Talk:Irish Travellers/Archive 2

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Demographics

I undid the edit that deleted the demographics information. The justification given in the edit summary by user:86.154.130.136 was that "This section is not needed at all and makes travellers out to be "third world" citizens." I think that this should be discussed before the deletion is made. Many pages on ethnic or regional groups give demographic information. I think it is up to the readers of the entry to decide what information they need when they look up the subject, not one editor. As for making them out to be "third world citizens", again, I don't understand how giving information about them can do this (unless the information is not accurate). Is this because of the demographic information given as comparison? I assume that these groups were chosen by user:Anandks007 because they also have high birth rates, but I could see the argument for only giving the information for the Irish traveler community compared to the European community birthrate, and leaving out the info for Pakistan, India, etc. -AJseagull1 (talk) 23:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

OK.. I removed the Birth Rate for Asian countries from the article. I tried to compare with other European communities where the birth rate is high.... like the ultra-religious Dutch towns of Urk, Valkenburg and Graafstroom. But data available was insufficient. Axxn (talk) 14:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Population in the UK.

Reference 1 claims that there are 200000/300000 irish travellers in the uk, yet later on in the article in the demopgraphics section it claims there are just 15000 which is also supported by reference 4.

An accurate, possibly census account of the zise of irish travelling community in the UK is required, anyone got one?Jai alai (talk) 11:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I just came here to mention this point too. brob (talk) 19:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the larger figure possibly refers to the 'travelling community' in the UK, which is not synonymous with pavee or Irish Travellers, neither of which are terms you hear often in the UK. Hakluyt bean (talk) 20:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

One sided much?

This article seems bedevilled by wanton disregard for balance, appearing to be written as all but a parody.

The undeniable fact of any drive through the Irish countryside is that halting sites, whether during or after occupation by traveller families, typically appear filthy. This applies somewhat less frequently to "official" sites, but is still generally true. Now, one in no way wishes to suggest that *all* traveller families or all halting sites are like this - having shared a laneway for many years with an obsessively tidy temporary site I can attest to the existence of clean, tidy, considerate travellers. They appear to be a small minority however.

The article seems to go to great lengths - absurd lengths - to gloss over this reality. There appears to be a willing delusion in force, as if this group should be described as one would *like* to find them. If this article was about a product, it would undoubtedly have an advertising warning at the top.

"Tolerant" and "balanced" do not mean wishful thinking and willful refusal to engage with reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.195.137.40 (talk) 20:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Nobody can put "most Travellers keep filthy camps" in the article because they think so or because they believe they're expressing a commonly-held opinion. It needs to be verifiable. In theory, one way material like that might enter the article is a news story about, say, the health board inspecting a particular Traveller campsite and finding it unsatisfactory. If you had a few stories like that, you might then write, "Unsanitary conditions at some Traveller camps have attracted the attention of health authorities." Then provide references to the stories that support the statement. Dppowell (talk) 19:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Dppowell. I wish people who come onto this discussion page and complain that Travellers are dirty, stupid, ignorant etc. would remember that this page is not an opinion forum, that the article is not an editorial, and that Wikipedia is not a chat room. This page is a place to discuss actual improvements to the article, but the anonymous poster - like the many others who have done the same - has no actual contribution to make except to moan that the article is 'wishful thinking'. I also note that most of the people who bitch on this page about Travellers and then loudly protest that they are not personally bigoted, don't sign their own posts. I hardly call that good citizenship. If you don't like this article, change it; don't hide behind anonymity and don't just complain. If you do change the article to reflect your own personal opinions unsupported by documented fact, be prepared to have your changes undone. Lexo (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

For such claims of unsanitary conditions in Traveller camps not to be original research, they would have to have been printed by reliable sources. A Google News search shows some possible sources, though much of the article is behind paywall in some cases. See [1] , [2] [3] , [4], [5] and[6].(belatedly signing) Edison (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Has the ghost of Corin Redgrave been at the main page? It's definitely got a pro-traveller bias on it these days! Next time I'm in Rathkeale I don't think I'll know the place? Seems there'll be painted caravans inhabited by kind gentle folk who'll be merrily dancing around the camp fire despite the machinations of those evil settled people! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.97.85 (talk) 12:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Organized Crime

There is no mention of Organized Crime in this article. Particularly in North America, the Travellers are well known for harboring Con Men, Scam artists, and Swindlers. This is a gross omission from this article. Castravalva (talk) 04:31, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunatly very few published articles would be willing to paint a true picture of 'travellers' and therefore credable references wouldn't be widely available. This is perhaps one of the articles where the bleeding obvious can't be prooved Cls14 (talk) 15:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Irish Travelers raided on fraud, other charges

Task force formed in response to public outcry following an expose on the Traveler community by the television show Dateline NBC.

Criminal activity in Murphys Village, North Augusta, SC is substantiated by the following news release: copyvio removed

Pam muraca (talk) 13:17, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I retired to Aiken, SC, near Murphy's Village (SC), the U.S. center for Irish Travellers. I have no idea if this is also true in the UK, etc., but I can tell you here the entire community's revenue is dependent on (besides welfare, public assistance, etc.) numerous scams bilking the gullible and elderly, predominantly home/driveway/roof repair scams, phony charities, ID theft, check fraud, cash-based fraudulent enterprises, and heavy shoplifting, including enlisting & training their children to steal. Murphy's Village has some trailers and cottages, but most live in huge but poorly maintained estates paid for by their criminal enterprise. One only need look at the local news (or the North Augusta PD and Aiken County Sheriff arrest records) to verify this. The snide reference to the Georgia Governor (FN#44) in the Wiki article is totally unfair, since he spoke the truth.Pam muraca (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

So go and get a source for the arrest records then, otherwise your additions here are your opinion (and making some pretty big claims). And what "snide remark" are you referring to in the article? --HighKing (talk) 19:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, ref. this article about a joint task force sweep of Murphys Village in 2002: http://www.rickross.com/reference/irish_travelers/irish_travelers2.html, which was a response to community furor after the Dateline NBC expose.

You can use that article to google enough supporting data for "sources," but I can't believe you're surprised, unless you live under a rock.

As for the snide quote, in context, I think you use that quote (at the end of "Anti-social Behavior") to illustrate what you perceive to be discrimination against this sick group.

HighKing, you are hostile and defensive, and I was simply trying to add a little accuracy to the totally one-sided coverage of this cult, who also obscenely sexualizes their little girls and possibly hides pedophiliac & kiddie porn activities. (Ref. SO reports.) Worldwide, these parasites cost us fortunes in social, legal, and medical expenses without contributing anything to their surrounding societies. That's an opinion!Pam muraca (talk) 22:47, 2 July 2011 (UTC)Pam muraca (talk) 22:44, 2 July 2011 (UTC) 74.250.135.89 (talk) 22:39, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Hey Pam, please don't delete discussions from Article Talk pages. I've restored the discussion. If you want to strike a comment, do it like this. Also, please refrain from commenting on editors as it's against WP:CIVIL policy. I fail to see how my comments could possibly be taken as "hostile and aggresive", but I find it very disturbing what you've written above. Referring to Irish Travellers in your area as a cult who "obscenely sexualizes their little girls and possibly hides pedophiliac & kiddie porn activities" is totally unacceptable, and unless you can justify the comment with reliable sources, I'd advise you to strike the comments (and apologize). --HighKing (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, you just deleted my reponse (didn't like it?), so, once again, I say you owe us, law-abiding society, an apology. Any mental health professional or criminologist will tell you when you see 6-year-olds undulating their hips in provocative, experienced, sexual movements, whether it's your little dancers or here in the U.S. in a kiddie beauty pageant, will tell you that beneath that layer of obscene movement is another layer of probable child molesting and pornography. It's a reality. You are obviously a Traveller and a belligerent one, since I see you chose a username of a childrens' book Warlord. Control problems? You should examine the reasons people condemn this group instead of attack me. You are Exhibit A.Pam muraca (talk) 20:57, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Pam. If you checked the history of this page, you'd have easily discovered that some other editor deleted your response. You're a new editor. My advice to you is to read up on the core policies here (especially regarding WP:CIVIL), otherwise you may find other editors commenting on your conduct and you may even end up having your editing privileges temporarily suspended. There are minimum standards of conduct expected. And I've no intentions of carrying on this discussion less you feel you're being goaded. Let's just draw a line under this. --HighKing (talk) 21:26, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Copyvios deleted

What has the above got to do with organised crime? Bjmullan (talk) 13:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I've collapsed the huuuugggeeee posts. They're all copyright violations - should they be deleted? What's the policy for Talk pages? Also, just to point out, Pasadena333 above is our friend above with an urgently requested renamed account. --HighKing (talk) 13:41, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, they were such blatant copyvios that not only should the have been deleted, they must be deleted! And so they have. The we're also irrelevant to the idea of "organized" crime, as they were just run of the mill scams. oknazevad (talk) 20:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Ashes to Ashes

I just noticed this reference to the British TV show. This tv show doesn't indicate in the plot or storyline that the travellers in question are Irish, or have a link to Ireland. i watched the show at the time and they have English accents and also have stereotypical Romani characters like a "fortune teller". I dont think they are Irish gypsies or were wrote in a such. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.133.43.176 (talk) 17:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I've just searched the article for Ashes to Ashes and don't find a ref. Which programme are you referring to? RashersTierney (talk) 17:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Just noticed you'd removed reference. Anyway any sites I've found refer to 'Jed Wicklow' as Gypsy or Romany, so it seems your call was bang on the money. RashersTierney (talk) 17:50, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Important Article

Could someone who has free (university) journal access, please read North et al. (2000). I read it a couple of years ago. As far as I remember they proposed, based on that genetic analysis, that the Irish Travelers originated from the Midlands of Ireland and they probably started out as skilled artisans and specialist metal workers who manufactured religious iconography and metal farm implements, whey moved itinerantly following religious festivals and seasonal farming centers but lost their living upon changes in religious traditions and farming technology. Its a theory proposed by Michael H. Crawford in 1975. Such a hypothesis seems to be confirmed, I think, by the Traveler's exaggerated form of Irish Catholicism that emphasises the Virgin Mary, a possible leftover of pre-christian Celtic traditions that attest to the Irish Travelers ancient roots. By the way, some have claimed that Ötzi the Iceman was itinerant metal worker, he may be the earliest Traveler.

North, K.E., Martin, L.J. and Crawford, M.H. 2000 The origins of the Irish Travellers and the genetic structure of Ireland. Annals of Human Biology 27 (5), 453, doi:10.1080/030144600419297.

--Diamonddavej (talk) 22:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting reference. I've included a brief description of the conclusions. Norman21 (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

FightGame and Firefight

I have removed the book FightGame and Firefight by Kate Wild as the books dont specifically state the gypsy is actually an Irish Traveller. His name is Freedom Smith, Smith being a well known English Romanichal name and not Irish Pavee one. So I have removed it.Uthican (talk) 19:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The Black Stuff

Hi

I'm surprised that my additions to the TV series section was removed as being "Peripheral relationship to article". I watched this play last week on BBC4 and was struck by the portrayle of Irish Travellers. From the moment they appeared on screen the main characters unanimously agreed that they were untrustworthy and before even speaking to them concluded that they would try to con them. This in fact turned out to be the case leaving the protagonists robbed of their savings and fired from their job at the end of the play - The subsequent devastating unemployment that was explored in the highly acclaimed follow-up Boys from the Blackstuff, and this encounter was said by other characters to be what led to Yosser Hughes mental breakdown depicted over the series. I was amazed at this overwhlmingy negative portrayol by an author like Bleasdale of Irish Travlellers and think it would have been on of the most notable portrayals in British TV history - Certainly more notable than most mentions in that section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.7.108 (talk) 19:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

We try to avoid negative racial stereotyping on most articles which are works of fiction unless historically noteworthy. I agree that it is periperal to the article. Perhaps it would be more fitting in an article on Bleasdale? --HighKing (talk) 20:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure but how could you justify having an episode of Start Trek (With a ridiculous portrale by the way) and not The Black Stuff where Irish Travellers - and the workers attitudes and prejudices towards them - were an integral part of the story. I'd say The Black Stuff/Boys from the Blackstuff were very historically notworthy bits of TV history

I think the point being made is that the Travellers in The Black Stuff were periphery to the overall story, whereas the Travellers in Star Trek were "primary" characters. --HighKing (talk) 00:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd disagree. I'd see them as central http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xYXjyMz9bQ . And this incident was referred to in the subsequent series as the point where everything went wrong for the group and the start of their misery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.32.157 (talk) 05:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You seem to forget that most editors on Wikipedia don't accept that an article is complete unless it has a section about how the subject appeared on some random episode of Star Trek. Phunting (talk) 13:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Article Needs Some Pictures

A few photographs should be added. 98.245.150.162 (talk) 07:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Irish traveller = tarish ?

as in the Tarish Rite Apostolic Church ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.108.8.136 (talk) 17:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The All-Ireland Traveller Health Study has been out for a year...

All-Ireland Traveller Health Study

Just an FYI. The health section can be updated. --Rfilmyer (talk) 19:53, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Removing unidentified image

I am removing this image from the article. Not only does it have no caption, but there is nothing on its own page that substantiates its claim to depict an encampment of Irish Travellers. If it could be better documented, it would be useful in this article, but sitting alone as it is now, unidentified and undocumented, it is only a distraction to the reader.--Jim10701 (talk) 13:06, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Section on surnames

I've removed the section on "Popular Traveller Surnames". The names aren't exclusively Traveller surnames. We don't have sections on "Popular Democratic Voter Surnames" or "Popular British Pakistan Surnames". --HighKing (talk) 12:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

It is a bit odd of a phrase "popular", are they "common" names. Even at that it gives the impression of these being used only by Travellers, there is already a list of notable Travellers. What are the benefits of such a list of surnames here? Murry1975 (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

90% of traveller names are derived from 30 or so surnames. Mongan, McDonagh, Cash and others are identified as "traveller" just as McGregor is Scots and Kowalksi is Polish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.231.251 (talk) 19:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Archiving

This page needs archiving.

Please don't. Archiving hides information, makes people repeat mistakes that were previously discussed and fixed. Gronky (talk) 22:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Tinker Diaspora

There are Irish Tinkers in the United States, who still live by the Tinker lifestyle. I know of at least one large population that "travels" in the American South, and there are probably more. As there is a general Irish diaspora there is also (although much smaller) an Irish-Tinker diaspora in different parts of the world, and it would be good to have a section on that in the article.

98.245.150.162 (talk) 07:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Another reference that says something different in the original

Checking some references on this page I’ve noticed inconsistencies and some simply don’t add up. I’ve just finished reading Judith Okley’s discussion on Gypsy – Travellers again doing so a while ago. On p19 ‘didikois’ was not a term used by UK Gypsies to describe ‘Irish Travellers’ or identifying them by that name. True Irish Travellers have a similar yet distinct lifestyle but on p25 it was used at a local authority level in England. The sentence has been reworded. Uthican (talk) 05:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

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