Talk:Hong Kong national football team

Requested move

This article has now been moved despite no discussion has been taken. The reasons for which it was moved, as I see it, was that Hong Kong itself is not a sovereign state, and the word "national" was therefore considered by the users who moved the article as incorrect (the users also have past records to equate country with sovereign state, and asserts only sovereign states are countries). The users who have moved this article has no intention to nominate it for discussion, and one of them has declined to restore it to the original title to allow a discussion to take place [1] [2] [3] [4] [5].

One of the two users who moved this article has also moved Macau national football team (talk) and Guam national football team (talk) based on the same reasons. — Instantnood 18:45, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

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Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose the move. China Daily [6] [7], InvestHK [8], BBC Sport [9], Hong Kong Football Association [10] and Man Utd [11] calls it Hong Kong national team. The English word "national" is not exclusively for sovereign states. The word is not always used in a manner that stick with the definitions of "nation". Please don't equate "nation", "country" and "sovereign state". — Instantnood 18:45, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose If China Daily has no problem with the term, then I dont see why we should have a problem.--Jiang 18:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH I don't know what I'm opposing or supporting. HKFA calls it "representative team" so that's where I moved it to. That's what I support. SchmuckyTheCat 19:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose 1. IOC calls their members National Olympic Committees [12], which include Hong Kong and Guam, so I don't see the problem of the teams being called national teams. 2. The team name is not a trademark or a brand name, so whatever the FA calls it does not take precedence over clarity and accuracy. From Wikipedia:Naming conventions:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Chanheigeorge 19:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Dragons flight 00:09, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• I wonder what is the purpose of this move request when the move has already been made.--Huaiwei 19:14, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• Response to user:Huaiwei's comment at WP:RM [13]: The HKFA calls it Hong Kong national team too, as well as a quote of the HKFA president in an article on the website of a department of the Hong Kong Government (see above). — Instantnood 19:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
  • And that was in just 5 occasions in the entire site. "Hong Kong Representative Team" on the other hand produces 59. The numbers speaks for itself.--Huaiwei 19:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved from WP:RM page (Philip Baird Shearer):

• The Hong Kong team is not refered to as a national team by its governing body, and it is not a national team. I would caution admins in carrying out these moves, as instantnood did not follow the steps required for RM as above.--Huaiwei 19:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• Instantnood has the arrows backwards, methinks, he is proposing to move them to where they actually are. Regardless, the articles are currently in their correct places "regional" for regions, and the HK team goes by "representative team" by it's association. SchmuckyTheCat 19:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• 1. IOC calls their members National Olympic Committees, which include Hong Kong and Guam, so I don't see the problem of the teams being called national teams. 2. The team name is not a trademark or a brand name, so whatever the FA calls it does not take precedence over clarity and accuracy. From Wikipedia:Naming conventions:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Chanheigeorge 01:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Historical Flags

Conventionally, the flag in use at the time of the historical event is used when applied to a sports team. As such, the Hong Kong Flag adopted in 1910 should be used for Hong Kong's first international, and the Hong Kong Flag adopted in 1959 should be used for Hong Kong's worst defeat which came in 1980. I do not know how to do this, however. Both are available at Flag of Hong Kong. - RPIRED 02:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

What was the colour before 1997? Iianq 16:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Neologism reverted

In English the team is officially referred to as the "Hong Kong national team": Hansard, InvestHK, InvestHK. Other sources: Manchester United, Manchester United. Antineologism (talk) 21:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

This is absolute nonsense. The team is officially known simply as the "Hong Kong team" in English as far as the The Hong Kong Football Association is concerned[14], with its Chinese name as "香港代表隊", translated as "Hong Kong Representative Team".[15]--Huaiwei (talk) 23:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hong Kong is bilingual. Please present the evidence that the team is known in English as the "Hong Kong football representative team". Antineologism (talk) 13:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

If you are similarly bilingual, I do believe you are able to comprehend my post above which I would think already addresses your query sufficiently.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

in Wikipedia, all team were ended at "national football team" except some were "national soccer team" or "Men's national". Matthew_hk tc 05:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Has this been established as a naming convention? Even if so, a naming convention which is not based on wikipedia policies of WP:NPOV. and WP:V, and which does not conform to WP:Commonname is certainly likely to come under contestation, as is happening now.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move (2nd)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The result was Move per the general naming convention. пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Hong Kong football team → Hong Kong national football team — Just follow the MOS of the title please. — Matthew_hk tc 05:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support or move to the name of "Hong Kong football representative team" - Yeah, I agree that Hong Kong is not a national country. However, MOS decided what name we should use. And "Hong Kong football team" may lead confusion. I mean it could be refer to the local football teams such as South China AA, Eastern AA, Convey Sunhei, Happy Valley, or so on. However, if wanting to avoid confusion on the view of Hong Kong is a country, "representative" is a good idea. Raymond "Giggs" Ko 06:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose or move to the name of "Hong Kong football representative team" - In fact, this article was originally at "Hong Kong football representative team" until some individuals in wikipedia decided to unilaterally accord it "national" status when the club has never accorded itself that designation. The MOS is merely a guideline, and it will not supersede wikipedia policies of WP:NPOV (inserting a "national" tag may be interpreted as a promotion of "HK nationalism"), WP:OR (the team's entire site doesn't mention the word "national" anywhere) or WP:V (the only sources who do on the internet are not authoritative on such matters, using the word "national" out of mere convenience or assumed "convention"). And if we are to consider Wikipedia's naming conventions, "Hong Kong national football team" actually has less google counts than "Hong Kong football team", so Wikipedia:COMMONNAMES will not be in the favour of this move request either.--Huaiwei (talk) 07:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support Matthew_hk's proposal, and oppose "Hong Kong football representative team". It should be Huaiwei to request instead. But what he did was to move it without consultation, and made an irrelevant edit to the redirect to avoid his act being undone. Antineologism (talk) 13:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

— Antineologism (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• • Comment It may be noted that this or this were not "consulted" moves either. I fail to comprehend how adding categories to redirects can be considered "irrelevant".--Huaiwei (talk) 20:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose or move to the name of "Hong Kong football representative team" - I think the fact that Hong Kong is not a nation is a good enough reason that the team should not be called Hong Kong national football team. However, Hong Kong football team is a relatively general term. I think changing the name to "Hong Kong football representative team" is a better choice. Checkiema (talk) 14:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
  • It would be important to note that the word national is not so restrictive. Those that are not sovereign states can use it too. Both the Hong Kong government and the legislature use it, as well as the state-run English-language newspaper of communist China. "Hong Kong football representative team" is Huaiwei's invention. There is no result on Google. Antineologism (talk) 20:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment If I may repeat comments already made in the above section[16], the The Hong Kong Football Association calls the team "Hong Kong Team" in English[17] and "香港代表隊" in Chinese, translated as "Hong Kong Representative Team"[[18]]. Google searches for "Hong Kong Representative Team" certainly shows up entries[19], so it must have been a case of sheer coincidence that each of those sources conjures up the same name as I did? Of course, we only add "football" to ""Hong Kong Representative Team" to avoid confusions with similar teams for other sports who may bear the same name.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support - We have England national football team and Wales national football team and they're not sovereign states, so why shouldn't we have Hong Kong national football team. – PeeJay 13:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment The name of one entity does not necessarily determine the name of another. If we are to use the same logic, the word "national" should be dropped from both examples listed above, since neither has the word "national" in their team names.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support proposed move, but oppose Hong Kong football representative team. As noted in the earlier discussion at the top of this page, many media agencies (including some Chinese) have no problem at all with referring to Hong Kong as a "national" team, and nor should we. Lets not start inventing terms which may technically be "correct", but have no common usage whatsoever. PC78 (talk) 17:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment There is simply no evidence presented to suggest that "Hong Kong national football team" has greater common usage than "Hong Kong football team". If we may ignore the fallacies of a google search for now, ""hong kong football team"-wikipedia" has 158 results and ""hong kong national football team"-wikipedia" has 122, which would not be convincing as far as Wikipedia:COMMONNAMES is concerned. It should be further noted that this search dosent include "Hong Kong Team" itself, which is the official name. When one tries "football national "hong kong team" -wikipedia", we get 683 results.[20] "football -national "hong kong team" -wikipedia" produces 1390.[21]
  • A highly selective range of sources do a bad job of establishing usage patterns. The People's Daily published in China uses "hong kong football team"[22][23] , as does Microsoft[24], IHT[25] and the Sports Federation & Olympic Committee of Hong Kong[26]. The South China Morning Post uses "Hong Kong Team" [27], as does Channelnews Asia[28], Bangkok Post[29], KNCA[30], BBC[31], FIFA[32], China Sports Today[33] etc, etc. The EAFF mentions "Hong Kong Representative Team"[34]. For every instance of the word "national" appearing in a source, there will be at least two other sources without.
  • As for the claim that Chinese news agencies use the word national, do note that both sources cited from the China Daily site ([35] [36]) are news pieces from agencies other then Xinhua. All news written by Xinhua are indicated prominently.--Huaiwei (talk) 21:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support "Hong Kong national football team" as per general association football naming consensus. --Jimbo^[online] 19:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. Kindly cite this naming consensus, and if this is applicable in the context of a team's actual name.--Huaiwei (talk) 03:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support. The team competes in international football, therefore it is by definition a national team. See also Chinese Taipei national football team and Macau national football team. I think we need to call this team a national team to create a clearer difference between it and the Hong Kong League XI. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. And this remains an unverified self-definition not supported by credible sources. Both the Hong Kong and Macau teams are officially called "representation teams", for they represent a region, not a nation. One will be hardpressed to find credible sources which rebukes this.--Huaiwei (talk) 19:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments: Matthew_hk tc 05:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2010 Long Teng Cup

How come the 2010 Long Teng Cup has been removed from the article although you won it? Druryfire (talk) 07:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Coaches

The table contradicted with Hong Kong national football team results. According to the search of newspaper Hsu King Shing was supposed the coach of Hong Kong in 1970 Jakarta Anniversary Tournament, which for unknown reason, NOT in FIFA.com database. However, the tournament consisted of 4 games, so the 3 games under Hsu in the table of Hong Kong national football team came from?

Also, according to another news, in 1971 Chan Fai Hung was leading Hong Kong League XI for a friendly against an Austrian club, while the coach of Hong Kong was Chinese: 駱德興. It is worth to mention it. Matthew_hk tc 19:43, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

In June 1971 against Thailand national football team the coach was yet another people 曾啟榮 Matthew_hk tc 20:23, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

References

First game

I think the Macau-Hong Kong Interport was not the first unofficial game. In 1937 Shanghai-Hong Kong Interport was held. Matthew_hk tc 22:48, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Caps

Where are the sources for the number of caps each player has won? Any official source? CityPride (talk) 10:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Source for this Page

Found this website that includes all-time records Hong Kong national football team statistics. But I am confused about the sites authenticity. Need help from any other editor who can verify if the site is trustworthy or not. As far as I belive, I am feeling positive about it. But,double check is a better option. here's the site link:https://www.11v11.com/teams/hong-kong/tab/stats/season/1962/ Mommmyy (talk) 08:48, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Afghanistan national football team which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:25, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Afghanistan national football team which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)