Talk:Ice hockey

What's this "group"?

Who defines it as a group? Please see my question at talk:Bandy.95.199.138.45 (talk) 17:06, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

• That's a good question; do we group basketball, volleyball, roller derby, amateur wrestling and competitive bicycle racing because they're played on wooden floors? Ravenswing 21:26, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

  They seem to be a lot closer connected than that. From a brief look, it appears that all four sports are played by skaters who use a stick to knock an object into a goal. They seem at least as closely related as the various codes of football (American football, association football, rugby, etc). That said, we should find sources that consider these sports together, rather than abstracting the commonality on our own initiative. --Trovatore (talk) 00:58, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Comparison with other winter sports requiring skates

This edit [1] has been made four times by the same user without any attempt to discuss it (and an apparently related version yesterday) [2]. It has been undone by user:Lord Belbury and myself (yesterday's version was undone by user:Ravenswing. Restoring this contested edit is not a minor edit, and the edit summary "Behind other editors time wise, talk page is open for discussion." makes no sense. It's up to the editor attempting to add the contested material to open the discussion and justify the material. Meters (talk) 19:51, 8 February 2022 (UTC) re-signied so pings will work

• My own two cents is this. User:CheckersBoard has, for some time now, been introducing a fair bit of fringe material into this and other hockey-related articles, in particular pushing the somewhat obscure sport of ringette (played by women in Canada, especially before it was acceptable for women to play ice hockey) both into this article and into the lead. Further, CheckersBoard has a long history of warnings for edit warring [3][4][5][6][7][8][9], copyright violations [10][11], poor or missing citations [12][13][14][15][16], unexplained content removal[17], original research [18], and article ownership [19]. This is a staggering record, and it is long past time to demand that he obtain consensus from other editors as a prerequisite to making further edits to this article. Ravenswing 20:06, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi. I apologize in advance because I have not really used the talk page option OFTEN, so I may not be using it as well as I could otherwise. This is about a problem regarding four winter sports which wiki covers: ice hockey, bandy, rinkball and ringette. Have been editing for a while, and while some things may have become obvious to me over the time I've been editing, I forgot that it may not be obvious to others.

I keep running into a number of problems with these four sports. They do have shared characteristics that are fundamental and make them distinct from other winter team sports, four of which most notably stick out, with the fact that they require ice skating skills being the most fundamental. However, as it turns out they also have overlapping histories in many ways *headdesk*, eg. equipment development, playing surfaces, and even some rules which influenced the develop of one of the related sports directly. So this turned out not to be as trivial as I first thought. But they are interesting.

I can't figure out where it's best to group/put them together. I thought there was an easy way to do this and that has not turned out to be the case. So, at first I was simply adding (what I thought was obvious at the time) information in short form on different articles to help link them together. Then I realized I needed references and did find some which were verifiable sources, which was somewhat helpful, but then I accidentally wound up expanding those parts to a length that simply wasn't reasonable and was too extensive. So I tried to go back, delete, simplify, etc. That apparently isn't working either. Next idea was, "maybe it needs it's own article". I'm not sure how well that would work either, it seems difficult and could be too big of a job, at least for me.

Then I started looking around wiki a bit more, if it were to be done, it might fit better under the "Winter sports" page somehow. Probably the easiest to do and organize, and a better approach due to the fact that you can create a subheading with 4 sections which include basic information about each of these four team ice skating sports and include a link to the sports main article.

But I can't imagine at this point being able to do it alone and I've hit a dead end. The only reason I would like to do it is to help spare wiki readers the torture I feel like I've been through just trying to find information of these organized sports in a nice, informative, easily accessible, and well organized place which allows people to add pertinent information and better sources. Not being able to find the info I was looking for is probably the biggest reason why I keep coming back to try and edit these articles in particular, so other people, hopefully, don't have to suffer (as much) as I have lol. Not that it's all torture of course, and it's not a job or required, but I wish I could do a better job so others can enjoy that trip. CheckersBoard (talk) 22:03, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok wait, edit warring? "especially before it was acceptable for women to play ice hockey". First, and let me be clear, I don't appreciate nor deserve this vitriol.

WARNING: "especially before it was acceptable for women to play ice hockey": This is factually incorrect. Legitimate sources are provided within the article itself. Ravenswing is leasing with emotion and opinion, not fact. I sourced this. Obviously someone has been waiting to launch an attack. If any other editors are coming in to speak, I believe it's important that they use their best judgment when it comes to evaluating Ravenswings claims (unless they themselves have a similar angry agenda) which in themselves qualify as edit warring without justification. Especially with the aggressive and abusive tone involved. The only edit warring here right now is being brought by this individual who is on a war path. I have spoken to other editors and they don't approach other editors this way, and if it gets heated, it usually simmers down after talking.

So, please be aware that someone with an ulterior motive which has nothing to do with wiki is potentially involved. There is no need for this level of aggression, but clearly, someone is unhappy with information that upsets something they believe to be untrue, when it is not. I suggest Ravenswing do their own research on this one issue FIRST, which is obviously the basis for this attack, which I thought was supposed to be a discussion. I doubt anything I say at this point will satisfy this editor, but I wouldn't mind being wrong.

Out of curiosity Ravenswing, how old are you? CheckersBoard (talk) 22:15, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• How old am I? Let's start with "none of your damn business" and move on from that highly inappropriate question.

  Moving on, first off, it is scarcely "vitriol" to note that you've received many warnings from many editors for edit warring, poor citation practice, copyright violations, inserting original research into articles, and accusing editors who disagree with you of vandalism. Perhaps you're unaware how startling that record is, but you also claimed ignorance of how talk pages worked, despite having participated on talk pages in the past. Claiming persecution now -- after reverting, and being reverted by, numerous editors -- is not very convincing.

  With that being said, I stand by my statements in the various edit summaries. You are claiming the existence of a "group" that's the product of your own synthesis and original research. Your only citation for it is neologism from a source without proven reliability, and which defined a "group" which you carefully edited to include the sports you wanted to include, and leave out the ones you didn't. You've pushed the addition of ringette into this article on numerous occasions, a quite obscure minor sport on which article you've made over two thousand edits totaling over two hundred thousand bytes, making that article overbloated to an epic degree.

  "I can't figure out where it's best to group/put them together." There's a simple answer: you don't. Wikipedia is not a first publisher of original thought. If you'd like to write a book drawing parallels to sport played on ice skates, go for it. This is just not the venue for you to do so. Ravenswing 22:46, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

There's a reasonably lengthy section further down about women's hockey. If this material is appropriate—and I'm not expressing an opinion yea or nay on that issue—then I cannot see why it would not go in that area. There seems to be no reason to overburden the lead paragraphs with that level of detail; those paragraphs more appropriately provide a brief overview and introduction of the material that's going to be addressed in more detail further down. Arguably, placing extensive detail up front violates WP:UNDUE ("Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery."). 1995hoo (talk) 14:51, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Simply put, there is no "group" of four sports. They may share some characteristics, but that does not mean they are usually grouped together by sports writers or sport governing bodies. Ice hockey and bandy have a closer relationship to field hockey than to ringette, as far as I see it. 95.199.134.234 (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

𝗙𝗢𝗥 𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗨𝗦𝗦𝗜𝗢𝗡 𝗣𝗨𝗥𝗣𝗢𝗦𝗘𝗦 𝗢𝗡𝗟𝗬

𝗝𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝗹𝗲𝗮𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗧𝗟𝗗𝗥 𝘄𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗲𝘅𝘁 𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 (𝘁𝗼𝗼 𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗲):⁣ ⁣ Hi, 𝙣𝙤, 𝙄 𝙖𝙢 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙖𝙨𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙩𝙝𝙞𝙨 "𝙜𝙧𝙤𝙪𝙥𝙞𝙣𝙜" 𝙩𝙤 𝙗𝙚 𝙖𝙙𝙙𝙚𝙙 𝙖𝙜𝙖𝙞𝙣. Turns out there are two types of talk pages on wiki, one for articles and one for personal, but when someone messages either, it doesn't show up in my notification box, only edits do. Please don't resort to pettiness. I appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion.

This is off topic a bit because of a recent edit war, but just 𝘄𝗮𝗻𝘁 𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗲𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗼𝗿𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗽𝗲𝗼𝗽𝗹𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮 𝗵𝗲𝗮𝗱𝘀 𝘂𝗽 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗸𝗲𝗲𝗽 𝘀𝗼𝗺𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝗺𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝗮𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗳𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗮𝗻𝗶𝘇𝗲𝗱 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝗰𝗮𝘀𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗿𝘂𝗻 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗯𝗹𝗲𝗺𝘀 𝗜 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲:⁣ ⁣ Be careful of 𝗙𝗶𝗻𝗻𝗶𝘀𝗵 𝘁𝗿𝗮𝗻𝘀𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀: 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗯𝗮𝗹𝗹 (𝗸𝗮𝘂𝗸𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗽𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗼) 𝗶𝘀 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗼𝗰𝗸𝗲𝘆, 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆, 𝗼𝗿 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗸 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆. 𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗮 𝘀𝗲𝗽𝗮𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁. "Rinkball" in english also 𝙞𝙣𝙘𝙤𝙧𝙧𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙡𝙮 𝙩𝙧𝙖𝙣𝙨𝙡𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙨 (via Google) as "bowling", "basketball", "longball" or "distance long-ball". This is incorrect.

𝙄𝙛 𝙮𝙤𝙪 𝙨𝙚𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙬𝙤𝙧𝙙 "𝙆𝙖𝙪𝙠𝙖𝙡𝙤𝙥𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙤", 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩 𝙤𝙛 𝙧𝙞𝙣𝙠𝙗𝙖𝙡𝙡, 𝙣𝙤𝙩𝙝𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙚𝙡𝙨𝙚.⁣ ⁣ The winter team sports of 𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗼𝗰𝗸𝗲𝘆, 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗯𝗮𝗹𝗹, 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗲𝘁𝘁𝗲, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆, are connected physically to some degree though they can't be effectively "grouped", at least not here. Regardless of which sport you're looking at, 𝙥𝙡𝙖𝙮𝙚𝙧𝙨 𝙤𝙣𝙡𝙮 𝙪𝙨𝙚 𝙤𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙬𝙤 𝙩𝙮𝙥𝙚𝙨 𝙤𝙛 𝙞𝙘𝙚 𝙨𝙠𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙨:

- ice hockey skates (hockey and ringette, sometimes rinkball) - bandy skates (bandy, rink bandy, and mostly in rinkball)

Not sure about bandy and rinkball 𝗴𝗼𝗮𝗹𝗶𝗲𝘀, though hockey and ringette goalies do use the same type of goalie skate.⁣ ⁣ 𝗙𝗶𝗻𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗵𝗮𝘀 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗴𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗿𝗻𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗯𝗼𝗱𝗶𝗲𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗳𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗮𝗻𝗶𝘇𝗲𝗱 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝘀, but no other country does as far as I can find (maybe Sweden does though I don't know the current status of rinkball there).⁣

These four sports wouldn't be classified as 𝘄𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗺 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝘀 if:⁣ a. they were individual sports or disciplines⁣ b. they didn't use ice and require special equipment for athletes to use in order to play on this type of playing surface (ice skates).⁣ ⁣ Without these two factors, they would just be ball hockey, street hockey or dek hockey, floorball, floor hockey with pucks/disks/balls, etc., gym hockey, inline hockey, rink hockey (quad)...you get the idea.⁣ ⁣ 𝗧𝗛𝗘𝗦𝗘 𝗪𝗢𝗨𝗟𝗗 𝗡𝗢𝗧 𝗕𝗘 𝗪𝗜𝗡𝗧𝗘𝗥 𝗧𝗘𝗔𝗠 𝗦𝗣𝗢𝗥𝗧𝗦. Or they would be winter team sports like curling or ice stock (requires teams take turns, no ice skates of any kind, they use shoes) ⁣ Evidence for a relevant and interesting connection between these four shows up when learning about 𝙝𝙞𝙜𝙝 𝙥𝙚𝙧𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙢𝙖𝙣𝙘𝙚, 𝙬𝙞𝙣𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙩𝙚𝙖𝙢, 𝙢𝙪𝙡𝙩𝙞-𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩 𝙖𝙩𝙝𝙡𝙚𝙩𝙚𝙨, especially 𝗪𝗢𝗠𝗘𝗡 athletes in Finland, as I've been finding out.

If you start looking up elite female ice hockey players from Finland, it's not unusual to find that they have also played another one of these four sports, such as bandy and/or rinkball at some point (see wiki: "𝗥𝗶𝗶𝗸𝗮 𝗦𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲𝗻"). Some of these female Finnish athletes can and have also transferred/alternated between sports (See wikipedia: "𝗦𝘂𝘀𝗮𝗻𝗻𝗮 𝗧𝗮𝗽𝗮𝗻𝗶", played on both of Finland's national women's teams in both hockey and ringette. 𝘽𝙤𝙩𝙝 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙨 𝙪𝙨𝙚 𝙞𝙘𝙚 𝙝𝙤𝙘𝙠𝙚𝙮 𝙧𝙞𝙣𝙠𝙨 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙞𝙘𝙚 𝙝𝙤𝙘𝙠𝙚𝙮 𝙨𝙠𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙨).

In addition, when it comes to North America, a number of Canadian women athletes have backgrounds in 𝗯𝗼𝘁𝗵 𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗼𝗰𝗸𝗲𝘆 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗲𝘁𝘁𝗲, while most American women athletes by comparison only have an ice hockey background. On top of that, it turns out the first Canadian 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝘄𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗺 consisted almost entirely of elite amateur ringette players (𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗹𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘀𝗲𝗺𝗶-𝗽𝗿𝗼). Canada's 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗺 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗵𝗼𝗰𝗸𝗲𝘆 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗲𝗿𝘀. Meanwhile, both the USA 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘄𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗺𝘀 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗲𝗻𝘁𝗶𝗿𝗲𝗹𝘆 𝗺𝗮𝗱𝗲 𝘂𝗽 𝗼𝗳 𝗵𝗼𝗰𝗸𝗲𝘆 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗲𝗿𝘀. In recent years, one of the coaches for Sweden's national ringette team was a well-medaled 𝘄𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗯𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗲𝗿 (not sure if they ever played ringette). Plus, the UK is sending a 𝗚𝗿𝗲𝗮𝘁 𝗕𝗿𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗶𝗻 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝘄𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗺 to the Women's Bandy World Championships this year. Their head coach is a man who used to play 𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗳𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝗹𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹 𝗰𝗹𝘂𝗯𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝗦𝘄𝗲𝗱𝗲𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗡𝗼𝗿𝘄𝗮𝘆. Since the British team's players who are UK born can ice skate but didn't grow up playing bandy, rinkball or ringette, 𝙜𝙪𝙚𝙨𝙨 𝙬𝙝𝙞𝙘𝙝 𝙩𝙚𝙖𝙢 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙘𝙖𝙢𝙚 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢?⁣ ⁣ 𝗜𝗳 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝗹𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗮𝘁 𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝘁𝗵𝗹𝗲𝘁𝗲𝘀, I can see why you wouldn't make the connection, since this dynamic style of winter team sports participation occurs more often among the female population.⁣ ⁣ 𝗕𝗼𝘁𝘁𝗼𝗺 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 is, with the possible exception of the Sweden coaches, 𝙞𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙩𝙤𝙥 𝙞𝙣𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙣𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣𝙖𝙡 𝙖𝙩𝙝𝙡𝙚𝙩𝙚𝙨 𝙝𝙖𝙙𝙣'𝙩 𝙙𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙡𝙤𝙥𝙚𝙙 𝙞𝙘𝙚 𝙨𝙠𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙨𝙠𝙞𝙡𝙡𝙨 𝙚𝙛𝙛𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙫𝙚𝙡𝙮, 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙘𝙤𝙪𝙡𝙙 𝙣𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙖𝙘𝙝𝙞𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙙 𝙖𝙣𝙮 𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙚𝙫𝙖𝙣𝙩 𝙩𝙧𝙖𝙣𝙨𝙛𝙚𝙧𝙖𝙗𝙡𝙚 𝙨𝙠𝙞𝙡𝙡𝙨 𝙞𝙣 𝙖𝙣𝙤𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙧 𝙞𝙘𝙚 𝙨𝙠𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙚𝙖𝙢 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩. 𝘽𝙪𝙩 𝙨𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙖𝙡 𝙖𝙡𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙙𝙮 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚. Some skills are transferable from one sport to another, while others not so much, but mastering ice skating skills is an unavoidable requirement if playing any of these winter team sports, transferring between them, or competing in more than one at the same time or at different points.⁣ ⁣ 𝗔𝗻𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗻𝗼𝘁𝗲: 𝗠𝗘𝗡 𝗔𝗡𝗗 𝗪𝗢𝗠𝗘𝗡⁣ ⁣ There are 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗳𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗹𝗲𝗮𝗴𝘂𝗲𝘀 for men's bandy and men's ice hockey (paid pros), while women only play ice hockey professionally. There's 𝘀𝗲𝗺𝗶-𝗽𝗿𝗼 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗲𝘁𝘁𝗲 in Finland, Canada and reportedly Sweden as well, 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗶𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁'𝘀 𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗲 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘄𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆, and it doesn't appear there's anything for men or women in rinkball.⁣ ⁣ Amateur-wise, in top tier international competitions, 𝘄𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗻 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗲𝘁𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗼𝗰𝗸𝗲𝘆, 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆, 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗯𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗲𝘁𝘁𝗲 (𝟰 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝘀) while 𝗺𝗲𝗻 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗲𝘁𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗯𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘆, 𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗼𝗰𝗸𝗲𝘆, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗯𝗮𝗹𝗹 (𝟯).⁣ ⁣ 𝙍𝙞𝙣𝙜𝙚𝙩𝙩𝙚 𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙤𝙣𝙡𝙮 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩 𝙤𝙪𝙩 𝙤𝙛 𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝙛𝙤𝙪𝙧 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝙞𝙩𝙨 𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙩𝙚 𝙖𝙩𝙝𝙡𝙚𝙩𝙚𝙨 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙬𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙣 𝙞𝙣𝙨𝙩𝙚𝙖𝙙 𝙤𝙛 𝙢𝙚𝙣.⁣ ⁣ 𝗧𝗛𝗘𝗥𝗘! 𝗡𝗢 𝗕𝗢𝗢𝗞! 𝗧𝗛𝗔𝗧'𝗦 𝗙𝗢𝗥 𝗙𝗥𝗘𝗘! 𝗔𝘃𝗼𝗶𝗱 𝗲𝗿𝗿𝗼𝗿𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗺𝗶𝘀𝘂𝗻𝗱𝗲𝗿𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗻𝗴𝘀. I know no one ASKED, no one wanted it, but you won't find it anywhere else, (except for maybe USA Hockey). No page for this exists on wiki either, so can't give source material. Someone may need it eventually, who knows. So here it is.

This is about Wikipedia encyclopedia, it is not about which sports have the blessing of International Olympic Committee approval or which ones want it, that is not the criteria necessary for creating and developing articles about organized sport, it's merely one detail you can add to the article itself if it exists. 𝘼𝙣𝙙 𝙙𝙤𝙣'𝙩 𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙜𝙚𝙩! 𝙏𝙝𝙚𝙨𝙚 𝙛𝙤𝙪𝙧 𝙬𝙞𝙣𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙩𝙚𝙖𝙢 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙨 𝘿𝙊𝙉'𝙏 𝙗𝙚𝙡𝙤𝙣𝙜 𝙞𝙣 𝙖 𝙥𝙖𝙧𝙩𝙞𝙘𝙪𝙡𝙖𝙧 𝙜𝙧𝙤𝙪𝙥𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙤𝙛 𝙖𝙣𝙮 𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙙. CheckersBoard (talk) 02:36, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

• Urk. Yes, that's a TDLR wall of text; you're right there. That being said, I expect that editors working on -- and knowledgeable in -- bandy, ringette, rinkball, and the like can tend to their own knitting without those who don't and aren't. Since this page is for discussion of the Ice hockey article, discussion of those other sports isn't relevant here. Ravenswing 03:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

What's this "group"? is the name of this "talk". Therefore relevant. Sorry you can't figure this out. CheckersBoard (talk) 06:42, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

This was originally not part of the preceding thread. I started it as an independent thread specifically to discuss your repeated edits, for which you were eventually blocked.

WP:Bludgeoning us with a wall WP:NOTAFORUM text, and now incivility is not good way to come back from a block. Far from "not getting it," Ravenswing is completely correct. Your post is WP:NOTAFORUM. This is an article about ice hockey, not ringette, not bandy, and not rinkball. This talk page is to discuss content changes to this article. .Since you state "𝙣𝙤, 𝙄 𝙖𝙢 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙖𝙨𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙩𝙝𝙞𝙨 "𝙜𝙧𝙤𝙪𝙥𝙞𝙣𝙜" 𝙩𝙤 𝙗𝙚 𝙖𝙙𝙙𝙚𝙙 𝙖𝙜𝙖𝙞𝙣" then your whole post is off topic. Please WP:DROPTHESTICK. Meters (talk) 10:58, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

And please learn to indent your talk page posts. Meters (talk) 10:59, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Fighting the overbloat

... and once again, the article's getting bloated with all manner of tangential stuff, and is approaching 150 kilobytes. Folks, the object isn't to write a scholarly book on ice hockey; there are plenty of those, many of them cited. It's to write a thorough encyclopedia entry. WP:UNDUE enjoins us to consider the quantity of the text, and leave out what the article doesn't need. I'll start wielding the scalpel -- again -- but no one should be adding stuff to the article just because there hasn't been anything added in a day or three. Ravenswing 13:27, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Removed bloated, useless, redundant section on women's hockey. Someone can start a separate article if they think it is worth it. The two minor differences between the men's and women's game, checking and equipment, doesn't warrant this much attention. Glad to be of help. CheckersBoard (talk) 22:22, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

• Which you aren't being; you're being downright pointy, and your frequent disruption is getting into topic ban-country. Ravenswing 04:22, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
  • If I’m not mistaken, the article history shows there used to be a short section on women's hockey that CheckersBoard expanded into something much longer via multiple strings of edits beginning last August. 1995hoo (talk) 12:45, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Canadian Encyclopedia online may no longer be a valid source

It appears this entry dated June 25, 2020 in the Canadian Encyclopedia (online version) regarding the origin of ice hockey is already out of date, if not outright biased and wrong. [20] It might be best to avoid using it a source when dealing with ice hockey's origins until it is updated again:

"In 2008, the International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) officially declared that the first game of organized ice hockey was played in Montreal in 1875. Many also consider ice hockey’s first rules to have been published by the Montreal Gazette in 1877. However, research reveals that organized ice hockey/bandy games were first played on skates in England and that the earliest rules were also published in England. Canada made important contributions to the game from the 1870s on. By the early 20th century, "Canadian rules" had reshaped the sport."

"...and that the earliest rules were also published in England...", "made important contributions to the game", "...Canadian rules reshaped the sport..."? Wrong. Before ice hockey and bandy, a variety of related informal skating team games which preceded both sports were played in various parts of North America and Europe. The earliest rules for ice hockey were not published in England, those rules were the precursors to organized bandy which has its own codes/rules. Apparently somewhere in the 1920's bandy received the name it is known by now (when and by whom, I don't know) to eliminate confusion with ice hockey which had developed in North America. Bandy used a field of ice and a bandy ball, ice hockey used an ice rink and a puck, this is a big difference...even bandy goalnets are massive by comparison, it's a field sport on ice. "Canadian rules" did not "contribute" anything, Canadian rules did not "reshape the sport"...these developments marked the formal beginning of a new organized sport itself which is now ice hockey. Organized bandy is a separate sport still played today; in essence it "disappeared" from North America because it never formalized its codes there, that was the UK. So no, ice hockey didn't reshape or contribute squat, it's just a different sport. CheckersBoard (talk) 03:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

This page just seems desperate to redefine any early hockey as something other than Ice Hockey to clutch at the claim that Canadians invented it. The fact is the oldest Ice Hockey tournaments still running today started with English teams and English rules, its enough that Canada took it and ran with it and now it is quintessentially Canadian. There is no need to try and rewrite history. 82.6.32.114 (talk) 19:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Unsourced european origins

The whole history section claiming Ice Hockey had white european origins is largely unsourced and sloppy. It also did not inlude its black canadian origins. Can we get a discussion on this?

Pinging @Onorem: since they are on this page apparently. MayDay2099 (talk) 21:41, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Certainly. What "black canadian" origins do you fancy existed, and what are your sources backing up the same? Beyond that, far from being "largely unsourced," there are over FOUR DOZEN sources listed in the History section of the article. Did you just not read it? With that being said, erm ... the Colored Hockey League was founded decades after organized hockey play started in North America, and the degree to which it had little to no tangible effect on the progress of the sport comes from it having dropped so thoroughly into obscurity that most hockey historians had no idea it had ever existed. Ravenswing 06:48, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't "Fancy" having a level headed discussion with you Ravenswing.

All portions claiming european origins are unsourced and marked as citation needed. That is all. A source is needed or those areas or it should be removed, as this page is miles more important than a random video game page.

Colored hockey league is more sourced than the other stuff MayDay2099 (talk) 18:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

None of the sources you added on the Colored Hockey League claim that they invented the game of ice hockey. Ice hockey already existed when the league began. So the game did not originate with that league, lack of cited sources about its European origin notwithstanding. BilCat (talk) 19:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

That section is heavily sourced, which is what led me to question whether you'd actually read it. As far as the importance of this page goes, yes, those of us who've been editing and contributing to it for many years are aware. (For my part, I don't edit video game articles, and leave discussion of those to editors who care.) I realize that you are very new to Wikipedia, but you should understand the necessity of obtaining a consensus for such changes, as well as conducting a civil discussion on your issues. Ravenswing 01:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I can count 5 seperate "Citation needed" blurbs and many of them start and end in the areas claiming the sport to be of european medieval origin. This claim is ridiculously unsourced for a page of this importance and should not be there if you cannot source it.

Its recorded european occurances can be in the page and does not require the claim it is purely european origin for said occurances to be acceptable

If such a source exists, or is already there, I suggest you fix it yourself since you're going against my suggestion on those very grounds.

And opening this discussion in and of itself is an attempt to gather consensus for my suggested changes. I have no idea why your holding that over me like I am breaking any rules when I am following your rules. MayDay2099 (talk) 04:28, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Good grief: let me make this as simple as I can for you. Take a look at Ice_hockey#Name. You might notice that the various statements of precursors in that section have five different sources (if you exclude the 1527 Statute of Galway, which can be looked up independently). You could then take a look at Ice_hockey#Precursors. Seven of the sources there refer to European origins. You might also look at the two 17th century Dutch paintings to the right hand side, depicting hockey-like play. Ravenswing 10:00, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

This doesn't rectify the many unsourced portions, which is the only issue I had. You are trying to turn this into something else.

Like I said, this discussion in and of itself is me gathering consensus. More people can come to talk if they please. If you cannot source the unsourced sections, and nobody else objects with a reason that either makes sense to me, or enough of the other folks here, I will either remove or heavily edit them to reflect what is sourced. MayDay2099 (talk) 19:00, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Split history section into History of ice hokey

That section is quite long. I suggest we summarize it here, while copying the current text to a dedicated subarticle. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support creation of a separate article for history. A number of other sports have separate articles for history (ex. History of basketball) or even history in a certain country (ex. History of football in Brazil). The suggested split would also help to address the bloat of this article. Spitzmauskc (talk) 20:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)