Talk:Imbolc

Recent revert of "...large scale deletion"

I recently edited the article to restore some of the refs, structure and focus on the historical and current Gaelic cultural celebrations of Imbolc. Spanglej reverted those changes wholesale. [Here] is the version after my edits. [Here] is the version after Spanglej's revert.

The focus on the Gaelic cultural celebration is in keeping with its origins and current observance in Gaelic lands. The article is not (and should not become) a catch-all for any celebration around this time of year. Wiccan and related Neopagan views on the holiday were dealt with in subsections because they are secondary to the origins. Wiccans/Neopagans might not think so but since some of their practice is an amalgam of influences other than the historical/current Gaelic cultural holiday, it seems best to be very specific. The current version of the article dissolves clear articulation of specifics into a rather muddled blend of all things being equal. This is not the case and it does not improve the article to, for instance, change the section "St. Bridgid's Day" to "Bridgid" when the refs/sources are quite specific to St. Bridgid's Day.

Although the version I ended with had problems (for example, the lede was too long and unfocused), I still think it was an improvement on the intermingling of unreferenced genero-Wiccan additions throughout the text. So I'm reverting back to my last version and will then work on smoothing out the problems I see in the article. Cheers, Pigman☿/talk 15:35, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

While it's fine for people to add reliable, relevant, sourced content about the Gaelic festival, I have to agree that the changes Pigman was correcting had muddied the article. Agree strongly that this is not an article about "Things that happen around Feb. 1". It's about Imbolc, which is a Gaelic festival. The delineated sections near the bottom, which touch on Neopagan obvervances, should be kept brief and clear, rather than be merged into the body. Any further expansion on the Neopagan observances belong in those Neopagan articles, especially when they diverge from the Gaelic festival. Also, "Celtic" is not the same as "Gaelic". Pigman was correcting this misnaming. This was a stable, well-done article before those recent changes. It could and can use improvement, but for the most part, the earlier version (with the delineated sections and the proper naming re - "Gaelic" vs "Celtic") is the one we should work from. Slàn, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Gŵyl Fair y Canhwyllau

Looking over the Gŵyl Fair y Canhwyllau article, and this article, and the fact that we're talking P-Celtic for one and Q-Celtic for the other, I think it's important that we don't just say Gŵyl Fair y Canhwyllau is the "Welsh Imbolc" and lump it in with the Gaelic. I'm going to adjust some things to clarify that Gŵyl Fair y Canhwyllau is a related festival. Additionally, if we can't find evidence for pre-Christian Welsh observance, Gŵyl Fair y Canhwyllau may be primarily related to Christian Candlemas, not Gaelic Imbolc. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

yes, but is it a related festival? Gŵyl Fair y Canhwyllau is just the Welsh term for Candlemas. The question is therefore, is there a relation (or identity) of Imbolc with Candlemas?

Imbolc is St. Bridid's Day, celebrated on 1 February. Candlemas is on 2 February. The actual Irish name of Candlemas is Lá Fhéile Muire na gCoinneal, not Imbolc.

When I google Imbolc and Candlemas, I get lots of Wiccan literature talking of "Imbolc/Candlemas", "Imbolc or Candlemas", but so far no serious reference that explains that the two are related. This needs better references. --dab (𒁳) 15:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

St. Brigid's cross

Not a mention in this article or Wiki. link to Brigid's cross. Some article this is!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.53.121.124 (talk) 20:53, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Brigid's cross seems to be a Christian symbol. Imbolc is primarily a pagan festival. Span (talk) 23:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Again quite true however this page is quite obviously hijacked and wikipedia has decided that a national holiday for St. Brigid's Day must be vandalised with a bunch of inane neo pagan nonsense 37.228.227.112 (talk) 00:27, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I think you may be looking for the Brigid of Kildare article? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 01:38, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiccan section

In the Wiccan section the article states that Imbolc's association with Brigid and hence the Goddess is a reason for rites that are specific to women on this day within Wicca. Although sourced .This is completely erroneous. Perhaps this is true in Diannic Wicca but not Wicca as a whole. If it were true then Wicca would be exclusively for women which it isn't as the Goddess features prominently in much of Wicca. Are we to also believe that full moons because of their association with the Goddess are reserved exclusively for females to the exclusion of males. This is inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathunehor (talk • contribs) 00:20, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Southern Recognition

These celebrations are not sate based but instead are based on the seasons and moon cycles. As such, the northern hemisphere has an opposite set of dates for the Wheel of the Year, than in the south. I think this should be noted somewhere, but I don't know how to proceed. An assist?124.171.201.37 (talk) 05:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

"Christians observe it as the feast day of St Brigid, especially in Ireland"

Well, no, Christians don't observe Imbolc. They observe St Brigid's feast day on the same day. If the article wants to claim that Christians have replaced Imbolc with St Brigid, then find a source and make the claim. Or if the article wants to claim that Christians really do celebrate Imbolc, find a source, because right now that statement is unsupported. And to say "especially in Ireland" is egregious - who outside of Ireland has ever heard of Imbolc? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 17:51, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Agreed — this passage is mis-worded, though the "linkage" between Imbolc and St Brigid's feast day is complex. See The Goddess Obscured by Pamela Berger, p. 71. (Referenced in the article on Brigid of Kildare. I feel compelled to point out that Imbolc is indeed known outside of Ireland. In fact, I'm attending an Imbolc celebration in New Orleans next week! --Editor B (talk) 18:37, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

As a Pagan High Priest, an honorary doctorate of divinity, and as a devout Pagan, I can in fact state clearly, that people outside of Ireland who are Pagan certainly observe Imbolc if it is in their path.

What the linkage is best between for christians' is the Feast of St. Brigid / St. Brigid Day to Candlemas. Both of these holidays were created in the defiance and hopeful erasure of Imbolc, and they are both related because they are christian observances.

We have to remember in the the academic sense, Paganism is void of Abrahamism, so no honest educated Pagan would observe St. Brigid Day or Candlemas in an academic sense.

I agree that Imbolc should be separated because this is an article of near-pure Abrahamic pandering convolution. Odin Wynd (talk) 21:11, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Biddy's night?

Just wondering if the section on Biddy's night could be cited a bit better, and maybe trimmed down? From what I can see, the festival was only revived this year, but the organizers are insinuating that they are reviving an ancient celtic tradition (as paraphrased by [1] and [2] for example), but the only historical mention I can find is in reference to a catholic tradition honouring St. Brigid ([3] and [4]). Additionally, the text is entirely lifted from the festival website, so I wonder if it should even be in there at all. Any thoughts? Wasechun tashunka^HOWL_TRACK 18:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

New introduction section

I made a new introduction section which allows readers to first consider the historical evidence for the existence of Imboc. Aerchasúr (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Imbolc historicity

This article is very carelessly written as if we are dealing with a single religious phenomenon. In reality we are dealing with three religious events, the hypothesised pre christian festival of Imbolc which we only know from a single line in Cormac's Glossary, the modern neo-pagan festival of imbolc and the christian festival of Brigid's day. These are three very different events and the article doesn't make that clear. It is littered with conflating the three and using the terms interchangeably. . For example at one point it say From the 18th century to the mid 20th century, many accounts of Imbolc or St Brigid's Day were recorded by folklorists and other writers. They tell us how it was celebrated then, and shed light on how it may have been celebrated in the past.[2][18] But this isnt true. Imbolc died out 1600 years ago. Not the mid 20th cen. All we know about the original pagan festival of Imbolc that it marked the start of spring. We dont know its date, its associations, its traditions, if it featured rush crosses, if it was public celebration or a low-key private affair. There are various reconstructed aspects that people theorise characterise the event but they all come from the folk christian traditions recorded hundreds of years after paganism ceased extence. In various places in the article Imbolc is carelessly written when we should acknowledge that we are talking about folk christian traditions. Aerchasúr (talk) 19:16, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Split Imbolc page from St Brigid's day page?

Bastun recently edited out mentions of St Brighid's day on this page. It got me thinking this is a problem as currently there is no page for St Brigid's day. This creates the erroneous impression that that the two religious events are the same thing which has to be countered. So is everyone supportive for a demerging?Aerchasúr (talk) 09:32, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

St Brigid's Day and Imbolc are two entirely different things, so no objection here. The procedure you need to follow to establish consensus and carry out the split properly is outlined here: WP:SPLITTING. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Imbolc is most certainly intertwined with St. Brigid/St. Brigid's Day, and has been for hundreds of years. Maybe concentrate on the article you're talking about creating, rather than removing material from this article? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:01, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree to splitting this subject. St. Brigid's Day and Candlemas have a true linkage. Those observances were created to erase and convert people from Paganism, to erase Imbolc. This article is very convoluted and very pandering to Abrahamic talking points. I think it should be separated for better representation of all faiths involved. Odin Wynd (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I think this article gives too much focus to paganism as there's no mentions in early Irish literature of Imbolc being a religious festival and the link between St Brigid's Day and Imbolc is only a theory and is the association between Imbolc and the pagan goddess Brigid. This article should be split though I agree. 92.51.249.119 (talk) 02:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

At least one study has argued that 'imbolc' shouldn't actually refer to anything pagan at all, but rather a Christian festival of purification on February 2nd. See Bealtaine and Imbolg (Oimelc) in Cormac’s Glossary by Éimear Williams in Studia Celtica 2005. In so much as it's a neo-Pagan festival, I'd argue they should be split too. Sionnachnaréaltaí (talk) 12:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Imbolc And Saint Brigid's Day should have distinct articles. 84.203.148.201 (talk) 21:50, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Observance Timing Variance: 1974 broke the wheel

I wanted to Discuss timing in concerns to Pagans. While Imbolc is observed by many Pagans, the timing reflected in this article is not consistent with any Pagan observance before 1974. Imbolc is astrologically a cross-quarter observance. The date of Imbolc drifts slightly from year to year because the date is actually based on what is now known as Solar Ecliptic Longitude, it is not a Gregorian Calendar date and instead the position of the sun in the sky relative to positional observance thereof on Earth. This is what the neolithic sites including Loughcrew were measuring.

In the Northern Hemisphere, Imbolc is when the Sun is at 15° Aquarius - 315° Solar Ecliptic Longitude, in the Southern Hemisphere it is when the Sun is at 15° Leo - 135° Solar Ecliptic Longitude.

In the Northern Hemisphere for the year 2023, Imbolc is on Feb 5th by this omitted fact.

I think we need to take into consideration that the 1974 "Wheel of the Year" made popular by Aidan A. Kelly is very convoluted, appropriated christian dates, and was not following traditional Pagan timing in many regards.

While some Pagans observe according to his timing, not all Pagans do. I think this article needs to be more inclusive of the archaic timing as many Pagan religious institutions still go by the timing that was commonplace before 1974. Odin Wynd (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

1974?! What?! Pagans Celts didn't follow a Greco-Roman zodiac, so not sure at all what you mean by Aquarius and Leo here. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

You've no0 idea what acient Celts may have observed as a calendar because they did not write it down. 37.228.227.112 (talk) 00:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

You might find this version of the wheel of the year more accurate with regard to the dates of the Celtic festivals

Ccferrie (talk) 10:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Name of the page

Why is the name of the page Imbolc rather than St. Brigid's Day when most Irish people (and afaik everywhere else) would refer to it as the latter? 0123Qwerty3210 (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Uou may be looking for the Brigid of Kildare article, but Imbolc absolutely is celebrated, and not just by pagans. See, for example, here, here, here, here, here and here. Oh, and the government ministerial take, here. Oh, and my search deliberately excluded non-Irish sites; there were plenty of them, too. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:17, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that was what 0123Qwerty3210 was objecting to. Of course it exists and is celebrated. The difference is whether the term St Brigid's day or Imbolc is used more often, and here I think it is more ambiguous. JJLiu112 (talk) 19:16, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Date

The article says Imbolc is on 1 Feb, but sources online say it can be on 2 Feb some years,[5][6][7] or even later,[8], or earlier,[9] or that it continues over two days 1-2 Feb. [10] (Whereas St Brigid's Day is always just 1 Feb.) I've not been through the sources carefully, but can we consider revising the article to reflect these complications? Bondegezou (talk) 10:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The sources you give are not useable. The traditional date of Imbolc and St Brigid's Day has always been 1 February. The article already notes that some neopagans might celebrate it on another date near to this, and that the public holiday is usually on the first Monday in February. This is like how St Patrick's Day is always 17 March but the public holiday is on the nearest Monday, or how Halloween is always 31 October but people might celebrate on the nearest weekend. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 10:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

As I said, I've not been through the sources carefully, but it seems to me there is more to unpack around the date and the relationship between Imbolc and Brigid than the lead text you prefer captures. Looking in the academic literature, doi:10.7592/YBBS3.05 looks useful here, but requires a deep dive! I note doi:10.2752/175169610X12754030955931 and doi:10.1080/20440243.2021.1898807 both just go for 2 Feb. Bondegezou (talk) 11:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

There are countless sources giving 1 February as the date of Imbolc and St Brigid's Day. We shouldn't give so much weight to the handful of sources that say other dates, most of which are only about certain neopagan celebrations and astronomical alignments. But your first source does indeed look useful. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 12:06, 1 February 2024 (UTC)