Talk:Ida (film)

Cursed soldiers

The idea that Wanda prosecuted the Cursed soldiers is interesting, if true, but I didn't see anything in the film or the cited reviews to indicate that. The Cursed soldiers were a military opposition and the Communist state would have to prosecute them, or kill them.

I thought she was prosecuting people who were just swept into the political repression or paranoia of the Stalinist and post-Stalinist times. That's a more morally ambiguous and disturbing activity. --Nbauman (talk) 02:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

P.S. If Wanda was modeled on Helena Wolińska-Brus, Brus didn't prosecute the Cursed soldiers, who opposed the Communist state, she prosecuted members of other anti-Nazi resistance groups, like the Home Army and Władysław Bartoszewski. It's not morally ambiguous to prosecute your enemies. It is morally ambiguous to prosecute your friends. --Nbauman (talk) 02:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

You raise good points. I'm not sure who put in the link to the Cursed Soldiers, but I preserved it when revising the plot description. The armed resistance to the communist regime would have contributed to an environment that led to show trials and executions, but there is no suggestion of this in the film itself. I will revise it again, but not for another day or so. Cheers, Easchiff (talk) 13:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

There are some things that are not explicitly stated in movies, that everyone in the original audience would know, and that are essential for understanding the movie. Because of WP:NOR, you can't just add them to a plot description in Wikipedia. However, you can add them to the plot description if you can find a WP:RS that says so, and the New Yorker[1] says so:

In the two years after the war, Communists took over the government under the eyes of the Red Army and the Soviet secret police, the N.K.V.D. Many Poles who were prominent in resisting the Nazis were accused of preposterous crimes; the independent-minded were shot or hanged. In the movie, none of this is stated, but all of it is built, so to speak, into the atmosphere....

--Nbauman (talk) 19:54, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for this help. I've revised those sentences, with a quote from Scott's review, and removed your tag and the link to the Cursed Soldiers. The article could use more material on the historical allusions. Few US viewers will know the history that Denby notes. Probably the best place for noting the allusions is the plot section, with (as you suggest) each such claim being backed by a reliable source. Easchiff (talk) 05:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Great expansion work BTW. Thanks! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:44, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Lede quotes from Scott

Ziel substituted some different quotations from Scott than the one I'd used previously in the lede. Ziel had discovered that the citation to Scott's May 2014 review did not contain the quote. At some point, 2 different citations to Scott got pared down to one; the original quote was from Scott's December 2014 review. I have reflected on the new quotes a bit, which I think are good selections from Scott's May review. However, I do prefer the original quote, and I've restored it. I believe its use gives the less dark impression of the film. My view is that we should be careful not to give readers the impression that this is a depressing article - for fear that they'll stop reading right at the lede. I think it's a very good article, and I'd like to see readers look through the whole thing. Cheers, Easchiff (talk) 01:42, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I do not understand your point about the necessary cheerfulness of the article. What I would like to underline though is that contrary to what is stated in the quote you propose, the movie does not deal directly with the events you mention; precisely, those event are suggested and not made explicit (something that the quote I put there – not from Scott though, but from D. Denby – makes obvious). I understand that you prefer the original quote, yet this quote is misleading and should not be there; it comes from a superficial description, not a proper review, addressing not "Ida" as such, but many other films. Thank you for your understanding. ziel & 09:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

OK. I now understand your perspective, and you did a good job writing it into the lede. The talk page is the better place for these more serious discussions. If other editors wish to comment, the text before you made your changes was: "Called a 'compact masterpiece' and an 'eerily beautiful road movie', the film has also been said to 'penetrate the darkest, thorniest thickets of Polish history, reckoning with the crimes of Stalinism and the Holocaust.'" Best, Easchiff (talk) 11:38, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Red or Bloody? Translations from the Polish

I have seen the film Ida. I remembered that at one of the scenes when Wanda Gruz meets Ida, she says in Polish: Krwawa Wanda - to ja! (Bloody Wanda - it's me!) Then I read the article in Wikipedia in English and I learned about the "Red Wanda". Now, to any adult Polish native speaker, the word "krwawa" (feminine of the adjective "krwawy") cannot be translated as "red", no way! (A child, a non-native Polish speaker or someone who can not see the reason for something being red might simply say "czerwona", which is the word to mean "red", but this is hardly possible for the character in the context.)

I found the issue important to understand the plot. At the moment, the Polish-speaking audience receives a dramatically different message than the English-speaking audience. "Krwawa" means "Bloody", like Mary the Queen of England who killed her opponents and earned the sobriquet. Another possible word could be "Bloodthirsty". "I'm the cruel bloodthirsty beast, they even called me that", one might render the meaning of what she says. Calling her "Red" shifts the audience attention from "Blood" and her cruelty to her being the member of a leftiest organization, which makes the translation plausible but misunderstood by the English-speaking audience.

So I made this correction in brackets in the section Plot: (the literal meaning of her Polish sobriquet was Bloody or Bloodthirsty Wanda rather than Red). The correction was reversed with a request for a quote. The only quote I can provide is a dictionary. For example, the PWN-Oxford English-Polish Dictionary (Wielki Słownik Angielsko-Polski) provides a thorough explanation. Do you think it will be a satisfactory qoutation to support the case?--C. Trifle (talk) 00:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking up this issue here. Please be patient with the need for references, etc.. I'm sure that your translation is accurate. The problem: the subtitles for the film translate it as "Red Wanda", which has been repeated in many published sources in English. So the film's subtitle editors - likely including Pawlikowski, whose English is perfect - made a choice that disagrees with yours. Since "original research" by Wikipedia editors isn't permitted, an editor can't just write his disagreement with their choice based on his/her own authority. One possible compromise occurs to me: add a new reference that reads: <ref>"Red Wanda" is the English subtitle translation of the Polish "????". The literal translation is "!!!!"; see {{cite book | ....}}</ref> .

While you're at it, could you translate the titles of the citations to Polish language sources? They are unintelligible to those of us who don't speak the language. Cheers, Easchiff (talk) 03:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I have read the reviews. The titles are explained below plus the contents in brief. The current numbers of the references are given. I did enjoy my reading, although my opinion was in some cases different from those expressed by the writers. One should not forget that those were given before the film won the Academy Award.

Ref. 30 Wigura, Karolina (26 November 2013). "Dlaczego "Ida" tak gniewa. Częściowe podsumowanie dyskusji o filmie Pawła Pawlikowskiego" (in Polish). Kultura Liberalna. "Why "Ida" makes you angry. A tentative summary of the discussion about Paweł Pawlikowski's film." Contents in brief: "Ida" can only be considered complete with its reviews and discussion. Three issues are considered: esthetics-politics, Christianizing the Jewish Holocaust and whether "Ida" indeed closes the discussion on Polish-Jewish relations in the XXth century.

Ref. 31 "Idzie po nas Ida czyli film zrobiony z nienawiści. Przypominamy poruszający felieton prof. Aleksandra Nalaskowskiego z tygodnika "w Sieci"" (in Polish). w Sieci. Retrieved 27 December 2014. The first part of the title is a pun. To explain the pun, one should write another article indeed, as its effect in the original language is that two or more idiomatic expressions "ring the bell". Translating idiomatic expression into another language rarely gives the same immediate effect as in the langauge of the original. However, as Wikipedia is a free Encyclopedia and its aim is sharing information and increasing general knowledge, I'll try to do my best to improve idiom translation, although I doubt if there will be found those few chosen who will be patient enough to read the below and gifted enough to meet the challenge of idiom translation that requires considerable intelectual effort from the reader not to mention the writer.

The pun is based on the usage of the word "Idzie", which might be the dativus of Ida, if Ida is interpreted as a noun, which it is because it is a name. However, it can also be considered as a verb, and to be precise it is the third person singular present tense of the verb that basically means in Polish "to go", but in expressions it has different meanings. You can say "iść po kogoś/kimś" (to come to take sb/sth away/for yourself / to walk/tread on sb.) The first part makes you think of several expressions: "Co Idzie po nas?" (Do we matter to Ida?/Are we really neccessary for Ida?) OR "Co idzie po nas?" (What is coming to take us (away)?/to do sth with us)OR "Ida is coming after us" (In the future: we'll perish and Ida will come and thrive...) ; /Ida is walking on/treading on us (Physically: we are lying on the floor and she is walking onto the bodies.). So, a wide choice of meanings of the first part of the sentence is offered.

The second part of the sentence "...czyli film zrobiony z nienawiści" means "...which means the Film Made of Hatred." The article by Professor Aleksander Nalaskowski, published formerly in "w Sieci" weekly, is republished in wPolityce.pl. Contents in brief: The answer given to the pun is that "Ida" is going to collect an Oscar, which is achieved by distorting, humiliating and "uglifying" Poland. The odds are huge that "Ida" will win because the film sells the best Polish export product which is anti-Semitism. The world loves to accuse us of anti-Semitism and adores us when we do it ourselves. The best actor in the film is the Polish ugliness. The nation living in this awful country is as dirty as the country is. The film explains nothing but tells you clearly "You are the scum of the earth". There is no sympathy for Jews in the film, no good feelings for the "Chosen People". The Jewish question is only a pretext to show the ugliness of Poland. The audience feels properly humiliated by the author's emotional problems and the dirt that is being pushed onto the audience, so if you need this kind of therapy, enjoy. The writer did not order a therapy but he simply paid for the ticket, so he did not consider himself happy with what we saw. The Academy however will almost certainly appreciate the effort of the film author's and award the film. This will facilitate extending the film author's activity into other fields, which as one might expect will be such as e.g. priests' pedophilia, homosexuality etc.

Ref. 33 Janicka, Elżbieta (25 November 2013). "Janicka: Ogon, który macha psem". Krytyka Polityczna (in Polish). "Janicka: The tail that wags the dog." Contents in brief: The film is based on the choice of the commonest anti-Semitic storytelling patterns. Is it possible to have anti-Semitism without anti-Semites? If the author wants good, why is the outcome as usual? If everything seems transparent to everybody, why do people behave as if they were forced to do things they do not want to do? The problem is analyzed in terms of cultural inertia.

Ref. 34 Rojek, Zofta. ""Ida" pełna antysemickich stereotypów? Krytyka najnowszego filmu Pawlikowskiego". NaTemat.pl (in Polish). "Ida full of anti-Semitic stereotypes. Criticism of the latest film by Pawlikowski" Contents in brief: The writer reviews the main points of the plot and qoutes the critical comments by Helena Dartner of the Jewish Historical Institute in Warsaw. According to Dartner, Pawlikowski delivers the product most desired by the majority of Poles, who would love to hear an authoritative confirmation that a Jewish woman trying to enforce the Communist law in Poland was indeed a whore and an alcoholic. The heroine Ida is lacking internal life. Dartner's opinions are contrasted with Pawlikowski's remark and with Rojek's own opinions which are more favorable for the film.

Would you like to introduce whatever seems useful into the article? I mean, they could be introduced into the article or into the reference sections - but perhaps that's too long, so I'm not quite sure what to do with it. OR they might just stay here on the talk page. --C. Trifle (talk) 20:02, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

translation upgraded--C. Trifle (talk) 10:27, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. I've transferred just the title translations to the main article. For the Nalaskowski article, I've added the author to the citation, but I didn't know what short title you wanted to use. I realize it's complicated - it gives me sympathy for the difficulties of making the subtitles. If you look at the citation itself in "edit mode", you'll see there's a field in the citation where you can put a translation.

Interested readers will find your thoughtful summaries of the Polish language articles on this talk page. Very short summaries of the articles might be included later with the citations themselves. Thanks again for your quick work - Easchiff (talk) 10:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I have chosen "Ida is treading you into mud to win the Award, or the Film Made of Hatred". If you think it can be improved, please, change it. Thanks. --C. Trifle (talk) 12:00, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Good to see your edit; I think that title wasn't very easy to translate! Easchiff (talk) 00:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)