Talk:Israel Railways

Materials

Relevant sources for the article:

• http://www.themarker.com/tmc/article.jhtml?ElementId=skira20110227_1217389
• http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000639927
• http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3546402,00.html
• http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3567132,00.html
• http://www.tapuz.co.il/forums2008/viewmsg.aspx?forumid=394&messageid=165780702
• http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/israel-railways-calls-tenders-for-electric-locomotives.html

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:15, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Use of backslashes

Be'er Sheva Tzafon (North) \ University

Kefar Sava \ Hod HaSharon

Why are backslashes used here? Off hand, it looks like typos, but I don't want to "correct" these without confirmation that these are not deliberate. --Bletch 13:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC) It's because the station is known by both names. So Be'er Sheva North is also Be'er Sheva University.77.138.146.46 (talk) 20:49, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Lines

The text says that there are ten operational lines, but the map shows six, some of which contain branches. This needs to be corrected.--Redaktor 14:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

New line's map

the Israel Railways and hebrew wikipedia update there line's map, since january 2008,3 new line's has opend maby consider to update the map to line's map as for now, additional to the future line's map. the new map is in the hebrew wikipedia or in ISRR website http://www.israrail.org.il/travel/map.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.155.56 (talk) 07:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I will definitely update the line table to match the new timetable, thanks for the convenient link. However, it's no hurry right now because there are still 7 days until the new timetable is activated, AFAIK. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The new timetable alredy acticated.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.155.56 (talk) 18:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Line maps from IR website

Please people, these images aren't fair use and shouldn't even be here. I have left a message on the original uploader's talk page (for the 'future map' image). If it's that important and no one can create a map using the station templates on Wikipedia, I will be glad to create a vector-based map for both present and future. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

This article should be re-writed

this article need a quality attack /: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.158.221 (talk) 14:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

VERY BAD COUNTRY IN THE WORLD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.89.32.95 (talk) 08:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

'Lines' listing fix

After checking Israel Railways official site (both map and schedules), I think the section "Lines" is in need of a rewrite.

Tel Aviv Savidor Central - Modi'in Central ????

The line originates 120 km to the north:

Nahariya - Modi'in Central (The yellow-green line)

And what about Tel Aviv Savidor Central - Beersheba ???

It is actually a subset of the entire Nahariya - Tel Aviv line (the green line). OK, some trains only run part of the line at certain hours of the day, so maybe the section should be listed separately. So then why not be consistant and also separately list the northern subset of the line Tel Aviv - Nahariya? Are we going to seperate out all other partial lines according to train schedules?

BTW, I'm not much of a graphic artist. Can someone fix the accompanying line map to show the line colors as published by Israel Railways? --@Efrat (talk) 07:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the new schedule is a bit different. I'll try to modify the map, but please provide a link to the new schedule and lines map. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 13:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

http://www.rail.co.il/HE/Stations/Map/Pages/RouteMap.aspx

http://www.rail.co.il/HE/DrivePlan/Documents/מדרום%20לצפון%202011.pdf

http://www.rail.co.il/HE/DrivePlan/Documents/מצפון%20לדרום%202011.pdf

--@Efrat (talk) 03:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Strange, I was under the impression that the new TA–Rishon line had been included in the schedule. Maybe I confused it with the next one. Anyway, in light of that, the map I drew 3 years ago: File:IR2008map.png, still seems correct. The article should be rewritten in accordance with the map. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I'm being overly picky or you're color blind. (JUST KIDDING!!!) The lines you drew are correct, but the colors don't match the official website's colors. How important that is, well, that's up for debate. As for the table of operational lines, I will try to correct it within a week, unless you beat me to it. Kind regards, --@Efrat (talk) 12:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, the official colors have no significance. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Just a matter of esthetics. If I were to redo the map to match the colors on Israel Railways' website (though not any time soon), I assume you would not be opposed. --@Efrat (talk) 13:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I created a new map directly based on your map, Yn. Your map was labeled no copyright - release into the public domain. (If I am in error about this, I am prepared to take my punishment!) When I recolored the map, I realized that there was an inconsistency. The Be'er Sheva - Tel Aviv line was not a seperate line according to Israel Railways. (Maybe it once was.) I removed it. I also understand that there are plans to re-route the Be'er Sheva trains via NaTBaG, but who knows when that will happen. In the meantime, I hope you approve of the updated version of your work. Regards, --@Efrat (talk) 16:02, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I adjusted the coloration of your 2011, Yn. You did all the hard work (adding the new Holon, Bat Yam, Rishon line) but the arbitrary colors just rubbed me wrong. lol Hope you approve --@Efrat (talk) 09:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Split proposal

I think this article should be split into Israel Railways and Rail transport in Israel. There are several reasons for this:

• Much of the history of rail transport in Israel (pre-state) is not directly relevant to Israel Railways
• Israel Railways, while still a clear monopoly, is not responsible for everything railway-related anymore, especially railway development and light rail
• Wikipedia conventions, where each country has an article Rail transport in Country
• There is enough info on each topic to warrant a separate article, and in fact in the current format it seems silly to add stuff like the Israel Railways management structure, which would be much more logical for an article just about the company

Opinions are welcome. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:01, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

DO IT --@Efrat (talk) 09:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Non-neutral map

Hertz, what do you mean with "No country names on it." ? The map shows Israel + West bank + Gaza + Golan Heights as being one entity. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Hertz, this:[1] does not change anything. The problem I brought up is still not addressed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree. It's just a base map used for drawing upon, and no claims are made. You can seek consensus for deletion, if you wish, or substitute an equivalent, acceptable map of the historical network. Hertz1888 (talk) 23:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

And what is the name of the entity the map is showing? The claim that is indeed being made is that Israel + West bank + Gaza + Golan Heights is one single entity, and you are fully aware of who holds that position. The map is a clear violation of WP:npov, WP:NOR and WP:verifiability, which are core policies of Wikipedia. So I do not need to seek any outside "consensus" to remove it from the article as no arguments has been presented here to keep it, therefor the consensus based on the arguments is to remove it --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

This is one of those cases that really make me lose faith in the system. We've been trying to make a map that shows all of Israel's railways on a to-scale map for years (literally), and when someone goes ahead and finally makes it, the thing you care about most is that the map possibly shows misleading borders? The map is about the railways, not the borders. I don't think anyone who will be interested in this map will take interest in the borders—we have a lot of political maps of the area which show all the relevant borders and more.

The map improves the encyclopedia in every way, so I am reverting the change. If the issue of borders is that important to you, keep in mind that the map is in SVG and there are similar maps that have all the data you need to draw the correct borders in an application such as Inkscape. I will not oppose any border changes you make (within reason) as long as the countries remain unlabeled. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 15:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes you lose faith in the system is how this falsehood map could be added in the first place and how an admin can support it. The map in its present shape can not be used in Wikipedia because it shows a made up entity. The map does not improve the encyclopedia in every way, it inserts falsehoods in it, showing an entity consisting of Israel + West bank + Gaza + Golan Heights as being one single entity. This is an imagination and falsehood that does not exist in reality and has never existed, and it has no place in any encyclopedia. If you want you can ask who created the map to correct the falsehoods and imaginations in it (or you do it), only after this, it can be re added. Not before. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello, I am the creator of the map in question.

It seems that the problem with the map I made is the issue of certain borders. I tell you, never has a subject been so debated as this one. The reasoning behind my decision is on the file's page and unfortunately hasn't been included here:

Finally, I didn't include the 1949 Boundaries since they were, de jure and de facto, only temporary (they existed for 18 years out of a network that's 92 years old).

I am neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian nationalist, I am not making any "claims". Since this is an anachronistic map, I simply felt that as the 1967 borders only had a real existence for one fifth of the network's lifespan their inclusion would be pointless. In fact it is pretty standard for Palestinian/Israeli maps to just ignore all borders. However, including the Oslo borders would possibly be a good idea (since they actually reflect a political reality).

Supreme Deliciousness, your actions leave little to desire. Despite what you claim, I am not inserting " falsehoods": my uttermost priority was to not include any falsities, and since the 1967 borders are disputed, they were not included. Furthermore, you cry without hindrance "WP:npov", however a quick look at your editing history and talk page archives shows that your actions are far from without controversy, and seem to convey a certain Palestinian penchant. Finally, my voice adding to those of Hertz1888 and Ynhockey, you are now outvoted 3-1 concerning the inclusion of this map. Debate closed.

Mapeh (talk) 18:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

No, its not closed. You write that it is pretty standard for Palestinian/Israeli maps to just ignore all borders. That isnt true, and it was one of the more out there claims I have seen on a Wikipedia talk page, which is really saying something. my uttermost priority was to not include any falsities, and since the 1967 borders are disputed, they were not included. What does that even mean? The 67 boundaries are the 67 boundaries, there isnt anything to dispute there. You can dispute whether or not those should be the final borders, or even those should be the basis for negiotiating the final border, but there is no dispute on what the 67 boundaries are, and the is only a fringe sized minority that disputes what they mean. Even if one were to take the widest possible single territorial unit as the base for this, that being the British Mandate, that wouldnt explain why the Golan Heights is shown with both the Purple Line and the even more temporary 1973 ceasefire line. Your map, despite what I am sure are the best of intentions, does in fact make a political statement by including occupied territory within Israel. You included even territory that Israel doesn't claim (Gaza, the West Bank excepting EJ). You have areas of other states in a different color, clearly distinguishing what is Israel and what isnt. That isnt "neutral", it is the opposite of neutral. You make the article take a specific POV, and an extreme minority POV for that matter, by using that as your map. And then you further the violation by calling the boundaries between Israel and occupied territory not in Israel internal boundaries. I'll look into creating a map that doesnt do that, but in the meantime Ive modified the caption so that isnt adding on to the POV violation of the map itself. Ill note that your base map does not suffer from these deficiencies, meaning you made the conscious decision to remove what made that map usable in this encyclopedia. nableezy - 19:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I find it funny that everyone is assuming that I have included occupied territories in Israel. What says I'm not a Palestinian nationalist showing a "Greater Palestine" POV? The debate on borders is such a long one, and few people are really qualified to debate it; so I'm not going to go further with this. I'm working on a new version, more-npov according to you, and I will upload it in a day or two. I guess that will satisfy all parties? Mapeh (talk) 19:51, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

PS: I must give credit to Supreme Deliciousness for bringing to my attention that I didn't include sources for my map. I have since updated that map's description page accordingly. Mapeh (talk) 19:54, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

What says I'm not a Palestinian nationalist showing a "Greater Palestine" POV? Because the Golan Heights are not in Palestine. nableezy - 21:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

A minor change was all that was needed instead of caption that was already longer than needed. Tried a change (nono on another network) 24.17.206.37 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:31, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

No, that was not all that was needed. nableezy - 03:17, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I have updated the map. Are the Palestinian fanatics happy? Mapeh (talk) 22:16, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Presumably due to a syntax problem, new version in not showing up in article other than by clicking on old version. Hertz1888 (talk) 22:49, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you expect people to treat you with respect? Or would you like me to call you a fanatic? nableezy - 03:17, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Map

Hello,

Do you think that Israeli-Palestinian Railways.svg should show lines under construction/in planning? I can see pros and cons:

• Pro: Including them will give a better overall picture of the network
• Pro: It will make updating the line in the future easier (you just have to change that line's colour to blue)
• Con: It will clutter up the map
• Con: These being future lines, nothing is definite. Including these lines will include information that is likely to become inaccurate in the future as plans are changed

Whether or not I agree with them, I will follow the recommendations of this discussion. So, any other opinions?
Mapeh (talk) 16:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Mapeh,

If you can add the lines under construction, that would be great. Lines under construction are unlikely to be canceled and their route is well-known. However, for lines that are just planned (like the railway to Eilat) should not be included because the route is not certain, even in the few cases when it has been approved.

Cheers, Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

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Update for reconstruction of Jezreel Valley Railway

Press reports indicate completion of reconstruction of the Jezreel Valley Railway, with Israel Railways apparently planning to open that line for revenue service in October 2016. See http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4835917,00.html. Based on that information, the narrative and maps for this webpage will need to be updated once the line enters service.One-Off Contributor (talk) 20:52, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

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Freight

This article only seems to mention passenger lines and services. Do the Israel Railways handle freight traffic, and if so, what sorts of freight traffic are handled and where to and from? How much of their traffic is freight and how much is passenger? 124.168.134.73 (talk) 10:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

There is a bit of information on freight, like in the Performance section. It covers much of what you asked. I think it would be great to add information about IR's main freight customers (there aren't many), but I don't have this information. To answer your question though, most of the freight traffic in Israel goes to/from the ports of Ashdod and Haifa, as well as garbage for disposal in the south of the country. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:53, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

most freight are bulk commodities (like minerals). There are plans to build a rail line to Eilat, Israel's Red Sea port, which would enable a similar role for Israel in bypassing the Suez Canal as the U.S. has in bypassing the Panama Canal but to my knowledge those plans are not anywhere near the top of the priority list. It would also be interesting to know about loading gauges, whether they allow for rolling highway with all types of truck and so on. I assume double-stack rail transport is right out, but then the Dutch Betuweroute was built in such a way as to enable it in the future and maybe there are similar plans in Israel... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:29, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Level crossing accidents

The list of accidents is dominated by accidents at level crossings. I don't think those are particularly notable and I don't think they should be listed here. What do you think? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)