Talk:Isaac Bashevis Singer

Is IB Singer a Jewish Writer?

What a question that is. Anyone who has read Singer's stories can answer that question unequivocally. But here at Wikipedia, we do not rely on original research. Before I get into my reasons why Wikipedia should add the word 'Jewish' somewhere on the first line of Singer's Wikipedia article, I need to make one point that is not directly, only tangentially related. There is no question that Judaism is not just a religion, but is very much a nationality. There are myriad ways to prove this, but the one I like is to ask, "Is someone who does not practice Jewish law, whose mother was Jewish, is he/she Jewish?" The answer is: of course. I hope everyone will agree that the following people were/are Jewish: IB Singer, Philip Roth, David Ben Gurion, Golda Meir, Aviv Gefen, Carol King, Sigmund Freud, etc... Why are they all Jewish despite not keeping the Sabbath or keeping Kosher? They are all Jewish because of a thing that in Hebrew is called "Am Israel" which means, "The Nation of Israel." The nationhood of the Jews is what allowed them to come together to create a new state of Jews in the Land of Israel. Even though the above is not really connected to the issue at hand, whether Singer's nationality was Jewish or Polish, I think it is important to point out. That said, I think we can all agree that Singer was at least an ethnic Jew, whatever that means. He was steeped in Jewish culture, and his writings were entirely, exclusively, overwhelming about that culture.

Just in case you need proof, here are some sources which prove his dedication to writing about universal themes through the medium of Jewish experience: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/literature/1978/singer/biographical/; https://www.britannica.com/biography/Isaac-Bashevis-Singer; https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/4242/the-art-of-fiction-no-42-isaac-bashevis-singer; https://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/25/obituaries/i-b-singer-narrator-of-jewish-folkways-dies.html

More important is Wikipedia's own guidelines for biographies. According to the Wikipedia Manual of Style, Singer's ethnicity needs to be included in the first sentence of the Wikipedia article. Here is why, based on this quote from the MOS: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Let's dissect this statement. "In general" means usually, but it does not mean "never be used". Sometimes ethnicity is relevant and should be included if "it is relevant to the subject's notability." That Singer is a "Jewish writer" is the essence of his notability. In addition it might be incorrect to mention his Polish roots since according to the MOS the "place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless (it is) relevant to the subject's notability." Being American, and definitely being Polish, are much less relevant to his life and art.

Finally, according to Oliszydlowski we need a consensus to make the change. I say we already have a consensus: Here are the editors in the last few weeks who have tried to correct the article's first sentence by adding the word Jewish, somewhere, anywhere, in the first, all-important sentence and in the short description as well, but have been prevented from doing so by one editor, who instead of opening up a discussion on the Talk page, threatened to have the long list of good faith editors reported for disruptive editing and even vandalism. Me and Dan Holsinger and UClaudius and Amire80 and 204.9.57.83 and JacobOGold and Dreifoos and 139.137.128.43 and 139.137.128.48

I hope we get a lot of people involved in this very important discussion. Thanks for participating. DaringDonna (talk) 15:59, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I have almost nothing substantial to add. I was about to write something similar, but @DaringDonna already wrote everything I could write better than I would. I can just reiterate the important part: That Singer is a "Jewish writer" is the essence of his notability.

Even though it's clear to anyone who read anything Singer wrote, it's not just a matter of intuition. More importantly, the sources support it, too. The Nobel Prize biography link mentions it prominently. Another Nobel Prize website page also prominently says that the prize is given to him for his impassioned narrative art which, with roots in a Polish-Jewish cultural tradition, brings universal human conditions to life.

This, by the way, also means that it's totally fine, and even important, to also mention that he was Polish and American in the first sentence. Identity, ethnicity, and nationality are complicated. They aren't supposed to be always compressed to one word.

(One tiny and not so important thing I have to add is that "nationality" is a very ambiguous word in English. It can mean "citizenship", "ethnic group", "people having a common origin, tradition, and language", and a bunch of other things. Using such an ambiguous word for policy is a bad idea. "Relevance to the subject's notability" is much more important than a dry definition of nationality. It's harder to define, but nobody said it is supposed to be easy.) Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed.

If anything, the suggested change acknowledges both Singer's Polish and Jewish ethnicities, which cannot be said for the version we keep coming back to. UClaudius (talk) 16:33, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

IB Singer wrote in Yiddish--the language of European Jews, and later English. Ethnically Polish writers did not write in Yiddish--they wrote in Polish. Did IB Singer write any books in Polish? TAPwiki (talk) 19:56, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know, he didn't write in Polish, but it's nevertheless fine to mention that he was Polish-Jewish and not just Jewish. All the sources that @DaringDonna mentioned in the opening post say it, so why not say it in the article, too. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, there is no RfC on this so I suggest creating a template. Secondly, according to Wikipedia, "Jewish" is not a nationality or citizenship. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography, no religious identity or ethnicity is to be mentioned in the lead section. You do not find terms "Jewish-American", "British-Jewish" in other related articles. @TAPwiki: your statement "ethnically Polish writers did not write in Yiddish--they wrote in Polish" is the worst nonsense I have heard in my life and I kindly ask to refrain from putting forward personal POV (point of view). For instance, Adam Mickiewicz also wrote in French and Joseph Conrad in English. As an alternative, one can say in the second sentence of the lead that "Singer drew inspiration from his native Jewish experience" etc. Nevertheless, what you are trying to impose is against Wikipedia's guidelines. Oliszydlowski (talk) 09:02, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

You are misquoting the policy. The policy says: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability".

Are you saying that the fact that Singer is Jewish is not relevant to his notability?

And there are, as a matter of fact, other articles about American Jewish writers that mention their Jewishness in the lead paragraph, e.g. Sholem Asch and Shmuley Boteach. In their cases it's relevant to their notability. The articles about J. D. Salinger and Isaac Asimov don't mention it, and it's fine because it's not so relevant for them, but for Asch, Boteach, and Singer it is. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:25, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

@Amir E. Aharoni: - Shmuel Boteach is a rabbi, hence it is appropriate. Oliszydlowski (talk) 10:10, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Request for comments concerning the addition of the description "Jewish" to the first line in Isaac Bashevis Singer's lead section.

Is it more accurate to describe Singer in the following way (or something similar) and not the way it is written now: Isacc Bashevis Singer...was a Polish-born Jewish-American writer in Yiddish, awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1978. DaringDonna (talk) 17:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes it is more accurate. A more detailed representation of my opinion is above, but I would like to briefly repeat my main idea here, in the actual body of the RfC. (Please forgive me if the formatting or anything else is not according to strict Wikipedia conventions. I have never started an RfC discussion before.) Several editors, including me, believe that according to Wiki guidelines found here, it is more accurate to describe Singer in the following way (or something similar) and not the way it is written now: Isacc Bashevis Singer...was a Polish-born Jewish-American writer in Yiddish, awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1978. Since the profoundly Jewish nature of Singer's writing is an essential part of what makes him notable, I believe this is a more correct rendering, according to this statement from the MOS: Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. DaringDonna (talk) 17:45, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes (invited by the bot) After you put it somewhere in the body of the article (sourced) that he is Jewish. Believe it or not, it is not currently in there, although some would consider it to be an obvious implication of the content. North8000 (talk) 18:37, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Already replied above, and yes, it should be mentioned that he's Jewish, and Polish, and American. All of these are relevant. The MOS says "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". If getting a Nobel Prize is the peak of a notability, and the pages about Singer on the Nobel Prize website mention that he's Jewish, then it's relevant to the subject's notability. This website is just one example and more examples are cited in the section above. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:44, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes: Although Yiddish implies that Singer is Jewish, it is both appropriate to his notability and for the article to edit to Jewish-American. Absolutely. --Whiteguru (talk) 22:14, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Comment: @DaringDonna: @Whiteguru: - Yes to Polish-Jewish writer active in the United States, No to Polish-born Jewish-American. He held both citizenships and wasn't only "Polish-born". He did not leave at a young age and drew inspiration from experiences of Polish Jews. Alternatively, Polish-Jewish-American is acceptable. Oliszydlowski (talk) 10:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

As a relatively minor comment, his stories drew inspiration not only from experiences of Polish Jews. Many of them also drew from experiences of American Jews, who are themselves very diverse, with their only common characteristics being that they live in the U.S. and call themselves Jews.

But my main problem is with not mentioning that he's Jewish at all in the first sentence, so I'm fine with any of these. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Polish-Jewish-American is very ambiguous as to what is nationality and what ethnic background (obviously "Jewish" can only describe religion/ethnicity). Except where usage is very established (Italian-Americans are almost always American citizens with Italian antecedents, rather than dual-citizens or people with one Italian and one American parent, which is a common use away from WP, or Italian-born Americans another common usage), such hybrid terms are very ambiguous. I would suggest finding a clearer way to say this, especially since Polish-American and Jewish-American ordinarily mean, respectively, a US citizen some of whose antecedents came from8 Poland or one who is Jewish. What the trio means would be a mystery to me as a reader. Pincrete (talk) 11:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Polish-Jewish-American is not really ambiguous at all; however, it is quite clunky, and for that reason a better description ought to be sought (it might turn out that there isn't one, though). Firejuggler86 (talk) 23:54, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes - I understand why the manual of style discourages information of religion and ethnicity in the lede, especially since you have examples of what happens when that rule is not enforced: On the Romanian Wikipedia, almost ever single Jewish person is identified as such in the very first line of the lede. But since he is mainly known for his contribution to Yiddish, this is definitely one of those cases where his ethnic identity is relevant to his biography. PraiseVivec (talk) 10:49, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Largely, Yes.(Summoned by bot) The underlying question is should Singer's Polish-Jewishness be mentioned. IMO this is clearly fundamental information which is relevant to his notability as a writer and the character of his writings, ie why there is an article about him, so it would be remiss to omit it. Where I would quibble is I think phrasing would be clearer if the text read something like "was a Polish-born Jewish-American writer. He wrote (mainly in?) Yiddish, and was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1978" … … There seems something unwieldy, and possibly ungrammatical, about making "writer in Yiddish" the final defining noun which follows the three-fold ethnicity and nationality adjectival combination. I'm sure there are many other ways to make the opening less unwieldy, while retaining, possibly adding to, the 'core info' and only offer this as a base suggestion. Pincrete (talk) 11:33, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the grammar of the sentence is a bit awkward and needs some tweaking. I also agree that having three identities is confusing, although I also agree that Singer's Polish background is important to his writing, but not because he was a Polish citizen, but because he was a Polish Jew. Calling Singer Polish-born is accurate, and tells the reader that this is an important part of Singer as a wrtier, since it appears immediately in the sentence. I would like to propose the following for the opening sentence: "Isaac Bashevis Singer (Yiddish: יצחק באַשעװיס זינגער‎; November 11, 1903– July 24, 1991) was a Polish-born Jewish-American writer who wrote exclusively in Yiddish. He was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1978." The rest of the opening is fine with me. But we also need to add that Singer was Jewish in the Life section that follows immediately after the lead. How about this for the first sentence of the Life section: 'Isaac Bashevis Singer was born in 1903 to a Jewish family in Leoncin village near Warsaw..." Now that I look at the rest of the sentence I am wondering why is there this long discussion all about how Warsaw is the capital of Congress Poland in the Russian Empire- etc...? It is enough to say he was born in Leoncin village near Warsaw, full stop. Can that just be edited, or do we need another RfC discussion to remove the geography lesson? DaringDonna (talk) 20:01, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes - was born Jewish and even spoke Yiddish – no brainer - Aboudaqn (talk) 02:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes It is more appropriate input for his notability. Sea Ane (talk) 03:27, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes - Him being Jewish should be mentioned as it was a huge influence on his work as a writer. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 17:04, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

I am ending the discussion since we haven't had any responses in a few days, and the responses we have had are all the same. We all seem to agree that I.B.Singer should be referred to as a Jewish-American writer with mention of his Polish roots given prominence. I will make the edit to the main article, fix up some of the awkward grammar, and add that he comes from a Jewish family (and is therefore Jewish) to the Early life section. I hope that is fine with everyone that participated in this RfC.DaringDonna (talk) 16:18, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Inappopriate canvassing

This article has been a subject of a media piece here which reveals what inappropriate canvassing has taken place here (likely in the section(s) above). It describes how the now-blocked User:IBSLiteraryTrust learned how to game the system: "“The administrators on Wikipedia were not interested in upholding what might be factual information,” IBSLiteraryTrust said in a recent interview. “Their main concern was that people should play by their rules. To me, that kind of game is not a game worth playing.” Then he reconsidered. “It’s not a game worth playing alone,” he said." Then IBSLiteraryTrust "recruited help through Facebook; others came from Twitter. Someone would edit the first line to add the word Jewish... The final decision, based on a consensus... was to identify Singer in his entry’s first sentence as Jewish, not Polish." - that's an obvious violation of WP:CANVASS and WP:TAGTEAM, achieving a "consensus" through recruiting SPA and opinionated voters. Given this, the RfC above has to be considered invalidated and the issue at hand should be restored back to an earlier version, before the disclosed canvassing took place. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:07, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

While this is a serious issue I’m not sure if it’s worth it to revisit the RfC question. While there were obviously canvassed accounts that participated in much edit warring, most of the !voters in the RfC appear to be long time editors. But man, does someone (a few people) owe Oli an apology! Volunteer Marek 16:25, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

21:24, 30 January 2022 (UTC)Topper'sDad (talk)—== Autopilot use of rules ==

Given the long controversy about this article, this seems like a good place to suggest that the use of rules is no substitute for subject-matter knowledge. I read in the public press that one argument for calling I. B. Singer Polish is that there is no Jewish nation. By that logic, noting that there was no nation called Poland during the nineteenth century, we should change the article on Frédéric Chopin to describe him as Prussian. I hope none of us would be willing to make that edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topper'sDad (talk • contribs) 21:22, 30 January 2022 (UTC)