Talk:Jain monasticism/Archive 1

Archive 1

Jain Ascetic Redirection

Please add redirection of Jain Ascetic to this page.

REDIRECT:Jain ascetics Nimit 13:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Refs

There is a Singh 2007 in Notes but no full bibliographical information is given for this work in References. If it's Singh & Mishra 2007, the short citations should be amended. Dundas 2002 is given both a long citation and short citation in Notes; consider moving the full citation to the References section. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:35, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jain monasticism/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 02:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Nice article, sorry it had to wait so long. But this needs copyediting, according to my comments below. I go section-wise in my comments.

Lead

• ...and aryika for female monastics. Śvētāmbaras use the word sadhvis for female monastics To remove the repetition of "female ascetics", you can write "Digambaras use the word muṇi for male monastics. While Digambaras use the name aryika for female monastics, Śvētāmbaras refer to them as sadhvis."
• Another ancient term, samaṇa "striver", is used mainly by the Sthānakavāsī. Term for what?
• The monastic practises You mean "practices"?
• ...of two major sects Digambara and Śvētāmbara... You should introduce them as two different sects of Jainism at the very beginning, before their first mention, not here.
• Please expand the lead so that it covers all aspects of the article.

Terminology

• Another ancient term, samaṇa "striver", is used mainly by the Sthānakavāsī. Please do not leave this unsourced.

History

• Historians strongly believe Historians such as?
• United Jain Sangha (Community) Do we need upper case letters here?
• lord Mahaivira "l" should be in capital, mind the spelling. Why is this not linked at first mention in the main text (after the lead)?
• After that, The Jain community Punctuation errors
• Digambara and Śvētāmbara "The" Digambara and "the" Svetambara.
• Link Aryika. This is the first mention in the main body.
• Throughout the article Digambara and Śvētāmbara should consistently be either in italics or normal.
• Digambaras use the word muṇi for male monastics and aryika for female monastics. Śvētāmbaras use the word sadhvis for female monastics. This part ought to be included in the main body along with citations. Do not add citations to the lead.

Digambara monasticism

• What is Morpichhi?
• Acharya Kundakunda is the most revered acharya of present dussama (read as Dukhma) kaal of present Avasarpani era (descending half time cycle as per Jain cosmology). I could not understand this very well. The sentence should be simplified and "the" needs to be appropriately used. Define acharya. And according to whom is he the most revered? This may look like original research.
• 28 vows Bold letters are generally not used in the article except in the lead, according to the MoS.
• 28 vows (vrats) It should be the other way round. You add English translations to explain foreign words. So say "28 vrats (vows)".
• Every Digambara monk is required to follow the 28 vows (vrats) compulsory. Source? You use sources in the table, but what about those rows which do not have sources mentioned?
• Every Digambara monk is required to follow the 28 vows (vrats) compulsory. "It is compulsory for every Digambara monk to..."
• To walk carefully after viewing land equal to 4 hands According to MoS numbers less than or equal to ten should be in words not digits.
• To accept food from a sravaka if it is free from 46 faults Sravaka is explained later but this must be linked and explained here, at first mention. Remove the linking and explanation in the next mentions. Should this be in italics?
• What is an example of "the" 46 faults?
• Strict control on five senses "the" five
• disposing off off-->of
• To pay obeisances to siddhas Define siddhas
• Giving up attachment to the body and meditate on soul meditating
• To consume food & water "And" is more appropriate
• To pluck hair on the head and face "The" face
• In Digambara tradition, an ascetic ... of muni (or sadhu). Source?
• All of the Digambar monastics Digambar"a" Same in the next sentence
• What is choka? Why is it capitalized?
• they invite Monks Why is it not "m"onk?
• Digambar monks and ailak eat standing up and in their hands. Better write "eat from their hands in standing position".
• Kshullak eat in one utensil "From", not "in".
• Nuns eat in their hand or in utensil "From" their hand or "from a" utensil

Śvētāmbara monasticism

• No source for the first para?
• tied on their face on-->to
• Ogho or Rajoharan Why capitalize?
• Mahavratas (great vows) Don't repeat the explanation from the previous section
• observe them in strictest sense "The" strictest
• Apart from the five major vow (like Ahimsa, Asteya, Brahmacharya, etc.) Vow"s". Why repeat the vows? They are in the previous section.
• Five Carefulnesses "The" Five
• The foreign language terms like "Managupti" should all be italicised
• While disposing of bodily waste matter "matter" is redundant

Initiation

• "Diksha" should be in italics
• To become an ascetic, a rite is performed which is called diksha (initiation). Diksha provides a formal change in a person from the status of householder to an ascetic. No source?
• Svetambara spelling is different in places.
• involves the taking out of a procession Simply say "involves a procession"
• "'Ogho' (a woollen broom)" needs italics, no explanation needed, no upper case
• The svetambara terapanthi sect Is no capitalization or italics needed for "terapanthi"?
• for a written permission from the parents of the person before formally initiating them Seems the parents and not the child is being initiated! Simply say his/her instead of them as you do earlier.
• Both male (monk) and female (nun) Don't we know the definitions of nun and monk by now? Why are they being linked so late? Link the first mention.
• Unlike, male monks female disciples --> Unlike male monks, female disciples Only the males can be monks so why not just monks? Should female disciples be replaced by nuns?
• Both male (monk) and female (nun) monasticism is equally ... nun following seven pratimas (spiritual vows). No source?
• Śrāvaka (lay householder) Don't explain
• Kshullak should not be explained. Should it be in italics? Pratima explained twice here.
• No bold for "Brahmacharini".
• Check the table if we need italics anywhere. Pronunciations can be highlighted (for instance in Śrāvaka)

Rules of conduct

• adaptations from older text What does "older text" mean? Should it be text"s"?
• Mahavira should be linked only at first mention
• Few examples "Few" or "A few"? The meaning depends on this.
• digambara sect Capital
• guiding householders on how to uplift their souls Not to repeat uplift their souls, write "guiding householders on the same"
• perform the daily worship, Remove "the"
• any food which was prepared for them was-->is
• Jain ascetics do not cook their food, ... collect it from various houses. Source?
• Just as cows graze the top part of grass, moving from place to place, taking a little at one place and a little at another, Sounds good but not encyclopedic. It should be omitted.
• in the same way Jain ascetics do not take all the food from one house. They collect it from various houses. Combine the sentences
• the food from one house "one"-->"a"
• water consumption, etc "Etc" does not look good and can be removed
• and ascetics do not want to be the part of any violence due to their needs I think it is clearer to say " and ascetics do not want to cause such violence due to their needs"
• This way they can know that accepting food would not make the householders have to cook again Rephrase this line like "Hence they are assured that the householders do not have to cook again after the donation."
• When they travel from one place to another, At the start of a section do not say "They", identify "them"
• When they travel from one place to another, whatever the distance, they always walk barefoot Simply say "When they travel from one place to another they always walk barefoot irrespective of the distance."
• any vehicle, such as a bullock cart, car, boat, ship or plane Too many examples for a common term. You could have added examples only if vehicle here meant something other than the typical meaning
• Whether the weather is cold or hot; whether the road is stony or thorny; whether it is the burning sand of a desert or a burning road, they do not wear any footwear at any time, moving about on bare feet all their life. Not encyclopedic and also repeats the idea in the first line. Merge this with the first line, which should now look like "When they travel from one place to another they always walk barefoot irrespective of the distance and the local conditions."
• The reason for not wearing shoes Footwear sounds better
• the bugs or insects Remove "the"
• While going places, they preach the religion (Dharma), and provide proper spiritual guidance to people. A more grammatically correct and pleasant read would be "On the way to their destination, they preach dharma (code of conduct) [Note to the editor - dharma is not exactly religion here, I believe, it rather means the correct code of conduct] and guide people along the spiritual path".
• few days in any one in-->at
• but may also "they" may
• attachment for material things for-->to
• No source for first para of Vihar?
• What is Paryushan?
• But twice a year or at least once a year Simply say "But twice or at least once a year"
• they pluck off their hairs or they get the hairs plucked by others --> they pluck off their hair or they get them plucked by others.
• Keshlochan or Loch Italics?
• This way they are not dependent on others to carry out their needs. --> Hence they do not have to depend on others for their needs
• The practice of dress Could we say "dress code"?
• No source for Clothing?
• Pangarani (Uttariya Vastra) Italics?

Monastic ranks

• This section does not seems to agree with the table under Initiation. Do we need the table at all if the text explains everything?
• are assigned to Remove "to"
• Muni need not be explained. As I said explain Acharya earlier and no more here
• The Terapanthi sect of the Svetambara Properly written and linked here but not at first mention
• a new rank Why is it new? When was it introduced?
• Jain monks become immersed in activities "Engrossed sounds better than "immersed"
• Proceeding on the path of spiritual endeavor, when they reach a higher level of attainment, their spiritual elders, for the preservation of the four-fold Jain Sangh, confer upon them some special titles This looks better at the start of the section
• Is acharya to be capitalized or not? Should be same throughout the text
• in-depth study and a thorough exploration What is the difference?
• What is Agam? I see it is explained later but it must be said at first mention. Why is it linked later?
• attain mastery of them of-->over
• One must also study the various languages of the surrounding territory You mean regional languages? The meaning is not so clear
• Panyas and Gani Not mentioned in the list given.
• To attain the status of Ganipad one should have a knowledge of the Bhagawati Sutra and to attain the Panyas-pad Remove hyphen, Italics needed, where are these two ranks in the list?
• The main concept of renunciation is same in both Svetambar and Digambar sects. But there are some differences in what they keep and how they take Gochari/Ahar. This is not properly written and not in the appropriate section
• You can do better to add the explanations of terms like "Acharya" to the list itself, it would be time-saving and interesting

Chaturmas

• This section should be merged with the Vihar section

As you can see we need a lot of copyediting. Go carefully through all the issues. Good luck! Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 02:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: I saw just now that you have been working on the issues. Good. I have struck out the resolved issues. Please work on the copyedit issues first, and let me know if you want me to do something there. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 16:42, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Urgent updates

@Capankajsmilyo: Hi. You have indeed worked hard to improve the article. However, in the course of reviewing this article I have come across some major issues and this might lead to failing the article unless they are responded to and resolved soon.

• Copyediting is an urgent requirement here; more things need to be repaired than those I have already pointed out. This article should be referred to the GOCE. The article could be failed for now, submitted to the GOCE and then renominated.
• Copyright violation is highly suspected. Earwig's copyvio detector shows that a large number of instances of paraphrasing from [[1]]. The whole article must be rewritten to avoid the copyvio.
• Verifiability is poor, as many claims are unsourced.

Please respond to this soon so that we can discuss what to do about the article. @जैन: You may also help here. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 12:16, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

I have just checked, and the copyvio issues are real and serious. The problematic material was added from this cited source by User:Bhavin169 on February 20, 2012, as can be seen here. (The jainworld site is copyright 2011, so I seriously doubt they copied us.) All of the material has to be removed (over 5500 of 8000 bytes still remain), and I have just done so; the article is significantly shorter, and far from a GA level given the sourcing issues and the holes left by the information that's no longer there. I'll also be pinging Nikkimaria to check my work, and see whether anything else needs to be done, including checking Bhavin169's other edits—fortunately only a couple of dozen—to see if other material has been copied into other Wikipedia articles. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:24, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

That is sad for the article. I should have checked for copyvio earlier. Capankajsmilyo, the nominator, should do something about this soon. Given such a serious issue, I believe the nominator should respond or at least leave a note on what he plans for the article within a week from now. If we get no response, I shall have to fail this article. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 04:40, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I have already requested GOCE for copy edit. Will add sources for verification asap. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 04:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Capankajsmilyo Please do not panic. I am trying to help with the copyedit, help from the GOCE would also be appreciated. Meanwhile, please try to add more credible material to the article. The article is not going to be failed till we are working on improving it. Good luck! Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 04:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

You should also be aware of the procedures for copying from one article to another - only a couple sentences here, but still worth proper attribution. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:13, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Review

A lot of changes have been made in the article, and it is substantially different from what it was. Can you please have a look now @Sainsf -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 13:53, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: Thanks for the update. I will take a look later today, a bit busy at the moment. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 13:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Final comments: Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 18:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• In Chaturmas, what does lay Jain mean?
• Combine a few paras of Rules of conduct, the section looks choppy.
• Sources for these?

• In addition to the five Great Vows and five regulations, Śvētāmbara ascetics observe three restraints.
• The Three Restraints (gupti) are restraint of mind (managupti), speech (vacanagupti) and body (kayagupti).
• To become an ascetic, a rite known as diksha is performed. Diksha marks a formal change from householder to an ascetic.
• Nuns and Śvētāmbara male monks wear white clothing with few seams.

Copyvio concerns

Sainsf, Capankajsmilyo, I discovered this morning that this nomination had disappeared without being either passed or failed, and in tracking down what happened, discovered that Capankajsmilyo is the center of a major and very serious copyvio investigation—serious enough that a final warning has been issued. Nominations cannot be simply removed—I've explained that to Ms Sarah Welch, who removed it—but given that Capankajsmilyo has, as a first priority, about a hundred articles to go through and check for copyvios, I don't see how this review can proceed at the present time. So, rather than restoring the nomination, I put a "FailedGA" template in its place. I thought it was the best action to take, and the article can be renominated after all the copyvio issues in those articles have been dealt with, along with the remaining issues raised above.

Sainsf, this ultimately is your review, so if you believe it should be continued under the circumstances, you can certainly restore the GA nominee template to the article's talk page and continue. I apologize in advance if you feel I have not proceeded as you would have wanted. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:39, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: I came to know of this AN discussion just now. Thanks for informing me. Yes, this nomination should have been failed, and I am afraid we will have to check for paraphrasing in the two I recently promoted, Digambara and Mahavira. I will have no objection if these two are delisted. I never imagined I could come across something as serious as this, we reviewers presume some good faith and understanding of the policies when nominators come to GAN. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 16:02, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

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