Talk:Irreligion in Malaysia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 20:31, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that atheists in Malaysia are often threatened with rape and murder? Source: "Nurulhuda’s atheist meetings remain secretive, she stressed, to protect the closeted atheists. [...] Death threats online and over the phone are common, she said. [...] The most common threat to her and other ex-Muslim women is rape, she explained." — Intolerance Rising: Atheists at Risk in Malaysia
  • Reviewed: [[]]
  • Comment: No QPQ needed.

Created by An anonymous username, not my real name (talk). Self-nominated at 20:47, 25 October 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - not at sentence end
• Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Solid article, no major issues; and makes me appreciate living in my country (although I technically don't identify as an atheist, I value having the freedom to choose). However, per DYK rules, the citation for the hook needs to be directly after the sentence end. You can simply repeat it there, then I'll approve. –LordPeterII (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay, LordPeterII, I think I fixed what you were talking about. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

@An anonymous username, not my real name: Ah, no, it seems you misunderstood: Per the criteria, 3b, Each fact in the hook must be supported in the article by at least one inline citation to a reliable source, appearing no later than the end of the sentence(s) offering that fact. So I didn't mean this nomination page, but the article. I did the change in this edit, so now it's correct. I just wanted to point out that this is required, mainly so it's easier to check that the hook is actually accurate per the source(s).

Approve nomination since hook fact checks out. –LordPeterII (talk) 20:55, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Alright, I thought I was missing something. Thank you. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 21:01, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality concerns

I have concerns about this article's neutrality.

• the article currently says "Ex-Muslims are often threatened with murder and other forms of violence, often rape for ex-Muslim women". But the source actually attributes this to a single person "Nurulhuda" (not her actual name). When the source doesn't say something in its voice, how can we say that in wikivoice? This statement is also under "official status" - yet there is no indication that Malaysia officially sanctions death and rape threats against ex-Muslims.
• the article mentions that "Christian pastor Raymond Koh has been detained since February 2017". What's that got to do with irreligion in Malaysia? This is also an example of WP:SYNTH given that the user used a source that connected intolerance of atheists to intolerance of Christians, and another source that connected intolerance of Christians to detention of Raymond Koh to conclude that this detention was related to intolerance of atheists.
• "Another 60% support fatal stoning as penalty for adultery." This is also of dubious relevance to this article.
• "[ Najib Razak ] also refused to allow Muslims the right to apostasy". This is misleading. The source says that Razak said "We will not tolerate any demands or right to apostasy by Muslims." There is no indication in the source that Razak passed any legislation or policy that banned conversion out of Islam in Malaysia. A better wording would be that "Najib Razak stated that..."

VR _talk 00:52, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I would like to firmly state that this article was not written out of personal bias against Malaysia or its people. I will move the first line to a more appropriate section. I must admit that I am not sure what should be done about the wikivoice issues you have mentioned. The second point you have brought up was merely an attempt to provide context for the comparison between treatment of Christians and atheists, a comparison created by the sources, not myself. As for the third, per our own article on the subject, adultery is "extramarital sex that is considered objectionable on social, religious, moral, or legal grounds", so it is most definitely of relevance here. You are completely right about the final issue, and I will reword it immediately. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 01:43, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I removed the statements which are obviously off-topic, as they also cast a negative light on the dominant Muslim group. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:04, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

LaundryPizza03, Wikipedia is not censored. Casting a negative light on any group is never a valid reason to remove content. I already explained my reason for including the statements above, and I do not see how they are off-topic. Again, I am not deliberately trying to offend or speak badly about anyone. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 02:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Because this article is only about the topic of irreligion, we do not need any information about adultery. A brief statement about persecution of religious minorities, such as Christianity in Malaysia, may be acceptable for comparison, but any further details will be off-topic. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Again, our own article on adultery draws a connection between its opposition and religion. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 02:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Although all of VR's points seem reasonable to me, the most concerning one to me by far is the first, that an unsourced claim appeared as fact on the Main Page. We don't have a reliable source that says that "atheists in Malaysia are often threatened with rape and murder". We have a reliable source that says that someone said so once.

In fact, it's not clear to me that even Nurulhuda made as strong a statement as stated on the Main Page. Specifically, she said "Death threats ... are common.", but it's not spelled out to whom. Perhaps she meant to any atheist, but it seems rather more likely to me that she meant only to ex-Muslim atheists. Indeed, perhaps she only meant to those belonging to groups such as hers. Rotcaeroib (talk) 02:41, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I understand your point. I'm afraid I can no longer defend this particular claim, although I would like to know your reasoning for opposing the others. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 03:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• I also removed "While atheism is not technically illegal in the country, non-Muslims, atheist or otherwise, as well as Muslims who do not follow the Sunni tradition, are widely persecuted, due to laws against blasphemy." Where is the source that says all non-Muslims are "widely persecuted" in Malaysia? Or that non-Sunni Muslims are "widely persecuted" in Malaysia? VR _talk 05:29, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Vice regent, it does not feel like you are assuming good faith. You have not directly replied to anything I have said, only deleted content and accused me of being biased, which I assure you I am not. You also removed the lines you had initially complained about. If you object to the statements not being attributed to the person who said them, I will do so, but where would be a more appropriate section to include them? An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 10:30, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
    • I have not "accused me of being biased". My comments are strictly related to the content. And not all verifiable content belongs on wikipedia (see WP:VNOT). So the opinion of one unnamed and unnotable individual, though published in an RS, may not be WP:DUE for this article. Also the claim that non-Muslims are "widely persecuted" in Malaysia is WP:EXCEPTIONAL and would require strong sourcing. Even then, we'd need to be specific about what kind of persecution they are facing, as "widely persecuted" can have a range of meanings.VR _talk 13:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

      I suppose you are right that you have not accused me outright, but your replies and edit summary appeared to imply I have bias against Muslims, which is entirely untrue. In creating this article, I was only trying to expand Wikipedia via reliable sources, which I admit that I may have misinterpreted. I'm not your enemy and I'm not trying to argue. You have made several valid points, and I can accept your edits. I only wish to clarify, once and for all, that we are on the same side and that I am not trying to force my POV on anyone. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 14:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks.VR _talk 17:51, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

You are very welcome. May I remove the tag, or is there anything else you would like changed? An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Let me read this article one more time. Another question: do you think this article should be moved to "Atheism in Malaysia" (similar to Atheism in the United States)? "Irreligion" is a broader topic that includes agnostics and secularism, but this article doesn't cover that.VR _talk 14:35, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

"Atheism in the United States" seems to be an oddity in regards to its title, as typing "Atheism in..." into the search bar shows mostly redirects to other articles, while there are many entitled "Irreligion in...". I only focused on atheism because that was what most sources focused on, but hopefully if any reliable sources begin discussing other forms of irreligion, those can someday be included. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)