Talk:Israeli Cassini Soldner

PAL-Cassini

"officially called the PAL-Cassini system under the British mandate of Palestine" — I suspect this is the modern name for the system called the "Palestine Grid" from its inception in the 1920s until the end of the mandate. No name except "Palestine Grid" appears on the maps using this system made by the Survey of Palestine. Zero^talk 09:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose to WP:MERGE Palestine grid into Israeli Cassini Soldner.

These two articles are about the same system with both older and newer name. The 1000 was added into the system before it's name was changed (according to the articles themselves. I couldn't get the source). 95.86.117.174 (talk) 20:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

That's why they are distinct. Related but distinct. The relationship between such constructs is best clarified in two articles, not one that will be edited, bit by bit, to completely confuse them. trespassers william (talk) 21:15, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Can you clarify what do you mean by 'that'? They are the same system with a changed name! 95.86.117.174 (talk) 22:28, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree, they are distinct. Huldra (talk) 22:48, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

That= "The 1000 was added into the system before it's name was changed ". trespassers william (talk) 01:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

No case made for merger. Zero^talk 05:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

trespassers william - "The 1000 was added into the system before it's name was changed" means the change was done when the system was still called Palestine Grid thus the change is ONLY in the name. Can any of you explain how they are distnict? 95.86.114.125 (talk) 09:16, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

From Palestine grid article (information enter by Zero at the time of creation about 6 months ago)

After the establishment of the State of Israel, the Palestine grid continued to be used under the name of the Israel Grid or the ICS grid

And from Israeli Cassini Soldner article

Israeli Cassini Soldner (Hebrew: רשת ישראל הישנה‎; ICS) is the old geographic coordinate system for Israel. The name is derived from the Cassini Soldner projection it uses and the fact that it is optimized for Israel. This coordinate system is sometimes also referred as the "Old Israeli Grid" and it was officially called the PAL-Cassini system under the British mandate of Palestine.

@Huldra: As someone who use PAL-grid extensively, can you please shed some light on how are the two distinct? You mentioned some authors use one name and some use the other but you use them both as PAL grid, so I can't see how would they differ. Thanks. 95.86.117.174 (talk) 00:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I think it is a mistake in the Israeli Cassini Soldner-article which cause all this confusion. In the lead it presently says: "This coordinate system is sometimes also referred as the "Old Israeli Grid" " with a "citation needed" mark. I think this is wrong; it is actually Palestine grid‎ which is referred as OIG! Read this from Hadashot Arkheologiyot, Excavations and Surveys in Israel; under "Guide to Conributors": "all map references calculated according to the Old Israel Grid (OIG) should be also recalculated according to the New Israel Grid (NIG), i.e., add 50,000 to the longitude coordinate (calculation relies on a six-digit figure), and 500,000 to the altitude coordinate" ....and this is exactly the difference between Palestine grid, and ITM (=NIG). It looks as if the Israeli Cassini Soldner-numbers never caught on among academics, probably because all the maps used had the old numbering. I cannot see it used anywhere. Huldra (talk) 12:44, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

So... you agree PAL grid, OIG and ICS are the same thing but the question is what should the article be called. Is that right? If not, how does ICS defer? I find it hard to understand from your answer. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.86.117.174 (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I meant to say that: PAL grid and OIG are the same, but not NIG, which I took to be ITM. Actually, we should add Pal grid/OIG to the table in the article, it would could then be like this:

Grid	Easting	Northing
Pal grid (Pal grid/OIG)	172249	131586
ICS (Israeli Cassini Soldner)	172249	1131586
ITM (Israeli Transverse Mercator)	222286	631556
UTM (Universal Transverse Mercator)	711563	518045

(....though Pal grid is typically given with 3 numbers each; 172/131). From Hadashot Arkheologiyot: "add 50,000 to the longitude coordinate (calculation relies on a six-digit figure), and 500,000 to the altitude coordinate" ...that is going between Pal grid/OIG and ITM, except I cannot explain why ITM gives 222286/631556, and not 222249/631586???? If you see reports like this, they follow the instructions from Hadashot Arkheologiyot.... the Israeli Transverse Mercator -article say that ITM is also called "New Israeli Grid"....however, on Wikipedia it is presently calculated differently from the "New Israeli Grid" that Hadashot Arkheologiyot operates with! Huldra (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Huldra.

After looking around it seems you were right about ICS. I assume someone invented the name when ITM was introduced but before that it was called "Israel grid" and then became OIG. According to Gavish, the only academic source so far introduced directly on the matter, the 1000 correction was done by the brits when it was still called Pal grid. This is noted in the article (actually both articles). Do you agree they can be merged? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.86.117.174 (talk) 16:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Two things; Firstly, I would like to understand why, in the example, ITM gives 222286/631556, and not 222249/631586. It has been like that since it started in 2007, put there by User:Gordonofcartoon...(I would like to ask him, but read his user-page...). It *might* be that the above table should be:

Grid	Easting	Northing
Pal grid (Pal grid/OIG)	172286	131556
ICS (Israeli Cassini Soldner)	172286	1131556
ITM (Israeli Transverse Mercator)	222286	631556
UTM (Universal Transverse Mercator)	711563	518045

....I simply do not know. (I virtually never use those last tree numbers, as I only use it for villages & towns). It seems that the term "Israeli grid" has been used basically about *any* grid in use in Israel. The Pal grid article should be expanded, or make clearer what terms it has been used under. I don´t see anything wrong in having 3 different articles about 3 different numberings; but, again, I *really* hope that someone could explain to me why ITM gives 222286/631556, and not 222249/631586 in the article -example? Huldra (talk) 19:12, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

There is a delta (Δ) between those two systems because they are inherently different (hebrew). unlike Pal grid vs old Israel grid which are the very same with 1000 value added during brits time as Gavish says. 95.86.117.174 (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Sources

What do sources giving the grid-numbers actually call them? (Note: I have mostly used it to identify villages, so I only need 3 numbers (down to 1 km)) Checking:

• Barag, 1979 (see User:Huldra/Barag1283): just say “map reference”. (It might be that Israel Exploration Journal defines which units writers should use?)

• Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, 1977, (see User:Huldra/HA), Under Explanation of code numbers, 5) Position in the Palestine grid. …If the Levant grid is used (for northern parts of the investigated area), “L” is added.

• Frankel, Rafael (1988) gives the Pal ref. numbers, but he only calls it “map reference”
• Karmon, 1960 (see User:Huldra/Karmon) gives the Pal ref. numbers, but he only calls it “Map. ref.”
• Khalidi, 1992: he uses PGR (Palestine grid), and write (on p. xxi) that the grid references were taken from the Palestine Index Gazetteer
• Petersen, 2001, just gives the Pal grid numbers, without calling them that. He (mostly) also gives longitude and latitude numbers.

• Pringle, 1997,
• Pringle, 1993, just gives the Pal grid numbers, without calling them anything. (I just checked this book, I assume it is the same with the other Pringle-books?)
• Pringle, 1998,
• Pringle, 2007,
• Pringle, 2009,

Huldra (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2015 (UTC)