteen legwork. While Victory Committee members came to act as either dancers, waiters, dishwashers, etc., they were not involved with the founding of the Canteen, which is the primary debate here. As in the articles you cited, they were off engaging in a variety of other tours, mostly war bond rallies. Those same people did work at the Canteen, but they have not been cited in ANY article yet by name associated in this exhaustive newspaper search of the term "Hollywood Canteen" throughout "1942-1945", and I am already into 1944, nearing 1945. It's Davis/Garfield.

The evidence has already led me to 3 articles verifying that Bette Davis was elected by a select board of governors for a third term as president. (In the past, you have stated she was president only briefly; she was an honorary president; and various other forms of misinformation.) A board of governors, mind you, that do not include any of the names she has attempted to add to this article as having been a part of the formation and founding of the Canteen. The names are all different, with the exception of the original 2 names: Davis and once again her co-founder, John Garfield. Jules Stein received very few notices, but I do include them.

I have revamped the article, with fully and exhaustively researched sourcing, primarily done through the aid of GenealogyBank's database. There may still be areas to be tweaked. The list is dynamic, as I tagged with a hatnote. But...it is 100% better from the horribly unsourced and/or mis-sourced fiction from before.

As you can read in the thread above this dossier, her own diatribe declared that her sources were superior for being from the era. Well, this article is now predominantly sourced from the era. And it substantiates from an endless supply of sources that Davis and Garfield decided to replicate the NYC canteen. They laid out plans, pulled in people, formed committees, and it expanded from there, once the 42 unions were involved. HVC members joined in to gather more and more stars to get involved, and ka-boom. All of that. But at the core? It still took Bette Davis and John Garfield to light the wick that set it all in motion. That is vital information, which belongs in this and all related articles in which explanation of its foundation is pertinent.

P.S. For each of my GenealogyBank sources, I did save the clippings and full pages. I am uploading them on Imgur as well, so that those who wish to verify the legitimacy of the current sources. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 21:24, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

...Er, can do so! Pardon that fragment above.

In chronological order from the reference list:

(#03): Clipping // Full Page

(#04): Clipping // Full Page

(#05): Clipping // Full Page

(#06): Centerfold Spread A; // Centerfold Spread B;

(#07): Clipping // Full Page

(#08): Clipping // Full Page

(#10): Clipping // Full Page

(#11): Clip 1 \\ Clip 2 // Full Page

(#13): Clipping // Full Page

(#14): Clipping // Full Page

(#15): Clip 1 \\ Clip 2 // Full Page

(#16): Clipping // Full Page

(#18): Clipping // Full Page

(#19): Clipping // Full Page

(#20): Clipping // Full Page

(#21): Clipping // Full Page

(#22): Half Page

(#23): Clipping // Full Page

(#24): Clipping // Full Page

(#25): Clipping // Full Page

(#26): Clipping // Full Page (Same as before with luncheon)

(#27): Clipping // Full Page

(#28): Half Page

(#29): Photo #1; \\ Photo #2; // Collage \\ Full Page

(#31): Clipping // Full Page

(#33): Clipping // Full Page

(#34): Clipping // Full Page

(#35): Clipping // Full Page

(#36): Clipping // Full Page

(#38): Clipping // Full Page

(#39): Clipping // Full Page

(#40): Clipping // Full Page

(#41): Clipping // Full Page

(#42): Clipping // Full Page

(#43): Clipping // Full Page

(#45): Clipping // Full Page

(#46): Clipping // Full Page

It's excessive scrapbooking! Didn't need both clippings and full pages for most of them, but I just wanted to be absolutely thorough ahead of time. Same with the references w/ quotes. I'm all for removing the quotes within the citations at the bottom. I kept them in there while composing the page to keep track of which one is which and the content within them. Otherwise, I'd be mixing up one genealogybank.com link with another. Anywho. Hope these screenshots, while not the actual sources (the proper genealogybank.com links are in the refs), can illuminate and confirm the facts, thereby putting to rest any lingering doubts/skepticism. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 07:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Updated citations' sequential rearrangements.--Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 19:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Except you are missing ONE very large piece - the Canteen was STARTED by the Hollywood Victory Committee itself. It was THAT committee who FORMED the Canteen. That is covered in articles that I cited. MonicaAng (talk) 17:36, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. As I pointed out in the screenshots of the articles you cited, not a single article mentioned the foundation of the Canteen by the Hollywood Victory Committee. Every single one of your articles are fictitious, improper sourcing. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 17:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

"Every single one of your articles are fictitious, improper sourcing" Huh? The articles are fictitious? Now I am fabricating articles on a newspaper archive's website? I linked an article regarding this, which confirmed the Canteen WAS started by the Hollywood Victory Committee. MonicaAng (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

You need to read more carefully. It's "fictitious, improper sourcing". In other words, when you named Clark Gable, Carole Lombard, Merle Oberon as founders....You cannot use their names as founders, because their articles did not mention them founding the canteen. The Hollywood Canteen didn't even exist yet, because the Stage Door Canteen wasn't even open yet! And Carole was dead by the time Hollywood opened. Similar issues with Edward and the rest of them. James Cagney was on a war bond drive, not a Hollywood Canteen foundation parade in Chicago. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 19:34, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I never stated that Clark Gable, Carole Lombard, Merle Oberon, etc were FOUNDERS of the Canteen. I stated they were members of the Hollywood Victory Committee (who DID found the Canteen). Davis/Garfield and all of them were on that committee and being that they were all on the same committee who founded the Canteen, all of their names should be cited. Why should ONLY Davis and Garfield's names be cited when the committee was composed of at least a dozen people? "The Hollywood Canteen didn't even exist yet, because the Stage Door Canteen wasn't even open yet!" - NOT TRUE. The Stage Door Canteen opened in March 1942 - the Hollywood Canteen opened in October 1942. "Similar issues with Edward and the rest of them. James Cagney was on a war bond drive, not a Hollywood Canteen foundation parade" - AND Davis was FILMING at the time...AND, therein lies WHY it was a COMMITTEE effort - and NOT the effort of ONE or two people, as you have alleged. MonicaAng (talk) 19:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I forgot about this comment. Again though, the Clark/Carole/Merle articles were published in January of 1942. That's when I am saying that neither Canteen had been opened yet. Just wanted to clear that up. As of January for those 3 articles.

We'll have to check the production dates for her films, but I haven't seen any evidence that she was busy filming from August thru October of 1942. Even so, yes, by that time, the Canteen Committee was underway, but that doesn't change the fact that it started with Davis and Garfield.

Every idea/creation starts somewhere, and often starts with a few people. There is no denying that 42 unions and guilds, volunteers galore were busy at work building, painting, etc. etc.; One article states that Davis's opening night speech at the Canteen focused less on the executives and more on all those whose time and effort went into the hard labor to make this happen.

And all credit is due there. 100%.

But nevertheless, they were not the two people who all these articles I have seen and all evidence since, throughout history, have stated were the initial brains.

Even if on Day 2, Bette, John, and Jules Stein already got the board of directors, who according to this source, elected:

President: Bette Davis

Vice-Prez: John Garfield, Carroll Hollister, J.K. Spike Wallace

Treasurer: Al Ybarra

Secretary: Jean Lewin

And then the 42 unions/guilds. Still has to start somewhere, as with John and Bette, and Jules too as a few sources state considering his financial advisor role. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 21:06, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Hollywood Victory Committee:

https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/newspapers/image/v2%3A1223BCE5B718A166%40GB3NEWS-12A9F4218E787C42%402430714-12A51446C5B643C4%4085-12A51446C5B643C4%40?h=13&fname=&lname=&fullname=hollywood%20canteen&kwinc=%22hollywood%20canteen%22%20%22Victory%20Committee%22&kwexc=&sort=old&rgfromDate=1941&rgtoDate=1943&formDate=&formDateFlex=exact&dateType=range&processingtime=&addedFrom=&addedTo=&sid=yqllbtfdyjcfchwneejtcrorsxzaivyc_ip-10-166-46-82_1699726205641

More to come to verify my contention....

MonicaAng (talk) 18:14, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and as I stated above, if you read carefully, HVC is not the same as the Hollywood Canteen. After Davis and Garfield got the Canteen up and running, Stein got on board, Davis was elected president, Garfield vice, Al Ybarra treasurer, etc.; the various actors who were members of the HVC began to devote time to volunteering at the Canteen. It says nothing about them FORMING/FOUNDING the Canteen. That's the difference. It did NOT say they started the Hollywood Canteen. The quote reads:

"Not long ago when the Hollywood Canteen for free entertainment for every servicemen was created, every film union gave freely of its work to start the Canteen going." --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 18:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

MORE PROOF: October 6, 1942 newspaper article placing Hollywood Victory Committee as the party responsible for opening the Hollywood Canteen (2 days after the Canteen opened):

https://www.newspapers.com/image/683777960/?terms=hollywood%20victory%20committee%20%22hollywood%20canteen%22&match=4

MORE proof coming...

MonicaAng (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

This issue is bizarre to me. It is a fact, proven by the newspaper articles, that the Canteen was IN FACT started by the Hollywood Victory Committee. I am not sure how Cinemaniac86 is missing this? It was that committee who started the Canteen. This is a fact, no matter how many cherry-picked articles Cinemaniac86 uses to try to allege differently. MonicaAng (talk) 17:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Because this issue is in dispute, I am searching for the minutes of the Hollywood Victory Committee's meetings from 1942. These were online not long ago, and prove how the canteen came to exist, and it was, 100% through the Victory Committee. I also located many articles echoing this fact, and will link those as well. Why Cinemaniac86 is wanting only Bette Davis noted for the Canteen, opposed to the committee itself, I do not understand, other than it has become a myth online in recent years that Davis is singularly responsible for the Canteen, when, in fact, it was the Victory Committee as a collective who began it, and raised the funds to open it. MonicaAng (talk) 18:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Cinemaniac86 and Narrative to favor Bette Davis

As demonstrated above, I have tried to talk through the current issue of Davis' alleged involvement with the Hollywood Canteen, and the fact that it was started by the Hollywood Victory Committee, and not Davis alone. Regardless, Cinemaniac86 has not wanted to discuss this issue and come to a consensus, but instead unilaterally change contested information and threaten me if I challenge it. This is not how this process should work. MonicaAng (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

That is outlandish. First of all, why do you act as if you are the one true authority?

Secondly, you were the one who stated that all these other sources were not sufficient enough. Well, I signed up for the same source of information you did. And I'm using 1942-1945 newspapers, from the same era, which you stated would be most accurate!

Third, my search parameters were "1942-1945" and "hollywood canteen" (exact words), and page by page, it all began with 2 names: Bette Davis and John Garfield.

I suppose you're going to tell Joan Leslie, who wrote the foreword in the Hollywood Canteen book that was sourced on that page before either of us got there, that she is a liar for saying Bette and John got it off the ground?

Instead of dismissing me, why is it so hard for you to accept? Or to give Davis credit for anything? Note, I'm aiming to credit Davis AND Garfield, and yet you always focus upon Davis. Why is that?

I have found a significant amount of verification, that substantiates what every source except you seem willing to accept. Davis and Garfield got it off the ground; other heads joined. 42 guilds and unions. HVC was a part of it, but not the foundation. And Davis was president, Garfield vice-prez, and nobody else famous was elected, as substantiated by the articles I listed.

I don't know why you dislike facts so much. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 19:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is outlandish - outlandish that instead of attempting to discuss this issue here on the talk page, you instead unilaterally edit the article to what you want it to say, with an obvious slant favoring Bette Davis. I never said I am the one authority on this. I have merely posted sources verifying that the Canteen was, in fact, a project formed by the Hollywood Victory Committee. The articles you are citing about Bette Davis and John Garfield come AFTER it was open and Davis was the acting president. Those articles are NOT pertaining to WHO started the Canteen, but rather who is presiding over it years later. Again, those are cherry-picked articles by you to push the false narrative that Davis and Garfield started it. They didn't. I DO give Davis credit - but I am also giving credit to ALL members of the Hollywood Victory Committee for starting the Canteen. Why do you want ONLY Davis credited for it? "HVC was a part of it, but not the foundation." Yes, HVC was the foundation. One of the articles I posted even mentioned Davis being chastised by the HVC for not following protocol with the Canteen. MonicaAng (talk) 19:32, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

You do realize we're talking about the Hollywood Canteen, not the Hollywood Guild and Canteen run by Anne "Mom" Lehr, right? At the old Dustin Farnum mansion, Because I'm aware that that was open before the other Hollywood Canteen; I'm aware that Bette was a sponsor or chairperson of it for a while; I expanded the section on it with some articles I found on it as well, in fact. Now THAT was a project formed by the Hollywood Victory Committee, including Myrna Loy, Barbara Stanwyck, Greer Garson, Lew Ayres, and um...I forgot the guy's name, but the one who donated the pool. Uh, Tom Breneman, radio guy. I'm aware that soldiers were getting bed and breakfast there for like 6 months prior to the other one.

----

The Cahuenga Blvd. Hollywood Canteen, obviously, different. NOT a project developed by some roundtable. Davis and Garfield hatched it, got bigwigs involved, then got big stars involved and found the Barn, with 42 unions and fixed it up. That's what all the sources correspond with and verify. And again, GARFIELD and Davis. Not just Davis. Garfield too. August 1942 was the earliest article, where it got underway, and it credits them. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 19:43, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, yes, I do know of the Hollywood Guild, and no, I am not confusing the two. I do know there is an article stating Davis was chastised by the HVC over her contacting actors directly, verses through the committee in regard to the Canteen - I'll see where that one is at, too. MonicaAng (talk)

MonicaAng (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

MORE proof this Canteen was started by the Hollywood Victory Committee - dated two days after the canteen opened:

https://www.newspapers.com/image/683777960/?terms=hollywood%20victory%20committee%20%22hollywood%20canteen%22&match=4 MonicaAng (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I am willing to find a compromise on this issue, with the article stating something to the effect that the Canteen was originally formed and organized by the Hollywood Victory Committee, with Davis and Garfield being the primary overseers of it after it was opened. This would be much more accurate than the absurdity that Davis and Garfield started it. That's not not so at all, and there is too much to prove that isn't true. Davis was in the middle of filming a film when the Canteen was in development. To think she oversaw the Canteen (and all that goes with that) while also filming is, in and of itself, absurd. I also note how Davis is describe in your edits on this - all unnecessary compliments regarding her career that have nothing to do with the topic at hand like "The Canteen was the brainchild of actor John Garfield, a 'flag-waving socialist' unable to enlist because of a heart condition, and Bette Davis, the so-called 'fourth Warner Brother' and reigning queen of the studio. " - clear cut narrative-pushing. MonicaAng (talk) 19:42, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I never said that in any of my edits. That was something Anne Helen Petersen, author of the Lapham's Magazine article, wrote in her article. It's very rude of you to baselessly accuse me of something that I never wrote myself. However, I can see it being inappropriate in a citation quote, so it shall be removed from that.

I am not 100% satisfied with that statement, because it doesn't correspond with the majority of the sources and facts as I've seen. I urge you to carefully review every article that I gathered on GenealogyBank. Not just the quoted part, but look at the article or little blurb (sometimes very small, Associated Press segments). Again, I think you may be mixing up details between the two Hollywood Canteens. Bette Davis devoted her entire time, according to these newspaper articles, when it came to this Canteen. The OTHER Canteen, Mom's Canteen, seems to be when she was filming Watch on the Rhine, based on the "Blitz" article. But the timing, and the photographs as well, show her being an active participant.

Not to mention her being hospitalized for a week or so prior to the opening, when Irene Dunne hosted that luncheon. The one source that actually mentioned the Canteen from that group of people! --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 19:49, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I will review them again, as you have asked, with your points in mind. However, I do know that one of the articles stated Davis was suffering from exhaustion due to filming a film, not from the Canteen. But, please give me time to read over everything again in a good faith effort for us to resolve this issue - as opposed to name-calling and making accusations at one another, which isn't getting us anywhere. I would like to resolve this amicably and keep the article as factual as possible. Give me time to carefully look over the articles again. Fair? MonicaAng (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

While I review the articles again (as you have asked - and I am doing that in good faith), I would like to know your thoughts on this article dated October 6, 1942, which places the HVC as the founder of the Hollywood Canteen - the article is dated two days after the Canteen opened:

https://www.newspapers.com/image/683777960/?terms=hollywood%20victory%20committee%20%22hollywood%20canteen%22&match=4

MonicaAng (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you do me a kind favor please and screenshot it, upload it to Imgur for me? I only have the subscription to Genealogy, not Newspapers/Ancestry. Can't access that one. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 20:34, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I will do my best to help you with that - and, again, this is in GOOD FAITH to attempt to work with you through this issue, so I would appreciate some type of good faith effort on your part to please stop claiming I am deliberately trying to cause issue and disrupt and lie, when I think it's clear I would not be engaging in this lengthy dialogue here if my intention was to childishly lie and disrupt. MonicaAng (talk) 20:38, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Well this is good, if we can accomplish this. Now, I would also recommend taking a look at the Amazon book preview, in Kindle form (you can see more pages that way, with some pictures). It actually has a whole section mentioning the HVC, which is the way I worded it in the refurbished article.

I appreciate snapshots of this other site, until I can try to get another free trial or month-long membership of that as well. I don't wanna bore you with my life story lol, but tomorrow's my birthday, I'm almost a year sober, but taking care of 95 y/o grandma w/ uncle's support while my finances have been awry is why I couldn't subscribe. It's in good progress, but just not fully fixed yet.

Now, if we can find good, sufficient wording, maybe with third party input or not, doesn't have to be. Would you be open to reverting back to my revised article that I worked on and working backwards from there? Just due to all of the Genealogy sources I added, it was so much work to add the citations alone!

I know how you feel about the integrated dancing tidbit, for example. It's limited sourcing, and it's one example of things we could potentially remove or just keep neutral, rather than attributed to anyone specifically. Same goes for some specific duties, so that it doesn't invite favoritism. But just keep those general facts maybe, like Sgt. Carl Bell being 1,000,000th soldier, and yadda yadda.

I really enjoyed finding those articles about the OTHER Canteen, and I even made a redirect page for it, so that it would come not to the whole article, but to the subsection, which was beefed up with good information. I think the article looked a lot cleaner, and was able to outline the timeline well, and I hope you'll agree, and we can see if anything can just be modified here or there from that version, should we agree upon the wording. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 20:51, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I am totally open to a compromise, and I do understand you have worked on this, but I have also worked on this and put in a lot of time on it, too. If the Hollywood Victory Committee and its members can be cited in the article, I can see us finding a compromise here. I think it's wrong for Davis and Garfield to receive all the credit for the Canteen if that isn't the case, and I haven't seen any evidence that Davis did this all on her own - and from a logical standpoint, it's obvious she didn't. As I mentioned on the other talk page, I think there is confusion over titles and terminology. Davis and Garfield are cited as "organizers," but organizing and founding do not mean the same thing. I would please like to have time to review the articles you have added (the screenshots are good to have, but they lack the dates when I look at them) so, I am trying to look at the articles on the newspaper archives website and also respond here. I am also trying to screenshot the articles I have found and add them online for you to see. MonicaAng (talk) 21:00, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay, no problem. Note that I took both clipping screenshots and full article page screenshots, so that you have the dates with them too and can see what newspaper they're from. Then the # each has corresponds with what citation they were in the article. Look at my edit for quick link URLs to the article in the database to save yourself some time, if that helps.

Yeah, a couple articles said organizers. But Others said founders or started it, etc. Take your time, appreciate it. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 21:10, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you - I am hard working on looking it all over - again, please just give me time. My goal here is that we an find an easy resolution to put this debate to bed. MonicaAng (talk) 21:15, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are links to the articles on Imgur (so you can read them) I am posting the full page and a close up of the article.

October 6, 1942 - The Canteen and the Hollywood Victory Committee are mentioned here:

https://imgur.com/a/QzMfPbf

Also, here is page 211 from "Dark Victory: The Life of Bette Davis" This is directly regarding the Hollywood Victory Committee and the Canteen, and how Davis was chastised by the Committee for not following protocol while organizing the Canteen:

https://imgur.com/a/xfKZ1mB

MonicaAng (talk) 21:42, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Sources The Hollywood Canteen Was Founded by The Hollywood Victory Committee

Because this issue is so heavily debated between I and another editor, here are sources proving the Canteen was, in fact, a project of the Hollywood Victory Committee, as opposed to the common internet myth that it was the sole brainchild of Bette Davis and John Garfield (who were members of the H.V.C.). I did not want these sources to be "buried" in our debate, and I am creating this separate header on the article's talk page for them. It appears the other editor is confusing Davis' president role of the Canteen (AFTER it opened) as meaning Davis actually founded the Canteen and funded it. I will be expanding this section with additional sources on this debate.

August 25, 1942 newspaper article: https://www.newspapers.com/image/184135083/?terms=%22victory%20committee%22%20%22hollywood%20canteen%22&match=2

October 6, 1942 newspaper article: https://www.newspapers.com/image/683777960/?terms=hollywood%20victory%20committee%20%22hollywood%20canteen%22&match=4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaAng (talk • contribs) 20:31, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The Oct. 6, 1942 source says nothing about the Hollywood Canteen being a project of the Hollywood Victory Committee. The "Tributes" column raves about the media industry supporting armed forces via the canteen, then pivots to all the other contributions the industry was making: the Hollywood Victory Committee, war bond tours, camp entertainment, "Stars Over America" tours, special radio broadcasts, USO shows, and so on. Schazjmd (talk) 21:03, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but it does. The October 6th article is specifically about the Canteen opening two days prior, and states it was an "additional contribution" through the great work of the industry "through the Hollywood Victory Committee." MonicaAng (talk) 21:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

It states:

The opening of the Hollywood Canteen Saturday night was a splendid tribute to the motion picture and radio industries as well as to Servicemen.

The good sportsmanship of the men and women of the industries and their willingness to sacrifice themselves to contribute to the entertainment of the men in the Service through the conduct of the Canteen have been placed strongly in evidence.

When one adds this additional contribution to the great work of the industries which through the Hollywood Victory Committee are contributing to the sale of bonds and the entertainment of the Servicemen in all the camps of the country and Alaska he realizes their great value in the great cause of winning the war.

I added the bold. That last paragraph says that the canteen is an additional contribution to "the great work of the industries". It says the industries are contributing to sale of bonds and entertainment through the committee. It characterizes the canteen as part of "the great work of the industries", of which the committee was also an example. Schazjmd (talk) 21:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, however, the Hollywood Victory Committee is cited in this context as opposed to the various other committees operating within the Hollywood community - such as the USO. Also, please read to the END of the article. The Canteen and the Committee are mentioned further down in further context connecting the two. Also please also see the below link I posted for Davis biography "Dark Victory" whereby Davis was chastised by the Hollywood Victory Committee during the organization of the Canteen. This also helps to draw the direct connection between the Committee (of which Davis was a member) and the organizing/founding of the Canteen. MonicaAng (talk) 21:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The Oct. 6 articles does not say the canteen was run by or a project of the committee. Also, I've repaired the indents in this thread; please only add one level when replying, not five or six at a time. Schazjmd (talk) 21:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Very interesting article information and book excerpt. Yet neither substantiate the HVC as founder claims.

I agree with @Schazjmd that the article gives praise to the Canteen and Victory Committee separately, for their separate efforts in morale during wartime. And if they're mentioned further down, quote them.

Also, the book excerpt below has no correlation either. I'll respond down there though.

Otherwise, this article is yet another in which the two terminologies are mentioned, yet have no direct connection. @Schazjmd When you have a chance, please refer to my above section with the Imgur screenshots. There are clippings (zoomed in for clearer view) and full pages (just to verify the dates and newspaper origins). --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 21:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

According to Bette Davis biography "Dark Victory" (which has already been used as a source for the Hollywood Canteen article) Davis was chastised by the Hollywood Victory Committee for contacting stars directly, verses going through the committee - as she as supposed to do in regard to organizing the Canteen. So, logically, if the Committee had nothing to do with founding the Canteen, then why would they be chastising Davis' actions with organizing it? This information is on page 211 of "Dark Victory: The Life of Bette Davis." Here is the direct link to it online:

https://books.google.com/books/content?id=IVF8dddede8C&pg=PA211&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U3sYjLMFv-WPmuODkxtOrqowANfMA&w=1280

MonicaAng (talk) 21:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

This was a fascinating excerpt. But once again, as I had referenced in my revision of the article last week:

After Davis and Garfield founded the Canteen, according to what I've sourced, Chapter 4 of the Hollywood Canteen book on Amazon (Mitchell & Torrence) states that Davis contacted the Hollywood Victory Committee. She requested and received permission to contact members of the committee directly to participate in the Canteen, so that they could then branch off and assemble quickly, rather than have to go through HVC as middleman every single time per star. This seems to be corroborated in this "Dark Victory" book sample, where Bette states that "the committee agreed to let her and her team call people at the last minute if necessary".

So @Schazjmd, thoughts here?

This also conveys that Davis was leading the charge at the Canteen, not through the foundation of HVC. The Victory Committee existed as its own separate contingency, functioning for wartime entertainment, war bond drives, etc.; an agency, basically. And the Canteen contacted them for volunteers. The terms of which seemed to be initially free agency, but Cagney attempted to reverse that policy. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 22:00, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment of the article and the book. However, what are your thoughts on coming to a compromise on this issue given the contradicting terminology in the all of the sources that have been cited here by you and I. Even you agree that the sources you have cited cannot agree on a terminology to describe Davis and Garfield's actual roles in forming the Canteen. What if we can comprise on something to the effect of:

"In 1942, members of the Hollywood industry came together to form the Hollywood Canteen. Bette Davis and John Garfield acted as organizers to establish the Canteen."

I think this encompasses the sources and gives the article's information a more factual/fair foundation. Due to the obvious contradicting statements in the sources, I think "organizers" would be more fair to say than "founders." MonicaAng (talk) 22:11, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

From the information I have found, the HVC wasn't an agency, nor did it operate as such - it was a committee, composed of approximately 12 or so members (two of which were Davis and Garfield). From my understanding, The HVC chastised Davis regarding contacting stars because the Canteen came about via discussions at the HVC, and she didn't follow the protocol of allowing the committee to contact the stars. The "stars" who volunteered at the Canteen were not members of the HVC, but because the committee appointed Davis as an overseer/organizer of the Canteen, she was also given protocols to follow. At least that is my interpretation of the events. Regardless, see my compromise above and let me know your thoughts. MonicaAng (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Kevin Starr's Embattled Dreams: California in War and Peace, 1940-1950 (2002, Oxford University Press) has a chapter on the canteen.

This effort to connect, culminating in the tours of Dietrich and Hope, began in early 1942 with the establishment of the Hollywood Canteen. Bette Davis, at thirty-four at the height of her powers as an actress, and John Garfield, feeling uneasy about being classified 4F, came up with the idea just after Pearl Harbor as they sat together over lunch in the Green Room (stars only) at the Warner Brothers commissary.

Starr then explains that the Hollywood Victory Committee was an obstacle to the project:

The Victory Committee, an organization of film stars, agents, and other members of the industry loath to squander their talent, even for patriotic purposes in wartime, claimed total jurisdiction over all appearances by Hollywood stars in war-related causes. [...] As Davis and Garfield envisioned the Canteen, it would be open twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. How in the world, asked the Victory Committee, James Cagney especially, could such an operation feature Hollywood celebrities without burning them out completely, or, worse, over-exposing them to the servicement: pressing too much flesh in person, that is, hence diminishing the value, the magical presence, of the Hollywood star? In later years, Bette Davis considered it one of the greatest achievements of her life that she succeeded in persuading the Victory Committee to allow such an open-ended staffing pattern, so contrary to the cautious exposure characteristic of tightly managed Hollywood careers. David also persuaded more than forty-two Hollywood guilds and crafts unions to bend their equally draconian rules and donate their services for the refurbishment of the Canteen, which she had leased for $100 for the duration of the war plus six months. For fundraising, David turned to Jules Stein, head of the Music Corporation of America, who advised her to establish a Hollywood Canteen Foundation as the non-profit vehicle to raise money and administer the program.

It sounds like the committee's involvement consisted of allowing stars to participate.

However, the Hollywood Victory Committee had no authority over any stars? It was a committee formed specifically to organize wartime efforts. MonicaAng (talk) 22:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, there's a great alternative source. Is that a scholastic journal?

Actually, I think that's pretty good wording that I'm more comfortable with thus far. That definitely encompasses both Davis/Garfield being initial driving forces, and then the overall effort with the 42 guilds/unions and stars.

In 1942, members of the Hollywood industry came together to form the Hollywood Canteen. Bette Davis and John Garfield were credited with organizing the canteen.

Cool with this, so far? (Do you want to omit the portion afterward "inspired by Garfield's visit to NYC's Stage Door"? Just because it's fluff?) So this is our working statement for now.

Yup, that Green Room excerpt is what I read in the newspaper thrice and the Amazon book. And that except about Cagney has some good information combined with the other Dark Victory page, about HVC's rules being squeezed.

I also like that this paragraph corroborated the information about "persuading the 42 guilds and unions" plus Jules Stein; the latter could use an extra citation.

Thank you for those excerpts. As I interpret them, they do support how I had written the article before. The timeline and structure, from organizing, to the election, to Jules Stein, then the 42, and then the HVC where we will expand with Cagney. And then the Hedy Lamarr/Cagney excerpt from Dark Victory would probably be inserted a little later.

Mind if I revert the article back to my edit, and we'll work on what to remove or add? I think we're getting somewhere with these new sources. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 22:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Another mention of Stein:

Founded by Bette Davis and John Garfield in 1942 with financial support from Jules Stein, the head of the powerful Music Corporation of America agency, the Hollywood Canteen was the West Coast's answer to New York's Stage Door Canteen, a club where servicemen could come to be entertained for free and mix with show-business stars. Bright Boulevards, Bold Dreams (2009, Donald Bogle, Random House Publishing)

I think worth including is also on the same page of the source: Yet whereas the USO was segregated, with separate clubs for white and Negro soldiers, the Hollywood Canteen, like the East Coast Stage Door Canteen, was as open and integrated as possible at the time. Schazjmd (talk) 23:19, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, that was you sourcing the journal, my bad. I got confused, just noticed the edit history. What with the indent-jumping and all, lol. Thank you for these additional sources.

Ah, excellent, that's terrific. So that actually, just goes back and couples well with my rendition of the article. Would you be okay with restoring the article page to that more accurate information? Even if we all do come to a consensus on rewording.

I agree with your assessment about that paragraph surmising that it was more of a hindrance at first.

Glad to have more proof about the integration as well, excellent. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 23:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Cinemaniac; Yes - I think that is definitely a good jumping off point for the area of the article describing its origins. I don't see an issue with the John Garfield mention of seeing the "Stage Door Canteen." I have seen that cited in various sources, and I don't dispute that element of the story. Here's my working idea of using your revision, and only altering a few things here and there. I think this gives the article a more rounded, fair approach:

"In 1942, members of the Hollywood industry came together to form the Hollywood Canteen. Bette Davis and John Garfield were credited with organizing the canteen. It was inspired by Garfield's visit to NYC's counterpart, the Stage Door Canteen, which was formed and operated by the New York theater industry. A board of directors was form, which later included Bob Hope (who in turn elected a slate of officers which included Davis as president and Garfield as one of its vice-presidents). They would both maintain their elected positions throughout the entirety of the war and thus, the Hollywood Canteen's duration. Other officers included Jean Lewin as secretary, Al Ybarra as treasurer, and musicians' union leader J.K. Wallace as another vice-president. The Canteen also obtained the assistance of Jules Stein, head of the Music Corporation of America, to help as a financial advisor.

Garfield, Davis, and the rest of the elected officers then sought an establishment. They found an abandoned nightclub, formerly known as "The Barn" or "Rio Grande Hall". They also enlisted support from 42 different guilds and unions within Hollywood's entertainment industry, who sponsored the endeavor and amended their by-laws, which enabled the individuals to volunteer their time and labor free of compensation. Numerous carpenters, electricians, plumbers, and other trades within the industry worked alongside the stars with donated materials to refurbish the building. The Hollywood Victory Committee, who selected entertainers to be sent out to soldier camps and on war bond drives, was also involved with organizing the stars who would appear at the Canteen. During this phase, Davis requested and received consent from the Hollywood Victory Committee to contact members directly regarding their participation in the Hollywood Canteen.

The first fundraiser for the new canteen came the month prior to its opening, courtesy of the film premiere of The Talk of the Town (1942), starring Cary Grant, Jean Arthur, and Ronald Colman. At the behest of publicist Bob Taplinger, each ticket was coupled with an invite to the afterparty at Ciro's nightclub. Proceeds went directly to the Hollywood Canteen, and were estimated to be over $5,000.

One week prior to the grand opening, Davis suffered from exhaustion after completing filming on Watch on the Rhine, however, she was present for opening night. Irene Dunne presided over a Hollywood Canteen committee luncheon at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, in which local merchants and vendors gathered to discuss various supplies to donate for the following week's opening."

So far so good? Regarding the integration, I think that should be mentioned, but I don't think it should be mentioned within the context that it was Davis alone who decided that element of the Canteen - since the article will mention a board of directors, and obviously a board would have decided such and issue at the time. Everything else, I'm fine with. Let me know your thoughts. MonicaAng (talk) 23:37, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate you retaining my text and structure, and interweaving some new phrasing in. (If you noticed, last week, I included the Dunne sentence, and the HVC info, hoping you'd notice that I was extending an olive branch myself.) Yeah, a bit of polishing, but this Background section's working for me overall. It has the timeline of its formation. We have our new opening line, flowing into the elections, Stein. Then the Barn, 42, HVC, Talk of the Town, exhaustion, and Dunne. Great.

Would you be okay with an inclusion of Davis/Garfield and the green room. Phrasing it in a way such as, Bette Davis and John Garfield were credited with organizing the canteen, which began one day at the green room at Warner Bros. studio. Something like that. Followed by the sentence about it being inspired by his visit to Stage Door Canteen. Could possibly remove "one day". But does that sound all right?

Sure, I'm comfortable with that approach regarding the integration. It's definitely an important fact to mention it at all, of course. So we'll just cut out the quote part at the end of that paragraph, where they contacted Davis. @Schazjmd provided an additional source above, which I think can help anchor that paragraph's weight, but keep it neutral for your satisfaction.

I think that covers just about everything there. Next up is the Grand Opening section! --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 00:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Great! Thanks heavens that's resolved. I admit, I'm not 100% on board with the green room at Warners mention - only because I know I have read conflicting accounts about how discussion happened. Perhaps not include that - at least for now until we can looking more into that, okay? Aside from the integration issue (which it sounds like we have already figure that one out), I'm totally fine with the rest of your revision of the article's sections. The "History/Background" section was my area of concern. So, if everything is good for you, I say go ahead and feel free to revert it to your prior edited version, with the changes we discuss above. MonicaAng (talk) 00:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Awww..Well, thank you very much for liking the rest of my article amendments. I had hoped you would appreciate that Mom Lehr's getting her own section, since I do feel it's notable enough to warrant it. The list is great too; I'm not really too worried about citing those right now honestly. I've seen the photo album, so visually we both know they're legitimate, most of them proven. I can't source the website I saw the photos on apparently, which is fine. I think it's basically accepted that, if you were a working celebrity then, most likely you devoted time. Unless you were Greta Garbo, or Charlie Chaplin after the Oona scandal....But I digress.

I'm glad we were able to simmer down and come to an amicable resolution, and I think it definitely suits the subject matter just right. If you wish regarding the green room for now. But I can accept that. I'll take care of the reverting and rewording, and I'll add in the new sources we've all found today, where appropriate!

For anyone else who drops by, feel free to chime in on whether that little tidbit about the "green room" meeting is worth including or not.

All right, so this wording then will be the same on the film, Davis, Garfield, etc. pages, for consistency.

And I think that's it! Thanks for compromising and meeting me halfway, and I'm glad things ended peacefully. Hopefully in the future, we'll just continue this way. Just reach out to me or vice-versa me the same.

P.S. Kind of ironic that we resolved this on Veterans' Day, don't you think? --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 00:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. I, too, and glad we got to a resolution, and I wish this would have been the situation from the beginning. Nonetheless, it's resolved and we did it amicably. Yes, definitely ironic it was resolved on Veteran's Day. MonicaAng (talk) 01:04, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Cinemaniac86 - From our convo above, I thought we had agreed upon "Bette Davis and John Garfield were credited with organizing the canteen..." for the opening sentence? Though, it still has "founded" in there with it. Maybe this was just an oversight since "founded" was in the original revision. Also, the one part about "Davis was hospitalized for exhaustion a week prior to the grand opening." may give the impression to readers that Davis was exhausted from organizing the Canteen, however, it was (according to the [2]article) her film tour is what exhausted her, but also the article doesn't state she was hospitalized, but rather her doctor "sent her to bed for a long rest." Can we maybe say something more inline with the article on that? Like "Davis was exhausted from a recent tour just prior to the grand opening. However, she was present for opening night." ? Regarding the topic of integration, can we add in there the context of why Davis was contacted via info from the article? Such as: "Purportedly, while Bette Davis was away at Palm Springs one weekend, she was contacted by a volunteer to ask whether or not integrated dancing should be prohibited. In her capacity as president of the Canteen, she replied, "Of course not, let them dance if they want to." I'm sorry to be nitpicky on that part, but I have read a lot of misstatements online of people assuming Davis decided that stance. However according to the article, it was the Canteen's stance (which had a board) and Davis was simply the person contacted to ask due to her position as president of the Canteen. I'm good with everything else in the article - Thanks! MonicaAng (talk) 05:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey @MonicaAng, my bad, I haven't fully finished yet! I had gotten distracted with IRL chores. So I restored my version but haven't edited in our consensus changes completely yet; I have them all typed up. The organizing opening, the hospitalization I framed around Watch on the Rhine. Also, there was another source that stated "hospitalization", Louella Parsons, though I didn't use it because I didn't wanna use the same author too frequently. But that's fine, "medical bedrest from exhaustion"? And no worries, as per our agreement, I thought it best if we just exclude that quote. Just highlighted how both Stage Door and Hollywood were integrated socially and allowed mixed dancing, whereas USO was segregated per the new source above. Keeping it neutral and basic. All good? =) Apologies for being slow and meticulous. It'll look good! I was toying with spacing too, and how it would look with the "green room" sentence vs. without, just in case we can agree to include that minor aspect later. Lemme try and get the main text posted, then I'll toy with the adjusted citations in a separate edit. --Cinemaniac86^Talk_Stalk 05:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Sounds great - sorry if I was too quick to ask. Thanks for clarifying! MonicaAng (talk) 06:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Mention of founders in lead

I don't quite understand the arguments above, but literally every source, scholastic or not, mentions Davis and Garfield as the founders of the Hollywood Canteen. How come this info is removed from the lead? Just looking through the sources, here are most random examples (specifically old ones, not so-called internet myth or other speculations):

• Torrence, Bruce T. (1982). Hollywood, the First Hundred Years. New York Zoetrope. p. 201. ISBN 978-0-918432-44-5. Bette Davis and John Garfield founded the Hollywood Canteen along with the support of Dr. Jules Stein
• Parish, James Robert; Pitts, Michael R.; Mank, Gregory W. (1978). Hollywood on Hollywood. Scarecrow Press. p. 166. ISBN 978-0-8108-1164-5. Hollywood Canteen , an entertainment center for soldiers founded by Bette Davis and John Garfield and supervised by Hollywood personalities.
• Rose, Frank (1996). The Agency: William Morris and the Hidden History of Show Business. Frank Rose. p. 86. ISBN 978-0-88730-807-9. JULES STEIN'S CONTRIBUTION TO THE WAR EFFORT WAS A SERIES OF DEALS to benefit the Hollywood Canteen , a rustic , barnlike servicemen's club on Cahuenga Boulevard that Bette Davis and John Garfield threw together with his help.
• Winnert, Derek (1995). The Virgin Encyclopedia of the Movies: The Definitive Illustrated Guide to the Movies. Virgin Books. p. 25. ISBN 978-1-85227-536-5. Hollywood Canteen ... founded in 1942 with Bette Davis as its first president, was a club open to military personnel in which stars would mingle with servicemen, perform and serve food.
• Charyn, Jerome (August 1996). Movieland: Hollywood and the Great American Dream Culture. NYU Press. p. 236. ISBN 978-0-8147-1550-5. John Garfield, a refugee from the Group Theatre, noticed the success of New York's Stage Door Canteen and had a particular brainstorm: Why couldn't Hollywood have its own canteen where servicemen could come and meet the stars? He approached Bette Davis. She found an old stable on Cahuenga Boulevard, leased it for a hundred dollars a month, marshaled all the studios to help her, and became president of this phantom society: the Hollywood Canteen.
• Bronfen, Elisabeth (3 October 2012). Specters of War: Hollywood's Engagement with Military Conflict. Rutgers University Press. p. 89. ISBN 978-0-8135-5399-3. Hollywood Canteen on the West Coast founded by Bette Davis and John Garfield in 1942 for soldiers about to be shipped...

And there are plenty more. Eventually, I propose the following addition to the article's lead:

"The Hollywood Canteen, founded in 1942 by Bette Davis, John Garfield and (with the financial help of) Jules Stein, operated..."

From what I gather - Cinemaniac86, User:Schazjmd - you all agree, based on sources, that this is the right piece of information. Based on the article's contributions history, another user (Nlb2023) and many others thought so. Why then isn't it here? I give my support, and therefore, there is consensus to reinsert it right away (even if there's a single user who opposes it). In many ways, I demand that it be restored. Shahid • ^Talk2me 21:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Cinemaniac86; User:Schazjmd: I'm trying again as there hasn't been any reply. Shahid • ^Talk2me 09:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Shshshsh. I took this article back off my watchlist when it appeared that Cinemaniac86 and MonicaAng had reached an agreement on wording. I'm fine with it if you want to add that to the lead. Schazjmd (talk) 13:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)