Talk:Indonesian Christian Student Movement

This review is transcluded from Talk:Indonesian Christian Student Movement/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jenhawk777 (talk · contribs) 22:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I am planning on reviewing this article. My preview indicates most of what it needs is simply grammar. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello Jeromi, I think this will go quickly. I find this sentence awkward in terms of English sentence structure: "The movement was established on 9 February 1950, as the merger of the Christelijke Studenten Vereniging op Java, which is the organization for Christian students in Java, and the Indonesian Christian Students Association." It isn't technically wrong, but it would read easier if it were something like this: "Established on 9 February 1950, it is the product of a merger between the Christelijke Studenten Vereniging op Java, which is the organization for Christian students in Java, and the Indonesian Christian Students Association." Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I also suggest combining the next two sentences into one so that you don't have to repeat "the movement" so many times.Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC).

If you are going to use an abbreviation like GMKI, it must be previously connected to the full phrase so people don't have to guess or assume what it means. Just put it in parentheses next to the full name in your lead, that's sufficient. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC). For example, you say "One of the ranks of NCSV," without explanation of either what ranks are or what NCSV is. Please include enough information about that so someone completely unfamiliar with the topic can understand. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:31, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

(I have italicized these changes to make them easy to see, but you do not need to italicize them in the article.)"to conduct journey in several Javanese cities" should read "to conduct a journey through several Javanese cities." "His mission to establish a similar organization in Indonesia bear fruit" should read had born fruit. "when he met with Johannes Leimena which at that time is still studying in STOVIA." should read "when he met Johannes Leimena who, at the time, was still studying in... what ever STOVIA is." Don't forget to add those commas. "Together, they perform missionary activities, Bible discussions, and prayer groups" should read "Together they established missionary prayer groups, etc. Replace "The group initially" formed the Christelijke Studenten Vereeniging Batavia in 1924, with its headquarters in Kebon Sirih" with a simple "They formed..." and there is no comma between 1924 and with.

That's probably enough to begin with. I don't want to overwhelm you. Hope you and yours are well. in this crazy time! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:45, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Done. I guess.--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 06:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Jeromi please don't feel badly about these small changes. English grammar, sentence structure and prose style is corrected in nearly every article that comes up for GA because even native English speakers have trouble getting it all correct. Your English is amazingly good. This is not a big problem, but it is a requirement that a GA have well-written prose, so bear with me, and we will get this perfectly polished. Okay?

This sentence: "The movement is the member..." change the to a--unless this organization is actually the only member--add "is" in front of the word internationally and take out the comma there. A comma in that location creates what is called a "sentence fragment."

This sentence: "After the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies since 8 March 1942, CSV was frozen by its leadership" needs clarifying. It shouldn't say "since 8 March" it should say "which began 8 March" and "frozen by its leadership" needs further explanation. Was membership frozen? Activities stopped? What specifically does that mean?

"in the Jakarta Theological Seminary on 1945, and was led by..." "on" should be "in", and take out the comma and replace and with "which." "PMKI's activities was largely" -- were largely the same. Move the interrupter in the sentence--the phrase ", such as Bible discussion," with its commas, to immediately after "PMKI's activities" so it reads "PMKI's activities, such as Bible discussions, were largely the same except that, the organization..." and be sure to put a comma after that and before the rest of the sentence. You can see that the part of the sentence after the comma could be read as a sentence on its own, it's an independent clause, so it needs a comma in front of it.

I went ahead and fixed the next section.

Under Development: "On the congress, the movement officially adopted Pancasila as the main theme of every congress." Just say "The congress officially adopted..." For "The congress also recorded..." say "They also recorded." In the third paragraph "making the total number of GMKI members to 1099" pick either "bringing the number to" or "making the number" without the to. "On the same year" should be "In the same year..." "on which the leadership is elected" should read "by which" and "organization and not affiliated to" should read "and is not affiliated with any political party." You should consider moving "During this time, many people misinterpreted GMKI as a wing of the Indonesian Christian Party." up as an introductory statement to the sentence "The congress reconfirmed its stance..." since the two things are connected in concept--one explains the other--and all it needs is a comma and a "however" to make the two sentences into one.

I will stop here for now, but if we are going to get this finished in the time we have left, we will have to cover more ground faster. Are you going to be okay with that? I will come back later tonight and see what you've done and give you more to do if you are up for it--or I can wait till tomorrow. Which is better for you? Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Done. I guess.--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 06:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jeromi Mikhael: If you don't want to do this you don't have to. We can stop anytime you say. The article will fail to receive GA this time, but you can nominate it another time and get a different reviewer and see what they say. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:38, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't know, but I have a huge amount of spare time and nothing to do. Just do it.--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 16:40, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay then. As I was looking over what you had changed I noted that this paragraph: "CSV conducted missionary activities in other cities, and formed branches in Bandung and Bogor.[2] The branch was united with the formation of Christelijke Studenten Vereeniging op Java (CSV) on 28 December 1932. The formation of CSV was prompted by the decision of J. R. Mott, the general secretary of the World Student Christian Federation (WSCF), which wanted to held the WSCF congress in Bogor on 1933." has problems. You say two branches were formed then say "the branch" was united--which branch? Also a person is not a which, a person is a who, and held should be hold, and on should be in. It might be best here if you simplify, and eliminate the "which wanted" altogether, saying simply "...(WSCF), to hold the WSCF congress in Bogor...".

Under Consolidation (1960-1970), the first sentence confuses me: "The first era of consolidation in GMKI signified the efforts to stabilize the internal of GMKI and reconcile the Christian groups outside GMKI." Was it the internal organization of GMKI that needed stabilizing, or was it reconciling inside and outside that was the issue? If both, perhaps it needs two sentences.

"a national conference of study and leadership conference"--pick one of those uses of conference, either "a national study and leadership conference" or "a national conference of study and leadership" but not both.

In the sentence "During this era, there were two conflicting Christian youth organization" organization should be plural--just add an s. "The meeting ended..." should also be meetings and "government recognization" should be government's or governmental and "recognization" should be recognition. "on which" should be "within which the".

Under "New Order" Consolidation (1965-1970): staunchly supports should be supported--past tense.

Under New Order (1970-1998): students' is student's. Just move the apostrophe. On down in the next paragraph, "malfunction branches are reevaluated" should be "malfunctioning". "if its existence not deemed necessary." put an is in the middle--"is not deemed..."

Under Adoption of Pancasila: the first sentence "creating the concept of single principle." requires an "a" before single. "mass organization," should be plural. "The adoption of Pancasila as a single ideology was responded with" is awkward in English. Try "Pancasila as a single ideology was adopted with..." ; "stipulates" should be stipulated--past tense. "world"--did you mean word? "responded this" needs a "to" in the middle.

And that ends history--I guess. ;-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

dOne. i gUeSs. my keyboard brok. help--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 03:08, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jeromi Mikhael: I am guessing that means you are unable to continue then? I will not continue until I know that you are able to go on. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Let us continue. I have fixed my keyboard.--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 06:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay then, here we go.

Under New Order

This action led to a bigger influence of GMKI, should be 'This action led to GMKI having a bigger influence, and by the beginning of the 1970s, GMKI was one of two Christian student's movements," in existence? at the universities? in the country?

On its fifteenth congress in Palembang in 1976, GMKI formed a new institution for the caderization and filtering its future members, the Institution for Development and Research of Cadre (Indonesian: Lembaga Penelitian dan Pengembangan Kader, LPPK). change to "During its fifteenth... and filtering 'of' its future members: the Institution...

Adoption of Pancasila: what is Pancasilla by the way? I have read through this multiple times now and haven't found an explanation. An explanation should be included in your first mention of it--or here--since you discuss it here.

Organization

The congress is the highest body in GMKI. The congress is held biannually since 1956.[16] The congress is legally binding if it is attended by at least half plus one branch of GMKI, and at least half plus one from the determined number of delegates. The number of delegates is based on the number of members in its corresponding branch. For example, branches that have 25-100 members may send one delegate, while branches that had more than 1750 members may send a maximum of 10 delegates

The first sentence is good. change the second sentence to: "It has met biannually since 1956." The third should read something like: Congressional decisions are legally binding if the congress is attended...

The congress is led by the Assembly of Heads, which consisted of delegates and members of the Central Board appointed by the Congress. The congress is officiated to set the constitution of the movement, assess the general report by the Central Board, establish the outline of the program and GMKI, and elect the Central Board.

change 'which consisted' to 'which consists', change 'officiated' to 'empowered'

Central Board--add an "an" to "The central board may establish and dissolve an auxiliary body...

Regional Conference -- "The regional conference is the highest body of GMKI in the regional level." change to "at" the regional level. "The conference is responsible to the Central Board via Regional Board, and must convene at least once biannually." add a "the" in front of Regional, and 'once biannually' makes no sense--is it once or is it twice a year?

"The board is held by a minimum of three person, the regional chairman, secretary, and treasurer. The formation of the regional board must be informed to the members of the branch at a maximum of two months after the appointment." change person to 'persons', and change "informed' to 'communicated'

"The board must convene at least once bi-monthly"--bi-monthly is most often used to mean twice a month so just say every two months, or every other month

Membership

"the constitution states" and "The constitution also explicitly stated" are both here--pick one verb tense. I suggest 'states' for both statements.

the alumnus of ordinary members I think you mean: "Extraordinary members are alumni who were ordinary members?

and appointed by the Regional Board. and are appointed...

So, that's it. I think this is an extremely good article, and it deserves GA status. Fix these last things and I will sign off. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:58, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Finally, I'm done. Thanks with the assistance!--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 15:46, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

You are most welcome. It is truly an excellent article and I enjoyed reading it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jenhawk777: hi, I am a reviewer at DYK and this article has been nominated for appearance on the main page in that column. I started to look over the article and found many grammatical problems. I edited one section, but do not have patience to go over the rest. The writer is misusing "after" instead of "since", "on" instead of "at", and other basic English grammatical constructions. I'm surprised you passed it for GA in this condition. Yoninah (talk) 18:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah:. When I passed it, all its grammatical problems were as fixed as I felt were required. English has some flexibility to it. I looked at your edits and don't agree they were necessary. He does not misuse, so much as use differently, because this is a non-native English speaker. Perhaps an introduction to Simple English [[1]] is appropriate. And we don't spell born with an e at the end. If you change that, you'll need to change all the rest of the article's spelling as well. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:48, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jenhawk777: Frankly, that's ridiculous. The writer is unfamiliar with standard English usage, and we cannot promote Indian English to the main page. I noted some of the problems on the DYK nomination: After the recognition of Indonesia's independence by the Dutch, both student organizations still exist.—there is a past-present conflict with the use of "After" and "still". Similarly, the sentence: Since 1963, GMKI became more socialistic—should read either After 1963, GMKI became more socialistic, or: Since 1963, GMKI has become more socialistic. I recommended that the writer apply at WP:GOCE to help him out. BTW I went ahead and changed has borne fruit to bore fruit. Yoninah (talk) 23:34, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

He's Indonesian, not Indian. It's a good article. It's interesting and informative and it's on an uncommon subject. It's not perfect, but it communicates. You may of course recommend to him whatever you please. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Jenhawk777, I was pinged by Yoninah to take a look at this, since I'm involved in both the GA and DYK spaces. The GA well-written criteria are: the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. If there are grammatical problems, and switching back and forth between past and present tenses within a sentence is a problem even beyond the lack of clarity involved, then per the criteria they should be fixed before any article is passed. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: I do understand the well written criteria, but was following the Simple English guidelines more, so I allowed a little slack. They were very small things such as on a year instead of in a year, not many of them, and some could even be considered personal taste, but they are now all fixed to our standards. In my mind, it has now lost some of its Indonesian flavor, but if that's what is required, then so be it. I suppose I should make it a point not to do another one like this as I am likely to allow some slack to non-natives again. Thank you for your input on this. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 09:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that a Christian student organization in Indonesia adopted socialism due to its support of the president?
• ALT1:... that the Indonesian Christian Student Movement in Indonesia adopted socialism due to its support of President Sukarno?
• ALT2: ... that a Christian student organization in Indonesia adopted socialism due to its support of President Sukarno?

Improved to Good Article status by Jeromi Mikhael (talk). Self-nominated at 13:58, 27 May 2020 (UTC).

• Drive-by comment: @Jeromi Mikhael: I notice you have been writing hooks that disguise the names of people and organizations. It would be more helpful to international audiences to link the actual names. In this case, you could write: due to its support of President Sukarno. Yoninah (talk) 13:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Oh. I think that makes it more interesting. I'm sorry then.--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 13:48, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jeromi Mikhael: Well, interest is subjective. If you're Indonesian, you know who the president is. If you're not, you don't. I didn't mean for you to change the whole hook. I've restored the thread and struck ALT0 and ALT1. I'll do the review shortly. Yoninah (talk) 18:13, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

• OK, the article received a GA icon within 7 days of this nomination. It is new enough, long enough, well referenced. As sources are either foreign-language or offline, unable to check for close paraphrasing. My main concern with the article is the grammar. I spent some time editing the first section and found a basic misunderstanding of English grammatical usage. Looking at the first sentence in the next section: After the recognition of Indonesia's independence by the Dutch, both student organizations still exist.—there is a past-present conflict with the use of "After" and "still". Similarly, the sentence: Since 1963, GMKI became more socialistic—should read either After 1963, GMKI became more socialistic, or: Since 1963, GMKI has become more socialistic. I do not have the patience to edit the whole article and think this should have been covered in the GA review. I suggest that you apply for a copyedit at WP:GOCE before this nomination proceeds further.
• Regarding the hook fact, I don't really see it stated in the article and there is no inline cite. No QPQ necessary for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits. Yoninah (talk) 18:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

• Since 1963, GMKI became more socialistic and supported Sukarno's policy of continuous revolution and no need to inline cite, because this entire paragraph is rephrased from the Indonesian source below it.Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 11:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, I don't understand your last comment. Yoninah (talk) 13:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Jeromi Mikhael: Jenhawk777 has done an edit on the whole article. I will take a look at this again when I'm a little more awake. There is still the manner of the hook fact and inline cite. Yoninah (talk) 19:03, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Jeromi Mikhael: OK, the article has been edited and we can continue the review. Per WP:DYK#Cited hook, the hook fact must be immediately followed by an inline cite. Please add a cite to this sentence: Beginning in 1963, GMKI became more socialistic and supported Sukarno's policy of continuous revolution. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: done.Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 01:43, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

*@Jeromi Mikhael: Thank you. I searched on 1963 in the source and found this excerpt, which I ran through Google Translate:

Kongres IX berlangsung di Pematang Siantar tahun 1963. Kongres X berlangsung di Manado tahun 1965. Pada Kongres ini, GMKI menyatakan dirinya sebagai anak kandung Gereja dalam Revolusi Indonesia dan sebagai organisasi kader dan bukan ormas (organisasi massa). Hal ini berarti bahwa sikap dan tindakan GMKI diidentikkan dengan Gereja.

The IX Congress took place in Pematang Siantar in 1963. The X Congress took place in Manado in 1965. At this Congress, the GMKI declared itself the biological son of the Church in the Indonesian Revolution and as a cadre organization and not a mass organization (mass organization). This means that attitudes and actions GMKI is identified with the Church.

• Where does it say it adopted socialism beginning in 1963 due to its support of Sukarno? Yoninah (talk) 08:51, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Please stop reviewing my works. You've ruined practically everything I've nominated. I hope I'll never see you again. Thanks. Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 09:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Scribd issue

Jeromi Mikhael Jenhawk777 Anyone can upload stuff to Scribd, regardless of whether it is reliable or whether they have the copyright to it. The site is full of copyvios and self-published documents which are not acceptable as sources. During the GA review there was no evaluation of reliable sources or copyvio issues despite this being a part of the GA criteria. I notice that they have their own website so I would recommend using that, rather than scribd, as a source for official/primary sourced info on the organization. (t · c) buidhe 03:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Hey buidhe thank you so much for warning me of that! I had no idea. I did do as much of a source review as I could, but many of them were unavailable to me. I trusted the author to have acted in good faith. I simply didn't know about this one. Sorry. I should probably not do reviews... I'm not experienced enough. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:16, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Jenhawk777, I don't mean to discourage you from doing GA reviews but please make sure that you evaluate all the criteria, including copyvio and reliability of sources. When doing GA reviews I try to stick to the topics where I'm confident that I can give the article a good evaluation. (t · c) buidhe 04:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: It's been a year...back then I was clumsy and stupid in regards to sources...Would the GA status still stand if I managed to substitute all of the sources? I could probably search atribution somewhere in the newspapers or thesis. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 04:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Jeromi Mikhael, I know, there are definitely things I did on my first GANs that I definitely wouldn't do now. I think if you improve the sourcing and perhaps enlisted WP:GOCE to clean up the prose then it would definitely be a solid GA. (t · c) buidhe 05:04, 20 May 2021 (UTC)