Talk:India Willoughby

Requested move 12 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved per WP:G6. Launchballer 18:00, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

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India Willoughby (journalist) → India Willoughby – Dab not needed. Unreal7 (talk) 12:44, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. Uncontroversial technical request. India Willoughby has been a redirect to Celebrity Big Brother (British series 21)#India Willoughby since January 2018. Her article was created just over three months ago. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

References to Willoughby's former name

In respect of Wiki's current policy on using trans people's dead names, (to not do so unless the person's pre-transition work is notable in its own right), I have edited this article to remove references to her former name and gender identity aside from in the single line in which it is explicitly relevant. Given that her pre-transition career is the subject of only one sentence, I question whether, had she not transitioned, there would be an article on her at all. As such, given her notability has pretty clearly increased since her transition, having her dead name appear so prominently in the Article Lead and in the biography box seems disproportionate. I apologise for not having made this case more clearly with my prior edits to this article 82.34.0.186 (talk) 08:28, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Discuss this by all means - but you should not persistently remove the information, that is disruptive. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:17, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity, emphasis mine: "If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name." Out of 124 Google results for ""Jonathan Willoughby" newsreader", two of them predate her "returning to ITV as India", and neither of those are either reliable or significant. She is not notable for her pre-transition work. We should therefore remove.--Launchballer 23:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Given this argument, which I consider convincing, I will undo the revision as of 21:17, 25 June 2021‎, and remind Redrose64 that persistent re-introduction of content that has been cogently argued to be in violation of Wikipedia policy without discussion or counter-argument is inappropriate at best, by the rules that he himself has cited. 82.34.0.186 (talk) 23:21, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Redrose64 is simply reminding people that trying to seed Wikipedia with non-verified sexual-political statements is a breach of Wikipedia summarizes accepted knowledge policy. Additionally, Libel, nonsense, and vandalism should be completely removed whenever they are encountered. Hubertgrove (talk) 09:05, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I can't argue with following stated style - how do we change the style? This is not in keeping with Wikipedia style outside of this narrow area and it requires the suppression of relevant information.

Information is neutral. People lie about their age, but Wikipedia doesn't print the lie if the truth is known.

For instance: "Rock Hudson (born Roy Harold Scherer Jr.)" Jhutzler (talk) 21:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Probably the place to discuss this would be either Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography or Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Gender identity, although I would advice you read some of the archives as I believe the topic has been heavily discussed in the past. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Early Life

All wiki artjcles have early life. Why not this one Rustygecko (talk) 03:18, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@Rustygecko: Because WP:BLP says that we need reliable sources, and presumably none are available. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The Sun, possibly not considered RS, did carry an interesting 2018 article about Willoughby which did not go much into 'early life' but did discuss the transition phase. 'India admits she struggled with telling her family and young son - and instead spent five years leading a double life. During the week she worked as a PR woman in Newcastle, then returned to the family home in Cumbria as Jonathan to be a father to her teenage son. She said: “I didn’t want to lose my family and friends. What I did was I decided to split my life in two. I spent weekends as Jonathan in one city and I lived as the real me in Newcastle." India finally told her son, then 16, in a letter she handed to him after a meal out. Now living as a single mum, she recalled: “He said, ‘It changes nothing. You’re still my parent.’ He and his mother have been so supportive and ITV have been fantastic.”' https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/2197801/india-willoughby-celebrity-big-brother-2018-evicted-transgender/

Willoughby has only become notable due to transition, and she does not seem to mind making reference to her old name, her ex-wife or her now grown-up son, though all of those are presently excluded from the Wiki article. Concealing her previous existence tends to eliminate the one thing that makes her notable.

The Daily Mail, which is for some reason ruled non-RS by Wikipedia (it may be editorially bonkers at times, but no more so than papers like the Guardian, the Telegraph or the New York Times, which are RS), reported in September 2020 an interview with Willoughby on ITV's This Morning in which she deplored the British Medical Association's proposal for gender self-ID without medical diagnosis. Willoughby said, 'If you go down that route, you could have somebody with a full hipster beard and no anatomical changes whatsoever and clicks his fingers and says he's a woman and starts using areas used by women. Then there starts to be problems and we get into the whole JK Rowling issues.' She felt that trans status should be reserved for people like her 'who go on a medical pathway and fit in with the world as it is.' Oddly, although she has lately called the LGB Alliance a 'hate group', she took the same view of the BMA proposal that the LGBA took, as detailed in the same article. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8743217/India-Willoughby-blasts-BMA-calls-allow-people-legally-change-gender-without-medical-diagnosis.html Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

See WP:DAILYMAIL. As for The Sun - forget it. But you can read up at WP:THESUN if you like. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Libel

Is this section appropriate? Seems potentially libellous or at least not remotely impartial

“India Willoughby is considered by many as the "go-go yass queen slay" and will continue to rule the LGBTQ+ kingdom she has built in the last few years in challenge to the evil, transphobic witch JK Rowling“ 185.248.106.88 (talk) 16:29, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2023

Change 'India Scarlett Willoughby (born 2 September 1965)' to 'India Scarlett Willoughby (born Jonathan Willoughby 2 September 1965)'

Or, if you don't include the information (that 'she' was born a boy, and called Jonathan by his parents) there, then include it somewhere on the page.

Information source:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/india-willoughby 92.41.77.196 (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see MOS:DEADNAME or the above section Talk:India Willoughby#References to Willoughby's former name Cannolis (talk) 06:54, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Former name

Are we sure that omitting her former name is correct application of MOS:DEADNAME? It says

If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists.

But an article in the Express [1] suggests she was notable under her former name:

Father-of-one <redacted>, 50, was a household name for 10 years covering all the big news stories on ITV's Border News, in Carlisle, Cumbria

davidprior ^t/_c 16:03, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Put back the original name

The née is important. Stop trying to cover people's last by claiming "deadname" rights. Utter nonsense. 174.95.180.173 (talk) 04:52, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Per MOS:DEADNAME, we should only include a deadname if If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under [it]. Your welcome to read any of the above sections, or find some evidence that she would have been notable before she came out. For my money the fact that she only got a Wikipedia page [2] after she came out points to the fact that she likely wasn't notable under that name. Cakelot1 (talk) 10:21, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Bit of an error there – we should only include a deadname if [...] a person was not notable under [it]. Other way around. :) We should include it only if they were notable under it. GhostOfNoMan 13:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Biography? Or publicity?

The article currently reads as the latter, and would be better polaced in a gossip magazine than an encyclopaedia. 147.148.211.100 (talk) 12:28, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Transgender? Or transsexual?

"India Willoughby... [said on ITV]: 'I'd just like to say to all the people who are trans[gender], love you to bits, but I'm actually trans[s]exual. There's a slight difference there, it's a medical condition and I had to transition.'" — Cydney Yeates (2018-01-17), "Big Brother's India in new storm after Lorraine interview flops", Daily Star. – .Raven  .talk 11:51, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:DAILYSTAR. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:21, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Hm. Is that to indicate India Willoughby might not actually have said that on the ITV show? Verified at:

• https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/reality-tv/a847690/celebrity-big-brother-india-willoughby-criticised-dismissing-transgender-people-lorraine/ (WP:RSP#Digital_Spy)
• https://www.thepinknews.com/2018/01/17/celebrity-big-brother-india-willoughby-quizzed-on-her-fear-of-drag-queens/ (WP:PINKNEWS)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN3yPXOg_2k (Video from and of the Lorraine show; statement made after 01:30.)
  

– .Raven  .talk 14:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2023

In the Infobox person section change: Drewwest75 (talk) 13:35, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 13:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2023 (2)

change: Willoughby was born and grew up in Carlisle, Cumbria.

to:

Willoughby was born in London and grew up in Carlisle, Cumbria.

Drewwest75 (talk) 15:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

(Note: I've reformatted the comment above to take out the section headings. This does not affect the substance of what is being requested.)

We don't seem to have a reference for her place of birth at all at the moment. Do you have a WP:RS source supporting her being born in London? If so, I agree that we should change it. If not, then probably we shouldn’t be making any claim about where she was born at all. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Drewwest75:  Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. GoingBatty (talk) 16:45, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

i have a copy of her passport that she sent to me that shows her place of birth as london. but it won't let me attach it as proof. Drewwest75 (talk) 17:00, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea why she might have sent it to you, but uploading anybody's passport would be an incredibly bad idea. That is private information of a sort that could be abused for identity theft. Disclosing it could get you into serious trouble. Anyway, please read WP:RS to learn about the sorts of sources that we can use on Wikipedia. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:12, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

this page has the information that she was born in london:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q68172526 Drewwest75 (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

That's Wikidata and they say that they got it from Wikipedia so that just points round in a big dumb circle, proving nothing. We need something that meets WP:RS otherwise it should be removed from Wikipedia and from Wikidata as unproven. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

She claims on her twitter to be born in London [3] and googling shows some similar claims from sources which I doubt are RS Lyndaship (talk) 18:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

It would be good to get an RS reference but I think that tweet is good enough under WP:ABOUTSELF. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:30, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

here's her linked in with the info too: https://www.linkedin.com/in/india-willoughby-b5a771249/ Drewwest75 (talk) 18:54, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done} --DanielRigal (talk) 18:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2023

please change Drewwest75 (talk) 20:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 20:27, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2023

In the infobox, change

|birth_place=Carlisle, England

to match the early life section updated last week.

|birth_place=London, England

to reflect what is in the Drewwest75 (talk) 14:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:16, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

No portrait?

Guess I'm forced to rely on my imagination to figure out how Ms. Willoughby would look... The same likely would likely hold true for most other readers of this article. Zakawer (talk) 02:14, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

If there is a photo of her on Wikimedia commons or from some other appropriate source you think would be suitable, then please add it. GraziePrego (talk) 06:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Any reason why marriage in 1997 is not mentioned?

I would add the detail but can’t. Any reason why this can not be added? Thanks. 31.94.22.210 (talk) 16:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

For a start - and this is essential - you need reliable sources. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:11, 19 July 2024 (UTC)