Talk:Iconography of Shiva temples in Tamil Nadu

Comments

• The scope of this article is confusing. This article is writing as a general commentary of Shiva Temples of Tamil Nadu, discussing iconography as well as Architecture. I suggest you move this article to Shiva Temples of Tamil Nadu, if you want to write a general commentary, (see WP:REQMOVE for process) and move Shiva Temples of Tamil Nadu to List of Shiva Temples of Tamil Nadu (But that will make the job difficult: festivals, architecture, worship needs added) OR you can concentrate only on the iconography: deities and sculptures
• Inaccurate: "parivara (consorts)" A parivara devata is any deity related to the principal deity eg. Ganesha
• Inconsistency of spelling and name: Parvathi/Parvati, Chandikeswarar/Chandesa, Bhairavar/Bhairava, Vinayagar/Ganesha
• Wrong links: Annamaya kosha is not related to Annamacharya, but to Kosha. Anandamaya kosha has nothing with the Buddhist Ananda
• "Symbolism behind the structure of a Shiva Temple" and "Common Terminologies" is more related to Architecture
• "Common Terminologies" in terms of iconographies will be Moola murti, Utsava murti, parshva devata (subordinate deity), parivara devata, avarana devata (ones in Prakaram). I don't know if all these apply to Tamil temple. Please check.
• Stick to images and examples of Tamil Shiva temples. Not followed eg.: Tirumala Venkateswara Temple, Parvati from Andhra temple, "sometimes known as Bhairo or Bhairon or Bhairadya or Bheruji (In Rajasthan)"
• Main Deities and Other Images give general comments about origins and details of the deity, rather than iconography. Eg:
  • As far as know, Bhairava at least 3 sub-forms, apart from the Bhairava main forms in Tamil iconography. The 3 forms - which are not discussed in detail - are Brahma-shiracheta murti (not so popular, but present - Shiva cutting Brahma's head); Bhikshatana-murti (very popular in iconography - the mendicant wandering to cleanse himself of the Brahmahatya sin) and Kankala-murti (popular and similar to Bhikshatana, but clothed - Shiva having the corpse of Vishvasena).
  • Sapthamatha: "the sapthamtha is rarely represented in the dancing form". What the common repesentation: seated with Ganesha and Vinadhara/Virabhadra Shiva? Narasimhi is irrelevant in a Tamil setting
  • Durgai: How is "The name is made of Sanskrit dur- = "with difficulty" (compare Greek δυσ- (dys-)) and gā ("come", "go"). The buffalo sacrifice depiction transposes into ritual Durga's feat killing the buffalo demon" related to iconography? Is she really depicted with a tiger in Tamil Nadu?
• Popular forms missed: Uma-Maheshvara, Ravana-anugraha, Tripurantaka, Ardhanarishvara, Kalyanasundara, Shankara-Narayana, Gajatanka, Sharabha, Kalantaka, Kirata, Kama-dahana, Ekapada, Chandisha-anugraha, Vishnu-anugraha, Gangadhara, Vrishabha-arudha/antika et al

--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 15:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

• All the Shiva temples in Tamilnadu have Shivalingam, Parvathi, vinayagar, Muruga, navagrahas, dwajasthamba, durgai, dakshinamoorthy and chandekeswarar - all other deities are very specific(like Bikshandana is common only in Chidambaram and temples around). I have tried to cover the origin, religious significance and the basic architectural elements. If we cover without the architecture or split the icons, it actually doesn't provide the full picture. The forms/names may be different for the primary four, but they dont depict an avatar as in Vishnu temple or variant forms(like Narayana, Rangantha etc.). The gamut is so huge to emcompass - i have tried to present the most common features of the temples.
  • A dwajastambha is an architectural item, rather than an iconographical one.
  • About Bhikshatana, Rao, T.A. Gopinatha (1916). Elements of Hindu Iconography as well as Dehejia, Vidya (2009). The Body Adorned: Dissolving Boundaries Between Sacred and Profane in India's Art both talk about Bhikshatana images are seen in almost every Shaiva temple as an avarana-devata as well as on pillars, gopurams and utsava murtis. Ardhanarishvara, Tripuratanka, Ravana-anugraha etc. are also popular in sculpture.
  • The central problem in allsections is that the background (the origin, religious significance) overshadows and overweights (see WP:UNDUE) the iconography (which is completely missed in some sections): Eg.
    • In Parvathi, mentioning her to be the consort of Shiva and mother of Ganesha and Skanda is enough. Her association with Mahavidyas or Sati is irrelevant to a Tamil setting. There is hardly any discussion about her iconography. "Parvati, when depicted alongside Shiva, generally appears with two arms, but when alone, she is shown having four or eight arms, and astride a tiger or lion." the 4/8 arms part is hardly relevant to the Shaiva Tamil discussion, Parvati is just a two-armed consort of Shiva. The article also does not discuss her different forms across shrines, eg. a Meenakshi is noteworthy.
    • Similarly Skanda (isn't the name Murugan more popular) goes on about his many names, which is unnecessary, but never mentions that he has 12 arms or holding a spear, which is important to iconography.
    • Similarly, Ganesha has an elephant head, 4 arms, big belly, holds parashu/ankusha/pasha/sweets is missed. No discussion of iconography.
    • No discussion of the Lingam's size/shape/material used to build it.
    • Lingothbhavar: No discussion of Brahma/hamsa, Vishnu/Varaha, the 4-arms of Shiva holding a parashu/mriga. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:38, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
• Utsavar, moolavar etc. are common to any temple. Unlike Vishnu temples of Tamil nadu, where utsavars take a different name, siva temples have the same name as the moolavar deity. I have briefly touched upon utsava deities, but they don't take much importance like the moolavars.

  No, they are not same. Shaiva temples have many bronze processional images or utsava murtis, for eg. Mylapore has utsava murtis for Seated Shiva, Shiva on a horse, Bhikshatana, Adhikara Nandi, Vrishabha-vahana, nayanars. Meenakshi temple have Ravananugraha utsava murti, Somaskanda, Shiva-Parvati on horse, on Nandi (Vrishbha-arudha). --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

• Sapthamatha is usually in the sitting posture - Brahmi, Maheswari, Koumari, Varahi, Indrani, Chamundi and Jyestadevi are the seven in Tamil temples.

  You are missing Vaishnavi. Jyestha is not a matha. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

• Durgai is depicted with tiger in some temples, but mostly it is four-handed stand over buffalo pose.
• There is no popular form in Tamil temples other than lingam for Siva. Leaving temples at Kanchi(<10 temples), which have Shiva deptiction, there is no other specific form(names may be different though).

  Lingam is the most popular form worshipped as a central deity, but I am talking these popular iconographical forms which are seen on gopurams, pillars, walls and also prakaram deities (avarana devata).--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

I will correct the other common points suggested. S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 17:39, 5 November 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt

Additional comments

1. The same concept in Shiva temple building is also followed in Sri Lanka. For example Munneswaram temple, Koneswaram temple, Tennavaram temple, Ketheeswaram temple,Naguleswaram. So a mention of that would be appropriate.

1. What about the countless non agamic village temples to countless village gods who are sometimes conflated with Shiva such as Vairavar,Muneeswarar and also direct Shiva temples maintained by village priests without pretense of Agamic rituals? Maybe a mention of that would make this article more comprehensive. Kanatonian (talk) 15:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The above comments are included. Ssriram mt (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)ssriram_mt

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