Talk:Insane Clown Posse/Archive 1

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Vandalism

First pic??

why is there no reference to the pic of the the two guys at the top in the article??? is it meant to be there? Coda.

It's called vandalism. An anonymous user (translation, someone who's too big a pussy to get a userid and hides behind an IP address) keeps trying to vandalize this article with random pictures of gay couples instead of the correct picture of ICP. It's a 15-year-old mentality we serious editors have to put up with a lot here at wikipedia. If you're a new user (which I suspect), welcome! Please help us stop vandals, it's very easy and only takes a moment. When you see a vandalized page, click on the history tab, use the compare buttons to compare different versions of the page in its history, and find the most recent version of the page where it looks unvandalized. Edit that page in edit mode, but don't make any changes, just type "revert" or some such in the Edit Summary box and hit Save Page. This will restore the article to its pre-vandalized state and you'll immediately be a hero and receive a check for 20 million dollars. Well, I'm kidding about the hero and money parts, but still, try it out. -Kasreyn 04:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey!

"It's called vandalism. An anonymous user (translation, someone who's too big a pussy to get a userid and hides behind an IP address) keeps trying to vandalize this article with random pictures of gay couples instead of the correct picture of ICP. It's a 15-year-old mentality we serious editors have to put up with a lot here"

I am 15. And yes, it was funny. It was done specifically to offend ICP fans (I understand many ICP fans are homophobic), simply because ICP is a terrible waste... what's really immature is attaching your ego to an online encyclopedia, instead of spending your time doing something useful to help the world. What I did was a joke... and it really brightened my day. What you do... it's sad. Because you're serious about it. What satisfaction could you possibly get being so caught up in this meaningless reallity? I've already heard the whole lecture about preserving wikipedia's reputation. I get that. But seriously... you don't have to put such immense value in it.

In short: DO SOMETHING USEFUL WITH YOUR LIFE. ^.^

First off, you continue to be too big a coward to get a userid and actually join in the discussion. Your "understanding" of ICP fans is as stupid as anything I've ever read. I've personally known several gay ICP fans, and very few straight ones who were homophobic. I find it odd that you call me immature, when you are the one who thinks he has the right to ruin other people's hard work for fun. If none of this matters to you, why do you stick around to vandalize it? If my "ego" is wrapped up in this, why is yours so involved in attacking it? If you're so detached, why did my reply burn you up enough to reply to me in all caps? I doubt you have an answer.

And for what it's worth, I consider wikipedia to be one of the best ideas anyone ever had. For almost the entire history of the world, knowledge has been the property of elites and ruling classes; even supposedly free knowledge was always presented with inherent biases that ruined its worth. Wikipedia is the first baby step towards changing that. Improving it is definitely useful. Is the article on ICP critical to the future of the world? Of course not. But I have this little thing about ethics and principles, you see. So on wikipedia, I make it a point to monitor controversial articles, articles on subjects that piss people off, since they're the most highly vandalized. I monitor a lot of articles even less important than ICP for vandalism, and not because I particularly care about the contents of those articles; simply because of the argument you refuse to acknowledge about Wikipedia's reputation.

In any case, I guess I'm glad it "brightened your day" to ruin other people's efforts (at least, for a few seconds before it was reverted?). My guess is that you prefer it to spray-painting buildings or throwing rocks through windows because there's less chance of being caught. I would say "grow up" and try being a real vandal, but of course, it will be several years yet before you're grown up. I suppose it's a waste of time to expect you to understand how to try to be one. In your favor though, I have to commend you for the honesty of going out of your way to say that my guess of your immaturity was correct.

In short: I am doing many useful things with my life, one of the least of which is improving Wikipedia by protecting it from fools like you. Have a nice day. -Kasreyn 22:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me for ruining your bigotry but plenty of fifteen year olds are far brighter and mature than the above poster.

Please avoid generalisations.

-Indigo Jones

"but plenty of fifteen year olds are far brighter and mature than the above poster."

...I said "fifteen year old mentality", not "all fifteen year olds". You're certainly right that some fifteen year olds are smarter than that. The person I was speaking to was simply busy proving that he wasn't. Cheers, Kasreyn 11:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

hey ! juggalos in the haugh!!!!!! if u got to have fantasys of gay couples than leave ICP out of it!!!!!!! ICP is the shit!!!!!!!!

To Thoth re: NPOV

I'm curious why you added the NPOV flag. I was unaware of any arguments or debates going on here in the talk page... if you feel ICP has been represented in a biased way, would you post your reasons here so everyone can discuss it? Typically just tagging NPOV on an article won't do much unless you also state in the talk page *why* you think the page is having NPOV problems. -Kasreyn

great

It's great to have fans of a band write articles describing the musicians they like, they know the music best. However, wikipedia maintains a neutral point of view on all topics, while this page reads like a review of ICP. This page needs work anyhow, but more attention should be paid to writing without bias (positive or negative) towards the band.

broad generalizations

I listen to ICP, but one thing that has always bothered me is that in their music they stereotype people described as rednecks, hicks, and hillbillies as being racists. I know for a fact that this stereotype isn't always true (though it also sometimes IS).

as far back as the 1920's white blues musicians, who were self-described rednecks, hicks, and hillbillies recorded with black blues musicians. the same has been true ever since. Gringo300 20:41, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i'd also like to point out that there are white racists who are URBAN to the core of their beings. Gringo300 02:30, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

To Gringo300

ICP doesn't steriotype all Southern people as racists. Listen to Rebel Flag, they say "The cool in the South teamed up with the North and blew that bigot off..." Which basically shows that they know there's cool people in the South, but the racists one's are just redneck, trashy, hillbilly, bigot bastards.

racist? or misanthropic?

yes, there are definitely a lot of trashy people around every place in the south i have ever lived (but then again, for all i know it may be the same way in the north, the west, the east, etc., too.) however, i think "misanthropic" may be at least as, maybe more, accurate a term as "racist" for a lot of these people- basically, they hate EVERYBODY, regardless of their race. it reminds me of a quote i heard: "i'm not a racist- i hate everybody EQUALLY." Gringo300 01:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

help for text

This text needs help:

• The Riddlebox

The image in the RIDDLEBOX changes drastically from COC. The main focus is life after death. The RIDDLEBOX is supposed to decide where you go when you die.

• The Wraith: Hell's Pit

Schedualed to release on Nov 7 2004, the WRAITH: HELL'S PIT has many different images. One says that ICP will take the listeners on a journey through Hell. Another says that ICP will devastate its fans by saying that they are Satanic. Yet another says they will continue to follow God. No one knows for sure.....yet.

Next Header

Well, aside from the rambling above, i'm adding that they were originally called Inner City Posse, and took ICP and moved to Insane Clown Posse. Crackshoe 03:06, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Since Hell's Pit is already out since this was last updated. Why not mention that in Shangri-La they dedicated a while track to believing in god. They explained how they would be no where without him. THe lyrics are for comedy value not meant to be acted out or taken seriously...it is a way to make people listen to what not to do as a different approach to telling kids no all the time just tell them all the bad things that can happen...because they will listen.

We can't include our own point of view editorializing in an encyclopedic article. Please refer to WP:NOR. We already mention in the article, if I'm not mistaken, that a track on Shangri-La claims god as inspiration. But we can't insert an editorial defending ICP; their words and actions are going to have to speak for them. Kasreyn 22:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

This needs a lot of work

No offence to the author but it's rather sketchy and much is left out. I will volunteer to do the update before any more Juggalos are offended ;-)

Many of the material that has been left out pertains to the before phase and the ofter phase. A quick read through 'Behind the Paint' would do wonders for you.

lolz

Is wikipedia factual or opinionated?

Nate the Mack

Nate the Mack is not Shaggy's bro. John, who went by John Kickjazz was the third member of ICP.

jcw still lives

jcw was not quit around 2003 it still goes on right now and it is gonna be at the gathering this month

Mutilation Mix

I've just removed this, which was in an extra "Discography" section for some reason (I've deleted hat, too):

"There was also a mixed album called "Mutilation Mix" on 4/1/1997."

Aside from being wrongly formatted, it's very obscure: what's meant by "mixed album", and what's the release date? Is it an album of remizes released on 4th January, an album of mixed styles/bands/other released on 1st April, or what? If anyone knows, could they either replace the information in the appropriate place, or leave it here and I can do it? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:47, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

It was a mix album, with about 20 or 30 different ICP tracks mixed together on one CD. Without having the CD to hand, I think all bar 2 of the tracks were either off earlier albums or B-sides, with 2 new tracks. It was released on April 4 1997. Proto t c 11:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Hah, I went to add it, and found that it had been there all along (in the comilations section). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

names

The article has been pulled back and forth by different editors, mostly anons, who change (for example) "Kickjazz" to "Kickchass" and back, never giving any reason. Could someone offer some evidence for one of these (and the same for other names being treated in the same way)> --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:14, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Its written "Kickjazz" in Joe's book.--Wiseguy100

Juggalo Article, Merged Into This One?

Yes, I was one of the people working on producing an article specifically for "Juggalo," but I come backa few days later to find all that work was "megred" into this one, when obviously, they are two completely differet subjects. Yes, ICP was responcable for creating the term "Juggalo," but Juggalo is a much wider term which does not only deal with the ICP. As Goth, Punks and other sub-cultures, Juggalo itself is a sub-culture and fills in more to other things, then just the Insane Clown Posse alone.

Now I'd just like an explination from the man who merged the articles and would also like if the article itself could be restored, since other sub-cultures have their own seperate articles and I feel Juggalo should have the same. Sure, the article might be somewhat of a work in progress, but the only real issue is making it more NPOV then anythign else.

Thanks from a Juggalo - --MJoe 10:27, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, don't bother with this now. I restorated the article by retyping it to hopefully make it more NPOV. But note to anyone else who thinks it should be merged again... Juggalos go way beyond ICP... it's a subculture and should be treated as such and left to have it's own article.

Thanks --MJoe 06:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Red Magician ?

I can't find anything about this. I've searched google. Do you have a specific site to back up your claims?THERE AINT NO RED MAGICIAN DUMBFUCK

Hallowicked Tracks

I edited the discography a little bit (before I made this account). I added a Hallowicked section to list all of the Hallowicked singles. The Hallowicked tracks that were in the misc section are now in the Hallowicked section.

There is still a lot to be improved with the ICP wiki entry. I think more explanation needs to go into the album releases and what was going on at the time of each release.

Sub-culture?

Juggalo should not be merged with the Insane Clown Posse arcticle, nor should it be labeled as a sub-culture, yet. Juggaloism is more of a sect, where people can be labeled as a Juggalo even if they haven't ever heard of Insane Clown Posse, although only someone who listened to their music would be able to make this distinction. I'm currently in the process of updating both arcticles and I hope I can make them a little clearer and more informative.Juggalicious 01:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Who was the jackass who edited this before, today

Just fixed all the stuff someone put on the site while they were hating on ICP and made it impartial again. look at the older versions

That'd be me

I just had to make that known. It's not as though anyone actually cares... about the ICP article on Wikipedia. So... yeah. The seagul is cute.

The point isn't whether anyone cares about the ICP article in particular. It's whether anyone cares that Wikipedia should be a trusted source for information. And as to that, I do care. I don't mean to bite your head off if you're a newcomer to Wikipedia, but there's really no place here for random altering of articles just for a lark, no matter how unpopular the subject of the article. -Kasreyn 06:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Listen here... they editted the article because it was false and made ICP look bad. Making people look bad is not the purpose of this site it is to inform people with factual information. If anyone come to this site and wants really information about the Insane Clown Posse I suggest that you buy the book Behind the Pain by Violent J....or you go to their official website www.insaneclownposse.com There you will read bios made by themselves so that you can be sure you are reading factual information. Peace OUt Ninjas! -Lil Lette Reppin'

I don't see how this article is false or makes ICP look bad. You should see some of the defamatory things people keep trying to add, which I (and other hard-working editors like AngelicWraith) have to keep removing. On the whole, the wikipedia article on ICP is one of the most positive takes on the band to be found anywhere online, excepting the band's own website. However, a lot of people, for obvious reasons, want to get an objective opinion. This article on ICP is primary hit #4 on Google for string "insane clown posse", did you know that? That means we're getting read. So don't worry about ICP's portrayal. As long as we keep this article objective and fair - which we will - no one will be decieved. Kasreyn 22:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Admit it, AngelicWraith

You only mentioned how Eminem spoke of the faygo-showerings because you knew the lyric in question was a (really good) dis of ICP and you wanted people to go listen to it. :P Otherwise it doesn't have much relevance to the faygo-showerings. Perhaps there could be a section devoted to the rivalry with Eminem? -Kasreyn 08:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Kasreyn

There really should be another section. I smell smoke.. oh wait, that's just Kasreyn fanning the flames. :P Fr0 01:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it would be consistent. The article on Eminem makes mention of his rivalries, including ICP. Personally, I'm a fan of both Eminem and ICP and the dis tracks are just hilarious. -Kasreyn 06:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Same here, only I like old school Eminem.. before he sold out. ICP were better before the Wraith.. =/ The "dis tracks" are so funny. "Eminem ain't nuttin' but a *beach*" So funny. :D Fr0 19:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Missing Image

Can anyone explain what happened to the image ICP_Blood.jpg? On its page I do not find any mention that it was removed for copyright violation. Apparently it was deleted from wikipedia *before* being removed from this article. I can't find a cached copy on Google, and I don't know how to adhere to wikipedia policy in finding a copyright-free image to replace it with. Does anyone have a cache of the original image or possibly an explanation as to why it was removed? Was it in fact a copyright violation? Was this done by the same vandal who was constantly replacing the image with other ones? Is there some sort of history page for image deletions? -Kasreyn 06:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

There's no record of history deletions, but it was probably deleted for not having copyright data. Images without an appropriate copyright tag can be deleted without warning or record after seven days. Tuf-Kat 06:19, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, how do I go about vetting a new image to replace it with? I'm unfamiliar with the procedure. -Kasreyn 06:42, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, see Wikipedia:Images for all the gory details. In brief, the best thing to do is go to fansites with photos of ICP, and e-mail the webmaster asking if he owns the copyright to the photos (ie he took the picture himself) and if he'd be willing to freely license one or more. You could also look around sites like Flickr, which allow users to tag photos as free (usually Creative Commons) and which often includes photos of concerts. If you can't find anything this way, you can use Wikipedia:Fair use, such as an album cover or promotional photo, but this is generally frowned upon (though still common). Tuf-Kat 06:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

can someone please?

i dont know how to do it so...next to the meanings of the six joker's cards...could someone please put the covers to each of them....thanx to whoever does it (if anyone) and MMFWCL, ~*~the unknown juggalette~*~

who else?

do any of u own or have any of u read "Behind The Paint"....im supposed to be gettin it....just wanted ta kno how other juggalos felt about it.... peace out and MMFWCL to my fellow juggalos, ~*~the unknown juggalette~*~

Read it and it was worth every minute. Dont' ask other people just read it.

someone explain

>"This guy had problems," said Abbiss, and "anyone going into a bar swinging an axe and shooting a gun ... would clearly have to be insane and out of their mind to do this." He went on, "it's quite obvious that this guy had no clue what being a Juggalo is all about.<

insane...like the insane clown posse? isnt "being insane" what insane clown posse is partially about?

• The point Alex was trying to make was one would have to have severe mental issues to commit such a heinus act on society, and those issues were completely independent of the entertainment provided by Psychopathic Records. - 66.58.196.67 20:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

What does it matter? This is an encyclopedia. We're not here to judge whether what someone says makes sense. We're here to report on what they have said and let the readers draw their own conclusions. If what Abbiss said seems like nonsense to you, it might not seem like that to others. Kasreyn 03:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Admins: requesting sprotect

We've had a higher volume of anonymous IP vandals recently than I've seen in some time at this article. Can the article be protected from anon edits for a few days until they get bored and go back to putting the littler kids' heads in the toilets and griefing in WoW? Kasreyn 09:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable, and needed. Done. Proto||type 10:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Fyrre, I notice you added an NPOV tag to the top of the article, but haven't stated on this talk page your reasons why you feel the article doesn't conform to WP:NPOV. Maybe you weren't aware, but adding the NPOV tag requires explaining your reasons why on the associated talk page. Mind filling us in on what's wrong? Kasreyn 12:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• The entire article is self serving. This article should include basic group information, discography, short definition of the fanbase, light coverage of controversy, and external links. Not paragraph upon paragraph of irrelavant fan club filler. Fyrre
  • Well, let's see. Basic information, check. Discography, check. Description of the fanbase, check. If you have an issue as to whether the remaining information is notable, that's not quite the same thing as saying it's not NPOV. Kasreyn 18:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Fyrre, are you still there? Do you have any reply? Kasreyn 23:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Image request redux

We still need a copyright-free image of J and Shaggs for the intro section. If anyone can find an image that meets Wikipedia's standards, please upload it! Kasreyn 21:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Not enough mention of how they are hated

There should be more discussion on how hated they are. When there is more info about the group rather than this it is not neutral.

Information about how much people hate them is not neutral at all. There is no information in the article about people's like for them, either. In my opinion, I don't like this band, but opinion shouldn't be on encyclopedia pages. DakPowers (Talk) 05:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

User KASREYN is committed to his version

As we try to make an entry with balanced Neutrality, user KASREYN is committed to delete and put back his own "Dark Carnival" mythology and meanings when clearly this is only a page to give the general public a brief history of ICP. No one besides the hardcore ICP fan wants to hear about the fictitious story of the "evil spirits" and "the Ringmaster". What the entry is meant to have in its content is an overview of ICP's history and user KASREYN is clearly committed to omit ICP's negative reputation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.229.107.247 (talk • contribs) .

Accusations of bias are dime a dozen here. The previous version is not "mine" any more than it is anyone's, though I've certainly done my share of work on it. The previous version (current version again now) was largely unsourced, something that needed work; your version would be even less sourced, adding a great deal of original research and weasel words. I'm not saying the previous version was perfect, but we don't need even more unsourced claims added.

I have nothing against including mention of ICP's bad press, as long as it is fairly represented and reliably sourced. Please note though that a group that has eight gold and three platinum albums has a not inconsiderable fan base. It's clearly disingenuous, therefore, to claim that there aren't enough interested readers to make a description of the Dark Carnival notable. The general public clearly includes a great many people who have bought ICP albums. This makes inclusion of this material notable, in my opinion.

Despite whatever you think, I'm not out to own this article. Reverting an edit is not a declaration of war. The article needs to be more well sourced, not less. If criticism of ICP is as widespread as you claim it is, I'm sure you will be able to find plenty of sources. Best of luck, Kasreyn 20:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. my username is not capitalized. There's no need to SHOUT. Kasreyn 20:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Original Research

To the editor who has added a great deal of unsourced new material, please refer to WP:NOR. I will be adding citation needed tags as needed shortly. Kasreyn 19:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I GIVE UP

I tried my best to contribute to wikipedia. I found out the ICP page needed some work. Ok. I dedicated maybe 2 days to try to make it neutral, balanced, cite sources, etc.

Couple if hours later, I find people reverting it. They said it was because of the content being too long. Ok. I tried making it shorter. Couple of hours later, reverted again. This time someone said it violated the wikipedia=what is not rule. Fixed it. Then AGAIN, reverted. I give up. This place is full of people who have nothing else to do but try to be a problem to its content rather than try to fix it.

Also, I don't have all the time in the world to sit here and try to figure it out and I am aware I don't have to either, so this is it, I give up all together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.107.247 (talk • contribs) 10:27, 29 May 2006

The person who reverted the last time was me, though I only reverted partially; it was because you'd changed correct Wikipedia style to incorrect, had added a lot of material whose English was rather fractured, and had added PoV material (or material couched in PoV terms).

The point of Wikipedia is that whatever you write can (and probably will) be edited by others; I'm afraid that, if you can't become accustomed to that, life here will be intolerable. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to whatever you might think, none of us are trying to make you leave or run you out. Just be aware that an encyclopedia is different from a web forum or a blog - claims have to be sourced and neutral. I see a lot of new editors coming to Wikipedia with the same goal in mind as you - to "fix" articles that aren't telling the "truth". However, not everyone agrees on what the truth is. There are no privileged frames of reference. Your opinion is no better than mine or anyone else's. Therefore Wikipedia is a consensus-based project. Before making large-scale changes to an article, it's always best to discuss the proposed changes on the talk page first and determine what the consensus of the other editors is.

Please don't take the reverts as something personal. They're not. All too often, new editors, who believe that their version is the only "true" one, jump to the conclusion that everyone else is out to get them. It's not true. In case you're reading this, please don't quit. I'm sure you can help out. Just be aware that no one is allowed to change an article to be exactly what they want it to be. Kasreyn 16:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Mel, the original NPOV tag was added by Fyrre, who has stopped responding. According to the tag, reasons must be given on the talk page for including the tag, or else it should be removed. I've fixed the sentence that mentioned "legions of adoring fans". Do you still have any POV problems with the article? Cheers, Kasreyn 16:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• How about removing the blatant misrepresentations as well? i.e. "While never achieving full mainstream success, the group has nevertheless obtained a number of platinum and gold albums and a dedicated fan base."

Maybe the author should go verify the RIAA certifications to back that claim up. And I have not stopped responding to anything..kind of busy as I actually have a life. Trashing this shitty rap group is merely a hobby. fyrre

I shouldn't have to point this out, but "trashing" a "shitty" group is not an appropriate thing to be using Wikipedia for. Please reread the WP:NPOV policy you are referring to. No one editor has a privileged point of view or frame of reference.

If you're too busy to respond on talk pages on Wikipedia, then frankly you have no business adding NPOV tags. It's clearly stated that one must be able and willing to explain the reasons for such a tag. Are you able? If so, you must be prepared to reply to commentary within a reasonable amount of time. A week is not.

Finally, I fail to see how the sentence you quoted is a misrepresentation. I've in fact recently made an effort to reduce the sentence's positivity towards ICP, by removing the bit about "legions of loyal fans". The sentence is accurate: they never have achieved full mainstream success, largely due to their refusal to make "clean" versions of all their raps. They do indeed have a dedicated fan base. As for the certifications, I've never before heard anyone question them, so forgive me for being a little startled. I don't personally know where to go to find sources to back that up. I will try to find that out. Kasreyn 01:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added an unreferenced tag to the RIAA certifications section while I search for sources. Kasreyn 01:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Scratch that. I've found an incontrovertible source. Turns out there were two errors: Amazing Jeckel Bros. was gold, not platinum, and Ringmaster apparently only went gold once, not twice. All the other claims were accurate. ICP therefore has two platinum certifications and nine gold certifications. This totals to 6.5 million certified unit sales. I'd say that's definitely "a number". Anything else I can help you with, Fyrre? Kasreyn 01:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• One platinum album, one platinum VIDEO. fyrre

• Grammatically speaking, "a number of platinum and gold albums" does not require that either platinum or gold be plural, just that together they be plural. For instance, it could be one platinum and multiple gold, or one gold and multiple platinum. Would you prefer "a number of platinum and gold albums and videos"? Kasreyn 20:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

  Or of course, we could skip all subjectivity and simply say "a number of platinum and gold RIAA certifications", which is factual and objective. Kasreyn 20:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

  Have you any further objections to the article on the basis of NPOV, Fyrre? Kasreyn 00:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Omegacain88

sorry to intrude but i see a problem with what movies ICP were in. They were also in Bowling Balls.